Zephyr Rework

[Desdemona-XI]

UPDATE Aug 16th with a Suggestion from  (PS4)theelix And some other alterations

Okay So I know Many have posted their ideas concerning Zephyr as she is she's a fun but lackluster frame with powers that were suited to open air when most missions simply have almost none of that. But with Plains on the way Zephyr has a chance to be appriciated again. also Zephyr was rather crippled with the map celing that was placed after bullet jumps came in to play. so heres my suggestions for her rework:

 

Stats: Her stats are okay as is. But I would like a little extra max energy. bringing her up to 200 base at rank 30. her passive should not be touched. its Quite useful in it's current state for certain specialized tasks. and its the First Ever Passive. so my Nostalgia prevents me from wanting to change it 

 

Tailwind: expand the max verticle angle of her Horazontal Tailwind to more practical angles. increase the Distance travelled. between 1.5x and 2x current base. when airborne Hold power key to create a marked location at reticle within a certain angle of straight down, at a full charge it uses Dive Bomb with slightly increased damage over current stats and a Guaranteed Knockdown within a Slightly increased Radius.

 

Turbulence: Maybe Move her Turbulence from 3 to 2 leave otherwise unchanged. that's a good skill and decently balanced.

 

Add at 2 or 3 a channeled power: Ascendant Wings (including two options)

Version 1: Wings extend from the wing-like protrusions on Zephyr's arms. allowing her flight (because really. if a fairy can fly without limitations a Bird should be able to.) use the same sort of archwing esque control method, without the size shrink or butt wings. (I do not expect DE to reinvent the wheel here but I really want Zephyr to Fly) when in this mode   

The Alt Fire key generates a powerful gust of wind that ragdolls enemies in a cone in front of her to a decent range. a bit longer then Banshee's sonicboom as it will mostly be used while airborne. for a energy cost per gust. (Note, A Gentle Ragdoll. just tumbles them about a bit on the floor. no Sonicor/Jat kittag launching them into orbit. maybe slightly scaling with power Strength and maybe with Force diminishing with range, for more powerful ragdoll for someone trying to put an axe in your eye)

The Fire Key shooting Feather-like Quills dealing puncture damage (also (PS4)theelix's Idea though re-purposed) with the potential to add to a tornado's damage. (see Below) 

The Melee Key allowing Zephyr land small fixxed damage kicks, dealing a mix of 75% impact and 25% slash damage with 30% status base that Ignores 50%-75% of enemy armor (scaling on power strength)

The Interact Key to grip enemies and allies with her talons, Lifting them skyward with her

Version 2: The wings extend from Zephyr's back leaving her arms free to use weapons In a mechanic similar to the Plains of Eidolon Archwing as displayed in teaser But at an increased Energy cost per second. Allies or enemies Picked up and dropped with the Interact key 

 

Notes: Allies picked up will still have full use of their weapons In both versions, and can Roll out of it as easily as one rolls out of the Rift for Limbo, and perhaps being unable to be picked up while crouched. Enemies Will not.  to prevent trolling its Purpose is to allow players with poor mobility (Rhino, Saryn, Oberon) players with poor parkour skills. or Players using a Hobbled Key to be carried more efficiently from Point A to B (A hobbled Titania can fly at full speed herself so don't tell me that's Unbalanced) Provide a little CC and and some light damage for self defense. This is not Titania's Flight and Isn't meant to deal heavy damage. being hit with a "knockdown" effect will cancel out the power and knock zephyr down. And while hauling an enemy or an ally a mild drop in speed..

 

Alter her Tornado with the same mechanic used for Hydroid's rework. Tap for the four regular little funnels. maybe boost their range and damage a bit. and have the four spawn in fixed locations around Zephyr. allotting for map collision ofcourse. and wandering from there. the current spawn on enemies mechanic has a tendancy to waste tornados by placing them on isolated people or placing two on enemies right next to eachother. fully charged releases one Much larger Actual tornado at the reticle target for Double energy cost with double damage and range of a single tornado and increased duration. (PS4)theelix suggested to me below and I like the idea tornado should pick up drops simply because it's kind of bizarre that it doesn't. and have The Tornadoes increase damage per tick for items and Bodies flying around within it as that is actually the more damaging aspect of a real tornado. Also being able to shoot through the tornadoes would be a must

 

Maybe alter the augment to reduce energy cost and spout one smaller funnel at a time. but when the funnels move together they combine and grow.

 

Explanations:

Now A Lot of people have had various suggestions, some of which I feel are unwieldy. Others excessively powerful. Others I like in part or in whole but don't quite feel right to me.

Now the most obvious problem is ofcourse Tailwind and Divebomb. in their current forms they are shoddy powers apart. And I feel that divebomb always going Straight down is actually not very great for the players, as they have to look straight down and thus don't see whats directly ahead of them when trying to do a dive while moving, and in certain map tiles it's easy to misjudge and divebomb right into a 'pit' so giving us a chance to aim dive bomb is to me quite essential. Some have suggested incorporating Tailwind into Zephyr's passive. and I am not opposed to this idea, exactly. but as I said Nostalgia for the passive, and concern about how easy it will be to control while its part of Zephyrs base movement worries me. I do not want to constantly be cursing and slamming into windows like real birds because of accidental Tailwind triggers. I am keeping the flight mode OFF 4 because I have made it relatively underpowered intentionally to allow Tornado To still be of practical value. Regarding Tornado's augment as it is and the interplay with Neo-tornado as I have not yet used that augment I do not have much by way of opinion if it needs to be rethought utterly or left exactly as is or only have a slight adjustment for the charge feature.

And Yes I admit I am a bit insistent on some manner of flight. but come on.. honestly she's a BIRD. I can sympathize with not having flight originally. even archwing did not exist then. but DE has made a frame able to fly that was not Zephyr. and to be honest that kind of bothers me. especially since the "butterfly fairy" flies like a goddamn sparrowhawk and is aerial lethality in cute little fairy wings. when Zephyr's oxium based construction, abilities, everything emphasizes she's supposed to fly.

 

Which of the Zephyr suggestions DE makes use of, if Any at all is really up to them.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Desdemona-XI
Update with Suggestion

[Tarak]

I agree with most of what you have said, but I have a few ideas to add. I think her one should be focused around the dive-bomb and have a charge mechanic like Hydroid does now. A tap while on the ground should simply launch you straight up with a little hang time at the top (unless you recast or melee ground slam to cancel) and tapping while already airborne should do a dive-bomb straight down. Holding it while on the ground should launch you up and then start to charge a dive-bomb that goes to your reticle does more damage and costs more energy the longer you charge it and holding it while in the air should do the same minus the initial upward launch. Note that you'd probably want a very clear reticle change displaying whether or not you'll hit the ground, and I think if you don't hit the ground it should cost only the base energy.

The one thing I don't agree with is her current four, I think it's fine as it is but should become her three. I also feel she should get a channeled ability as her four. Perhaps the mechanical change you suggested could come into play if it's cast while she is using her four?

While this channeled flying mode is active I think her one should have the same dmg values as normal but cost less and end with an upward swoop (if it connects with the ground, note that you could aim it away from the ground to use it as a quick movement through the air as I don't think you'd have bullet jump while flying). Perhaps the grabbing enemies could come in there? If her one makes direct contact with an enemy while using her four she'll grab them as she swoops back up into the air and throw them into the air as she finishes the swoop up.

[Desdemona-XI]

the reason I feel tornado should stay as her 4th is because it would be the more damaging and more powerful and the 4th skill usually has the 100 energy base cost. this incarnation of zephyr flight would be mostly utility, as it does not deal much damage, aside kicks which as said would deal moderate damage at best or picking enemies up and dropping them in death-pits. We already have a flying warframe who's flight mode is combat oriented, Titania's fairy form is actually very powerful, and coupled with her smaller hitbox makes her a surprising dominator in a fight 

also Tornado as it is is not actually very useful. pretty good crowd control but the damage is lackluster and several of its mechanics honestly discourage its use.

 

Regarding your idea for 1 the problem I have with divebomb being a straight down power is it actually makes it less useful as it becomes harder to line up the hit. and doesn't currently pack enough power for an innacurate bomb to be much use.

now that I think of it however I do like the idea of an aimed dive bomb becoming a charged version of 1 with some buffs to damage. but then then leave 1 uncharged with the mechanics it currently works with. on ground it boosts up in air it boosts forward. would be organic and intuitive to control. maybe give Zephyr hang-time while charging the ability but zephyr doesn't really need hang-time outside of that due to her passive holding her in the air quite easily.. also having the air charge of 1 restricted to flight mode only is not something I feel is a good idea as that is honest the main use of zephyr's 1 skill now. a quick air dash. as bullet jump cannot be used in the air. and it allows you to recover from a misjudged bullet jump. (quite handy in the Octavia anthem boss fight for example.)

 

the swoop while air dashing in flight mode is an interesting idea however as dive-bombing within flight mode might be a bit irritating and if you really wanted to simply cancelling out of flight before hitting the dive-bomb key would be perfectly viable. though I would still opt to allow simple pickup during flight mode with using the alt fire button when within melee range of your target (archwing melee so a few meters away) and allowing allies to be picked up.

 

Also as far as i know No warframe has abilities that function as modularly as that. the closest is using hydroid's 4 while in undertow simply centers it on hydroid's puddle rather then at the target location. and that hydroid's 2 doesn't cancel undertow but moves at half distance. and the big issue with making the changes you reccomend is it tells players "use flight all the time for good caster mode, but you sacrifice weapons and you probably wont be able to sustain flight for very long because you'll burn energy both flying and using gust attacks as well as ability costs and it being a channeled ability will lock you out of skills like energy vampire, zenurik passive. Siphon. and so on. it would end up too energy inefficient in my opinion. as hydroid at the moment does have a harder time with energy management with his rework which is good because it keeps him balanced. but for Zephyr being inable to fly and be useful for more then short spurts seems more hinderance then help.

 

To answer your question however, as the flight mechanic will likely be based off the same archwing-style flight titania uses, I simply suggest a slight difference in the Model used, arm wings instead of butt wings. but the mechanics the same (because honestly do you really expect DE to reinvent flight just for zephyr when the existing system works better then fine anyway?) there is no bullet jump but you do move and 'Sprint' considerably faster. Titania outstrips most warframes on a foot race while flying. she flies fast enough that doors don't have time to open before she flies into them. also doing a 'forward roll' by tapping the sprint key while moving forward actually does provide a decent quick spurt of speed. as well as giving an evasion boost as it's treated as a dodge maneuver.

[wezling]

Turbulence is far too strong to be a second ability.... Literally 99% immunity to guns.
And the new 3rd ability is titania's 4th without guns...?

I don't see this as any sort of fair rework, to her or to her balance.

If you'd like you can check out a rework I made:

 

[Desdemona-XI]

3 hours ago, wezling said:

Turbulence is far too strong to be a second ability.... Literally 99% immunity to guns.
And the new 3rd ability is titania's 4th without guns...?

I don't see this as any sort of fair rework, to her or to her balance.

If you'd like you can check out a rework I made:

 

actually only about 70% immunity to guns as certain weapons. and missiles can get through turbulence.

as far as strength for it being a 2nd ability the flight could be moved to 2 concievably.  ofcourse there are frames who's 2 might be considered equal to turbulence in terms of effect. I would mention Banshee sonar, Mesa's shooting gallery. Valkyr's warcry which is a 2, while her 3 paralysis is actually the weaker. 

 

Zephyr has never been one for direct damage. her 1 2 and 4 all do noticably less damage then many other frames across the board. and her behaviour is more crowd control. mobility and utility based. personally I think your suggested rework sounds clunky and unwieldy for the most part. also it doesnt much address zephyr being a flightless bird as your 'gale winds' concept while interesting seems highly problematic to actually make use of in most map tiles. as not many actually would be long enough for soaring to be of use before you had to fly through a door. which would basically be the end of soaring as you said you cannot climb back up. also your post does not make mention of the actually quite low map celing which would also hamstring your idea, you may want to add that as a note. as well as undoubtedly frustrating to code as those kind of glide mechanics dont exist in the game at all. as I said. I dont expect DE to reinvent the wheel for one frame. we have flight mechanics and titania proved they can be used in regular missions effectively. 

 

and I could argue that your suggested skills are less balanced, especially the ammount of fatal ragdolling you've listed. anyone who's used Jat Kittag or Sonicor knows how ragdolling can 1shot even high level enemies. adding her first skill as a passive? sure without damage but tailwind really never did that much in the first place. and strip armor for highly powerful enemies as you yourself admitted. as well as suggesting invading nullifier bubbles which to my knowledge are totally unaffected by such powers normally. Granted my Charged tornado is a powerful skill too. but it would cost 200 energy to cast fully charged. which preserves the overall balance of it.

I dont see any problem with gunless flight being fair. though I would like to see Zephyr's claw kicks ignore armor, but deal innate damage not affected by inherited weapon mods. but with decent status chance and a mix between impact and slash damage, for decent oppurtunity to proc a stagger, with no energy cost per kick unlike her gust. 

To me, turning her into Titania 2.0 by making her "fly to do more damage" sounds more like it would actually cripple zephyr's uniqueness and people would just go to Titania for the stacking high duration tribute buffs and other abilities which stack with her existing high damage flight mode. Seriously Titania shreds things in razorwing mode. and is at the moment frankly a better zephyr. now I dont want to have them both competing for roles and abilities  as that simply just doesnt end well and could very easily end with Zephyr just being put right back out to pasture where she is now.

 

and since as you stated turbulence does provide considerable protection though far from perfect. but enought to make a gunless flight mode with only moderate melee damage (meant as mostly just a quick strike to harass enemies or get as a last resort) viable, and keeps it from being overwhelmingly powerful but with the features I described is useful for mobility in all situations. providing a decent crowd control value. for when you are in a pinch. Ragdolling enemies with out much velocity is just enough to clear the area for a revive, or knock enemies off a defense or interception console but not so much as they go violently fatal flying. And some useful utility, because not all players are very good with the parkour elements, having a frame to give allies a boost (nova's wormhole, Ivara's dashwire, even Valkyr's ripline.) can be quite appriciated

 

I dont want to see zephyr only be used on plains of eidolon because nowhere else has enough open space for her powers to be of any real use. as bullet jump and and aim glide currently rival the current range of tailwind meaning that allies can keep up with a zephyr  despite being intended to be more mobile then other frames. so my response to that is make her a better flanker. let her get in and out for quick hit and run bombing runs and being able to carry an ally who would still be able to shoot though only able to cast one-handed action based abilities into the battle means she can drop rescue an ally that's been mobbed and carry them back to a Frost's snowglobe or something.

Regarding the viability of her flying indeffinately with arm-wings. consider that even actual birds arent afforded the same gravity reduction luxury 

[Desdemona-XI]

Oh also I did not cover the Augments in my rework. as they would have to be redone too.

 

Divebomb Vortex. can be mostly unchanged just applied to the new Dive Bomb.

Jet Stream. Doesnt need to be changed as the ability it depends on isnt being altered.

Funnel Clouds. Reduces energy cost to about 50 and summons one Tornado instead of four. but the tornados will combine when they make direct contact with eachother, increasing in size, resulting in a building up to the Full size at around 4-5 tornados, also adding tornados refreshes the duration of the larger tornado.

[wezling]

4 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

actually only about 70% immunity to guns as certain weapons. and missiles can get through turbulence.

Not true, the splash does, but if you mod for range then you can out range the splash damage. So yes missiles are still deflected. What'd more shocking actually is that lazor weapons get deflected. But yet they still do.

 

Next I'd like you to not mix and match the two reworks I suggested.

7 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

it doesnt much address zephyr being a flightless bird as your 'gale winds' concept while interesting seems highly problematic to actually make use of in most map tiles. as not many actually would be long enough for soaring to be of use before you had to fly through a door. which would basically be the end of soaring as you said you cannot climb back up.

Well as you stated this is a new mechanic that would need to be introduced, as such the concept of gliding would be different that our current aim glide, which is why I called it soaring. In the way it allows zephyr to swoop through door ways and allows her to regain height.

7 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

anyone who's used Jat Kittag or Sonicor knows how ragdolling can 1shot even high level enemies.

Funny enough I've very familiar with them as I use both. So yes I understand ragdolling very well. However I only mentioned ragdolling for her in 1 ability for either rework. There's also the impact proc which is a knockdown, but that was effectively in 1 ability per rework (yes tempest had one but it was a 5% chance per second because you know, strong winds). Additionally I think only 1 other ability between the two has a stagger, no worse than banshee's silence. 
On the concept of the acutal ragdolling is the fact that these ragdoll mechanics would be relatively short lived. Honestly tornado would have the longest effects which is no different than it is here. The other is microburst which is effectively slamming the ground with enough wind and force to tear apart a plane, I think a 3 second ragdoll (for if they hit a nearby wall) is rather fair. Additionally if you dive into a nullifier bubble with any ability I do believe you first cast the effect of the ability before loosing any use of them (granted I haven't checked myself, so I'll admit my folly there).

7 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

To me, turning her into Titania 2.0 by making her "fly to do more damage" sounds more like it would actually cripple zephyr's uniqueness

She's not flying to do more damage. Yes microburst has a high damage output, but it's a one time event at high cost. The idea is to have Zephyr use her air speed (hence the gliding) to her advantage. I tried to make it such that each ability follows that theme, but 1 does a significant damage (as stated) and the other is honestly more movement. The idea behind zephyr isn't damage, it's cc.

Not I did like the idea of giving her some damage as well as cc. But as I stated the cost is high to get maximum benefit. Base damage is low per second. Airborne enemies do take larger chunks of damage, but need that very unique and often short lived 'status'. Additionally do get the armor shredding you have to spend MORE energy to spawn at least 1 tornado and even then you only get on average about 3-6 seconds of actual armor shredding time which is only about 30-60% of their armor. On top of that you have a MASSIVE energy drain and restrictions to energy disks.

 

And it's actually funny really because you're the one the brought Zephyr closer to being Titania 2.0 with the new flying ability, only as your started less damage and use.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

actually only about 70% immunity to guns as certain weapons. and missiles can get through turbulence.

Incorrect, friend, she has 100% immunity to ranged weaponry as long a you don't nerf your range. The only things that pass through Turbulence are Auras, Area-of-effect (like explosions) and melee. There is currently the problem of flame-throwers too, but that's a bug as far as I know.

The reason that you don't nerf your range on Zephyr is because there is what's called a 'penetration distance' on Turbulence that means projectiles can come in a certain way and then are reflected out based on their angle in relation to Zephyr. In tight spaces, like corridors, this can mean that missiles are reflected to the walls, floor or ceiling, and the explosions can still hit you if you're close to them. And if you're silly enough to run right up to a Bombard's face, he'll fire a rocket knowing he can't kill himself, and the reflection just bounces it straight down at your feet.

Turbulence has been patched and updated more times than any other ability in game to make it work as well as it does, it's incredibly strong when used with all the knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses (so that you don't end up taking a rocket to the foot), and as far as pure defense abilities go it's top three in the game at least, could be even the top, if it was applied to a frame that could really exploit that ranged defense (imagine a Mesa with 100% ranged damage negation instead of 95% damage reduction from Shatter Shield, no enemy could ever get close enough to kill her, and nothing outside her range could ever hit her...).

Also, don't mind Wezling, kid's enthusiastic, but has some good ideas. I'm getting too old for all these debates, myself, but try out my Shock and Awe rework that's lurking around the recent thread on here, see what you like from there.

If you want a full run-down and critique of your work, just ask, I'll be happy to poke holes and find strengths later.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Why is it that whenever a Warframe gets a rework, everyone goes and proposes a rework using the same mechanics for another Warframe?

Tailwind distance is affected by duration. It exceeds bullet jump distance and speed when modded for such.

Channeled abilities hurt Warframes with minimal energy pools. Especially when they have dependant casting abilities.

Her 4th feels like another titania but I'll run with it. Picking up allies? Absolutely not. I shouldn't even have to explain why that's a bad idea. Do I lose my sentinel like when titania does her fourth? So, I need turbulence to survive and then I use flight with drain over time disabling restorative abilities and then I use flight to ragdoll or melee which puts me in a death range. Sounds a bit counter intuitive. It gives Zephyr a flight mode without actually making her better..

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

I'm getting too old for all these debates

That's why I took a break. I'm back for a bit I'll help 

[Neightrix]

Why would we nerf Turbulence to channeling? That makes no sense - especially while things like Iron Skin and Shatter Shield exist.

Also, go ahead and take a very long, hard look at the Hydroid revisit. Zephyr MIGHT get one new ability if Dive Bomb is added as a charged version of Tail Wind to open her second ability slot. Dramatically changing old frames is not good, and even Zephyr has her fans, and DE isn't going to do that anyway. The goal should be to make her current kit better and more fun without losing anything.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Neightrix

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/15/2017 at 3:07 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Why is it that whenever a Warframe gets a rework, everyone goes and proposes a rework using the same mechanics for another Warframe?

Tailwind distance is affected by duration. It exceeds bullet jump distance and speed when modded for such.

Channeled abilities hurt Warframes with minimal energy pools. Especially when they have dependant casting abilities.

Her 4th feels like another titania but I'll run with it. Picking up allies? Absolutely not. I shouldn't even have to explain why that's a bad idea. Do I lose my sentinel like when titania does her fourth? So, I need turbulence to survive and then I use flight with drain over time disabling restorative abilities and then I use flight to ragdoll or melee which puts me in a death range. Sounds a bit counter intuitive. It gives Zephyr a flight mode without actually making her better..

That's why I took a break. I'm back for a bit I'll help 

Because Mechanics like that shouldn't be restricted to a single warframe and odds are DE will reuse the charge-vs-tap mechanic for more warframes anyway, Likely as not several times. plus they went to the trouble of coding it, and it is a Practical mechanic for frames who would need bi-modular powers.

and as i said the channeled flight should likely be her 2 or 3 due to lack of justified power. as far as mobility and picking up allies. actually you should. As I said. fully cancellable by players, same as the rift is, simply roll right out of it. . and being able to help an ally who isnt good at parkour or has a slow run speed. (Rhino, Oberon and Saryn come to mind.) reach a location quickly would be helpful. Or hauling your rescue target around because their AI is occasionally Horrific. perhaps also making it so a player cannot be picked up while crouching. would be a good idea however.  also in my experience sentinels are borderline useless at helping defend you without things like guardian. but logically speaking a sentinel probably should not be disable as it has the capacity to fly alongside zephyr. for titania it makes a bit more sense she loses her sentinel because of the shrink effect. but most likely DE would have to remove z sentinel too on account of the way flight is coded. temporarily removing all companions.

the idea behind zephyr's flight is to function more as a supporter. and having the Bird frame be flightless Is frankly kind of sad. (because seriously Tailwind is a joke as far as flight goes, its one directional it's range is NOT  actually that great. I don't particularly like min-maxing frames for one ability while forsaking others but Tailwind's Ground Launch height was Matched by a Base Bullet jump, and Beaten by bullet jump with Telos Boltace equipped by a noteworthy height of what appeared to me to be two frame lengths. which means its actually better to bullet jump for a dive bomb rather then using the skill designed to set up for it. (which is seriously dumb.) For Horizontal travel. tailwind does have a slight edge yes but nothing some frames cant keep up with even if they cant match the speed, due to tailwinds design and I *do* have +duration on my zephyr. not sure how much offhand but I would say a max continuity at least. possibly a near-max primed continuity. so.. 130-145% I think. and that's without any bullet jump buffs aside the passive on telos boltace. and Bullet jumps have the advantage of being more controllable and having a higher maximum vertical angle compared to the Horizontal Tailwind. making it actually more overall useful since tailwind's damage is fairly negligible

I cant think of any other innate values of being airborne support/crowd control  with a wind theme other then ragdolling and assisted transport. especially with jet stream already providing a significant optional Aoe Buff.

because Titania's Flight is already all about damage making her fly and be lethal in combat, as well as having frame abilities that also buff and crowd control. (seriously when you think about that fairy is pretty vicious.) making another strong air combat mode is making another Titania. 

Also the "gust" would need to have a respectable range on it so hardly putting oneself in death range. as without flight or turbulence, getting all the way to melee range safely Really isn't that hard except against very high level heavies. Also with flight speed anywhere near titania's even without the modified version of tailwind would mean getting back out of 'death range' circling overhead and continuing to harass the enemy with hit-and-run tactics would be so easy. 

As I said. the flight mode kick would be a panic button primarily. as when flying you can easily move 5-10m when hitting melee as is. which makes it both evasive and offensive. 

 

Zephyr has the same base energy stats as hydroid. and he has both two chargable abilities as well as a sustained ability. (and one with a Heavy energy drain compared to many others when moving especially. I would ideally put the energy expense a little lower then titania's flight per second and I can tell you you can cover some serious ground as titania given her flight speed)

 

I *would* be ammenable to back wings that allow zephyr's arms To remain free to use her own weapons (similar to the mechanic teased in plains of Eidolon) But I cant help feeling that might end up a bit too powerful. (Zephy and Zarr for example)

and I really don't want "Titania's Big sister earns her wings" to be the summary of the rework. but considering that both frames do have crowd control and projectile protection and mobility in their power sets as is. all I could think of short of a ground-up rework which DE has not done to date at all, Is give her more damage potential with her powers, and give her flight crowd control to more offset Titania.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Desdemona-XI
Fixed a typo

[(PSN)theelix]

Nah. 

Make her 1 into a feather attack. Kind of like Ash's Shuriken but with puncture since they are basically bone quills. 

Make her 2... I can't think of another ability, actually. 

Her 3 turbulence should also give her infinite aim-glide time. 

Her tornadoes should give everyone a parkour buff, do what it normally does, and picks up shrapnel and corpses for increased damage. So, it breaks a loot box and picks up the cover for impact damage, picks up corpses (let's assume they're bones already) to gain puncture and... I can't think of anything for slash. Slash OP anyway so maybe it shouldn't be in there. 

Passive should be the ability to have infinite bullet jumps in air. 

[Desdemona-XI]

14 hours ago, Neightrix said:

Why would we nerf Turbulence to channeling? That makes no sense - especially while things like Iron Skin and Shatter Shield exist.

Also, go ahead and take a very long, hard look at the Hydroid revisit. Zephyr MIGHT get one new ability if Dive Bomb is added as a charged version of Tail Wind to open her second ability slot. Dramatically changing old frames is not good, and even Zephyr has her fans, and DE isn't going to do that anyway. The goal should be to make her current kit better and more fun without losing anything.

 

I never suggested nerf turbulence to channelling. I simply said Move the powers around moving turbulence to 2. in fact i said outright, Turbulence is Fine exactly the way it is and does not need any adjustments

 

Also. Hydroid had all four of his abilities undergo changes. 3 changes were substantial. Mag's rework had two of her powers changed in a fairly fundamental way, and she's been stronger ever since. and the reason so many people suggest such dramatic reworks to zephyr is her current 'kit' is Actually pretty damn lousy. her first two skills are borderline wastes of energy, Fun but of very little practical value in a mission. especially as even a high altitude dive bomb really does not pack much bite. I stick heavy impact on Zephyr to try make dive bomb a little bit more useful, tailwind while amusing is also frustrating to control has some very weird angle limitations. turbulence is frankly the best skill she has. and her 4th is really quite underwhelming. it does not do much damage, and even with the elemental modifier its really still a small change. and since each individual funnel has fairly small range and moves in a random direction they can often end up being a substantial distance any useful location. but as you said, yes some people do like zephyr. which is why my suggestions all involve fairly small practical alterations to the skills as is.

-Tailwind gets combined with a aimed dive bomb on charge attack (because separately these skills really aren't worth much, and maybe a half-strength dive-bomb impact when connecting with a solid surface on a horizontal flight.

-Zephyr gets a low strength primarily cc and utility flight mode because she's a freakin Bird

-Turbulence is untouched except maybe moved to a different power slot.

-Tornado gets a high power charge version that summons an Actual tornado in place of four funnels, while the tap cast is Unaltered.

- and Maybe some damage buffs to her powers across the board just to bring them more on par with other frames.

 

Zephyr is not the only older warframe that has nearly been rendered obsolete due to changes in mechanics. and additions of newer frames that fill the same role and do technically a better job. Zephyr has plenty of fans, I'm one of them. But the frame needs a lot of love. she sits in the same basic role as titania, even thematically, except she's unable to fly. and on the whole Titania's powers pack a lot more whallop and protect her team better. Zephyr is sitting as the weaker big sister to what can really be one of the headliner frames. and she is Majorly underwhelming.

[Desdemona-XI]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Nah. 

Make her 1 into a feather attack. Kind of like Ash's Shuriken but with puncture since they are basically bone quills. 

Make her 2... I can't think of another ability, actually. 

Her 3 turbulence should also give her infinite aim-glide time. 

Her tornadoes should give everyone a parkour buff, do what it normally does, and picks up shrapnel and corpses for increased damage. So, it breaks a loot box and picks up the cover for impact damage, picks up corpses (let's assume they're bones already) to gain puncture and... I can't think of anything for slash. Slash OP anyway so maybe it shouldn't be in there. 

Passive should be the ability to have infinite bullet jumps in air. 

Not a bad idea. except:

-I don't think anyone wants to give up Zephyr's current passive.(it's actually pretty useful in many situations) and Bullet jumps while they can be performed in midair i think (i did it once but I cant remember how I managed it) cannot gain any additional altitude. so they would have to adjust that to make it work for just zephyr's passive. and doing bullet jumps in midair are both clumsy and unintuitive. and the real issue is people would most likely really dislike using it due to being clumsy and unwieldy which has in many cases something a lot of reworks aimed to fix. not just making the powers better but making them easier and more organic and intuitive to use.

-Infinite Aim glide potentially useful but as turning with aim glide is occasionally troublesome. and aim glide still has pretty significant forward momentum (Aim glide riven challenges are painful enough) but the core issue I have there is it buffs an already powerful skill.

-her 2 being divebomb is a straight down drop for fairly dull damage even at considerable altitude. its arguably zephyr's worst skill in it's current form. however with the combined tailwind+divebomb this is a decent idea. 

-I considered a feather attack but it'd likely have to be Aoe'd and.. also. zephyr doesnt actually have feathers.. or bones. so it'd just be a quill shot. I might agree with it if it functions as a cone Aoe, to make it at least a little different from seeking shuriken.

-Tornado's picking up debris, bodies and drops to magnify damage I do quite like. though I would point out that I don't think box covers actually have collision or physics for the cover or the shards in the case of corpus and orokin containers that shatter completely. but using standard ammo drops, orbs, and so forth which do have collision and physics would work just as well.

 

And with all that In mind, It still leaves Zephyr Flightless. which for me is a rather significant point. Since she is not designed to be a flightless bird, her design, current powers, and passive all lead toward's being legitimately airborne. as Zephyr predates archwing and has not been revisited or altered at all since then to my knowledge. and we all know that when Zephyr prime eventually comes out they will have a reason to actually Do a rework. what rework they do has never had to be all of a suggestion they are allowed to say "I like this idea from this guy and that chicks idea concerning this power, so we'll put them together" Though with your permission I would like to incorporate your Shrapnel idea into my original post.

[(PSN)theelix]

36 minutes ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Not a bad idea. except:

-I don't think anyone wants to give up Zephyr's current passive.(it's actually pretty useful in many situations) and Bullet jumps while they can be performed in midair i think (i did it once but I cant remember how I managed it) cannot gain any additional altitude. so they would have to adjust that to make it work for just zephyr's passive. and doing bullet jumps in midair are both clumsy and unintuitive. and the real issue is people would most likely really dislike using it due to being clumsy and unwieldy which has in many cases something a lot of reworks aimed to fix. not just making the powers better but making them easier and more organic and intuitive to use.

Though with your permission I would like to incorporate your Shrapnel idea into my original post.

Your bullet jump can change your altitude, but it's also dependent on your momentum. If you're going down at a great speed and look straight up sometimes you'll just balance out and go forward, or the bullet jump will even go straight down anyway. In rare occasions your momentum disappears and you go up again. I was hoping with the infinite aimglide which would stop your downward momentum this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I do agree though, I didn't consider how inconsistent bullet jumping really is sometimes. 

Also, what I meant by infinite aim glide is that you somewhat don't come down until you want to by doing something like a slam attack or bullet jumping at the ground (of course without the long recovery). I also somewhat worded it wrong because I wanted it to be more of a stronger version of her passive now, but just requires that turbulence be active for balance. Not to force that you aim the whole time, that'd be annoying. I was trying to think of giving Zephyr a way to stay in the air without just being Titania.

And I'd be entirely ok with you using any of my ideas. I think the quills would be a nice addition too though, because maybe it'd be able to have synergy. Like, shooting them at the tornadoes adds the puncture effect and increase the damage. 

Edit: Maybe add it to the channeled 3 by pressing it while it's active, but this would require the deactivate of said ability to be a hold button. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by (PS4)theelix

[Desdemona-XI]

Updated and Revised Idea slightly. and Included Idea elements from (PS4)theelix

[Neightrix]

I think a better passive might simply be to replace her air jump with the ability to float upwards with the jump button. Then you can control how fast you descend or stay in the air - while not having to wait so long just to get back to the ground. Would want to someone to playtest that of course, could be wonky even if it gives the player more control.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

That's probably the worst defense I've ever heard.

You should be able to pick up allies to help bring them along if they're bad at parkour? Nobody even likes being rifted, why would they enjoy being carried? Sounds like another useless troll skill.

Carry rescue targets because the AI is bad? They teleport to follow you..

Your tailwind distance is low because your duration is low. There is by no means where a bullet jump exceeds Tailwind distance when modded effectively. 

The Zephyr must fly argument because she's a bird is such a tired argument. At least be creative and objective to your own work. The reason why a flying titania works is because of her size. Give Zephyr that same functionality and you'll be bouncing into walls in no time.

[Sanxxieh]

My old suggestions, dunno if any useful or nu, but worth adding here xD

 

Quote

Passive - aming midair makes her never fall until the times on glide expires, she can also glide and bulletjump further (that would replace first ability).

1st power - zephyr flies up and enters a "flight mode" (similar to titania although not archwing based, your toon would still use your arsenal weapons but its powers would change in mechanics) Wings appear at zephyr's backs. Type of wings can be chosen in arsenal in auxilary decoration.

2nd power:
ground mode - zephyr screeches temporary stunning enemies rendering them open to finishers
flight mode - zephyr rushes at the targetted enemy like a hawk and attacks them dealing high damage and knocks them down, on the impact unleashes a shockwave knocking enemies around the target. This ends flight mode.

3rd power:
ground mode - zephyr calls a wave of wind around self protecting self from bullets and repelling all enemies getting too close. The more enemies repelled, the more energy it consumes. (augment: allows to cast such shield on all allies in range)
flight mode - zephyr calls a wave of wind around enemies causing them to try to forcewalk, moving slower for 5 seconds and being unable to attack for 2 seconds

4th power:
ground mode - zephyr calls a maintained wind blast to the front. All enemies in the wind get repelled strongly, those who were too close get knocked back and ragdolled. Any ally bullet comming to the wave of the wind changes direction to the direction of blast and gets higher puncture status chance and punch through increased by 2. During maintining the power zephyr cannot attack. Energy cost increases every second.
flight mode - zephyr does a few spins in the air calling a tornado which centre is peaceful but edges are deadly. The tornado pulls enemies slowly even from afar to finally trap them in the winds with no escape until the tornado ends. Any damage caused to the tornado is also caused to the enemies inside it but damage is halved. Heavy units and bosses cannot be trapped in the wind, but still they'll be pulled.

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I am thinking DE may wait to tweak Zephyr after Plains of Eidolon.

•Since she should be able to traverse the larger map faster than others 

•Also Divebomb height scaling could see a boost dependent on Open-Map (If we get more open maps like Plains of Eidolon, it may allow Zephyr to be amazing)

 

That said I am in favor of changes listed, especially Divebomb being implemented into Tailwind.

Well written change proposal.

 

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/17/2017 at 4:29 PM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I am thinking DE may wait to tweak Zephyr after Plains of Eidolon.

•Since she should be able to traverse the larger map faster than others 

•Also Divebomb height scaling could see a boost dependent on Open-Map (If we get more open maps like Plains of Eidolon, it may allow Zephyr to be amazing)

 

That said I am in favor of changes listed, especially Divebomb being implemented into Tailwind.

Well written change proposal.

 

I was thinking much the same, hence posting it now, cause DE still would have to code and test so they might be looking for ideas now, or soon. hard to predict when they will want to rework what frame but Plains and zephyr just feels sensible for me.

 

I actually had a moment on zephyr using tailwind aerial launch on mars regularly exceeding the map ceiling on many map tiles. so I think first they should lift the existing ceilings enough to at least allow a zephyr to take advantage of her height dependent powers on the relatively few open sky map tiles especially when larger indoor map tiles actually have a higher ceiling.

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/17/2017 at 2:47 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

That's probably the worst defense I've ever heard.

You should be able to pick up allies to help bring them along if they're bad at parkour? Nobody even likes being rifted, why would they enjoy being carried? Sounds like another useless troll skill.

Carry rescue targets because the AI is bad? They teleport to follow you..

Your tailwind distance is low because your duration is low. There is by no means where a bullet jump exceeds Tailwind distance when modded effectively. 

The Zephyr must fly argument because she's a bird is such a tired argument. At least be creative and objective to your own work. The reason why a flying titania works is because of her size. Give Zephyr that same functionality and you'll be bouncing into walls in no time.

Firstly Not nobody likes being rifted.

I'm usually fairly thankful for a well timed rift and will often rift myself when following a Limbo as I often use caster-frames and the energy regen boost is quite helpful much of the time along with invulnerability. and its so easy to just cancel out of it at will.

And Yes they Do teleport to follow you. after a certain range, meanwhile those bombards might down them and then you have to try run all the way back to them. and sometimes they mess up to the point of ending up outside the map and instantly failing the mission. Carrying them yourself would frankly just be more efficient and somewhat safer, especially in speed run situations

 

and the counter argument for titania's size being the only redeeming aspect of her flight is equally tired. fact is, if you have that much trouble controlling flight then maybe a flying frame or archwing isn't for you. it is not hard to keep titania's flight not just in the middle line of a hallway (while shooting) but I've been able to keep mostly apace with another frame's left shoulder before. Not perfectly apace as the move speeds differ a bit but decently enough that Niether I nor the other frame were blocking eachother's shots. Sure a full sized flight may be a little harder to control. especially depending on how wings and weapons are arranged. but realistically if the warframe's hitbox is kept mostly the same size, maybe widened a little it would not be impossible to control. the reason it isnt done is because archwings are designed at a substantial size. Zephyr would reasonably require far less to get her off the ground.

And the reason Zephyr having flight is a "tired" argument is because it's an obvious one. at the time of her creation she was the closest to a frame capable of flight. prior to bullet jumps her limited airborne capacity made her one of the most Mobile frames (not neccisarily the fastest but she could get nearly anywhere) Her design, powers, name, motif, all lean very strongly to "this thing should be able to fly." Heck she had the First ever passive ability on a warframe for the sole purpose of giving her more command of the air. Ironically None of titania's other powers except her passive has anything to do with flight other then making enemies float around.

And the fact is, Most zephyr fans Want her to fly or atleast be able to remain airborne at altitudes for longer periods. she's not a ground based frame and isn't meant to be played from the ground.

[(PSN)Kai_Naputi]

I just wanna say. YAASSSS QUEEN YAASSSS! Just! Yes! Thanks you! For Articulating everything I never knew I needed from Zephyr, especially how Titania flies like a bird of prey and Zephyr is literally meant to fly but can't. This is literally nothing in the form of critique, just things I though you should know and anyone who wants to read.

1: I say to correct yourselves to the people saying turbulence is OP. I give you Titania's evasion in AW form, Wukong's Deny, Wukong's Cloud Walker, Nezha's Warding Halo, Chroma's Frost Armor Build, need I go on? Let Zephyr have her defense and leave it be. Also, to the one guy who said the flamethrower damage was a bug of some sort, how was it a bug for how long since she came out? Hrm? That ain't no bug honey, that's part of the balancing.

2: I love everything that you put into making this rework, especially the emphasis you made on not wanting this to be a Titania 2.0, which would be stupid (not only because Zephyr came before Titania) because it would take away what made Zephyr unique. I particularly loved the fact that you made the comment that you don't want the rework to come to make Zephyr only useable in the Plains rather than on any mission and that really speaks to the soul right there.

3: Lastly, Zephyr is one of the least played Warframes, this, we all know. And it's so beautiful to see that you, the creator of the thread, are so open to tweaking everything and seeing the faults in your own plans. So it's really cool to see the collaboration you're putting into this because, let's face it, no meta frame people are gonna be here telling us how to fix Zephyr cuz they ain't thinking twice about her. This is just the collective Zephyr sympathizers and Zephyr mains' ideas to toss around and see what would really keep Zephyr at the forefront of our minds.

So, thank you!

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

23 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

And the fact is, Most zephyr fans Want her to fly or atleast be able to remain airborne at altitudes for longer periods. she's not a ground based frame and isn't meant to be played from the ground.

Which I'm not opposed to but your methods fail to take into consideration the players who don't like archwing mechanics. You're ignoring those who do not like being rifted or having another player manipulate your controls even for a moment. 

If you've visited the forums for longer than a week you'd know the countless amount of threads that complain against these features which you are so persistent to emulate. The argument isn't that Zephyr doesn't need a rework but that her rework must stick to theme while bringing out the best parts Warframe has to offer, instead of copy pasta.

[Desdemona-XI]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Which I'm not opposed to but your methods fail to take into consideration the players who don't like archwing mechanics. You're ignoring those who do not like being rifted or having another player manipulate your controls even for a moment. 

If you've visited the forums for longer than a week you'd know the countless amount of threads that complain against these features which you are so persistent to emulate. The argument isn't that Zephyr doesn't need a rework but that her rework must stick to theme while bringing out the best parts Warframe has to offer, instead of copy pasta.

I've been here three years and I still don't get the fuss against Archwing mechanics. And noone that I've asked has actually pointed out what part of the mechanics bothers them.

its literally the same as regular warframe. just without a floor/gravity involved. you aim. you shoot. you dash, you roll. and you hit things with a sword. okay if you flick on experimental Flight you might have a bit of a time with motion sickness as it gives full freedom of flight. And if you're so attached to your floor why would you want an aerial frame or jetpack in the first place? and if it's the raw mechanics you hate so much, How are you able to tolerate warframe on the ground then? Archwing is kept almost perfectly optional. half the time in hybrid levels such as uranus the archwing section is frankly dissapointingly small. it's also Perfectly optional to not keep and use a warframe forever and ever. Archwing and it's mechanics are pretty much here to stay. its been two damn years now.

As far as people who whine about being rifted and having to roll out of it. sure, because free energy and invulnerability is so terrible, powers cross the rift, weapons don't Weapons also dont have one round of ammo. sure some people can be griefing asses about it, but then some people also intentionally hit themselves with radiaton procs so they can damage teammates, People who wanna grief are gonna grief, they should be reported and handled rather then having the game suffer to make people play nice. and if it really is such an issue for you. just dont squad with a troll-limbo. And yes being continously rifted is irritating, but then there's no button to opt out of being rifted, I suggested one for zephyr's pickup: being unable to pick up crouched players. sure it could operate on a accept-deny basis too. I doubt it will as that sort of thing becomes quickly unwieldy

I would be all for an option opting out of abilities like that. just to placate the people who i frankly feel are overreacting whiners.  and I don't have any elegant solutions for that problem myself other then Reporting repeated Griefers and having them appropriately penalized. or simply leaving squad when a greifer is there. But that's not the focus of this forum post.

This post is about My personal opinion and idea concerning a zephyr rework. I enjoy flying. I think its ridiculous that they gave titania flight before zephyr. I think it makes sense thematically and having her be slightly more support/utility oriented with the design of her flight would make it feel different. enough despite how relatively similar these two frames already are even without flight in the mix

 

And I agree it should draw from the best parts of warframe. But I feel archwing IS one of the best parts of warframe. I don't expect DE to make new flight mechanics just for zephyr and I am quite sure noone else realistically does either. So if zephyr flies, it's likely going to be with archwing mechanics, to me that's a fair tradeoff but then this is MY idea and MY opinion. you don't have to agree with with it. DE has not yet utterly rebuilt a core game mechanic around a frame, or reworked a frame from the ground up on that kind of a scale as some people suggest with zephyr. why? maybe because it's their game, and they don't see the need for it. maybe because they're so busy trying to get Plains ready or the next event or the next to satisfy the army of aged veteran players who are sour because they've placed themselves so far beyond the actual endgame of warframe that they cant think of anything to do.

I don't like Volt but you don't hear me whining about volt being reworked into something else so that I can enjoy him. I simply just don't play volt, I even reccomend Volt because I know he has the capacity to be quite incredible if you can tolerate using him. And The way you may feel about being rifted, is similar to how I feel about Speed Novas. I've seen enough occasions where a speed nova got her squad killed, usually because said nova is in a public group full of people who aren't built to deal with a speed nova. Limbo's just as irritating and equally very rarely fatal. I don't insult every speed nova out there. or ask for a way for speed nova to be cancelled. because there is an upshot to a speednova. same as there is to being rifted. I prefer not to play with one however.

 

So Before you say I am being careless of the people who don't like being rifted. Note I posted the only sort of solution I could think of.

And yes I concede that I am not very thoughtful  regarding people who can't stand archwing. because I literally Cannot understand their issue with it.

However, Please DO note that I have made allowance for people not to have to use zephyr's flight, which is also part of why I placed it on a lower skill number, you dont *have* to fly as titania (though it being her ult does more strongly suggest that you do) so why should you have to use flight mode as zephyr? even if you opt to ignore and ever use that skill, my rework still leaves zephyr slightly improved overall and retains her existing turbulence functionality.

But wanting zephyr to fly is quite simply dear to me and dear to a lot of zephyr fans. So I am of the opinion. they don't have to use zephyr's flight, or even zephyr as a frame.

 

No frame is built for everyone's tastes. its simply not possible. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Desdemona-XI
Fixed a typo and added a bit more clarification