Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[Nez-Kal]

Just now, DeltaPangaea said:

Thinking on it, I kind of wish that DE ran polls for stuff like this. Putting out like three possible designs for a deluxe skin and seeing which one the community actually... y'know. Wants. BEFORE starting to go ahead and model it.

It would stop things like this happening and overall result in skins that more people want to buy. All for the cost of... like two more pieces of concept art?

Do that and Fans are going to complain "Ugh! Ember Delux Supremacy" was the OBVIOUS and Best Choice so OF COURSE the Dumb Fans of this Game DIDN'T Choose It!!!!"

Also, as Augment Mods and Design Council have proven, DE doesn't even listen to their polls.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 minute ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Also, as Augment Mods and Design Council have proven, DE doesn't even listen to their polls.

And thus, we hit the crux.

Not listening.

[z4gara]

I like the new Ember skin. I bought it. Didn't like the previous concept by IgnusDei.

[Morgul]

i saw it today ingame and im just sad :( only one deluxe per frame, rip ember

[EtherealSlasher]

It looks too similar to the original ember look so it didn't feel worth it to me. Ended up getting the majesty skin instead and don't regret it. 

Frost got a very different look in his deluxe, Trinity got a different look that strayed a bit from her original appearance, etc. The Ember deluxe next to a regular ember skin looks too similar for me to want to buy into it.

[MirageKnight]

What truly baffles me about all this...is DE's logic behind their decisions.

Deluxe skins are obviously there to make DE a bit of money while giving a new look to a 'Frame that people either already like or are passing up because it looks dull or unappealing. That being said, it makes perfect sense for DE to go with a skin that they know a large percentage of the player-base will like or have given their approval on previously. You make more money and increase customer satisfaction and retain customer interest.

So to me it makes little to no sense to go and release a skin that a large number of people gave their very public and vocal disapproval on a while back.

Honestly DE, what makes you think that lots of people will go and buy a cosmetic item that said people previously said they didn't find appealing? You're going to earn far less money and you're going to build up a reputation of being a company that's really out of touch with its player-base - and that is going to ultimately hurt your revenue. Not only that, but your artist spent a good chunk of paid time working on something that only a really small percentage of the player-base will actually use.

DE, You're not being smart about all this.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

What truly baffles me about all this...is DE's logic behind their decisions.

Deluxe skins are obviously there to make DE a bit of money while giving a new look to a 'Frame that people either already like or are passing up because it looks dull or unappealing. That being said, it makes perfect sense for DE to go with a skin that they know a large percentage of the player-base will like or have given their approval on previously. You make more money and increase customer satisfaction and retain customer interest.

So to me it makes little to no sense to go and release a skin that a large number of people gave their very public and vocal disapproval on a while back.

Honestly DE, what makes you think that lots of people will go and buy a cosmetic item that said people previously said they didn't find appealing? You're going to earn far less money and you're going to build up a reputation of being a company that's really out of touch with its player-base - and that is going to ultimately hurt your revenue. Not only that, but your artist spent a good chunk of paid time working on something that only a really small percentage of the player-base will actually use.

DE, You're not being smart about all this.

I think DE knows more about their finances than some forum marketer. 

I've already seen a few people with the skin, about as much as I've seen other skins on release. 

This vocal minority on the forum means nothing is de has internal metrics that show people still buy.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, EtherealSlasher said:

It looks too similar to the original ember look so it didn't feel worth it to me. Ended up getting the majesty skin instead and don't regret it. 

Frost got a very different look in his deluxe, Trinity got a different look that strayed a bit from her original appearance, etc. The Ember deluxe next to a regular ember skin looks too similar for me to want to buy into it.

This is my biggest criticism with her body. It couldve been wilder. 

Personally, I love the helm and wish the body went with more of a fire roster punk rock theme. 

[VoxGray]

The main problem I have with Ember deluxe is that it doesn't seem like a deluxe. It seems like a Tennogen with some added attachments. There's no distinct change to her silhouette, nor a drastic difference regarding textures or materials. Overall, it just looks like Ember with feathers, and it's disappointing because of that. If I wanted my Ember to look like a cockatoo, I'd just use the Phoenix helmet. Deluxe skins are supposed to be a second take on what the Warframe represents, and Ember Vermilion failed in that regard. It's for this same reason that I dislike the Proto Excalibur skin, though that can at least be excused as pure fanservice.

Edited November 4, 2017 by EmissaryOfInfinity

[(PSN)Semi_Purp]

On 2/11/2017 at 12:36 PM, xXDeadsinxX said:

As of Update 22.2.0, the Nekros and Ember deluxe skin bundles came out. They both look absolutely incredible, good job on the deluxe skins DE! 

But on to the issue at hand. Players are going crazy on Ember’s deluxe skin because they wanted the old original concept, which I can understand from their perspective because I liked the old concept as well. However, we got a total 100% different deluxe skin. Which in my opinion, I love it, the skin looks amazing!

To all the players out there that are mad at DE for doing what they’re doing for choosing the other deluxe skin instead of the original concept, please calm down, the hate needs to stop. It is seriously getting out of hand.

If you don’t like the skin, no need to get pitchforks and hate DE.

You know, the reason we have this skin is because of a Mohawk.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think DE knows more about their finances than some forum marketer. 

I've already seen a few people with the skin, about as much as I've seen other skins on release. 

This vocal minority on the forum means nothing is de has internal metrics that show people still buy.

Except they can't have metrics on what people will like visually.

The only information they have on how well a cosmetic will sell is people's feedback prior to it coming out, and Vermilion's feedback was incredibly negative. The fact they released it anyway means that they either A) don't actually care, or B) were already significantly far along in the process of modeling when they first revealed it and didn't want to start over.

[KIREEK]

I actually enjoy the new skin and will likely buy it in the future, the issue that still plagues many deluxe skins is the helmet that can't get the stats of the arcane helmets, because of that i still choose the regular skin and the regular arcane helmet to go along with it.

[Terrornaut]

2 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

The main problem I have with Ember deluxe is that it doesn't seem like a deluxe. It seems like a Tennogen with some added attachments. There's no distinct change to her silhouette, nor a drastic difference regarding textures or materials. Overall, it just looks like Ember with feathers, and it's disappointing because of that. If I wanted my Ember to look like a cockatoo, I'd just use the Phoenix helmet. Deluxe skins are supposed to be a second take on what the Warframe represents, and Ember Vermilion failed in that regard. It's for this same reason that I dislike the Proto Excalibur skin, though that can at least be excused as pure fanservice.

This is basically my feeling. Its not that I dislike it, they just didn't go with that new look and aesthetic that is so different with the deluxe skins compared to the original skins (which I still often love).

 

They pushed for craziness yes, but, they didn't push in the other areas I think mattered more and kept a more unified/consistent thematic look.  Basically it didn't fulfill expectations, which is felt more extremely in my case because this is the skin I've been looking forward to for actual years and its just not in the same realm as trinity/banshee/mag/rhino/obe/ash for example.

[six3rz]

guys, can anyone who bought 'chicken' skin, upload a screen of that skin with phoenix helmet? i wonder how that combo look like.

[Rhekemi]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:10 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I'm actually surprised that you guys, a team of developers who are so well known for always listening and being engaged with their community would go through with a skin that the community was so vocal about. You guys knew that the community was not enjoying the skin you presented to us.

 

I, for one, am not surprised. Not one bit. As I said in another thread (that was rolled into the Ember deluxe skin megathread), DE has never had an obligation to listen to the community on artistic vision and aesthetic feedback.

Unfortunately, many people didn't understand this and are now, somehow, shocked that DE ignored the community's wishes.

Our voices do matter. We should be heard. But our voices are more potent in certain contexts and concerning certain aspects of the game than others. This isn't me saying we should never speak up (or shouldn't have complained about Ember), it's me saying people need to also face reality (and history: Nova Asuri went through even though many hated it) and adjust their expectations accordingly.

I will say this again. 

DE trusts us with and implores us to give, largely, gameplay feedback.

We are gamers first. Our expertise having played their game for years, and other games for longer than that, is our most valuable opinion to DE, and they do welcome it. Even though they are professional game developers, the gaming world is such a symbiotic world (between gamers and devs), or at least it often should be, that it's the most natural thing in the world for developers to listen to us despite most of us not being professional game developers. There are also other companies that listen to their community like DE does, but maybe not as much.

This doesn't mean they won't listen to us on ongoing design (sound, level, art), designs that help them improve their existing vision or fix what is wrong with something. (Say, a sound not sounding right for a specific gun. That's something we can tell them and they'd listen. Or cloth not falling right. They'd fix that because it's in line with their vision, their cloth physics. Or PBR, making metals and golds look more realistic and less like plastic.)

What DE, and any artistic department probably, will not do is take a design back to the drawing board because we hate it. Let me be blunt: the majority of us have no artistic or design expertise, no years spent studying art design academically or casually.

The art department does have years spent academically (and casually in their own time, I'd imagine) training, honing their talent, putting in hard work, and then working professionally doing what they love. Unlike game development at large, there is no symbiotic relationship between artists and the community of gamers.

I do believe we can influence them, but those of us that can are a minority (unlike how a majority of us as gamers can offer feedback). That minority is, you guessed it, those more artistically inclined, those who have also spent years casually and academically learning about artwork.

This is evidenced by DE taking on freelance talent from the community like IgnusDei and creating TennoGen, and embracing the fan designs (as inspiration) of Volkovyi (creator of the original Zephyr design), and the member who made the Atlas/brawler design, and the member who created the Dragon Frame which inspired Chroma.

My point, again, is that the DE (art department) is a tight-knit group of talented artists who don't rely on the symbiotic feedback relationship in quite the same way DE (developers at large) does on game mechanics, gameplay, the way the game works.

I'd also note that there are many individuals who have studied art academically and casually in the community and those people are embraced in various ways (fan contests, Prime Time concepts, cosplay spotlights). DE genuinely loves that so many members of the community "get" their artistic vision, the look and feel of their game, and DE celebrates it. That should never be expected to translate into actionable feedback in the way our gameplay feedback does.

However, what most people who objected wanted was a skin designed by someone who did meet DE's art team's high bar for quality, who understood their artistic vision, and was able to capture it in works of his own (complete with his own style): IgnusDei.

There is no rhyme or reason why DE cannot implement IgnusDei's skin, that I can think of. Frost Harka and Mag Pnuema prove this. 

Well, actually, the one reason I can think of is it's a personnel issue. It's conjecture, but having been in similar atmospheres for over a decade, sometimes it isn't about the "thing" (the deluxe skin, in this case), it's about what happened, what went down around it.

I hope that isn't the case, but if it is, I sincerely wish DE and IgnusDei finally bury the hatchet over what happened, what was said, what was done at the time, mend their relationship, and work together again.

DE's art team and IgnusDei were great collaborators until they weren't. Once that's fixed, if it can be, all the deluxe skins we could ever hope for (including one for Ember) could follow.

 

Quote

EDIT : By contract, Digital Extremes is not allowed to use Ignus's design in any form, sorry guys.

 

Reminder: please edit this out of your original post. IngusDei has already corrected you in a post above.

On 11/1/2017 at 7:46 PM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I'll be direct, I have never liked Ember's models. Normal or Prime. Every time I login to my PC account, I wish I had a little cash to throw at the Ember Graxx. I have a gorgeous color setup for it on my console account, it's one of my few successful fashionframes.

  Hide contents

Lighting conceals the colors, but take my word for it: it's really nice.

Ember doesn't have much of an identity in her appearance, outside of the bulky thigh ornaments and the crest, That goes for the Prime, too. So the DX was going to be a departure one way or another. But there's just a lot about the skin that looks... like part of a different frame, I guess? Not Zephyr specifically, I just get the strong impression that some parts don't belong there. The pauldrons feel bizarre, partly because of the shape at the tips, but also the thickness. They don't gel with the rest of the model. The feathers on the thighs look okay, but the ones on the arms? They look like they were stapled on. I actually like the helm, but the crest feels odd because of the thinness of her midriff. She's the wrong kind of top-heavy. If it were separate ribs instead of a single solid crest, it would look a lot cleaner. (Just realized it is...)

I have difficulty putting words to my aesthetics when it comes to art, partly because it takes me a while to decide how I feel about something. Wish I could give more detailed feedback, there's definitely more I'm iffy about.

That's the thing about art for those of us who aren't students and practitioners: we know what we like and don't like, but can't often put it into words. It's still more than enough to say "I don't like this" even if you don't know why. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all our tastes, our likes and dislikes, are valid.

Don't ever feel less than because you can't articulate it. (But it's also okay to think about it hard and put it into your own words.)

On 11/1/2017 at 9:07 PM, ZoneDymo said:

Lastly if you design something with the mentality that everyone must like it, you are doing it wrong.
The best things are polarizing, some like it, some dont, it keeps variation going.

2

While we disagree on a lot, there's much truth to this. Art isn't about pleasing everyone, in its ideal form, and it cannot please everyone.

But art (and I include my field, writing, in that umbrella term) can also be commercial. Commercial art (like commercial writing) still won't please everyone, but it should please the majority of its target audience.

The target audience in this case (Warframe community) isn't happy. I'm glad to see some people step up and say they like the skin and use it, though.

I also don't feel all the hating some have done (and are doing) is necessary. If you don't like it, state it with conviction and clarity, but don't bash. Then don't buy the skin and let it rot.

In this case, the majority, I believe, was right: the skin wasn't appealing (to put it diplomatically).

On 11/1/2017 at 9:12 PM, Kelshiso said:

Snip

 

That was a great read, and I think it captures what was so truly baffling about the skin in ways I couldn't word any better. Beautifully articulated. It seemed as if it had no coherent or pleasing vision behind it. If there was, the vision fell flat.

Rather than go forward with it, I wish someone on the art team worked with the design's primary artist (there had to be one, right?) to improve it. Even if the art team wouldn't trust the majority of us, someone on the art team should have been able to reach their co-worker(s) and say, "How can we improve this and stay in line with your vision?"

That said, I don't think the relationship of a graphic design student and a teacher/professor/fellow artist/student is the same as an art department and the community that plays the game they design for. The incentive to listen, and to learn, isn't there in the way it was for you (and the art department way back when) when you were in school. Or can you tell me most professional artists would be open to the gaming public telling them to "go back to the drawing board."

I understand your comment as an ideal, and your point about being open to negative (even harsh) criticism is welcome. But I'd just like you to also acknowledge that the dynamic is different.

Lastly, despite what I said about us not being able to give actionable feedback to the art department, I believe we were right (as right as one can be about artistic taste): the skin was a poor design, and they should have heeded our feedback in some way. But part of me feels it couldn't have been easy to find the constructive, well-worded stuff that would've reached them in the sea of "this skin is horrendous!", "bring back IgnusDei's skin!", and "this is ugly!".

I wish they could have found those posts and comments, the good constructive ones like yours above, and taken something positive from them. Or, as noted earlier, that their own co-workers would have helped them improve the skin.

On 11/3/2017 at 2:31 PM, IgnusDei said:

I'm sorry, but what? Who told you this?

Look, just to set the record straight: As I understand it, DE has full rights to the Ember Deluxe 1.0 design, otherwise they would not have been able to display those changes to the artwork on the devstream.

Preach.

On 11/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

They were also able to use the Mag skin as well so i don't see why they didn't use the ember one even when it's what majority wanted 

Tell 'em.

On 11/3/2017 at 5:39 PM, AerinSol said:

They created a Memeframe.

 

Just as Kelshio accurately captured my feelings (many of our feelings) on what was wrong with the skin, with wit and brevity you nail it as well.

Like others have pointed out that they went too far with the "chicken" theme, part of me honestly believes they did and thought it'd be a hit (Warframe is nothing if it isn't defined by its meme culture).

The problem is, well, how can I be nice about it? It wasn't a loveable, powerful, cute, sexy, magnificent, vengeful, or majestic looking chicken. It wasn't as subtle as her vanilla and prime, either. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Rhekemi
So many typos and errors.

[DeltaPangaea]

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

-snip-

Nice post, but just a note on the 'where our feedback is wanted' bit...

It is very VERY easy to play games and still have NO IDEA how to properly design them, or what's healthy for a game environment. They might think they do, but it's easy to not regardless. By contrast though, everyone knows if they like what they're looking at. Someone can't THINK they hate something but actually like it. They may not be able to properly articulate WHY they feel that way, but someone saying 'I hate it' is still feedback. It may not tell you what to fix, but just because it's not constructive doesn't make it any less valid. They still dislike it. As an artist making a product to sell to people, if they don't like it and nobody's telling you why, then it's up to you to FIND OUT why.

I would trust the general population to tell me if something I designed looks ugly more than if my game is balanced or not.

[Rhekemi]

On 11/5/2017 at 12:06 AM, DeltaPangaea said:

Nice post, but just a note on the 'where our feedback is wanted' bit...

It is very VERY easy to play games and still have NO IDEA how to properly design them, or what's healthy for a game environment. They might think they do, but it's easy to not regardless. By contrast though, everyone knows if they like what they're looking at. Someone can't THINK they hate something but actually like it. They may not be able to properly articulate WHY they feel that way, but someone saying 'I hate it' is still feedback. It may not tell you what to fix, but just because it's not constructive doesn't make it any less valid. They still dislike it. As an artist making a product to sell to people, if they don't like it and nobody's telling you why, then it's up to you to FIND OUT why.

I would trust the general population to tell me if something I designed looks ugly more than if my game is balanced or not.

If you read my full post, you'll note I mentioned those points already:

On 11/4/2017 at 9:55 PM, Rhekemi said:

That's the thing about art for those of us who aren't students and practitioners: we know what we like and don't like, but can't often put it into words. It's still more than enough to say "I don't like this" even if you don't know why. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all our tastes, our likes and dislikes, are valid.

Don't ever feel less than because you can't articulate it. (But it's also okay to think about it hard and put it into your own words.)

[...]

While we disagree on a lot, there's much truth to this. Art isn't about pleasing everyone, in its ideal form, and it cannot please everyone.

But art (and I include my field, writing, in that umbrella term) can also be commercial. Commercial art (like commercial writing) still won't please everyone, but it should please the majority of its target audience.

The target audience in this case (Warframe community) isn't happy. I'm glad to see some people step up and say they like the skin and use it, though.

I also don't feel all the hating some have done (and are doing) is necessary. If you don't like it, state it with conviction and clarity, but don't bash. Then don't buy the skin and let it rot.

In this case, the majority, I believe, was right: the skin wasn't appealing (to put it diplomatically).

1

2

Above, I make it perfectly clear that our opinions matter on art, even if we can't articulate it. However, that doesn't necessarily translate into actionable feedback and once you take that into consideration, you adjust your expectations to reality. It was unrealistic to think if we complained enough we'd move the art department. I still agree with our right to complain (just not with the notion of petitioning or trying to force them to dump the skin and adopt IngusDei's). 

What you're disagreeing with is the notion that our feedback was never going to make the art team budge. Unfortunately, it turned out as I'd outlined earlier--they didn't budge. We can disagree about why they didn't, but I think my reasoning on why they didn't budge is sound.

To address your point on gameplay, you're not entirely wrong, but you aren't right either.

The difference with gameplay is we've learned to understand mechanics, game design, how games work, passively, intuitively, and through experience playing them. I'll qualify that by saying we've learned to understand them to a degree. There are loads of suggestions we make that would break the game if DE took them on without review or running it through their own game design formulas and principles. 

But look at the forum or the subreddit when something in-game is wrong and the community sets to work taking it apart. Mechanically, the community is often spot on with their feedback because the systems that make the game work (or not work) can be judged on an empirical basis--meaning there's data, hard facts, math, economics behind the feedback. It can be assessed on an empirical basis.

We've seen community members do this time and time again, and it allows them to give incredibly useful actionable feedback.

Keep in mind that another reason why our feedback on gameplay is so helpful is because DE engages in that symbiotic relationship I mentioned above: they share, they teach us some of the principles they're working with, they explain why this is, and why that is, and we remember (and often hold them to those principles when they stray).

The flipside is I don't think the art team shares their creative process as much. They might design a skin and show it off for comments, they might live-sculpt something, but it isn't the same as DE working through the reasoning behind gameplay stuff, the idea, the vision, etc.

Even if we don't understand how to build a game as massive as Warframe, from scratch, and keep it alive for 4 years, it's often very possible for us to understand the systems at play that make the game work--especially because we've been playing the game for years, and other games as well.

Commentary on artwork that breaks down why a design does or doesn't work (while using and understanding the fundamentals that artwork is built on) is far less common.

But even when you set aside the people who don't understand the fundamentals (to any degree) of game design or artistic design, our feedback as gamers still outweighs our feedback on artistic design.

Game: "I can't pass this stupid level! It's impossible."

Art: "I can't use this skin. It's ugly!"

While we believe all our feedback is helpful, and to a degree it is, one of those statements is more valuable to the game developers than the other. This is true even though neither works out why it's impossible/ugly.

The art statement doesn't take into account how the design strays from the original vision for the 'frame and is a hodgepodge of themes that only make half-sense. The gameplay statement doesn't understand that the boss is bugged and has an immunity phase for the duration of the mission.

Even if the commenter on the art understood what was wrong with the artwork down to a fundamental level, there'd still be less of an incentive to take that feedback into consideration because artwork, often, cannot be empirically judged the way the rest of a game's design can.

You can't say someone just "doesn't understand, doesn't get that the math for the damage a weapon/boss is putting out, and the math might work for someone else" when they actually do, and the math is wrong (meaning something has to be fixed).

But you can say that someone just "doesn't get the vision behind a deluxe skin, and it might work for someone else" because we've seen exactly that so far: some people actually like the skin, because it's art, and it comes down to taste sometimes. Ugly to me isn't ugly to you. What is beautiful to you isn't beautiful to me. But math is math and physics are physics. Their rules are hard and fast.

It's a grayer area for feedback than the rest of the game, which is one of my points. (But see my point about commercial art quoted above as well.)

I think the whole issue is a lot grayer than the staunchest haters of the skin are admitting. It isn't that black-and-white.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Rhekemi
Edited for clarity and typos.

[DeltaPangaea]

51 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

-snip-

I do know that it's a subjective matter, and that some people like it, but when you're making a product for a group of people and present a preview, and the majority of the feedback you get is negative, that doesn't mean you just go 'well I guess some people will like it' and keep going.

And even 'I hate it' as feedback has value in great enough numbers. It tells you that this person hates it. If one person hates it and decides to let you know, well then that's that. Some people are prone to speaking their mind. But ten people? twenty? thirty? The more people tell you that they hate something, the more likely it is that the thing just doesn't appeal to many people.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a design to change between concept art and actual modeling, and I don't know why it didn't if it got so much pushback. Apparently they said they'd add more flame effects to it, and have now not done so, which is also concerning. I want to know why.

And that's basically what's irritating me the most. We aren't TOLD things. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. We don't know why they went with this when they do actually have the legal rights to the initial concept Ignus made. We don't know why they stuck with the current design after the negative response. We don't know why it doesn't have the flame effects they said they'd add.

Similarly we don't know what the hell they're thinking with Focus. We don't know what the hell they're doing with how EMPTY Cetus is, we don't know SO MUCH about what the hell's going on, and Devstream 100 suffered a DEARTH of answers.

[Issxi]

Absolutely love her Deluxe skin. One of the better ones imo. DE hopefully doesn't edit or change it or I will be a very unhappy camper. I spent plat on what it is now, so it shouldn't get changed.

[Rhekemi]

On 11/5/2017 at 2:24 AM, DeltaPangaea said:

I don't think it's unreasonable for a design to change between concept art and actual modeling, and I don't know why it didn't if it got so much pushback. Apparently they said they'd add more flame effects to it, and have now not done so, which is also concerning. I want to know why.

And that's basically what's irritating me the most. We aren't TOLD things. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. We don't know why they went with this when they do actually have the legal rights to the initial concept Ignus made. We don't know why they stuck with the current design after the negative response. We don't know why it doesn't have the flame effects they said they'd add.

2

As you can see above, we agree on this 100%: the art team's direction and vision is a black box. I'm not sure how that can change if they're unwilling to change it (and take our feedback into consideration). But it's also true that they get a majority of things right and we love it. They're responsible for a lot of the content we see across different factions, weapons, NPCs and 'frames. 

It's really only the handful of skins we tend to dislike. When you're doing great on the majority of assets (and only get an outcry on a few things), one has to wonder how receptive you'd be to feedback and at what point the community could give you too much feedback. I don't want art by committee and I suspect you don't either.

RE Legal rights: this has been consistently shot down by members (I brought it up once in the megathread and stood corrected) including IgnusDei. There's no legal reason DE couldn't have added the IgnusDei skin. None. Frost Harka and Mag Pneuma were completed and added to the game after his departure. (I can't remember if Ash Koga was after, but it might've been. @IgnusDei ?)

Quote

Similarly we don't know what the hell they're thinking with Focus. We don't know what the hell they're doing with how EMPTY Cetus is, we don't know SO MUCH about what the hell's going on, and Devstream 100 suffered a DEARTH of answers.

I haven't been following the streams or the game's progress for a while, but I'll catch up one of these days. But yes, for as much as they tell us about their vision for the game, there's a lot they don't tell us.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Rhekemi
Edited for clarity and typos.

[Hypernaut1]

I think it takes a lot more than a simple disagreement to burn bridges like that.

We don't know exactly what happened, but I'm assuming it was a pretty serious offense. DE could tell their side, but they refuse to name and shame and let the artists keep his fanboys.

For all we know a line was crossed and to release that skin in any form would've been salt in a wound they didn't want in their game. I think they have the right to not let an outsider create that kind of tension.

[MeiWIZ]

5 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Absolutely love her Deluxe skin. One of the better ones imo. DE hopefully doesn't edit or change it or I will be a very unhappy camper. I spent plat on what it is now, so it shouldn't get changed.

excuse me...
People who don't like,not customers?
We don't matter?

Edited November 5, 2017 by MeiWIZ

[IgnusDei]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think it takes a lot more than a simple disagreement to burn bridges like that.

We don't know exactly what happened, but I'm assuming it was a pretty serious offense. DE could tell their side, but they refuse to name and shame and let the artists keep his fanboys.

For all we know a line was crossed and to release that skin in any form would've been salt in a wound they didn't want in their game. I think they have the right to not let an outsider create that kind of tension.

I'm aware that I made it sound like I personally marched into DE's offices screaming obscenities, but that simply isn't true. The metaphorical bridge had turned out to be a flimsy thing, and I'm responsible for stressing it too hard... but in the end I wasn't the one that threw the torch that set it on fire.

So yes, all it takes is a simple disagreement.

[Hypernaut1]

24 minutes ago, IgnusDei said:

I'm aware that I made it sound like I personally marched into DE's offices screaming obscenities, but that simply isn't true. The metaphorical bridge had turned out to be a flimsy thing, and I'm responsible for stressing it too hard... but in the end I wasn't the one that threw the torch that set it on fire.

So yes, all it takes is a simple disagreement.

 

You're an awesome artist and I'm sure very passionate about your work and designs. I don't know how much you want to divulge, but would you say that them not releasing that skin was a way to get the final word over your disagreement? Or was it them just wanting to go in a different thematic direction after the blow up? It's not even really necessary to answer.

There's still two sides to story  They specifically said they didn't want to "name and shame", which sounds like more than just a simple disagreement and sharing of opinions. I'm not saying YOU were wrong, but burnt bridges is burnt bridges regardless of where the fire started.  In the end it's their product and they have the right to be comfortable with  working on and releasing what ever contracted work they feel like. 

I personally think both skins are nice, it's not a huge loss. I would've bought either one. Your fantasy designs are awesome (Im rocking the mag skin hard) but it's clearly a theme among your skins that stand out from the rest. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[MirageKnight]

21 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This vocal minority on the forum means nothing is de has internal metrics that show people still buy.

Yeah...you keep on believing we're a "vocal minority". I expected a post like this from you, I'm just surprised that you didn't show up earlier.

 

21 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I've already seen a few people with the skin, about as much as I've seen other skins on release.

You saw a few people with the skin. Well that's nice but all it proves is that a few people like the skin and nothing else. You do know that anecdotal arguments are pretty flimsy, right? 

The real evidence as to what the consensus is on something is the public feedback given on that thing. In this case it's all been predominantly negative and highly critical. So I guess that makes all the people that said "Actually I like this skin" the true "vocal minority" here.

21 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think DE knows more about their finances than some forum marketer

I worked for a major advertising agency for at least 6 years helping with ad campaigns for major resorts in the Caribbean. I'm also a project manager for a major architectural sign company where I live, so I know a thing or two about budgeting  and marketing - and definitely more than you do.

And no, they don't know a thing about properly promoting themselves. No company in their right mind would have spent a ridiculous amount of money taking out ad-space in Times Square and tv spots to advertise the upcoming release of a bug-ridden, weakly balanced BETA build  of a major expansion to a game. That was a huge, risky, and stupid gamble on their part.