[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[SlayerXV]

3 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I feel like Undertow should still be a puddle that you can grab enemies into. But the enemies should be visible (waist high/splashing around) and it should be a time based ability that you can press again and leave behind. It also should drag enemies with you if you use "tidal surge". This gives Hydroid great CC potential. You walk into a room, Undertow+ Tidal Surge to grab any enemies you can, press the ability again to leave the puddle so you can help kill those enemies with your team.

So you want to change hydroid completely? It also eliminates the silent factor.

and for better understanding rn it looks to me like Vauban's Bastille? Hold enemies in place? And if you wanna gather together that's vortex?

[Breathren]

The problems many people had with Hydroid was unreliable CC and Damage, everything he is capable of could be done by other warframes better in every way. Take for instance Nidus, he does both CC and Damage 10x better than what Hydroid could ever be capable of, and do with half as much energy usage! Oberon has an auto aim 1st ability that does % enemy health as damage, Hydroid's barrage isn't even guaranteed to hit anything and does piss poor damage. I did not make this post to trash DE or Hydroid, but as it stands the rework only made him more fluid to play which is important, yet he is still unviable in most situations and is a easily replaced frame in your arsenal. I'm pretty sure Vauban's Tesla Grenades can output more damage than Barrage. Now what can we fix to make Hydroid fun to play? His 1st and 4th ability need to do less CC and more damage. Both should do % of enemy health as damage, and tentacles should just knock down enemies or pick them up and throw them, none of this holding them up in the air for a minute making them harder to shoot. His 2 is pretty much his only ability I'd leave alone, but I'd like to see something like Nidus's one where it has energy steal as Hydroid can be a very energy hungry caster. His 3 needs a lot of work so it doesn't just encourage afk play. Make it drain more energy, standing still for more then a few seconds forces you out of it. Make it move extremely fast with no energy drain per distance, just a flat drain. Make the speed on par with volt or nezha, nothing feels more bad &#! than zipping around the battlefield as you become one with water and popping up behind enemies to kill them. In order to suck a enemy under you have to click on them, it'll drain energy when you do this.

 

I really want Hydroid to be a very viable damage frame with a little CC. CC is not exactly what people think of when they imagine a space pirate, what comes to mind the most is a bad &#! running around fast shooting down everyone in his sight.

[Chopx]

2 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

So I am not trying 2 I have been agreeing with other players and did agreeing I am staying objective about all really just check the pages. but it is time to try and put it all together and try to get some agreement on things , sorry he wants his idea only, that is way I want to read it.

Ive just been seeing this globe idea alot. And im sorry to say but it's not very innovative. I think it would work well if thats any consolation.

[leadwolf1]

3 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I feel like Undertow should still be a puddle that you can grab enemies into. But the enemies should be visible (waist high/splashing around) and it should be a time based ability that you can press again and leave behind. It also should drag enemies with you if you use "tidal surge". This gives Hydroid great CC potential. You walk into a room, Undertow+ Tidal Surge to grab any enemies you can, press the ability again to leave the puddle so you can help kill those enemies with your team.

I will agree it is less of an ability change and would work, how ever keep in mind you are asking for another chains  or sleep type which is in the game or immobilize and I am not trying to fight or argue, just your idea mimics holding the enemy and we have other frame that do the same thing in different way , they are mag and magnetize  , harrow and his chains, equnox and sleep , ivara and sleep, Vauban and vortex and bastille. ok so just really be objective. again your idea would work but is not unique.

[Chopx]

4 minutes ago, SlayerXV said:

So you want to change hydroid completely? It also eliminates the silent factor.

and for better understanding rn it looks to me like Vauban's Bastille? Hold enemies in place? And if you wanna gather together that's vortex?

Well yea to be fair it is kinda like nidus' larva and Vauban's bastille. But atleast it doesnt look like it. You as the player grabs the enemy. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Chopx

[SlayerXV]

1 minute ago, Chopx said:

Well yea to be fair it is kinda like nidus' larva and Vauban's bastille. But atleast it doesnt look like it.

Wouldn't be a shame for a Warframe that controls water as well as a Kraken to not express it?

[(PSN)kyotic77]

I'm a huge Hydroid player!!! when I say I run him as my main... he runs as MY MAIN!!  and I'm very..... VERY  upset about this Rework.  he needs some type of damage scaling!  you can't have a Warframe that doesn't do damage when their true nature was to kill things!!!  maybe if we had a damage scaling with how many enemies we have in  hydroids undertow that would help him out a lot.  it seems at the synergies all-around undertow, at least give us a reward for all of the slow-moving,  no firing and all the energy we have to use as a reward for all the enemies that were able to capture in unertow and add damage scaling within undertow by damage per second or into tentacles form... He needs to hit harder... Even if that means we have to work for it!! 

[Chopx]

1 minute ago, SlayerXV said:

Wouldn't be a shame for a Warframe that controls water as well as a Kraken to not express it?

The rework already has the synergy between tentacle swarm and undertow. So now you can use that for more dmg + being able to leave the puddle and not have to stay in there. It eliminates alot of the problems. energy consumption, slow game play. And it synergizes with the rest of the team. They can see the mobs. Undertow right now is kind like Ash Blade Storm before the rework.

[SlayerXV]

Just now, Chopx said:

Ash Blade Storm before the rework.

how.?

[Chopx]

Just now, SlayerXV said:

how.?

Blade Storm used to make the mobs you were blade storming invincible to the rest of the team until it was over. Or something like that.

[SlayerXV]

Just now, Chopx said:

Blade Storm used to make the mobs you were blade storming invincible to the rest of the team until it was over. Or something like that.

oh i see that, imagine if allies could down and shoot people in the undertow

[Chopx]

And it suffers from the same problems. you hit blade storm and sit back and watch it do all the work. Sit in a puddle etc etc. Same problems.

[ThiagoSampaio]

6 hours ago, leadwolf1 said:

I have read your post and I would have to agree with some. the first ability still needs work but I do not want it to become a water world on fire. for what its worth this ability doe not kill in high end too quickly at all and with out the knock down mod leave you open to be one shot. I rather have everyone be knocked down with no room for an enemy to be standing  as well as the mod with this ability strips armor at the moment I would like to see it knock down strip armor and shield maybe.

For the second , personally I do not like the sharks  sea monsters thing, for a new mobility skill I would like to see hydroid turn into  water allowing for all damage to pass right through him as he moves similar to limbo, keep in mind just like limbo the only thing he would be able to do besides not die is pick a player up and abilities  , no hacking no inserting into console on mobile defense nothing. Laser would still trip for when light hits water I refracts . Or just leave it and do some modifications on driving it and cost, to go in and out with same button I agree with I think it should be if you are not using your aim to move it then you should just be a puddle , however no enenies can fall in you become a wave as you move and steer it the more you move and steer , the more damage you do and the faster you kill in the wave at an energy cost. while as a wave you can do the damage.

the third I would change it to where it is a dome of water and moves around with hydroid, the same as I discussed with FOXFX seen above.

for the forth  If you had the passive changed to extra drops from enemies caught in the tentacles  and they do not have to kill the enemy then I would say make it so once the tentacles grab an enemy they stop flailing around and constrict to allow other team mate to be able to kill them once killed the whip around seeking another enemy. Now this is not all my idea others have posted this. with that the passive would have to be so players can still use it for farming as well. Even make it move in the direction as hydroid is going clearing the way for him and team mates have the kraken stay piercing  looking and grabbing , when hydroid stops the kraken stops as if he is commanding the beast from the ocean depts.

 

After reading several pages of this topic I agree with what you're talking about, it's that I imagine Hydroid as a killer CC, you know? But now I realize that
  The developers do not have to create new skills for him, only improvement (except for Undertow, which would look much better with this idea of bubble of water, and a kraken that lives up to its name)

[Chopx]

So again [DE] :D I hope you read this! It's a quick fix but it has a huge impact on Hydroids gameplay. It makes undertow synergize with both his 2 and 4 which are already implemented. But by making it a CC ability you speed up gameplay, fix his energy dependence, and his team synergy. Once he has a good CC then you also help his survivability and then you dont need to change barrage. Even though it probably should be changed ;)

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[Trentiel]

19 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I feel like Undertow should still be a puddle that you can grab enemies into. But the enemies should be visible (waist high/splashing around) and it should be a time based ability that you can press again and leave behind. It also should drag enemies with you if you use "tidal surge". This gives Hydroid great CC potential. You walk into a room, Undertow+ Tidal Surge to grab any enemies you can, press the ability again to leave the puddle so you can help kill those enemies with your team.

Yes yes, we are all on board with Tidal Surge bringing along enemies trapped in Undertow. That's been nearly universal opinion throughout this thread.

But, while I am a personally advocating for Hydroid's Undertow becoming a full 3d object to suspend enemies in, I think that if the issue is that allies need to be able to do damage to drowning enemies... there is a compromise. If the flat 2d puddle design was kept, DE could instead create silhouettes of the enemies on the puddles surface, for allies to aim at. No need for them to be above water when a 2d shadow would do. This way allies could pump damage into the puddle, without changing the ability much.

[Chopx]

3 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

Yes yes, we are all on board with Tidal Surge bringing along enemies trapped in Undertow. That's been nearly universal opinion throughout this thread.

But, while I am a personally advocating for Hydroid's Undertow becoming a full 3d object to suspend enemies in, I think that if the issue is that allies need to be able to do damage to drowning enemies... there is a compromise. If the flat 2d puddle design was kept, DE could instead create silhouettes of the enemies on the puddles surface, for allies to aim at. No need for them to be above water when a 2d shadow would do. This way allies could pump damage into the puddle, without changing the ability much.

Thats fine too. As long as the rest of teh team can see them. I'd rather be able to get headshots but whatever. The main point is being able to leave the puddle and it still be active. Thats the main objective here. No one wants to sit in a puddle.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[Chopx]

9 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

Yes yes, we are all on board with Tidal Surge bringing along enemies trapped in Undertow. That's been nearly universal opinion throughout this thread.

But, while I am a personally advocating for Hydroid's Undertow becoming a full 3d object to suspend enemies in, I think that if the issue is that allies need to be able to do damage to drowning enemies... there is a compromise. If the flat 2d puddle design was kept, DE could instead create silhouettes of the enemies on the puddles surface, for allies to aim at. No need for them to be above water when a 2d shadow would do. This way allies could pump damage into the puddle, without changing the ability much.

Man I dont understand how you just pointed out both mechanics that really arent as important as the main one. Being able to leave the puddle and it "staying on the ground CCing the mobs for the rest of the duration" 

[leadwolf1]

13 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Man I dont understand how you just pointed out both mechanics that really arent as important as the main one. Being able to leave the puddle and it "staying on the ground CCing the mobs for the rest of the duration" 

it is because that player does not feel it matters if hydroid is able to do anything, if your idea was to go through I would want hydroid to be able to leave it and continue so he is  doing the mission and not left behind. if you read most posts it is more important that they can kill the enemy in the pool or puddle.

Edited August 14, 2017 by leadwolf1
to add more text for explanation

[Chopx]

7 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

it is because that player does not feel it matters if hydroid is able to do anything, if your idea was to go through I would want hydroid to be able to leave it and continue so he is  doing the mission and not left behind. if you read most posts it is more important that they can kill the enemy in the pool or puddle.

So what is it you want to do in undertow? Just sit in there and spam all your abilities until it dies?

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[Chopx]

I think is more along the lines of what ppl in the community want. Thx SilentDeathReaper27 for going through this thread and writing this up
 

hydroid passive.

on kill summons a tentacle max 10.

this is something the comunity wanted changed and i talked to a few people on a lot of difrent sites this is a passive people are ok with that should be easy to implement.

hydroids barrage ability.

when cast from undertow all shots of barrage hit undertow to kill enemiess trapped in undertow.

hydroids tidal surge ability.

all this ability needs is to increase in size with range mods.

And possibly  be able to jump cancel it.

hydroids undertow ability.

this one needs the most work but it is all simple changes.

1. enemies trapped in undertow are trapped even after moving i.e. Tidal Surge.

2. make undertow a castable duration based ability.

3. after casting undertow you can leave it and the undertow should stay for the duration.

4. while in undertow hydroid should get a damage buff on all abilities.

5. when hydroid leaves the undertow he should get a armor buff.

6. make enemies visible within undertow

basically hydroid could go from a low range dps frame to a long range hard CC tank with the use of undertow.

hydroids tentacle swarm ability.

1. enemies killed by tentacles have a chance to drop energy.

2. enemies hit by tentacles are knocked down instead of grabbed.

3. optional if you want to see enemys flying DE make the dead bodies ragdoll when hit with tentacles.

the goal of this was to be easy for DE to implement and fit the theam of hydroid DE has but to also make hydroid more loved by the community.

optional dash ability.

when hydroid dashes he becomes  a water like version  of himself  becomein knock  down immune  and possibly status  immune for a brief  time.

down sides to hydroid.

energy costs.

abilities casted from undertow have less CC range.

you can take a way the stelth undertow gives hydroid.

enemies with high CC. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[Trentiel]

15 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Thats fine too. As long as the rest of teh team can see them. I'd rather be able to get headshots but whatever. The main point is being able to leave the puddle and it still be active. Thats the main objective here. No one wants to sit in a puddle.

I would actually like to sit in a puddle, but... that's because I don't sit in it too long. It's like a temporary stealth & CC ability, I love jumping in and out of it. While I personally think it could use more features, it's his most unique power and I'd like to see it have more versatility.

By using an actual 3d bubble, less globe and more water dome... it wouldn't even have to be that tall. It would mean players who want to shoot at enemies trapped in it, could do fire at range. And wouldn't need to be right on top of your puddle looking down. However, I'm not suggesting his bubble be another shield. We don't need more abilities that outright block line of sight / allied bullet fire. I really dislike those. Especially when they're mobile, like Hydroid's would be.

Considering that I'm not advocating for yet another bullet blocking shield ability, but rather... a personal invisibiliy / manual-targetting CC bubble. What do you think of my proposal here? http://i.imgur.com/KVgMA2W.png

Personally, the most egregious thing about Hydroid is that half his CC moves are Anti-Cooperative. Undertow and Tentacle Swarm need to be rethought a bit, so they don't horde enemies away from other players. And Frankly, Barrage & Tentacle Swarm are just plain redundant.

[SlayerXV]

16 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

I would actually like to sit in a puddle, but... that's because I don't sit in it too long. It's like a temporary stealth & CC ability, I love jumping in and out of it. While I personally think it could use more features, it's his most unique power and I'd like to see it have more versatility.

By using an actual 3d bubble, less globe and more water dome... it wouldn't even have to be that tall. It would mean players who want to shoot at enemies trapped in it, could do fire at range. And wouldn't need to be right on top of your puddle looking down. However, I'm not suggesting his bubble be another shield. We don't need more abilities that outright block line of sight / allied bullet fire. I really dislike those. Especially when they're mobile, like Hydroid's would be.

Considering that I'm not advocating for yet another bullet blocking shield ability, but rather... a personal invisibiliy / manual-targetting CC bubble. What do you think of my proposal here? http://i.imgur.com/KVgMA2W.png

Personally, the most egregious thing about Hydroid is that half his CC moves are Anti-Cooperative. Undertow and Tentacle Swarm need to be rethought a bit, so they don't horde enemies away from other players. And Frankly, Barrage & Tentacle Swarm are just plain redundant.

yo mate read what i wrote.

Also I didn't really get it whats with the portable bubble?

[leadwolf1]

53 minutes ago, Chopx said:

So what is it you want to do in undertow? Just sit in there and spam all your abilities until it dies?

it seems to be the players do not  care move or not, if you are asking me I already stated I like the idea if they chose your way to be able to leave it and fight and let it end on its own

 

[FoxFX]

6 hours ago, Trentiel said:

I integrated your idea into this little sketch I did to illustrate my ideal Hydroid ability set.

 

A good representation of what I have described. This is good and I support the effort you have put into it.

[FoxFX]

I have been thinking about turning Tentacle Swarm into an instant damage attack something akin to Oberon's Reckoning.

 

Only if you hold the ability, Tentacle Swarm will grab more and more enemy farther away. But there is a catch.

 

Tentacle Swarm will only Slam the enemies once the ability is let go or reaches max duration/enemies captured. It then will deal burst damage that scales based on the time the ability is held.

Edited August 14, 2017 by FoxFX