Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[LadyMordred]

Having taken a hiatus from Warframe during the time of the original design being revealed, I had no idea of the change. That said, I can 100% say that the Vermillion Deluxe skin is the worst Deluxe skin in my eyes at least and as someone who went out of their way to farm Ember as (technically not) first frame I feel like it was a slap to the face. I even made sure Ember Prime was my first prime, farming for her back in the days we still had keys. Now having been waiting for an Ember Deluxe skin for this long, I get to see it's barely different from the base skin just adding Zeyhpyr feathers and the ugly mohawk.

Reading the DE Admin's message in this thread has only made me more upset as they clearly know they are in the wrong and are trying to shame upset players for being upset (even if a few are going beyond the rest) by saying the artists worked hard. It clearly doesn't look like they did, especially when matters are only worse when I come to the forum curious how other Ember players felt and see the amazing skin we were supposedly promised as comparison.

I know its just my personal opinion to think IgnusDei's design is beautiful and powerful looking, and that I'd have loved to drop $20 or more to buy it for me and a friend I've wanted to repay after they got me the Frost Harka, but considering the response DE got in their devstream, and considering how vocal players (mostly Ember ones, but not restricted to them) have been about wanting the IgnusDei skin,

I feel like we're on the track DE owes the playerbase an apology not the other way around. And the way DE Megan in her post dumped the blame on IgnusDei as well as part of her deflection (essentially saying we get a bad vermillion skin because Ignus argued with them) leaves me, and I hope others of the same mind, that even if Ignus was entirely inappropriate in the incident, her deflection of the issue and poor showing for an admin owes them an apology as well. 

Sadly it is unlikely DE will make amends for this issue. Money is what matters, and people will buy the skin. Whether to give it an honest try out of respect or because they collect everything, because some do like it, or because they want other items in the bundle they're forced to purchase everything else for. Regardless, it would have been nice given that we know DE could have used the earlier Ember Deluxe design that they just used it.

Seeing as they had no problems using Mag's even though they had long broken off working with Ignus. As it stands it just appears they are being spiteful to the Design in particular since they continued using the others Ignus provided, which is truly disheartening given that in some ways that is even more a lack of respect to the artist as well as the players who wanted the design when we are given a subpar replacement. 

For those who do like the Vermillion skin, I am happy that what was given does appeal to you though I believe from the devstream, forums, and most people in game I've spoken to, it would have been nice to get what we were promised at the start.

 

[UncaIroh]

I still like ember prime better than either deluxe skin. I wasn't sold on the charcoal woman in a skintight suit, and the punk chicken just felt off. It seemed like c viper and birdie (from street fighter) had a pyromaniac lovechild.

She might have been better off looking like a fire atronach from elder scrolls but that would make any sense in sharkwing.

[Orabell]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Okay, I am one comment away from closing this thread.

You want to close an active discussion because you found an answer that fits your narrative? 

[Orabell]

19 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

IgnusDei's hard work and love were never in dispute, but:

1) I'm positive if the art team produced a deluxe skin for Ember that the majority loved, one that was superior to IgnusDei's or just as good, one that blew our minds, "all of this" wouldn't be happening right now.

Some would still ask for IgnusDei's skin, but all of this wouldn't be as prevalent. The community's as vocal as it is now because the Vermillion skin A) isn't as good and B) Ignus' Mag and Frost's skins were added to the game without issue.

2) For an Ember Deluxe skin, DE had to choose between supporting the hard work of their current employees at the art department and IgnusDei's hard work which the art department disagrees with or doesn't want. Regardless of whether the art department's reasons are petty or perfectly reasonable, I think DE made the right choice.

To be blunt, if I have to choose between giving the community a skin they want and going against the wishes of the people who help me produce the art assets (which go beyond skins) for the entire game, it's ride or die and I'm going with the art team.

Sorry maybe I was unclear in my short comment. I meant as in he loved it so much he butted heads in the first place about the changes made to his design which resulted in the terminated contract following this discussion etc etc.

Ultimately I don't care about the reason why. Even without IgnusDeis influence I still don't think Vermillion is a good deluxe skin imo and I will still continue to support the Art Team (I did like Nova) just not with that particuliar purchase.

[-SR-Ahmed.Duke]

On 11/7/2017 at 11:01 AM, Rhekemi said:

As game developers, they are always trying to sell us the game, the game's vision, the reasoning behind a new mechanic or feature they know we might hate, but they're genuinely behind because they've worked with the people who worked weeks, months, to create it. Because it's their job and their livelihood. Because it's their passion.

On 11/7/2017 at 12:50 PM, Rhekemi said:

2) For an Ember Deluxe skin, DE had to choose between supporting the hard work of their current employees at the art department and IgnusDei's hard work which the art department disagrees with or doesn't want. Regardless of whether the art department's reasons are petty or perfectly reasonable, I think DE made the right choice.

To be blunt, if I have to choose between giving the community a skin they want and going against the wishes of the people who help me produce the art assets (which go beyond skins) for the entire game, it's ride or die and I'm going with the art team.

Just something came to my mind reading through specially your comments
As the community, we play, we pay & they become successful, in the game market despite being good many games die just because of the lack of considerably large player base which determines the ROI of the particular game business. Passion is indeed one of the key factors needed to make a project successful but if that passion becomes the priority over profitability then I may have to put my doubts on the business planning and forecasting of that particular game developer.

I can see that you have these same words in your comments as well but bit differently cause you wanted to focus on outlining a factor you fixed up in your mind. And about  Ember Deluxe 1.0? Why should we bother with something that has become a past and causing trouble to our future? DE has done incredible jobs before and trust, they are capable of doing the same regardless of any factors involved.

TLDR - DE should've gone back to the drawing board with their passionate and hardworking ART TEAM to start the project from the scratch after the community gave their feedback on the concept.

 

 

[AndIWin]

I believe 70%(or much more) Warframe players don't like this new design of ember deluxe skin

[blacklusterseph]

11 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

don't know if you had this info but the previous deluxe skins were made by ignus including banshee, the skins that were actually made from DE themselves were the Proto Excalibur, Nyx Nemisis, Saryn Orphid, and Valkyr Geresemi. now we got this one from them. the dynamic elements you're talking about was of Ignus, unless you're saying that the ones DE devolved were dynamic.

proto excal and nyx nemesis are excluded from this only because they are really heavily thought up and polished due to dark sector.

and while i agree with they look better than the normal and prime, for me the body only beats the prime out by a little and the helmet still is the best one DE has made for ember.

I am aware of the previous skins Ignus has designed and I don't really care for some of them including what he proposed for Ember. I think that is fine if I hate some of his design choices though, since that fits in with the polarizing aesthetic these frames have.

As for the dynamic elements, I probably chose the wrong word but I am referring to the parts of the Ember skin that have some physics. I'm hoping some of that modeling know-how goes back into fixing up the physics on the Banshee skin since it clips quite badly and moves a bit strangely at the moment.

[Orabell]

11 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

don't know if you had this info but the previous deluxe skins were made by ignus including banshee, the skins that were actually made from DE themselves were the Proto Excalibur, Nyx Nemisis, Saryn Orphid, and Valkyr Geresemi. now we got this one from them. the dynamic elements you're talking about was of Ignus, unless you're saying that the ones DE devolved were dynamic.

proto excal and nyx nemesis are excluded from this only because they are really heavily thought up and polished due to dark sector.

and while i agree with they look better than the normal and prime, for me the body only beats the prime out by a little and the helmet still is the best one DE has made for ember.

That Nova Skin is also from them afaik

[T40Productions]

13 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I bought this one and I am quite happy with it. The lines and the sillouette are better than the normal and prime, plus the textures are excellent. I hope some of the dynamic elements are used as learning for the older deluxe skins, specifically Banshee.

There seems to be an interesting and kinda cool tradition developing with the deluxe skins where they manage to skew quite heavily to certain aesthetics, not tending to any median in terms of peoples' tastes . You either love them or you hate them.

Can I get an example of what you mean by this? I'm not trying to be aggressive or trying to call you out, I'm just interested in what you mean.

[blacklusterseph]

5 minutes ago, Trunks40 said:

Can I get an example of what you mean by this? I'm not trying to be aggressive or trying to call you out, I'm just interested in what you mean.

I made 4 separate points in that post you quoted. What do you want an example of?

[T40Productions]

21 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

I made 4 separate points in that post you quoted. What do you want an example of?

My bad, I'm referring to where you said "There seems to be an interesting and kinda cool tradition developing with the deluxe skins where they manage to skew quite heavily to certain aesthetics, not tending to any median in terms of peoples' tastes . You either love them or you hate them."

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Trunks40

[blacklusterseph]

22 minutes ago, Trunks40 said:

My bad, I'm referring to where you said "There seems to be an interesting and kinda cool tradition developing with the deluxe skins where they manage to skew quite heavily to certain aesthetics, not tending to any median in terms of peoples' tastes . You either love them or you hate them."

From what I've observed so far, Oberon, Trinity, Banshee, Nova, Chroma, Mag and now Ember seem to produce very polarized responses in terms of player aesthetics. There may be variation in where the majority falls, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of indifference. I don't know much about earlier deluxes like Rhino or Loki, so I can't speak to the reception around those.

In terms of my own assimilation of each deluxe skin as it has been released, I definitely feel that subjective bias in terms of how each skin looks where it either has elements that are striking to me that I am compelled to make a purchase, versus having even two or three features that are jarring enough to me that I don't bother shelling out plat. Despite me feeling negatively about the appearance of any given skin, I have no other inclinations beyond that in terms of the skin existing, since there is invariably some fraction of the player base that the aesthetic speaks to on some visceral level that you can't really quantify in terms of shapes and textures. In that sense, I am glad all the skins exist in the form that they do since each one is letting some player out there express themselves in a way that pleases them.

That is the design trend, that to me at least, seems to be thread that connects these deluxe skins. That these skins release as they are does seem to be a conscious effort to buck the notion of designing to a majority. Given what each takes to implement, it does seem to be quite a cost effective avenue for self expression.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

No, @Orabell, I'm seeing why I should close this because of comments that are just way out of the focus of the topic. K thx bai!

[Orabell]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

No, @Orabell, I'm seeing why I should close this because of comments that are just way out of the focus of the topic. K thx bai!

That's childish, people are still giving respectful feedback and having a healthy discussion except you threatening to close it inbetween. It's not even close to derailing. But go ahead it's your right...

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

13 minutes ago, Orabell said:

That's childish, people are still giving respectful feedback and having a healthy discussion except you threatening to close it inbetween. It's not even close to derailing. But go ahead it's your right...

I see. I know, I see that. But seriously, some of them can't stay respectful. I don't want this to turn into just another thread bashing DE. I wanted constructive criticism. However, you are always welcome to create your own thread...

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

21 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

I wonder what exactly what is their goal here. Sell a few skins and call it a success because some people were crazy enough to buy it or sell a whole lot more with a design everyone loved and praised?

Even if they do manage to make quite a good profit out this awful bird, there is no telling how much more they won't make by discarding the original design.

In any case, if I were in DE, I would add both designs, see how many both of them sell and draw a conclusion whether it is smart to go with your audience or be stubborn, completely ignore everything and shut yourself in your safe space

I did hear of some people who hated the design by Ignus. Once again, DE cannot use the Ignus design, and I truly believe them when they say if they could, they would.

[Violet_Xe]

4 hours ago, Orabell said:

That Nova Skin is also from them afaik

nova skin? oh yeah sorry just repressed that the skin even existed... no really thats probably why i forgot it not trying to be disrespectful lol.

2 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

From what I've observed so far, Oberon, Trinity, Banshee, Nova, Chroma, Mag and now Ember seem to produce very polarized responses in terms of player aesthetics. There may be variation in where the majority falls, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of indifference. I don't know much about earlier deluxes like Rhino or Loki, so I can't speak to the reception around those.

In terms of my own assimilation of each deluxe skin as it has been released, I definitely feel that subjective bias in terms of how each skin looks where it either has elements that are striking to me that I am compelled to make a purchase, versus having even two or three features that are jarring enough to me that I don't bother shelling out plat. Despite me feeling negatively about the appearance of any given skin, I have no other inclinations beyond that in terms of the skin existing, since there is invariably some fraction of the player base that the aesthetic speaks to on some visceral level that you can't really quantify in terms of shapes and textures. In that sense, I am glad all the skins exist in the form that they do since each one is letting some player out there express themselves in a way that pleases them.

That is the design trend, that to me at least, seems to be thread that connects these deluxe skins. That these skins release as they are does seem to be a conscious effort to buck the notion of designing to a majority. Given what each takes to implement, it does seem to be quite a cost effective avenue for self expression.

as for this i'll go from top to bottom

all of the skins you listed have had mixed feelings yes, banshee didn't come in with a torn dress, had lines all over her, and they took away her sharp arm attachment for a disc, plus she was wider than her original skin. this was one of the first few among the deluxe skin fights. nova was a fight over her design like ember, *just want to throw this in there too DE seems to just throw their skins at us without us even knowing but when we had ignus we got concepts beforehand* as for the rest it's just small things like people wanting the skirt on oberon or what not.

going to the middle we would have no argument if the skin was released just by itself, if we weren't promised ignus's work beforehand we wouldn't be throwing a fit right now. we still would think it looked bad but there would be so much less controversy if they just didn't PROMISE us that skin in the first place and then to PROMISE us a better skin than ignus to get this. 

to the last parts of this which is a combination of your last bits of the second paragraph and the conclusion. if they really wanted to make people have expression and show what they want and who they are through warframes then why are we so forced into wearing a mohawk for ember, why are we forced into this dead hollow shell of nekros. as sad as it is to say i think nova is actually better than this skin not by it's model but because it provides WAY more freedom to those who play as nova, in fact nova players have tons of ways to express themselves, the prime and normal are completely different, immortal looks more chained and her deluxe is a completely different theme. if you include tengen she has the visage skin. nova should be the example of what skins should be, *not model wise but just the point* that people should have a ton of freedom. with this skin though we don't see much if any break away or any stand out features that a normal ember prime would have. so that self expression and expression with this skin doesn't really exist for me, or perhaps i'm just missing something big here.

Keep in mind i would not have been in any opposition to this skin just if they didn't make promises they just shatter. to top this they either lied or haven't told us why they can't use the old ember concept since obviously mag was able to be used. i do recognize the artists work hard on stuff like this, because it's not just the concept that needs to be drawn but the ingame model for deluxe skins are hard to do especially if they just completed PoE. so i do know they put a ton of work into these.

I know it sounds like i'm trying to shoot down and squash an argument that disagrees with me and the majority of the player base, but i'm trying to point out certain things here, it gets kind of hard to still be respectful so if you read it more like i'm being aggressive and attacking you , i'm really sorry. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Violet_Xe

[motorfirebox]

Whether it's "can't" or "won't" isn't really material. What's material is that they didn't. (That's a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular.) And what's even more material is that the design they went with instead doesn't seem all that popular. 

I would be pretty surprised if Vermilion sales came even close to sales of the other deluxe packages. I kinda hope so, not out of any kind of resentment but because if sales are low enough, they might consider a second deluxe skin with an entirely new--and hopefully less conservative--approach.

Edited November 8, 2017 by motorfirebox

[blacklusterseph]

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

all of the skins you listed have had mixed feelings yes, banshee didn't come in with a torn dress, had lines all over her, and they took away her sharp arm attachment for a disc, plus she was wider than her original skin. this was one of the first few among the deluxe skin fights. nova was a fight over her design like ember, *just want to throw this in there too DE seems to just throw their skins at us without us even knowing but when we had ignus we got concepts beforehand* as for the rest it's just small things like people wanting the skirt on oberon or what not.

I'm not sure what you mean with this, but my impression of the concept teasers are that they are simply teasers. I don't really see them as an invitation for feedback, and even then feedback is simply feedback. I don't see other games being beholden to act on aesthetic feedback, so I don't expect it of Warframe. On mechanics, yes, but defintely not on any aspect of the game's visual or audio design (Unless it impacts gameplay but you'll have a very hard time proving to me that the Ember deluxe skin affects your ability to play Ember).

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

going to the middle we would have no argument if the skin was released just by itself, if we weren't promised ignus's work beforehand we wouldn't be throwing a fit right now. we still would think it looked bad but there would be so much less controversy if they just didn't PROMISE us that skin in the first place and then to PROMISE us a better skin than ignus to get this. 

When did they 'promise' a particular appearance for Ember? As far as I know the only thing guaranteed by the appearance of the concept art was that Ember was getting a deluxe skin. I saw no assurances about subjective things like the skin's reception or what percentage of the community would have an affinity for it. They said a skin was coming and one came. On to the next one.

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

to the last parts of this which is a combination of your last bits of the second paragraph and the conclusion. if they really wanted to make people have expression and show what they want and who they are through warframes then why are we so forced into wearing a mohawk for ember, why are we forced into this dead hollow shell of nekros. as sad as it is to say i think nova is actually better than this skin not by it's model but because it provides WAY more freedom to those who play as nova, in fact nova players have tons of ways to express themselves, the prime and normal are completely different, immortal looks more chained and her deluxe is a completely different theme. if you include tengen she has the visage skin. nova should be the example of what skins should be, *not model wise but just the point* that people should have a ton of freedom. with this skin though we don't see much if any break away or any stand out features that a normal ember prime would have. so that self expression and expression with this skin doesn't really exist for me, or perhaps i'm just missing something big here.

My point had nothing to do with full customization which we would never get outside of Bioware-level sliders. You don't feel the opportunity for self expression in this skin but someone else does. Your sentiment is valid, but not more valid than anyone elses. I have yet to see the skin that has 100% approval or disapproval across or platforms and regions.

[DeltaPangaea]

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

going to the middle we would have no argument if the skin was released just by itself, if we weren't promised ignus's work beforehand we wouldn't be throwing a fit right now. we still would think it looked bad but there would be so much less controversy if they just didn't PROMISE us that skin in the first place and then to PROMISE us a better skin than ignus to get this.

I mean, I'd still be annoyed. I'm not even attached to the Ignus skin that much.

I just really, really dislike the peacock.

[DeltaPangaea]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I did hear of some people who hated the design by Ignus. Once again, DE cannot use the Ignus design, and I truly believe them when they say if they could, they would.

Except they can.

They just don't want to.

[Justice_Ember]

6 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I just really, really dislike the peacock.

+1

[Berzerkir]

I think I have finally put together a coherent and concise reason why I personally hate this skin. The motif change. If they kept a similar fire or molten aesthetic, I would likely be much more open to change. They went from [made of fire] to [a phoenix severely lacking in any fire].

At bare minimum, if this skin sported less of a mohawk (or none at all) and more fire to make it not look like zephyr from the neck down, I'd be at least okay with this.

brackets added because why not.

[Rhekemi]

On 11/7/2017 at 2:43 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I think what @Rhekemi said actually sums up the entire issue. Should this be closed then?

The thread is yours, so it's entirely up to you. That said, I think everyone's still being respectful. 

It's an open debate and I like debating. Do I worry the ugly side of me might come out and I'll rip someone's head off? Yes. But he hasn't and that's part of why I like debating: it's a practice in discussing differing points of opinion with logic and facts, not with insults and lies.

On 11/7/2017 at 5:51 PM, zzzNitro said:

I dislike this Skin just as much as the design for Oberon Prime, add this to Ember's Vermillion and you have a pattern for someone that heavily inspires by Hindu mythology and animal themes, and after all the negative comments towards all those 3 designs, not taking in consideration the community feels like a bad move.

 

So, because you (and others) don't like Hindu mythology aesthetics and animal themes, that designer shouldn't use them?  Bluntly, but respectfully, you and those who have directed negative comments toward the aesthetic in question do not represent how the community feels.

I have no problem with Hindu mythology as an aesthetic, nor do I have one with animal themes. I have a problem with any conceptual art that is poorly executed. I liked the design idea behind Nova Asuri (many did), I hated how it turned out.

One can have a brilliant idea but execute it badly. It doesn't make the idea or concept bad in and of itself. The way you've worded your response, the problem isn't poor execution, it's sticking with that aesthetic in the first place.

Either way, you cannot conflate how you feel, how a number of others feel (but clearly not the majority) on the aesthetic in question with "how the community feels".

There may be a majority who are negative about the Vermillion skin, but that doesn't = a majority dislikes Hindu Mythology aesthetics and animal themes.

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I have made a point against the purchases being a real indicator of players "happiness" before and why it's not a good idea,

 

Whether or not you feel it accurately measures how we feel about it is irrelevant seeing as there is no shortage of avenues to express exactly how we feel (forums, subreddit, Twitter, YouTube comments) so long as they're respectful. Add to that the fact that we don't have to purchase the skin (and many won't) and I do think DE has plenty of indicators we're unhappy.

Judging from your response above, the implication is the only way DE can address our unhappiness is to do what we want them to do. Anything less is unacceptable. DE should have dumped the artist's design and adopted IgnusDei's or changed it to a new design that we would like. Why? Because we don't like it.

Sorry, but that's not a good reason for any company to cave to customer, playerbase, and community displeasure. We've both mentioned how DE is a company we've come to respect and love. We'd be remiss not to recall the many times they have caved to community pressure when something they've done, some content they've released, is potentially offensive (the operator outfit that looked like the WW2 era Japanese flag was offensive to Koreans, Korean Americans, and others), unfair or punitive.

The Vermillion design, the Oberon Prime, and the Nova Asuri skins are not offensive, they're not punitive, and they're not unfair. They're not mandatory purchases. They're designs that some, perhaps many, dislike vehemently. The answer is to make your opinion known (as we have done consistently) and to not purchase the skin. The hope is that the art team will do better, or that the particular artist (if there is one) will remember previous feedback and be open to improving on their original design ideas.

Not liking a design, artwork, or an aesthetic, hating it even, isn't a good enough reason for DE to cave to community pressure. Either they believe in the integrity of their artists' work and stand behind them, or they don't. I don't want DE to ever compromise in the faith they have in their art team just because we don't like a particular skin or design.

Oh, btw, regarding the South Park / safe space comment, I'm proud of DE doing that. Creating a safe space for their employees to create artwork they believed in is what I'd expect from them.

Throwing their employees to the whims and negativity of the public is something I'd be disappointed in. Let's be real: the art team could not escape our negative feedback on the design. They heard us, and DE heard us. DE just didn't let our feedback stop them from releasing the skin.

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and again repeating a mistake doesn't make it right.

It's also something I never claimed. That so many hate Nova Asuri and Ember Vermillion is evident. It's also evident that DE stands behind the art team. Those two points aren't in conflict, and doing the latter doesn't mean the former becomes "right". They're still bad designs.

My posts aren't a defense of those bad designs, they're a defense of a company's right to stand behind their employees and not cave to a swell of negativity.

As I said earlier (and you chose not to respond to my question), the art team didn't knowingly create a bad design to make us suffer it on purpose or to make a point and win the argument with Ignus (which you nearly implied). They thought the design was good. We, or at least a vocal majority in the community, didn't. DE chose to let it go live and live or die on the market, maintaining faith in their artists, rather than pull it and force them to go back to the drawing board.

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It falls apart in that there were no 2 options, it wasn't IgnusDei's skin or Greenchicken, they could and should have gone back to the drawing board and work a new amazing concept, with no mohawk.

1

Do you know that there was time to go back to the drawing board? I honestly don't know if there were time constraints.

And tell me, what happens if DE did tell them to take it back to the drawing board and we hated the next design? That's something I haven't seen anyone consider. I haven't even considered it until now, but it's probably why I trust DE to trust their art team, and not our negative feedback. Rather than defending the Vermillion skin, I'm defending the principle behind not bending to community pressure over artwork. I suppose that's the crux of the matter for me.

That said, you might have missed my previous posts within this very thread:

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Spoiler

It seemed as if it had no coherent or pleasing vision behind it. If there was, the vision fell flat.

Rather than go forward with it, I wish someone on the art team worked with the design's primary artist (there had to be one, right?) to improve it. Even if the art team wouldn't trust the majority of us, someone on the art team should have been able to reach their co-worker(s) and say, "How can we improve this and stay in line with your vision?"

[...]

Lastly, despite what I said about us not being able to give actionable feedback to the art department, I believe we were right (as right as one can be about artistic taste): the skin was a poor design, and they should have heeded our feedback in some way. But part of me feels it couldn't have been easy to find the constructive, well-worded stuff that would've reached them in the sea of "this skin is horrendous!", "bring back IgnusDei's skin!", and "this is ugly!".

I wish they could have found those posts and comments, the good constructive ones like yours above, and taken something positive from them. Or, as noted earlier, that their own co-workers would have helped them improve the skin.

[...]

Like others have pointed out that they went too far with the "chicken" theme, part of me honestly believes they did and thought it'd be a hit (Warframe is nothing if it isn't defined by its meme culture).

The problem is, well, how can I be nice about it? It wasn't a loveable, powerful, cute, sexy, magnificent, vengeful, or majestic looking chicken. It wasn't as subtle as her vanilla and prime, either. 

1

 

 

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Plenty, the Hema, Focus 2.0, the lack of tutorials, etc...

 

Guess I'll make time to watch it eventually.

15 hours ago, Orabell said:

Sorry maybe I was unclear in my short comment. I meant as in he loved it so much he butted heads in the first place about the changes made to his design which resulted in the terminated contract following this discussion etc etc.

3

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

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Ultimately I don't care about the reason why. Even without IgnusDeis influence I still don't think Vermillion is a good deluxe skin imo and I will still continue to support the Art Team (I did like Nova) just not with that particuliar purchase.

Gotcha.

14 hours ago, Dark_Prince_Duke said:

Just something came to my mind reading through specially your comments
As the community, we play, we pay & they become successful, in the game market despite being good many games die just because of the lack of considerably large player base which determines the ROI of the particular game business.

1

Yes, this was never in dispute. 

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Passion is indeed one of the key factors needed to make a project successful but if that passion becomes the priority over profitability then I may have to put my doubts on the business planning and forecasting of that particular game developer.

 

Agreed. However, if you're implying a design like Ember Vermillion is passion over profitability, I'd point out that Ember Deluxe skins are a mere fraction of where the real profit is made. New weapons, new warframes, primes and prime access packs are the primary source of profit. Skins and cosmetics are a big part of profit, but considering DE has other skins on the market and TennoGen (at least for everyone but PC folks like me), it's perfectly reasonable for them as a company to stand behind their artists with the occasional bad design.

What I think is unreasonable for the company to stand behind is bad game design and business practices (like creating a new layer of time-gated, resource-gated grind for Archwing use in PoE when we already farmed hard for Archwing gear years ago). I think letting poorly planned updates, new resources, or mechanics go through without a better buffer of beta testing is far worse than letting a bad skin go through.

That said, it is a part of the same "just release it" attitude DE has about all its new content. That's another reason why I'm so surprised people are surprised DE released something it might have waited and tried to amend first. DE's new content production schedule is unrelenting, even at the risk of releasing subpar content.

However, I make an exception for things like bad skins. They aren't offensive. They're not unfair or punitive (which actual features and mechanics can be). They're just bad designs I don't have to and will not buy.

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I can see that you have these same words in your comments as well but bit differently cause you wanted to focus on outlining a factor you fixed up in your mind.

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Sometimes the mistake many in the community make when reading responses from other members (members like me) is assuming that because those members defend DE without criticising them heavily, they must be blind, a shill, carrying water for DE, or unable to see that DE has made a mistake (or mistakes). Don't worry, I know you didn't use those words and I'm not accusing you.

But the assumption that I'm blindly defending them is still inherent and still a mistake.

I see DE's faults. I see that we're paying customers and our opinions do matter. But Ember Vermillion isn't a critical failure or one that I'm forced to accept (unlike not being able to craft the Ignis Wraith, or forced to work through the incredibly punitive Hema research--my clan's still not done with it). It's just one bad skin.

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And about  Ember Deluxe 1.0? Why should we bother with something that has become a past and causing trouble to our future?

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You lost me. I don't know what you mean here. Clarify?

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DE has done incredible jobs before and trust, they are capable of doing the same regardless of any factors involved.

 

Agreed.

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TLDR - DE should've gone back to the drawing board with their passionate and hardworking ART TEAM to start the project from the scratch

 

I wish they had. You said you've been specifically reading my posts, so I'm sure you read where we agree on this. Where we disagree is on the notion that our negative feedback should have demanded that they scrap the skin and start over, or that DE should have forced the art team to do so.

Support doesn't mean we'll get what we want all the time in artwork, or that we can demand it if we don't get what we want. If it were an offensive, punitive, or unfair design, then yes, I believe our community pressure should have demanded change. But it wasn't. We just didn't like it.

[Violet_Xe]

7 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I am glad all the skins exist in the form that they do since each one is letting some player out there express themselves in a way that pleases them.

some people cannot express themselves because each skin has a mohawk and some people don't like the mohawk.

3 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

You don't feel the opportunity for self expression in this skin but someone else does.

i don't feel it because it literally isn't there, there is a single skin that needs to be bought with money that lacks a mohawk, meaning if someone wants to express themselves without a mohawk, pay up. it's a fact that if someone wants to express themselves without the mohawk they are screwed over.

 

3 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I have yet to see the skin that has 100% approval or disapproval across or platforms and regions.

 i stated up there that there was a fight over the skins, no deluxe skin is going to have 100% on all sides.

also as for the part where you said i'm not sure what this is, i may have forgotten to put my point in that, the thing is while those had some fights, this by far has had the most fighting over all the skins released. even passing nova

Devstream 84 "DE rebecca and we have another concept to show you, we know you're still waiting for frost, mag, zephyr, chroma, but heres another one to get excited for. oh baby. ember deluxe"

"the concept is approved, mynky gave his touches, then it's on to modeling. ember fans will... will uh rejoice, so yeah thats something to look forward too"

they told us to get excited for it, for us to anticipate it, an indirect promise. in fact they complimented it on the devstream...