[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[FoxFX]

UNDERTOW AS A "WATER DOME" IDEA

 

PROS OF CURRENT UNDERTOW

• It allows Hydroid to pull enemies into Undertow and the damage it can do racks up the longer enemies stay in it
• Current Undertow allows Hydroid to use his other abilities for unique interaction

CONS OF CURRENT UNDERTOW

• It prevents allies from attacking enemies caught in Undertow creating the same (or in some cases a worse) gameplay of Limbo. Players would like to attack the enemies in Undertow
• Undertow has been said to slow down the fast-pace of the game

 

SUGGESTION FOR UNDERTOW: CHANGING UNDERTOW'S SHAPE

The core suggestion presented here for Undertow is to "change the shape of Undertow." Undertow will no longer be a puddle, but this:

Undertow: Water Dome

 

• Hydroid creates a dome of water preventing damage from enemy attacks outside of the dome. Enemies that wander into the dome can either be slowed down or floating in the dome  and are drowning causing Finisher Damage which increases the longer the enemy is inside of the Dome.
• Allies can attack enemies inside the Water Dome from the inside and out
• Hydroid will be able to attack normally with the Dome active using
• Using specific abilities with Undertow (Water Dome variant) will do the following
  • Tempest Barrage: changes how Tempest Barrage fires from above and instead the Barrages fire from the Water Dome with increased Damage and accuracy
  • Tidal Surge: The Water Dome will follow the path of Tidal Surge
  • Tentacle Swarm: Tentacles the enter the Water Dome disappear placing any captured enemy inside. While Tentacle Swarm is active, Undertow's Water Dome damage per second increases.
• Auras from Eximus Enemies inside of the Undertow Dome are negated
• Every XXXX damage registered inside the Water Dome will drain an extra X Energy.
• [Debatable] Holding Melee (Melee Charge Attacks) will be the input to have Undertow Create a Tentacle to drag in enemies in the Dome

 

UPSIDE FOR THIS CHANGE OF UNDERTOW

• Maintains most of the function of the original Undertow only that it will make Hydroid and the enemies inside it visible for attacks
• Allies can slip into the dome and out attacking enemies from the inside or outside of the dome
• The availability of being able to attack enemies in the Water Dome can speed up the gameplay with Hydroid in teams
• This idea also has the possibility of casting the Dome on the target of the reticle
• Hydroid himself can attack enemies inside of the Dome with this change to fasten the gameplay pace

 

DOWNSIDE FOR THIS CHANGE OF UNDERTOW

• Suggestion might call for the removal of the stealth feature of Puddle Undertow
• Idea will not appeal to the players that wish to keep Undertow as a puddle

 

QUESTIONABLE CHANGES

• How slow should enemies be in the Undertow Water Dome?
• How slow should Hydroid be in this form? Increase Energy Drain for faster speed?
• Should bullets slow down in the Water Dome of Undertow?

Edited August 13, 2017 by FoxFX

[FoxFX]

Had to make this thread for a suggestion about Undertow:

 

Now the core question is how we need to deal with Tentacle Swarm. We all say that its damage and CC slows down the gameplay with Hydroid. Any thoughts on having Tentacle Swarm rank up damage the same way Undertow does?

[Xolgys]

so...there is "release the kraken" now...how about a "feed the kraken" too ?

when casting "tentacle swam" in puddle mode it instantly deals lots of % health damage to the drowned enemies (this doesnt summon any tentacles, basically an alternate ability whilst in puddle form where the kraken chomps on enemies within puddle water). For each drowned enemy killed (generally) "tentacle swarm"s damage is increased by xx% of all targets maximum health who died in the drowned state. The kraken slowly consumes a certain amount of this "stored" health per second so players have to keep the kills going with puddle to keep the kraken rly fed and furious.

[TheGodofWiFi]

Hydroid doesn't need simple QoL changes. He needs a full overhaul. I really wanted this revisit to be something special. Something that would attract non-Hydroid mains to the frame. Unfortunately it has not gone that way at all. We still have the same powers, the same RNG based 1st and 4th. You guys seem to have been trying to make Undertow actually worth something in the game by adding a lot of synergy with the other powers. While it definitely means Undertow isn't as boring as before, it still is very much a game-breaker in a video game where everything is fast paced. It's still very much an annoying camping ability which slows down the game flow to a sudden halt. This ability should have been removed altogether. 

Hydrokinesis allows you to do more than turn into a puddle. Just browsing it online I found that you can do quite a few things with water manipulation, such as controlling teh fluids inside someones body, manipulating the fluid in someones eyes so they become blind, making yourself invulnerable by simply turning your body into water (not a puddle). Look at this list of the capabilities of water based powers:

Those are just some of the capabilities. While Hydroid may have some of these techniques such as Drowning, Healing Water, Hydro combat, they are all very very basic. Hydroid has quite a lot of potential to be a very good frame. It just seems like you guys are intent on not exploring other possible powers that can replace the currently boring ones he has, such as Undertow and Tidal Surge.

[FoxFX]

10 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Hydroid doesn't need simple QoL changes. He needs a full overhaul. I really wanted this revisit to be something special. Something that would attract non-Hydroid mains to the frame. Unfortunately it has not gone that way at all. We still have the same powers, the same RNG based 1st and 4th. You guys seem to have been trying to make Undertow actually worth something in the game by adding a lot of synergy with the other powers. While it definitely means Undertow isn't as boring as before, it still is very much a game-breaker in a video game where everything is fast paced. It's still very much an annoying camping ability which slows down the game flow to a sudden halt. This ability should have been removed altogether. 

Hydrokinesis allows you to do more than turn into a puddle. Just browsing it online I found that you can do quite a few things with water manipulation, such as controlling teh fluids inside someones body, manipulating the fluid in someones eyes so they become blind, making yourself invulnerable by simply turning your body into water (not a puddle). Look at this list of the capabilities of water based powers:

Those are just some of the capabilities. While Hydroid may have some of these techniques such as Drowning, Healing Water, Hydro combat, they are all very very basic. Hydroid has quite a lot of potential to be a very good frame. It just seems like you guys are intent on not exploring other possible powers that can replace the currently boring ones he has, such as Undertow and Tidal Surge.

What are your thoughts on the Water Dome idea I presented?

 

Also, since there is the possibility of Water interacting with all the Elemental Damages, do you think Hydroid's abilities should change with the Element of Hydroid's current equipment? Something like how Inaros's [Elemental Sandstorm] Augment does with Sandstorm.

Edited August 13, 2017 by FoxFX

[dbt120]

Abilities:

-Tempest barrage projectiles should have the same drowning effect as undertow on enemies for a short duration. The water drops should stick for a short time on enemies and give some CC possiblities.

-Tidalsurge should also be changed. Hydroid should be able to send the wave off and not move with it. This way hydroid gains another CC tool.

-Undertow, alot of player dislike the ability because they cant do anything but wait for the enemies to die. Being able to use abilities doesnt make this wait more exciting. Nyx 4 ability had the same problem but was fixed with an augment. So my idea for undertow is that it has its own duration. you can cast it and it drowns enemies when they step on it. Hydroid however can freely walk around but also stand on the puddle to gain invulnurability but it drains his energy in exchange. This way a hydroid player can actually do something with his weapons. Also he could be able to use the puddle as CC if he could cast more than one puddle at a time. 

-Tentacle swarm is a great CC ability. However i thought that it would great if the Kraken could actually eat some of the enemies that he grabs nearby and finish them regardless of HP. He should do this occasionally and not all the time so that he has some use.

 

Conclusion:

At the moment i dont know what DE thinks his role is. I personnaly think they see him as a damager which he simply isnt. Hydroid has a kit that is suited as a CC frame and with these changes he could be a viable CC/tank hybrid frame.

[leadwolf1]

1 hour ago, FoxFX said:

What are your thoughts on the Water Dome idea I presented?

 

Also, since there is the possibility of Water interacting with all the Elemental Damages, do you think Hydroid's abilities should change with the Element of Hydroid's current equipment? Something like how Inaros's [Elemental Sandstorm] Augment does with Sandstorm.

I still say you have some explanations: for instance does he cast 4 like the frost globes is there a state of invulnerability as to use when it comes to Kayla defame laser barrage, or does it work still like the puddle 1 and done , and if so hydroid can shut it off at will. and bring it back, yes. I still think your idea is good but if it was an aura field of water like a nullifier dome it would be more mobile and you may have your teammates using just like one when faced with a crowd of enemies. but again your idea .

[leadwolf1]

1 hour ago, FoxFX said:

Had to make this thread for a suggestion about Undertow:

 

Now the core question is how we need to deal with Tentacle Swarm. We all say that its damage and CC slows down the gameplay with Hydroid. Any thoughts on having Tentacle Swarm rank up damage the same way Undertow does?

OK tentacle swarm needs to remain, for those who say it does not then you never used it to farm pilfering swarm does work and a lot of player use this. Unless you are going to give the passive that any enemies caught in  hydroids tentacle will drop additional loot and do not have to be killed by it. that would then be fine. you can now change it to hold the enemies constricting them with scaling damage and in this giving other player a still shot to kill enemies. BUT Again  this is used by a lot of players. OH I would just like to add ! thing about this forum, DE should take the names of every player in this forum and all must either purchase or farm for the hydroid prime  before moving on to the plain , since they all want to add their ideas and are saying that they use hydroid and know what is best for his game play. A Saying do not design clothes that you would not wear , get it.

[FoxFX]

37 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

I still say you have some explanations: for instance does he cast 4 like the frost globes is there a state of invulnerability as to use when it comes to Kayla defame laser barrage, or does it work still like the puddle 1 and done , and if so hydroid can shut it off at will. and bring it back, yes. I still think your idea is good but if it was an aura field of water like a nullifier dome it would be more mobile and you may have your teammates using just like one when faced with a crowd of enemies. but again your idea .

Details are in the Link but for the short version

• It works like a mobile Frost Globe but enemies that enter it can either be slower in the water dome or float inside it.
• The globe will block enemy attacks from the outside, but for each XXXX damage absorbed, it will drain energy
• I wouldn't want to add a state of Invulnerability like Frost Globe in this one
• This Dome moves with Hydroid (determining how fast Hydroid moves with it is up to players to decide)

So think of this ability like, and I try to refrain using references from cartoons but:

 

Something akin to this but smaller.

[Aleximoose]

These are just 2 ideas i have for Hydroids rework 1 being based around his current rework and the second being a total rework.

Idea 1

Passive: should be changed so it targets 1 enemy for a certian range of the cast and upon killing said enemy with a weapon it has a guaranteed drop of credits, depending on the level the high the more credits (makes sense because pirate frame like the booty)

Tempest Barrage: I have no problem with this ability or than how random the spread is, if it took into account the enemies location upon cast and landed where they were / used to be standing that would be perfect.

Tidal Surge: Good movement ability have no problem with it.

Under Tow: I feel undertow as an ability just slows down gameplay, Id rather it be replaced with a more offensive ability, for example maybe hydroid greats a globe of water around 1 enemy and depending on the range and power strength its pulls enemies in and drowns them or he could choose a single target fill them up with Water until they burst damaging enemies around them.

Tenticle swarm: The Kraken should be its own entity like Atlas' rumblers It could follow Hydroid and cast tenticle swarm on a much smaller scale Eating enemies and smacking them off of walls maybe reduce the amount of times it can cast it to like 3 times a minute just to balance it out.

Idea 2

Now this would be a Pretty extreme rework for him but bare with me, what if Hydroids entire kit was built arounf powering up the Kraken working a little like nidus with his stacks.

Passive: Stacks of watery goodness but set into 3 different categories 1 for health 2 for shield and 3 for strength, Each Stack category can go up to 100, sounds confusing but bare with me.

Ability 1: Summon a group of tenticles which damage enemies over a set duration this will build up the first set of stacks for each enemy grabbed (the health stack) (effected by range strength and duration mods). Basically Tentical swarm but with a different look and purpose.

Ability 2: Surround a single enemy with a bubble of water trapping any ememy around it and drowning them, just like the first ability building a stack for each enemy trapped (the shield stack) (effected by range, strength and duration)

Ability 3: Create a puddle in and area which on cast drags enemies into it damageing them and building the third stack for each enemy pulled in (the Strength stack) (effected by range, strength and duration)

Ability 4: Summon the Kraken draining all 3 stacks pools you built up and applying them to your big Eldritch friend and let him go to town on the enemy.

The beauty of this kit is he becomes very cc based and can deal good damage but the whole idea is to make enemies imoblie and make them easier picking for your squad all the while building stacks to get to the end goal of a Strong long armed tentacly friend.

Look forward to seeing what else can be done to our pirate Frame and if that means waiting another few months to get a great finished product so be it.

[tnccs215]

On 11/08/2017 at 9:03 PM, Azamagon said:

Then we are on the same page :)

That, and making the CC of Tentacle Swarm more reliable (like, strangle-crushing enemies, rather than flail them around), then the two abilities are very distinct.

What do you say of my previous feedback (quoted below)? Only thing I'd add is to maybe also make one or two of his augments baseline (Tidal Impunity and Curative Undertow, mainly), as playing Hydroid without any augments feels... rather underwhelming?

  On 11/08/2017 at 1:56 AM, Azamagonsaid:

Alright, tested him out a fair bit now.

Overall, it's a very good rework as it has added some neat mechanics and fun synergies, but I still feel he needs plenty of polishing.

Here are the problems I see with him, along with some proposals to solve these issues:

Tempest Barrage
Problems:
1) Considering the synergy between this and Undertow (capable of hitting enemies in the puddle), one would expect Tempest Barrage to actually... you know... deal some noticeable damage? It's a BARRAGE after all.
2) The chargeup makes it stronger, but also even MORE inaccurate (since the landing area gets bigger, but not the explosions). So the chargeup is kind of useless, imo.

Suggested solutions:
1) Make it have scalable damage of some form. It could take primary or secondary mods into account. It could work with enemy levels (a la Smite). Anything really, just so it actually hurts enemies.
2) Charging up the ability should also increase the size of the explosions, not just the landing area.

Tidal Surge
Problems:
1) While it works quite well as a "push enemies to this spot" kind of ability, I feel it's still kind of lacking. Some more utility would be nice

Suggested solutions:
1) How about making all enemies struck add to the melee combo meter? That'd go well with his very frontline-esque playstyle. Also, reducing its energycost to 25 would be nice too (it's not worth 50 energy, no matter how you look at it).

Undertow
I like grabbing enemies with it, and I love that you actually went through with the ability to use other abilities inside of it. The ability to roll out of it is also INCREDIBLY nice. So good, that some of its synergies feel less useful...

Problems:
1) Its new movement is heavily hampered by energycosts (mainly if you try to move inside it) as is the short-distance Tidal Surge. Rolling out of it and reusing Undertow is generally a better move.
2) Casting Tempest Barrage over Undertow (with the intent of hurting the enemies inside with it) is absolutely pointless, since it barely hits ANYTHING inside (and not to mention, Tempest Barrage deals negligible damage, but that's already covered)
3) It's still kind of trolly towards teammates (Eximus and all that considered)

Suggested solutions:
1) Lower the movement's energy cost. At least by half?
2) Make Tempest Barrage have auto-aim towards the pool while Undertow is active, for as long as there are alive enemies caught inside the pool.
3) Allow allies to shoot at a pool, with their damage split among all caught enemies, and let Undertow disable all Eximus auras of the enemies caught inside the pool.

Tentacle Swarm
Problems:
1) It still flails enemies around, making aim very difficult for yourself and allies.
2) Of all four abilities, this one doesn't have the same Undertow-centralized synergy as all the others do: Undertow keeps enemies in place, Tidal Surge lets you move or collect enemies into a good Undertow, Tempest Barrage lets you hit enemies inside the Undertow. But then you have Tentacle Swarm which just flails around, helping very little with anything at all.

Suggested solutions:
1) Once a tentacle hits an enemy, it could wrap around the enemy and strangle-crush it, keeping it still. This steadying of enemies would also go well with Tempest Barrage's new charge mechanics, letting you hit enemies somewhat more reliably.
2) Let Tentacle Swarm spawn OUTSIDE of the Undertow, rather than inside of it (and even more so if you charge it). That way, it can grab enemies your Undertow might've missed. And, due to its change #1 (keeping enemies still), if you wanna get the Tentacle-grabbed enemy into your Undertow, just "fire" at it (to pull it inside).

Passive
Problems:
1) It doesn't fit his kit. To be honest, it simply just stinks.

Suggested solutions:
1) Give him a new passive. Something that caters to his casting side perhaps, considering his energy-intensity.

With all these changes, you'd have a niche for each ability:
Tempest Barrage - Main damage source
Tidal Surge - Mobility and groupcollection
Undertow - Ability centralizer, hiding spot, Tempest Barrage accuracy helper
Tentacle Swarm - Main CC, general aimhelper

How you could play, generally;
Hide in Undertow and move around with Tidal Surge (before or after the Undertow). Cast Tentacle Swarm to keep enemies around you in place. Pull them in with Undertow's grabbing mechanic. Toss Tempest Barrage on 'em all for massive nukeage. this

Apologies for the quote formating, on the phone at the moment. 

1)I quite aprove the idea of fusing one of his conservatives augments with the base ability, and I'm most inclined towards Tidal Impunity: status cleansing  and immunity might be an extremely good and rare capability, however it is also extremely... "small", not worth taking an entire mod slot. Curative undertow would no doubt make him an at least confortable support frame in organized squads, however judging by the power of base undertow, a buff to it really is not too necessary, at least in my opinion. 

2) Tempest Barrage:

    2.1) I personally think either one of the scaling solutions is good, despite each bringing different benefits and downsides. Making its damage scaling according to primary/secondary mods is an interesting idea, specially since it allows the power to grow with the weapons, making mod-progression for non-end game players serve as an additional layer of frame power-progression. It would also make Tempest Barrage eligible to weapon-buffing powers, which increases Hydroid's squad synergy immensely. Additionally, it would add status capabilities to the power, opening up a lot of possible builds.

However, it would impose some downsides. First, it will probably demand a complete re-coding of the ability - I heavily doubt it is currently coded as a weapon, as Artemis Bow, Dec Pixia, Exalted blade and so are - for obvious reasons. Second, it will also restrain weapon choice (to explosive weapons) without offering a true substitute. And last, while it will allow Tempest Barrage to completely shred low level enemies and maybe even be useful at higher levels, it is inevitably a non-scaling ability, which means that it will both hit a level at which it stops being effective, and its  usage will trivialize low levels even more.

Adding enemy health based damage might extremely front faced and simple, but that simplicity isn't obligatorily a bad thing, and it would ensure that it scaled indefinitely without trivializing low levels. 

That said, status capabilities in Tempest Barrage... God that would be wonderful. 

    2.2)I fully agree with that: with charging up taking both more time and energy, it makes no sense for it to be arguably worse than simply casting it twice -  though,  I'm not actually sure the charge up trully increases the target area. I think I need to make more tests. 

3) Tidal Surge

   I wanna start this with a proposition of mine: Tidal Surge should not stop you during (de)activation. Seriously. It has no purpose at all and serves only to make tidal surge usage feel cumbersome. You should be able to transition into it without having to stop walking, just as you should start walking right away while the animation finishes if you are pressing the corresponding key. I think they should do what they did to Magnetize: relay the activation animation to the top half of the frame's body.

    3.1)reducing its energy cost makes perfect sense - an ability that does arguably less than Slash Dash should not cost the double. That said, 

    3.2)I honestly don't think making it add to the combo counter is a good change. Not because it isn't relevant in general, but because Hydroid, at least as DE sees him, is not very melee oriented. That addition wouldn't improve is projected playstyle in anyway, shape or form. Frankly, if there is a change I really think is necessary, it's to make enemies not rag doll like hell ahead of you. It kinda defeats the purpose of using Tidal Surge to group up enemies to use undertow or Tentacle Swarm. 

4) Tentacle Swarm

    4.1) As much as I think that holding enemies still will rob it somewhat of its uniqueness, and will make the power a bit too similar to Nezha's ultimate... I can't deny the fact that it will be a thousand fold more useful than what it currently is - and judging how poorly it performs in the damage department as enemy level goes up, while still being his best CC... Yeah, it most definitely could be changed into not flaying enemies around. 

    4.2) Indeed, casting Tentacle Swarm while under Undertow is arguably less beneficial than casting it outside of it... However, one can argue it serves both as a balancing measure and as a paradigm shifter, focusing more on localized defense than generalized CC. Tentacle swarm spawning inside undertow ends up not being problematic exactly due to the mad flail tentacles currently feature, so I think that yes, if tentacles are to hold enemies, they should spawn outside. 

    4.3)Another issue I see with Tentacle Swarm and Undertow is that, despite being arguably defense and area lock down abilities, they are rather useless against anything capable of ranged attacks - which pretty much includes the smashing majority of enemies. As such, I honestly think that making enemies held by tentacle swarm susceptible to friendly fire would vastly improve both Hydroid's area lock down capabilities, and the synergy between Undertow and Tentacle Swarm: by making Tentacle swarm spawn in a neat circle as it does, Undertow effectively creates a living shield around its center, made of tentacle-held enemies. It would also further differentiate Tentacle Swarm from other General CC ultimates. 

5) Passive

    5.1) It's impossible to think his passive is good as is. It is literally a terrible reash of his ultimate. Just, no. 

   5.2) Weirdly enough, I seem to be the only one having little issues with energy. It most likely stems from the fact his powers seem designed in such a way that you might as well just go for max efficiency (I mean, the benefits of power strength are as limited as his damage capabilities, and putting too much duration will make your Tidal Surge a bit too good) but... If changed in accordance to your ideas, and specially if tweaked according to my criticism, that wouldn't be held true for much longer. As such, yes, perhaps making him gain X energy per enemy affected by his abilities would be a good passive - call it revitalization or something. 

All in all, I like your ideas, and the concepts behind them, but I think some added flavor wouldn't hurt - specially in terms of area protection and lock down, with Tentacle Swarm. 

[DeathTheLegendary1]

3 hours ago, Mudfam said:

IMO Hydroid needed a massive overhaul of his abilities, that's what I expected. He just about works for a very campy playstyle I guess, but that's something most players do not enjoy. I don't think many people's idea of fun is being a puddle on the floor and watching tentacles do no damage.

The rework should have focused on actually powerful abilities that also fit with the game's high mobility gameplay. Perhaps a liquid form that actually promotes mobility rather than hinders it, giving damage resistance, speed, passing under doors, anything really.

Tidal surge or tentacle swarm could disarm opponents or jam weapons, open enemies to finishers, inflict cold procs, anything that allows you to usefully integrate them with regular gameplay.

Tentacle Swarm is just annoyig, kind of like Zephyr's Tornado. CC that makes enemies almost impossible to hit and ultimately just protects them isn't useful or fun. Tentacles could rather pin enemies to the ground or hold them in place, cause fear, draw aggro etc. Again, anything that allows you to continue playing instead of passively watching the ability do nothing useful.

There's so many creative things that could be done with this water / tentacle theme, becoming a puddle is kinda cool I guess, but just being one for extended periods of time is bad. At the very least allows us to bullet jump out of it, maybe link melting into a puddle to crouching or something. Make it fast paced and cool.

Its funny that you mention that cause my idea for the Hydroid rework addresses pretty much every thing you just mentioned 

Hydroid Rework

 

1st ability: No changes needed for mechanics but a base increase in dmg and duration

 

2nd ability: here is where things get fun. Hydroid loses dmg immunity but gains a 75 percent dmg reduction that can scale up to 95 percent dmg reduction with mods, tidal surge becomes a channel ability and he gains increase movement speed instead of travelling a set distance (esentially turning the lower half of his body into water) but still works the same as before where if he runs into enemies he knocks them down. In this mode he can still shoot, aim, melee, swap weapons, but can't bullet jump, roll, or aim glide. If used in the air he will crash down on the ground and knockback all enemies in the area and suffer a cold proc this also procs his passive. When he ends the ability he launches himself in the air.

 

3rd ability: Hydroid no longer becomes becomes a puddle but instead lays down a puddle at where ever he is pointing at, still functions the same as before but enemies that are hit by barrage take triple dmg from it and enemies that are hit by tentacle swarm take quadruple dmg.

 

4th ability: Functions the same way but can now be picked up and moved around if u r using your second ability but reduces the range by half. If cast on Undertow it will pull enemies in and start thrashing them underneath the water dealing the quadruple dmg plus the increase dmg ticks it would normaly take if it was affected by undertow.

 

I feel as though the hydroid rework is a bit mediocre. It improved the fluidity of his abilities(pun intended) which is good, but I still feel like its not quite there yet. I bet someone in DE had a very similar idea to my rework idea but either due too time constraints or performance issues they couldn't implement it.

[Trentiel]

I actually really like this idea, however. 2 things.

1. Do not remove the stealth element. Don't make Hydroid visible in this state. He becomes the bubble and controls it, just like his puddle form.

2. I like the feature of the new Undertow, being able to pull in enemies by clicking on them. Just let Hydroid melee them while they're inside. Making them float in place would do fine.

[FoxFX]

1 minute ago, Trentiel said:

I actually really like this idea, however. 2 things.

1. Do not remove the stealth element. Don't make Hydroid visible in this state. He becomes the bubble and controls it, just like his puddle form.

2. I like the feature of the new Undertow, being able to pull in enemies by clicking on them. Just let Hydroid melee them while they're inside. Making them float in place would do fine.

 

I guess having Hydroid camouflage with the Water Dome can work better. Each time Hydroid attacks in the Water Dome with Melee, make him appear briefly at that moment.

[Trentiel]

Hmmm, I don't know. I'm torn. I like Hydroid as a kind of secret stealth frame. But Maybe DE should either commit more to that or leave it all together. But no, don't make him visible when he attacks, especially with melee.

One thing I keep thinking about is comparing Hydroid to Vauban. Who sadly came first, and did all his abilities (save for tidal surge) better than him. But even stealth, Vauban does better. See if you use Bastille on unalerted enemies, they're locked in place so well even their alert status doesn't change. You can walk right out in front of them, fire at them with loud guns. Doesn't matter. They can't go alert until Bastille ends.

Where as Hydroid's puddle can't even get stealth multipliers. Because technically they're dying to a warframe power. Which is lame by the way. Why are warframe powers categorically never stealth attacks? For a game about super ninjas, that's pretty lame.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Trentiel

[ironfirefist]

4 hours ago, Ldezzer said:

I think Hydroid's biggest problem is that "Sea" theme is way too complex. He couldn't be just pirate with rum, gunpowder and kraken, or sea monster that drags his enemies into the water grave, or just only have a generic water magic. I still cant tell which one of these is close to real Hydroid's theme, and i guess that's why its very hard to rework him correctly

Not sure about the "correct" idea of a rework.

For example, oberon needed a near complete overhoal of his abilities, altough they stuck with the theme, since there's nothing wrong with that.

I always felt like hydroid was still viable for something, wether it'd be damage, majorly CC and even armour stripping or rescource farming, with some nice movement to it.

I feel like they tweaked that massivly, and i like the current changes, altough when you "puddle around" energy regen is a huuuuuge problem.

Hydroid is still a "waterbender" more than a pirate. This is like vauban is more the technician/tactician than the BOOBEN with his balls and bouncy castles.

The kraken thing fits more into the 4th ability description, of actually summoning a creature that helps you fight, instead of becoming something entirely else.

 

Thruth be told, out of this theme there could be a theme split, just like banshee is sound and octavia the music.

We could have a pirate based warframe that has something rum-like and has kraken/cannon abilities, and then hydroid would become more of the water caster like frost is ice themed. This Idea is a bad one, since hydroid has been "bonded" by the community for a long long time, each in their own (sometimes modular) ideas. Some view him as a pirate, some as the caster, some as the monster of the deeps. And that whilst it's all at the same time atm. Kudos to DE to being able to fit this all in one frame.

[leadwolf1]

SO DE I believe you will take these note of some change and do some more changes to try out. Honestly though why don't you set some ground rules. That after testing , players that want to give feed back must read, so as not to be so redundant, if you agree with some of the idea previous then state so and quote it and then if you want to tweak or change something then do so in your comments. this way it is like a group discussion. it will also be easier for you to understand the way the players are asking for the changes to be made. then you do not have to deal with the radical that just wants it to be changed their way and the hell with the rest of the players, you can just ignore that player. I believe if it is done in this fashion players will see most want it about the same way. Players are suppose to be adults on this game ( 17 and older) and adults should have learned to take other peoples opinions put them together and come up with the best solutions, the old give and take method.

Edited August 13, 2017 by leadwolf1
to add more text for explanation

[ThiagoSampaio]

It's one of the best ideas I've seen for now, it would solve the problems of whoever uses Undertow and who needs to deal damage to the enemies in it. Hydroid is my main / favorite warframe and I would love to see this done in Undertow

[Trentiel]

1 hour ago, DeathTheLegendary1 said:

Its funny that you mention that cause my idea for the Hydroid rework addresses pretty much every thing you just mentioned 

Hydroid Rework

 

1st ability: No changes needed for mechanics but a base increase in dmg and duration

 

2nd ability: here is where things get fun. Hydroid loses dmg immunity but gains a 75 percent dmg reduction that can scale up to 95 percent dmg reduction with mods, tidal surge becomes a channel ability and he gains increase movement speed instead of travelling a set distance (esentially turning the lower half of his body into water) but still works the same as before where if he runs into enemies he knocks them down. In this mode he can still shoot, aim, melee, swap weapons, but can't bullet jump, roll, or aim glide. If used in the air he will crash down on the ground and knockback all enemies in the area and suffer a cold proc this also procs his passive. When he ends the ability he launches himself in the air.

 

3rd ability: Hydroid no longer becomes becomes a puddle but instead lays down a puddle at where ever he is pointing at, still functions the same as before but enemies that are hit by barrage take triple dmg from it and enemies that are hit by tentacle swarm take quadruple dmg.

 

4th ability: Functions the same way but can now be picked up and moved around if u r using your second ability but reduces the range by half. If cast on Undertow it will pull enemies in and start thrashing them underneath the water dealing the quadruple dmg plus the increase dmg ticks it would normaly take if it was affected by undertow.

 

I feel as though the hydroid rework is a bit mediocre. It improved the fluidity of his abilities(pun intended) which is good, but I still feel like its not quite there yet. I bet someone in DE had a very similar idea to my rework idea but either due too time constraints or performance issues they couldn't implement it.

Except that there is nothing about your suggestions that actually resolves any of his problems what-so-ever.

1. more damage and duration would be nice I guess.

2. Hydroid losing his damage immunity, so he can become water volt? Who can't jump? Jumpless water volt. You know what would frustrate team mates even more than trapping enemies in a puddle, pulling enemies around in a tidal wave they also can't hit. Or just as worse, if the enemies aren't trapped in the wave the force would throw enemies around the room as the Hydroid moves and changes directions. Which is what frustrates people about Inaros Sandstorm. This power is actually FINE as is, since it groups enemies up conveniently.

3. The problem with his 3rd is that it's basically a Vauban Vortex that keeps enemies away from team damage. This is objectively terrible team synergy, it's anti-cooperative. The change you have suggested takes a cool stealth / invulnerability / regeneration power... and makes it literally just a 100% worse Vortex. Without addressing any of the problems that it already has, becoming an even more powerful troll tool.

4. Thrashing enemies underneath the water would look like a whole lot of nothing and does nothing to address the problem of Hydroid's 4, which is that it also keeps enemies from being shot at by team mates. This time by flailing them around wildly, but now you want the tentacles to help drag enemies down into the puddle where no one else can damage them.

I can safely say, these changes wouldn't just not improve him, but would 100% make him worse.

So here's a new pitch.

Hydroid's 1 and 4 are basically the same ability. They're a semi-random area of effect CC, either rain or tentacles. Enemies are getting knocked prone or ragdolled. I don't see the point of having both. So remove Barrage and shift all his powers down 1.

Tidal Surge: Lower the cost to something appropriate for a 1st ability. Let us jump cancel it, with an energy refund for the amount of it's duration we didn't use. So it can be better chained into mobility, without forcing us to commit to a full charge. Mobility abilities need some kind of energy caveat that makes them more use-able, similar to the way slash dash costs less on repeated uses.

Undertow: Change the puddle into a bubble like user FoxFX suggested. So that enemies float in the bubble, able to be damaged by team mates. Simultaneously giving bubble-hydroid the ability to invisibly melee to death enemies inside. Keep the pull mechanic, that's fun and useful. The Tidal Surge synergy is fun too. But make it pull any enemy trapped inside, along for the ride. For reals.

Tentacle Swarm: Merge the functionality of Barrage and Tentacle Swarm. Both rain and tentacles would erupt repeatedly for the duration of the ability and bombard the enemy in the area. Enlarge the AOE, but keep the adjustable size based on charge time. Make the tentacles hold enemies still. Maybe wave back and forth a bit, but not erratically. Let the cannon balls handle damage. Give the whole area a rain and water effect over the entire AOE while this happens. Like it's an AOE sea storm.

Kraken: Summon the seamonster. Use the Golden Maw mechanic from TWW. It could surf around with a couple of tentacles smashing face. Maybe even eating enemies. I don't know. C'mon DE. Golden Maw sea monster. You could do it.

Passive: Make all his powers inflict a unique status effect, called "Soaking Wet" that increases elemental damage and elemental status chance. Making him synergize well with other elemental frames, like Frost, Volt, Oberon... Even Ember. Ironically.

[ThiagoSampaio]

There are so many great ideas and so many crazy ideas ... I just want the DE to absorb these incredible ideas and make the Hydroid what it deserves to be. Hydroid is my main / favorite warframe (34%, being the most used on my profile) and I would love to see those feats. "Rising from the ocean depths, Hydroid harnesses the power of water to a devastating effect." Come on! This guy has to be awesome!

(Certainly these changes will increase the sales of Prime access.) That's the tip. XD

[Koldraxon-732]

If Hydroid Prime is to be worth obtaining, the way I am suggesting for his passive to be changed is something that needs to be done. It'll be worth it.

Spoiler

 

Passive: Hydroform.

Spoiler

Hydroid flows like water, allowing him to become a Tidal Surge when he slides while on a surface, and grants him - upon staying crouched for a time - a liquid state - an Undertow.
Passive effects:

Spoiler

1: Tidal Surge, if you don't pair with Undertow, will have a little tide - like how short it is without any modifications in Undertow now; enemies aren't exactly flung as far or fast as before, and are grounded for the duration.
2: Undertow acts like it always did, but the damage immunity only lasts a few seconds (increases with duration mods). Movement speed is the same as crouch/walk speeds.
3: Passive effects can be influenced by Augment Mods as if they were their former abilities.

The passive allows Hydroid to obtain pirate-themed powers, and Tempest Barrage would be his 3rd power, meaning it needs a buff.

Here's his replacement first and second powers, which are open to alteration. Due to his aqua-manipulator + pirate theme, I felt these would fit well.

1st power name: Pirate's Arsenal.

Spoiler

Hydroid may throw the following items, selected by tapping (see Vauban's 2nd ability as an example, but with one less option), and activated by a brief (as brief as a Javlok throw) hold of said power:

1: Icy cannonball, which explodes on impact, knocking, freezing, puncturing and slashing enemies within it's explosion radius. Fires from a water-formed Ballistica (Prime).
Requires no target selection, but engages an Exalted Handcannon (Ballistica, Prime if 'frame is Prime) which has one shot; charging this power will increase shots. Duration amplifies ammo count.

2: Void Anchor, pulled from the Void and thrown towards an area, after impacting it will drag enemies into it's portal, Corrupting them into allies if they reach the portal's radius.
This requires a destination. The model it uses could be a repurposed hook, made from ice and Void; raw Prisma if Prime.

3: Trident of Hunhow (Trident of Uranus if 2nd Dream not complete), throws a Sentient target-seeking spear that will then explode into spikes, impailing enemies onto nearby surfaces.
This requires a chosen target, selected like Ash's 4. Damage dealt scales with melee weapon and/or speargun. Primarily deals impact and puncture damage.

2nd power name: Kraken's Accord.

Spoiler

Drains energy upon each melee or power kill to force enemies to ONLY drop resources. They will not drop anything else. Not even blueprints or Void Reactants. Allies within a radius benefit from this, but only for melee kills. Amplifies power damage while active. 

3rd power name: Tempest.

Spoiler

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage would be his new 3rd ability, and would gain Storm; precise lightning strikes and deadly, explosive hail shards increase damage. The power costs it's maximum cost (without mods, max level) and cannot be charged. Currently has no chargeup animation, making it look like Hydroid is AFK.

Power damage at max level without mods should be about 600, spread out as follows:
Heavy rain: 20 damage per hit. Viral damage. Additional Corrosive via augment.
Lightning strikes: 280 damage per hit - erratic and unpredictable. Electricity damage. Additional Corrosive via augment.
Explosive Hail: 300 damage per hit - AOE has slight falloff. Cold + Pincture damage. Additional Corrosive via augment.
Additional Corrosive damage augment: turns half of the other elemental types' damage into Corrosive and adds 30% of the total power damage on top of itself.

3rd power name: Kraken's Feast.

Spoiler

Charge to persuade the beast to resurface and devour enemies pinned by the tentacles, instantly gibbing them (allows Nekros synergy). Tentacles will not flail randomly, and will instead pin them to some spot, causing impact damage that rapidly scales as the Kraken tries to reach them. If the Kraken can't reach them, the tentacle submerges and resurfaces elsewhere in the radius. Successful kills prolong the presence of the Kraken. Hydroid can pet the Kraken.

Tentacles spawn during chargeup or quick-casts in random numbers around Hydroid. Can be charged while moving; Undertow, even in passive form, will grant the clustered tentacle state.

 

 

[Ascythian]

Posted this in concept forum but may as well post it in this topic, this is for a charged Undertow creating a hazard.

Charged abilities seem like a good idea, but for Hydroid its implementation is not exactly as desired. 

Hydroid is not currently 'fixed' but for Undertow it might be desirable for a charged Undertow to place a pool hazard on the ground, while normal quick press turns him into a puddle.

This idea is from someone else on this forum [LOD07], but this goes into further detail.

Means the Undertow augment could repair Hydroid while he is shooting/melee etc same as when he is the actual puddle [as long as he is on it].

Instead of enemies sinking without trace into the puddle also, you could have them flailing around on the surface, ready to be headshotted etc before sinking when they die but still being able to be desecrated by Nekros [ending the ability expels their bodies/body parts ready for slashing etc]. Greater range and movement from the puddle as well as incorporating Tidal Surge into it would also seem to be an improvement overall.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

I'm still waiting for update to actually test him, but from what I've seen this is what I think :

 

1 - Passive will be useless for players who use hydroid more for farming (it always has), because they just cast their 4 and stand there.  Hydroid is known for CC and farming. Give him a passive like coolant leak, where if an enemy gets too close they get mini puddled for a short duration.  And just like limbo change his rolling movement to a tidal surge. that would be awesome.

2 - He needs to deal more damage.  The good thing about a frame is the ability  for it to handle as much  scenarios as possible.  Damage dealer is one of them.  All his abilities need a slight buff.

3 - the "nerfs" players are pointing out could be compensated by giving hydroid abilities a Cold Proc with a decent duration and a certain radius of effect near puddle.  his movement in the puddle costs energy so if he didn't have to move too much a cold proc would be useful for other players to finish off remaining un-CC'ed enemies and help out with pulling enemies inside the puddle without having to rush.

4 - He does need animation for charging abilities and please not too much casting duration.  Harrow is already costing players a slot for natural talent.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by (PS4)fullblast35

[Ascythian]

40 minutes ago, ThiagoSampaio said:

39 minutes ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

If Hydroid Prime is to be worth obtaining, the way I am suggesting for his passive to be changed is something that needs to be done. It'll be worth it.

  Hide contents

 

Passive: Hydroform.

  Reveal hidden contents

Hydroid flows like water, allowing him to become a Tidal Surge when he slides while on a surface, and grants him - upon staying crouched for a time - a liquid state - an Undertow.
Passive effects:

  Reveal hidden contents

1: Tidal Surge, if you don't pair with Undertow, will have a little tide - like how short it is without any modifications in Undertow now; enemies aren't exactly flung as far or fast as before, and are grounded for the duration.
2: Undertow acts like it always did, but the damage immunity only lasts a few seconds (increases with duration mods). Movement speed is the same as crouch/walk speeds.
3: Passive effects can be influenced by Augment Mods as if they were their former abilities.

The passive allows Hydroid to obtain pirate-themed powers, and Tempest Barrage would be his 3rd power, meaning it needs a buff.

 

 

Id hate for another Warframe that cannot roll ala Limbo but maybe his puddle could BE his unique Passive but only is another button is reserved for it, I would no way endorse it if he could no longer roll with the punches. In fact I hope Limbo's 'passive' gets switched to a non-roll button.

[Ascythian]

Another idea could be to make Undertow do elemental damage to someone who shoots it/Hydroid does it himself, but Im not really endorsing a Chroma/Chromatic Blade solution.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Ascythian