Major problem in Warframe is challenge (imo)

[TaylorsContraction]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

"I never liked the horde shooter playstyle" = "I never liked warframe"....

Let's not put words in my mouth. I like the gameplay of warframe (movement, powers, gunfights). And it isn't always a horde shooter. I run solo missions in stealth at my leisure very often. As a veteran player who doesn't need to farm for anything I get to enjoy the game however I like and most of the time that doesn't involve dealing with hordes. In my personal case it is sneaking around and dispatching enemies without using invisibility. To each their own, don't mistake your play-style with being THE playstyle. This game is rather diverse and offers a lot of options for players.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

23 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I run solo missions in stealth at my leisure very often. As a veteran player who doesn't need to farm for anything I get to enjoy the game however I like and most of the time that doesn't involve dealing with hordes.

That's avoiding hordes of enemies, m8. You don't need to shoot them. You're hiding from them. But the hordes are still there. It's not a subjective thing - it's howthis game is designed. You get a procedurally generated map with a horde of enemies spawned on it and an objective - whatever that objective is. The hordes are the primary obstacle you interact with. And all the rest of your gameplay revolves around your ability to fight or avoid those hordes to complete the objective.

Edited August 18, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[TaylorsContraction]

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's avoiding hordes of enemies, m8. You don't need to shoot them. You're hiding from them. But the hordes are still there. It's not a subjective thing - it's howthis game is designed. You get a procedurally generated map with a horde of enemies spawned on it and an objective - whatever that objective is. The hordes are the primary obstacle you interact with. And all the rest of your gameplay revolves around your ability to fight or avoid those hordes to complete the objective.

This is detracting from the thread, but if you play stealth enough you know that in any non endless mission there is anything but hordes. If you remain undetected the enemies are very few in number, an occasional group of 4 or 5 enemies to dispatch. Often times I go through entire missions killing between 30-40 enemies. I  can only assume you don't run non-endless in stealth to not be aware of this fact. Either that, or your definition of horde is different from mine. Hordes for me means killing hundreds of enemies, 200-1000+++.

[CarrotSalad]

On 8/12/2017 at 4:02 PM, SenorClipClop said:

many want to play this game to relax and aren't really looking to spend their free time on something difficult. Challenge is either got by manufacturing it for one's self in this game, or by playing another game. Let's hope future content provides more challenge.

^^
I would've quit this game after an hour of play if it was as challenging as something like league of legends, Splatoon 2, Automobilista or Dirt 4 simulation mode. If youre working your butt off during the day from study + work and have to cook yourself dinner aswell as other niggles in life. The last thing you wanna do is open up an MMO and study a long list of mechanics and meta techniques in order to progress and not annoy people in pickup groups who expect you to have read the encyclopedia of the game.

Just let me jump into a mission with a crazy OP weapon or equally a below par weapon and smash some baddies without having to study hours of youtube videos and online guides.

I will say peoples requests for more challenge should'nt go unheard but it should'nt be at the expense of a more casual friendly experience. I often think if people want challenge then PVP, Lunaro and Raids should provide for greater challenge.

[PopGligor]

Warframe is too easy, but its point isn't in being hard. It's a looter game, like Diablo. Diablo is a very easy game. Even on the higher difficulties, if you know what you're doing, you'll steamroll content easily. Because Diablo, and Warframe, are not about technical skill. It's not about your ability to aim, take cover or maneuver. It's about your knowledge of the game. Your understanding of mechanics, of crafting. Knowing loot locations, knowing what bosses drop and where you need to go and what you need to do to get what you want. It's all about knowledge. That's the skill in Warframe.

Before U19, there was legitimate challenge in the game that is now gone. You had great incentives to stay for 40-60 or more minutes in T4 survival (def etc, too), because the key is rare and you wanted to go longer on one key. That would make the game challenging. But the relic system removed that in order to make you visit the other tilesets.

Then they added kuva farming, which also makes you visit all the tilesets, making the void change kinda redundant. I'm one of those who feels the older system had its flaws, but ultimately was more... fun, due to how it incentivized you to maximize your utility of finite resources. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Hordes for me means killing hundreds of enemies, 200-1000+++.

Horde is not a number. It's a possibility of a number - if that's not too vague of a description. Going stealth you're basically avoiding an infinite number of enemies that would be a part of the endlessly spawning horde that Warframe's gameplay is based around. I understand why you might not think that way, but I ask you to imagine the game as an equation and try to solve it by removing the surface-level elements. You'll probably see what I'm talking about. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, QuietBiro said:

It's a looter game, like Diablo.

Diablo has scaling difficulty. You wouldn't play diablo just to collect the loot unless there was a practical use for that loot. Difficulty provides that practical implication necessary for any looter game. Carrot and a stick - not carrot without the stick o stick without a carrot, or stick that you imagine yourself, - both carrot and the stick together only make for a balanced and structured gameplay.

Edited August 18, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Andaius]

On 8/12/2017 at 2:14 AM, SamoussePrime said:

Hello,

First of all, I played many hours on Warframe and unlocked a huge content of weapon or warframes. I love this game and the dev are doing a great job with all those updates and provide good contents. 

But sadly in my opinion this game is too easy. Not with farming or getting a full moded warframe, but with fighting. Basicaly, it's One Shot or being One Shot (or One Shot and no care for many warframes). So where is the point to get a perfect moded rare weapon? I love the moding system, it's really interesting and requieres some calculation before get something good (with the warframes it's just a pleasure to adapt/change the gameplay by mods!).

But once again, there is no point to do a perfect stuff with those foes. If I take Nidus with basic mods (vitality + continuity + streamline + intensify) without weapon I'm able to do every mission easly (void T3 or Sedna). Or if I take Loki I can do a mission with no threatening...

Dev started something great with Ambulas, in my opinion, this boss has some mecanics and this is interesting to fight against. I think they should continue in this direction and maybe be inspired by Mass Effect (bosses mecanics) to make something more epic. It's definitly what I miss in Warframe: no epic fight.

In addition, why not increase to resistance of the enemies and reduce their strenght? Fights would be longer and harder (a mob who just OS you is just meh). This game have a awesome theory craft potential but there is no challenge at all to be neat with it. 

Finally, if you guys have some advices to make this game harder or to increase the challenge to improve my game experience I would give you a thanks :-P

Samousse

Easy enough to fix. Don't min-max or optimize damage and warframe builds.  I find that levels 30-50 are the "Sweet spot" for game balance between it being dangerous and just getting 1 shot by bullet sponge enemies.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Andaius said:

Easy enough to fix. Don't min-max or optimize damage and warframe builds.

That's a part of the gameplay. I always found fascinating how minmaxing is stigmatized in the Warframe community, when in literally every other game it's glorified and aimed for.

 For me personally a call "not to minmax" sounds like a complete herecy - why did I farm all these mods then? why did I farm all these weapons then? If I'm not supposed to use them to their fullest potential? 

 But it doesn't mean that minmaxing is the only "right" way to play the game. The problem I see with Warframe right now, is that current build doesn't implement a lot of the mechanics present in the game into the gameplay. Missions basically boil down to a parcour race to the extraction when there's barely enough gameplay for a single player and 3 others are forced to just run, fighting for the scraps of gameplay the faster one leaves behind. 

[Andaius]

5 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's a part of the gameplay. I always found fascinating how minmaxing is stigmatized in the Warframe community, when in literally every other game it's glorified and aimed for.

 For me personally a call "not to minmax" sounds like a complete herecy - why did I farm all these mods then? why did I farm all these weapons then? If I'm not supposed to use them to their fullest potential? 

 But it doesn't mean that minmaxing is the only "right" way to play the game. The problem I see with Warframe right now, is that current build doesn't implement a lot of the mechanics present in the game into the gameplay. Missions basically boil down to a parcour race to the extraction when there's barely enough gameplay for a single player and 3 others are forced to just run, fighting for the scraps of gameplay the faster one leaves behind. 

Well if your complaining about it being too easy, and you only use the best possible and most efficient builds for your frames and weapons and don't like the High level scaling of "enemies 1 shot you" it comes down to build weaker so you can have the challenge your looking for but at a lower enemy level threshold.

Like I said my personal "sweet spot" for challenge and power builds is about levels 30-50. Once they get to 70-80 they get way too bullet spongy. Sortie level drop you in pretty much 1 shot depending on your frame. So if your not into that style it's out. So until DE addresses high level scaling balance, you have to work with what we have. That usually means using less optimized builds on lower levels.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Andaius

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Well if your complaining about it being too easy, and you only use the best possible and most efficient builds for your frames and weapons and don't like the High level scaling of "enemies 1 shot you" it comes down to build weaker so you can have the challenge your looking for but at a lower enemy level threshold.

I "complain" (people love to throw this word around in this community, even though we're supposed to be beta-testers)...

My "complaint" is about the fact that 90% of the gear we farm in this supposedly looter game isn't in any way shape or form rooted into the gameplay of the supposedly looter game. Most of the missions in Warframe - most of the starchart are absolutely unused because there's absolutely no reason to play those missions. And before you say that kuva and fissures appearing randomly solved this problem - no. Random mods on regular nodes don't change the fact that original nodes are useless.

[Andaius]

12 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I "complain" (people love to throw this word around in this community, even though we're supposed to be beta-testers)...

My "complaint" is about the fact that 90% of the gear we farm in this supposedly looter game isn't in any way shape or form rooted into the gameplay of the supposedly looter game. Most of the missions in Warframe - most of the starchart are absolutely unused because there's absolutely no reason to play those missions. And before you say that kuva and fissures appearing randomly solved this problem - no. Random mods on regular nodes don't change the fact that original nodes are useless.

I use "complain" in the most general sense. it's not an insult. If you look at the definition it's State a dissatisfaction/suffering/grievance. The loot you get in the game is designed to make you more powerful. The game advertizes you as being a super soldier ninja that can kill hordes of enemies. You can do this. So I'd say the loot is very rooted. The starchart is supposed to be "easy" for the awesomely equipped Tenno. This is for the folks who complain(yes they state there displeasure/dissatisfaction) at the ease at which they dispatch the enemy.  I merely refer there builds and if they are using the best possible stuff at low levels. 

The game does have a unbalanced high level scaling. If you don't like how that works and still want a challenge. The option left is to build weaker so you can get your challenge at lower levels. The problem is high level balance. Other wise your just complaining the the easy stuff is easy to people that know it's easy.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Andaius

[Troll_Logic]

On 8/12/2017 at 2:14 AM, SamoussePrime said:

But sadly in my opinion this game is too easy.

Depends on you.  If you want to cheese the entire mission you can.  If you want to me the guy that builds three warframes, and three sets of primaries, secondaries, and melee weapons so you have the most powerful weapons that have most power mods in every mission, that's up to you.

[Chipputer]

It's a problem with power creep and the mentality of using the most OP new weapon that's been released.

Run around with a Cernos Prime instead of your Tigris Prime. Immediate difficulty spike due to a change in the mechanics you're using to deal damage.

What DE needs to do is to make AI get more aggressive and, at the same time, smarter with their defensive approaches as their levels rise. Numbers aren't enough to make, "challenge." All they do is simply make the outcomes of fire fights take longer to reach-- either the enemy kills you slowly and you kill them quickly or you die fast but the enemy can take a beating.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Chipputer

[PopGligor]

6 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Diablo has scaling difficulty. You wouldn't play diablo just to collect the loot unless there was a practical use for that loot. Difficulty provides that practical implication necessary for any looter game. Carrot and a stick - not carrot without the stick o stick without a carrot, or stick that you imagine yourself, - both carrot and the stick together only make for a balanced and structured gameplay.

Diablo 2, which is the classic that people still play after 16 years without receiving new content, doesn't have scaling difficulty. It's an easy game, too. The goal of a looter isn't the challenge. It isn't to have an use for that loot. This is for treadmill MMOs, like WoW. The ones with gear checks. Diablo III is closer to WoW than Diablo 2 in that sense. The goal of a game like Warframe is to explore. To learn. To find what loot the game has to offer and what you can do with it. That's all. It's exactly like Diablo 2.

This is some new mentality born from games crafted by statistics rather than creativity, that you need to have challenge that requires a piece of gear to make that gear worth it. Nah. In Warframe, the mastery and variety is what makes the gear worth it. It's all about creativity. If you want challenge - Mot is there, do 1 hour on it without resorting to cheesy tactics. 

[SenorClipClop]

11 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You don't need to engineer random derp solutions to artifically conjure difficulty in 99% of other games but you have to do it with Warframe? Because, why? You seriously think this was intentional on DE's side and not just another major accidental screw up because of the lack of first-hand gameplay expierience? C'mon guys. 

 

On 8/12/2017 at 2:32 PM, SenorClipClop said:

I believe it is a conscious choice by the devs, since many want to play this game to relax and aren't really looking to spend their free time on something difficult.

There's a a wide spectrum of players who play Warframe for various reasons. Making large portions of game very challenging would frustrate a lot of layers into quitting. Don't get me wrong, I want more challenge in this game, but it would have to be added in moderation so as not be be unfair to the players who just play this game to relax.