Plains of Eidolon: Changing the meta?

[dan.io.wal]

So one thing I've noticed is that the current meta revolves around major burst fire dps weapons such as shotguns, and frames that don't count as much on mobility, such as Rhino. Does anyone else feel that the Plains of Eidolon will bring certain weapons that don't fit in the enclosed space maps that we currently have into full usability? I feel that frames like Volt, Nezha, and especially Zephyr will become more used due to this, because of their insane mobility. Titania as well. Weapons like single shot rifles, sniper rifles, and other high accuracy weapons will do very well. I can't wait to get more use out of my daikyu and vulkar wraith <3 what other frames and weapons do you think will do well with plains of eidolon? :D I'm so excited!!!

[Chipputer]

Obviously anything that is more useful in an open area will see more use. I do find it hilarious that you mention the Daikyu as being more useful as though ridiculous Gas builds aren't already a thing on it.

[Jangkrik]

16 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Obviously anything that is more useful in an open area will see more use. I do find it hilarious that you mention the Daikyu as being more useful as though ridiculous Gas builds aren't already a thing on it.

Daikyu already has the fastest arrow flight speed in the bow cathegory (I haven't compared it to crossbow though), hence it will have an easier time to hit longer ranged enemies compared to other bows and long range engagement should be a thing in PoE.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Jangkrik

[Endless_Destruction]

I doubt the meta will change.

No matter how awesome Eidolon will undoubtedly be, it is just one area. In order for a meta to actually change, some massive, worthwhile, different factor will have to make it into mainstream gameplay. Warframe, at least in the immediate future after PoE drops, will still be an instance based game. Instances are king; the meta stays.

In order for a meta change to actually occur, people have to be spending enough time in Eidolon alone for them to change their gameplay habits and strategy, and actually come back for more regularly, and that's just not going to happen, because at the end of the day, a 9km^2 area is still only 9 km^2, and once people explore it fully, grind out all the combinations of new melee weapons for mastery and collect everything unique Eidolon has, it will be left behind.

Really, the only thing that could change the meta related to Eidolon would be (first and most importantly) constantly changing rewards that every player at every level always needs, which would ensure players keep coming back, (and then, only after the previous condition is met) fundamentally different combat. The meta is the way it is, because enemies work the way they do. To elaborate, massive overwhelming continuous or burst damage, room clearing nukes, scaling damage mods (particularly in melee) and corrosive status are the meta because the enemies we face necessitate those tactics with their endless exponential scaling and scaling-independent cheese. If in Eidolon we face the same copy-paste enemies, just surrounded by plains and rivers instead of ship corridors, we will use the same tools. Nothing will change.

Yes, alternative styles of play to the meta will see far more use, but for the meta to actually shift would require open regions to become an integral part of the game, one that no one will get tired of any time soon. Eidolon looks beautiful, interesting, and like a breath of fresh, non-Corpus recycled air, but it is also limited. Instances will always be variable. There is always a reason to load into an instance. Eventually, no one will have any reason to go back to Eidolon. It will go the same way as the awesome Kuva Fortress tileset-looks great, but give me a reason to go there, and stay there.

Beyond roleplay, current non-meta loadouts won't see that much more use because the enemies we face are the same. Same enemies mean same tools. Even with the open areas, a sniper won't beat a meta-tier weapon for sheer get-the-job-done-ness.

[Cazzzz]

20 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I do find it hilarious that you mention the Daikyu

Good thing I've got a +Crit chance and +zoom riven for it. Ooh baby, am I gonna have a good time.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

oh my god guys! is PoE going to make snipers relevant again!?   YUSSSSSSSS!

[Xion]

Changing the meta? Probably not.

Creating a new meta exclusive to the new area? That's more likely.

Also, Rhino actually does have insane mobility if you build him for range, but that doesn't matter since most of our mobility will probably come from the deployable Archwings, especially Itzal with its instant Blink.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Xionyde134

[Cazzzz]

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

some massive, worthwhile, different factor will have to make it into mainstream gameplay

Did you mean the whole concept of open world?

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

fundamentally different combat

Haven't seen Archwing getting any attention for a hot minute, and having it to fight land-oriented enemies is pretty 'different' (Not to mention the sentient things they teased).

 

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

grind out all the combinations of new melee weapons for mastery and collect everything unique Eidolon has, it will be left behind.

Wait, you play this game? And say this?? I'm confused, and I can't be the only one finding this comment ironic. (Cuz who DOESN'T still play on the Grineer ships? Corpus ships?)

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

just surrounded by plains and rivers instead of ship corridors, we will use the same tools

Ill give you this one.

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

current non-meta loadouts won't see that much more use

Lmao I'm one of the only people running my Vectis Prime for feel, not damage. No Argon scope, no Riven, but you bet your money I've got Depleted Reload. There's no way I'm the only one not enslaved by meta, and that is the stuff I take to sorties. We don't have much more of a 'meta' choice than sorties (which is another problem in itself), and if I don't need a shotgun or Corrosive Projection to clear the Grineer sortie, I don't need much else than that. 

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

a sniper won't beat a meta-tier weapon for sheer get-the-job-done-ness

Missed this before my last bit, but try some punch-through. Took my DPS through the roof. Oh yeah, and a good aim for headshots helps too.

I'll give you a few points, but this stuff is pretty ground-breaking, at least in the idea of 'Warframe'. Meta is bound to shift. Will it completely change, no way (at least with the low spread on that Tigris Prime), but expecting no change is a bit absurd. (Hell, we don't even know what's on the other side of the Plains. Who knows what they've got in store. And if it's ACTUALLY just copy-paste, this game will be as dead as ever.)

EDIT: No hard feelings intended, I'm kinda just bored and am finding something to talk about tbh

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Cazzzz

[Rioma]

Unless enemies somehow get stronger or more accurate at long range. Like shooting you out of the air while you're doing flips idk why i would go through the trouble of using longer range weapons to take out camps. Zephyr will see more use for sure. I imagine having her 3 turned on and just "flying" into a camp. No need to snipe at them really. Or you could teleport kill with ash or loki at long ranges just to close distance.

Currently good weapons don't become bad. They said that PoE will be available to new players during the day. Meaning that day time will probably be star chart level trash mobs. No reason to snipe them other than you want to for fun.

Spoiler

Ivara + Navigator + Zenistar disc or Glaive RIP enemy camps 

 

[artemisfortune]

Since when was Rhino the Meta? Am I back in 2014?

Edited July 26, 2017 by JSharpie

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

16 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Since when was Rhino the Meta? Am I back in 2014?

hahaha "2014 called it wants it rhino meta back"

remember when everyone voted excalibur the most op frame?

[Skaleek]

I'm not sure how its gonna go. They will probably have to tweak the spawning mechanics. I'm fairly sure if an enemy is like 200m+ away from you it despawns and respawns near you. I'm interested to see if we will actually be able to see/render an enemy that may be 300m+ away.

[Yargami]

   My hope is that PoE will make DE realize that sniper scope sway has no place in a game like this. Either way though, me and my Vectis Prime are going to enjoy wandering around sniping Grineer scouts from farther away than is practical. I'm also looking forward to seeing how the snipers mesh with the Archwing gameplay. Elytron nuke sniping + Vectis Prime? Yes please.

[Endless_Destruction]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:01 AM, Cazzzz said:

Did you mean the whole concept of open world?

When expanded on, definitely, but the question was about Plains of Eidolon specifically. I don't think that a single example of open world will do the job.

Haven't seen Archwing getting any attention for a hot minute, and having it to fight land-oriented enemies is pretty 'different' (Not to mention the sentient things they teased).

I completely forgot about archwing vs ground troops, was thinking about archwing as a tool for transportation, nothing more. However, generally speaking, the mods we have available for conventional weapons make them much, much more powerful than archwing weapons, which would make them more attractive for sentient fighting. Power beats feel for most players, and it is "most players" that define the meta.

Wait, you play this game? And say this?? I'm confused, and I can't be the only one finding this comment ironic. (Cuz who DOESN'T still play on the Grineer ships? Corpus ships?)

My fault, I should have clarified. Eidolon will be left behind because it is static. Instances on the other hand are always going to have rewards that we need, and are the centerpiece of the game, the main means by which we earn rewards. People still play on the tilesets that they do because those tilesets offer rewards that they need. If the grineer galleon tileset happened to switch to only common resources with low level enemies, the exact same thing would happen to that tileset. I might point you to the Kuva Fortress tileset, which apart from a few stance mods offers nothing that we need or can't get somewhere else more easily. As it is, most tilesets, utilized on different planets, offer a variety of enemy difficulty and loot drops. Eidolon on the other hand, as the only thing of its kind, staying the same every time you load into it, eventually won't be a place to go, unless it turns out to be an exceptionally good way of farming something. Which is possible.

Ill give you this one.

Lmao I'm one of the only people running my Vectis Prime for feel, not damage. No Argon scope, no Riven, but you bet your money I've got Depleted Reload. There's no way I'm the only one not enslaved by meta, and that is the stuff I take to sorties. We don't have much more of a 'meta' choice than sorties (which is another problem in itself), and if I don't need a shotgun or Corrosive Projection to clear the Grineer sortie, I don't need much else than that. 

Sure. I definitely agree that a lot of people choose the weapons they want whenever they want without considering the meta, but when push comes to shove, most people will want the tools that give them the most power for equal or less effort. And that determines the meta. Remember, the question was if PoE would shift the meta, and the answer is no. I'm only saying that while everyone will continue to run what they please, because enemies still function the way they do, the same meta tools will continue to be most effective, and thus most people will gravitate towards them. The meta will stay constant.

Missed this before my last bit, but try some punch-through. Took my DPS through the roof. Oh yeah, and a good aim for headshots helps too.

In a game where damage sources are plentiful, weapons that kill x enemies per second is what is important, not DPS. Damage at the highest value the game can handle on a sniper doesn't mean that much, because without punch through (I'm aware you mentioned it, please keep reading :)) you are only killing one enemy at a time. Punch through helps a ton, but it isn't unlimited, it is a set value, and only works for every thing in a bullet's path. That's still only one source of damage-the bullet. Shotguns have massive damage and status capability in their pellet cone, High RoF weapons can spit out enough single sources it doesn't matter, and explosives' single sources apply to everything in a given radius. I'm not saying snipers aren't powerful, I'm saying that they are still poor candidates for a meta weapon, and PoE won't change that.

I'll give you a few points, but this stuff is pretty ground-breaking, at least in the idea of 'Warframe'. Meta is bound to shift. Will it completely change, no way (at least with the low spread on that Tigris Prime), but expecting no change is a bit absurd. (Hell, we don't even know what's on the other side of the Plains. Who knows what they've got in store. And if it's ACTUALLY just copy-paste, this game will be as dead as ever.)

Sure, I agree it is groundbreaking, and the meta is bound to shift. Just not now, with PoE. Even if the other thing that comes out at night has actually intelligent AI and interesting mechanics, it will only mean that the optimal tool for that fight will change. The meta AS A WHOLE will stay constant. A single set of enemies in a single area during a select time does not define the meta.

EDIT: No hard feelings intended, I'm kinda just bored and am finding something to talk about tbh

I understand completely, I feel the same way. Thanks for being respectful :)

 

 

[CantIHaveAShow]

I think snipers will see a bit usage boost at first, but fall off once everyone realizes everything we have already been doing still works.

Unless Its actually hard to just run up to the camps (given the 360 degrees of approachable angles i highly doubt it) whats gonna stop us from just bullet jump&roll/Archwing our way in to the camp to then murder everyone?

 

[BetaNoire]

32 minutes ago, Twilightsparkill said:

I think snipers will see a bit usage boost at first, but fall off once everyone realizes everything we have already been doing still works.

Unless Its actually hard to just run up to the camps (given the 360 degrees of approachable angles i highly doubt it) whats gonna stop us from just bullet jump&roll/Archwing our way in to the camp to then murder everyone?

 

Unless sniping is more fun? 

[Yargami]

2 hours ago, Twilightsparkill said:

I think snipers will see a bit usage boost at first, but fall off once everyone realizes everything we have already been doing still works.

Unless Its actually hard to just run up to the camps (given the 360 degrees of approachable angles i highly doubt it) whats gonna stop us from just bullet jump&roll/Archwing our way in to the camp to then murder everyone?

 

   I suspect that most of the daytime enemies are going to be killable even if you don't use the best meta gun out there, so I will be choosing equipment based on whether I want to use it. Not that I dislike Archwing (the idea of finally being able to do an aerial assault on an outpost or scouting party is great), but I'm a bit of a sniper at heart. For that matter, I still use snipers even in current gameplay, which is even less friendly for sniping. What I'm hoping to see is Archwing meshing with sniping so that I won't have to choose between them.

 

1 hour ago, BetaNoire said:

Unless sniping is more fun? 

   Yay, a fellow sniper!

Edited July 28, 2017 by Yargami

[(XBOX)BlastingFern134]

I just wanna run into a camp and activate Mesa's 4th ability.

[MisterUltimate]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:00 PM, Xionyde134 said:

Changing the meta? Probably not.

Creating a new meta exclusive to the new area? That's more likely.

 

Quoted for truth.

On 7/25/2017 at 11:31 PM, JSharpie said:

Since when was Rhino the Meta? Am I back in 2014?

Quoted for lulz.