Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

What I would suggest is that you look at how marketing works and how you get someone to invest in your company. 

wait so, a good way to do marketing is to

• disappoint the large majority of the community *from what we know* 
• Release a horrible different version
• damage your games reputation during the biggest release and debut of their game.
• and then continue to not give us reasons as to why the ember deluxe skin cannot actually be used.

great business plan, i mean i don't really know much about marketing but i'm pretty sure that's bad for the company in general

 

*this is a really fast typed out response so i didn't put much thought into this because i'm ina  rush so sorry if it seems a bit out of what i normally do*

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Violet_Xe

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 Also, Ignusdei left on the 13th of December, and as I came here stating, using someone's artwork after they leave is not something you do.

also they had no issue using mag deluxe skin. far after he left.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

"I would suggest you look at how marketing works"

Psuedo-intellectual business poser speak. I guess that is a form of marketing, ironic-ly enough. Lying is indeed a big part of a lot of marketing, which is a big part of why marketing is not beholden to finished products at all, actually. Not that Vermilion ember was even changed after showing it, this is even after telling people she was going to have fire around her mesh(lying.).

 

Marketers never lie....... Outright. Lies by omission aren't really lies in the realm of marketing,but you can't lie about what you get. You'll get exactly what it says on the package, just probably not in a way you expected. Much like the Ember skin, which didn't have a package in the first place. Now, did they tell you it would have fire in the mesh in the advertisement, or in the devstream I told you was irrelevant? 

Also, 

>everything I don't understand is pseudo intellectual 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

What kind of investors and advertisers do you think DE is adhering to when they change schedules at the drop of hat, and can decide when a skin comes out? Clearly ones not overly concerned with specific deluxe skins. Its the audience, who will be giving them money specifically for that, who are more concerned with that. 

Microsoft,  Sony and Steam? 

Once again, you don't understand how the scheduling works. It isn't set until the skin is almost  ready for release, and happens  before the official announcements. When the date is set, it's set, but DE chooses where it gets set and can't change it afterwards, because a lot of money is passing hands here. 

I don't think you understand the scale this is on. These are the 3 biggest platforms in gaming we are talking about here. Warframe isn't a small indie game with like 5 developers. It's a multi million dollar making game across 3 platforms. This comes with not a small amount of risk,and a lot more at stake, figuratively and literally. 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

. Its the audience, who will be giving them money specifically for that, who are more concerned with that. DE is not some triple A shop, its basically a glorified indie studio, and they run things in wildcat fashion, not strict schedules or mass marketing, they've relied more on community advertising than the typical foray, and el cheapo banners for the most part. 

Here's where you're wrong. Warframe is essentially a AAA game at this point in scale and budget.  It is an indie studio, but it's an indie studio of 100+ people. That's a medium sized development team. Indie doesn't made on the fly with a budget of string cheese, it simply means independently published. Not only that, it's irrelevant, because indie or not Warframe still has investors and partners, who need to know what is happening and when, and how to work with them. 

Are investors more  important than audience?  No, but they are just as important to keep the gears running and add the gears in the first place. Without them you wouldn't have the steam access to get the skin, the allowances for Plat that allow you to buy the skin, and the servers that allow you to play the game with the skin. You can't just look at the end product and ignore everything it takes to get there. 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

Their general advertising has been for Plains of Eidolon, even put up the dosh to advertise it in Time Square. Vermilion Ember? Not so much. 

This is a point against you, if it were true. You could see both the Haruka and Pneuma skins available on Steam before the PoE update, but no Vermilion or the original concept skin. Any idea why that is? 

 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

 

No set schedule or time frame was given at all for when Ember deluxe was to be, and you have no proof of obligated marketing schedule either.

It was supposed to be released with the Harka and Pneuma skins. It was. And of course I don't  have proof of their entire marketing schedule, do I look like staff to you? The point is that it WAS marketed, and marketing doesn't happen the day before release. Again, Steam. All those advertisements you take off automatically? Yeah, there. 

 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

.

Basically, all I am seeing from you is a bunch of unsure assumptions, meanwhile I present what DE has said and done, inadvertently or not. Its pretty clear they are beholden to what the art team feels like releasing, in regard to deluxe skins.

Ignoring that everything you said is either wrong or misguided, who is the art team beholden to? 

 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

.Its funny you mention Ignusdei's firing date too, seeing as they still went ahead with his Harka and his Pnuema skins, and still sell his other skins.  Keep spouting a meme that not even Ignusdei buys though.

Did he say he butted heads over the Harka and Pnuema skins and left because of it? I don't follow his Twitter, I dunno. Most  likely not though. 

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

Legally I dont think he "owns" the artwork considering he was working for DE. 

Spirit and letter of the law. They could have used the skin, but they chose not toout of respect to Ignusdei. As they should have. In my opinion, that is. 

 

1 hour ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

.

Also to further your arguemnt agenst the person you qouted - you would market something in advance to creat interest and hype, as well as test out interest. you cant start sales without a market and marketing is much more then just advertising. I do think that many of the skins have been a bit odd looking and I dont like them, but they would have had to go thouhgt an approval process. we also have to remember that this is a world wide game, so there may be a region where this ember skin is very populer comapred to our own. 

Very true, but how long before? There have been games with disastrous releases because they promised the moon and the stars and the cold harsh reality of game development slapped them in the face. This is where the Devstream comes  in. Everyone and their dog knew about the skin in the community, and everyone, including me, liked it a lot. 20 million registered  losers users is nothing to scoff at. However, when we look to the past skins such as Rhino Palatine and Excalibur Proto Armor, those announcements as well did not come long before release, but months after they were first shown in stream. There's no real reason I can think of they do it, it's just what they do. 

 

20 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

wait so, a good way to do marketing is to

• 1.disappoint the large majority of the community *from what we know* 
• 2.Release a horrible different version
• 3.damage your games reputation during the biggest release and debut of their game.
• 4.and then continue to not give us reasons as to why the ember deluxe skin cannot actually be used.

 

1. Was unavoidable. They could not in good conscience use the skin, and in my opinion that was the correct choice. Don't much like it, but that's the way the world works sometimes. 

2. Is an opinion, and also a consequence of 1. There is no feasible way to develop a skin equal in detail to the first even in the most generous of time frames between Ignusdei's departure and the release of the skin. Like the first person said, they began modeling early in the year and postponed. Modeling and animation for all those bits would not take a short time. Part of what makes the current skin so bad is that it's so static, at least to me. 

3. No one's going to quit the game over a skin, especially when they said that the lead developer of the skin left. And again, the first skin was not marketed, so those joining wouldn't even know unless they came to the forums. 

4. They gave a reason. They didn't want to use his concept after he left. Maybe not a good enough reason for you, but it's good enough for me. 

25 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

also they had no issue using mag deluxe skin. far after he left.

Did he get ousted because of that skin? I mean really, why do people not get this? He had a disagreement with the art team so severe he left the company. If you had a disagreement with a coworker on how to do your jobs and he left, would you then take his work and use it? It's just in poor taste. 

[UrielColtan]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Marketers never lie....... Outright. Lies by omission aren't really lies in the realm of marketing,but you can't lie about what you get. You'll get exactly what it says on the package, just probably not in a way you expected. Much like the Ember skin, which didn't have a package in the first place. Now, did they tell you it would have fire in the mesh in the advertisement, or in the devstream I told you was irrelevant? 

Also, 

>everything I don't understand is pseudo intellectual 

Microsoft,  Sony and Steam? 

Once again, you don't understand how the scheduling works. It isn't set until the skin is almost  ready for release, and happens  before the official announcements. When the date is set, it's set, but DE chooses where it gets set and can't change it afterwards, because a lot of money is passing hands here. 

I don't think you understand the scale this is on. These are the 3 biggest platforms in gaming we are talking about here. Warframe isn't a small indie game with like 5 developers. It's a multi million dollar making game across 3 platforms. This comes with not a small amount of risk,and a lot more at stake, figuratively and literally. 

Here's where you're wrong. Warframe is essentially a AAA game at this point in scale and budget.  It is an indie studio, but it's an indie studio of 100+ people. That's a medium sized development team. Indie doesn't made on the fly with a budget of string cheese, it simply means independently published. Not only that, it's irrelevant, because indie or not Warframe still has investors and partners, who need to know what is happening and when, and how to work with them. 

Are investors more  important than audience?  No, but they are just as important to keep the gears running and add the gears in the first place. Without them you wouldn't have the steam access to get the skin, the allowances for Plat that allow you to buy the skin, and the servers that allow you to play the game with the skin. You can't just look at the end product and ignore everything it takes to get there. 

This is a point against you, if it were true. You could see both the Haruka and Pneuma skins available on Steam before the PoE update, but no Vermilion or the original concept skin. Any idea why that is? 

 

It was supposed to be released with the Harka and Pneuma skins. It was. And of course I don't  have proof of their entire marketing schedule, do I look like staff to you? The point is that it WAS marketed, and marketing doesn't happen the day before release. Again, Steam. All those advertisements you take off automatically? Yeah, there. 

 

Ignoring that everything you said is either wrong or misguided, who is the art team beholden to? 

 

Did he say he butted heads over the Harka and Pnuema skins and left because of it? I don't follow his Twitter, I dunno. Most  likely not though. 

Oh dear, posturing once again I see, Gordon Gecko.

Sony, Microsoft and Steam? These are conflicting companies that DE is a third party with at best, like any indie studio.

They couldn't care less about deluxe skins, and only care about any "schedules" when DE feels like presenting a build or cert(More so with the consoles), and only care about if a build harms their platform in any way, not so much the content.

Sony and Steam also have a history of allowing all manner of shovelware or false advertising onto their stores, and neither fund DE operations, same with Microsoft. DE actually pays them when they send in certs or put up builds. 

Steam is not required for deluxe skins either,  let alone plat or running the game at all. You are thinking of Tennogen, which is cash only on Steam. Not plat.

Harka was released long prior to Pnuema FYI. 

All that stuff you mentioned is also by internal business staff, before even being publicly traded.

I like how you move the goal post about not using someone's skin after they left too. Just like you move the goal post in regard to strict schedules, which you merely assume.

Crow about the nebulous investors if you want, but you are going to have to put up or shut up in regard to them hounding and forcing them to go with this Vermilion skin. Everything you said about marketing runs quite contrary to practices, so I only expect more fan fiction from you.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by UrielColtan

[TheBrsrkr]

8 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Oh dear, posturing once again I see, Gordon Gecko. 

No, DE is an Indie studio, they are funded by and adhere to no publisher, and brag about this.

You are mistaken in thinking indie means shoestring budget. Hellblade is also an indie title, for example.

 

That's literally what I said. 

 

9 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

.Sony, Microsoft and Steam? These are conflicting companies that DE is a third party with at best, like any indie studio.

Of this is what you really think you have very little understanding of both business and  gaming. Third parties, especially Steam, are where everything has to go through. Sony and Microsoft have  to certify everything that goes through the console. If you think DE just cancels whatever they feel like whenever they want you really need to double check what "schedule" means. 

 

11 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

They couldn't care less about deluxe skins, and only care about any "schedules" when DE feels like presenting a build or cert(More so with the consoles), and only care about if a build harms their platform in any way, not so much the content.

 

So what you're saying here is that they only care about the schedule when DE adds things to the schedule? What? Of course they do, because it's on the schedule! 

 

13 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Sony and Steam also have a history of allowing all manner of shovelware or false advertising onto their stores, and neither fund DE operations, same with Microsoft. DE actually pays them when they send in certs or put up builds. 

Splicing together a crappy game with prepared development resources is not the same as taking an already established game and adding a skin to it. I did not think this would need explanation. 

 

15 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

. 

Steam is not required for deluxe skins either,  let alone plat or running the game at all. You are thinking of Tennogen, which is cash only on Steam. Not plat.

All monetary purchases that go through Steam must be certified by Steam. You know, so that people can't mod the source code and get 99999 plat to trade with? This is true for any and every game on Steam. It's just not a big deal. 

 

17 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

.I like how you move the goal post about not using someone's skin after they left too. Just like you move the goal post in regard to strict schedules, which you merely assume.

Firstly, why would they just toss out all his art when the problem was one thing? That makes no sense. If you have a problem with a coworker on a project, do you toss out everything you've worked on when he quits? You're not Makin good any sense. They could have  used it if they wanted to, they just didn't want to. As for the schedules, what are you even saying? The three skins were advertised together, but Ember's wasn't on the advertisement. They didn't want to use the skin, and they had to release on the date. Where is the moving of the goalposts? What's changed? 

 

21 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

.

Crow about the nebulous investors if you want, but you are going to have to put up or shut up in regard to them hounding and forcing them to go with this Vermilion skin. Everything you said about marketing runs quite contrary to practices, so I only expect more fan fiction from you.

So what you're saying is you won't listen to me unless  I know about things only staff would know about? No one was FORCED  to out out the skin, they CHOSE TO because they had an obligation due to advertising. They could have pulled it if they wanted to, take down the ad,  pay the fee and put it off until they came  up with something else. It's not impossible to get something off once it's on, it's just a lot of time, money and work no one wants or needs. They didn't find it appropriate, so they didn't do it. You just don't want to accept that. 

 

[UrielColtan]

53 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

That's literally what I said. 

 

Of this is what you really think you have very little understanding of both business and  gaming. Third parties, especially Steam, are where everything has to go through. Sony and Microsoft have  to certify everything that goes through the console. If you think DE just cancels whatever they feel like whenever they want you really need to double check what "schedule" means. 

 

So what you're saying here is that they only care about the schedule when DE adds things to the schedule? What? Of course they do, because it's on the schedule! 

 

Splicing together a crappy game with prepared development resources is not the same as taking an already established game and adding a skin to it. I did not think this would need explanation. 

 

All monetary purchases that go through Steam must be certified by Steam. You know, so that people can't mod the source code and get 99999 plat to trade with? This is true for any and every game on Steam. It's just not a big deal. 

 

Firstly, why would they just toss out all his art when the problem was one thing? That makes no sense. If you have a problem with a coworker on a project, do you toss out everything you've worked on when he quits? You're not Makin good any sense. They could have  used it if they wanted to, they just didn't want to. As for the schedules, what are you even saying? The three skins were advertised together, but Ember's wasn't on the advertisement. They didn't want to use the skin, and they had to release on the date. Where is the moving of the goalposts? What's changed? 

 

So what you're saying is you won't listen to me unless  I know about things only staff would know about? No one was FORCED  to out out the skin, they CHOSE TO because they had an obligation due to advertising. They could have pulled it if they wanted to, take down the ad,  pay the fee and put it off until they came  up with something else. It's not impossible to get something off once it's on, it's just a lot of time, money and work no one wants or needs. They didn't find it appropriate, so they didn't do it. You just don't want to accept that. 

 

You don't seem to get that steam is not even required for Warframe outside of Tennogen, you are out of your element.

DE decides what they give to Steam, or Sony, or MS. These companies don't care if they are actually on time or not because they will get paid even if DE miss their own desired schedule. Steam does not require cert time though. That's why you can get so many hotfixes at the snap of a finger. Its more of a glorified store with optional DRM.

Why would they scrap art over one thing(Mohawk), indeed. Either way, you are moving the goal post, they still used the likes of his Pnuema skin despite firing him, it was rather funny how Ignusdei pointed this out himself.

You are also playing fast and loose with "advertising" now despite refusing to call this as such before. Mag deluxe was actually advertised before Harka. 

Harka was released long before the Pnuema skin too.  

"They had to release on the date"

Maybe you should also not be speaking for staff if you think its something only they would know. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

That's literally what I said. 

 

 

 

Excuse me, your post is a wall of text on my phone, so some words got cut off.

I still don't see your point about their game making millions, if anything that makes them less beholden to outside forces.

 

 

[octobotimus]

feedback on the ember skin please, not on DE

[UrielColtan]

Not realizing that topics and therefore discussions got merged.  So they seem to think this fits the topic. You also can't have one without the other.

Edited November 10, 2017 by UrielColtan

[MeiWIZ]

10 hours ago, KingTeensie said:

Others see a chicken, I see a phoenix!

but I see a "Phoenix dactylifera" have many worms on the head.

[akira_him]

2 hours ago, MeiWIZ said:

but I see a "Phoenix dactylifera" have many worms on the head.

Rare image of orokin manufacturing vermilion model of the Ember warframe, AC 31,000, colorzied

[Rhekemi]

15 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I was surprised that no one disputed this statement. To say those who have no artistic/design talent are incapable of having a sense of aesthetics is quite a fallacious one, and seems to suggest the artists have an arrogance to ignore any "unprofessional" people. A bit like those game veterans who demand MR20 and above players, don't you think? Art has always been a creation that is meant to Challenge the Masses' Thinking (you notice I did not say appeal to them). It has to cause a plethora of emotion/thought in those who view it. This is good art.

 

No, I don't think it's like MR20 + snobbery. If you choose to interpret it that way, there's nothing I can say that will change that. But I'll try again.

It's likely no one disputed it because what you go on to say (in bold) isn't what I actually said.

I never said those of us without academic or casual artistic design background are "incapable of having a sense of aesthetics", and I never will. You're free to re-read my posts in full.

What I did say was the art team is not inclined to listen to us, the untrained masses, in the way the rest of the game's development team listens to us as gamers. I said this in direct response to the notion of "surprise" at DE not listening to the playerbase on Ember Vermillion. Neither did I suggest they're arrogant and ignore us because we're unprofessional.

Again, the early part of this thread centered on DE/the art team not heeding our complaints. It was more than fair to draw the distinction between DE listening to us on gameplay but not being inclined to on artwork.

Whether you agree with that choice or the underlying rationale I hypothesized, the fact remains evident: DE and the art team do not heed us in the same way they do on gameplay, mechanics, etc. 

This is the point I made, at length. That point was not "we're incapable of having a sense of design and unprofessional".

 

Quote

To put it into perspective, you don't have to experience cancer to be a doctor. You don't have to burn to death in a building to be a firefighter. You don't need to grow wine to be a professional taster. You don't have to make films to be able to write good critique of them. All in all, you are not obligated to be a producer if you are an informed consumer. Just because someone spent years at producing content does not automatically mean their opinion is better or of higher value.

Actually, I offered perspective, context, and nuance for my remarks in the very post you quoted. To ignore the bulk of my post is to ignore the context and nuance I presented the comments in. I suppose if you're looking for something to dispute, you'll find it either way.

If you want to characterize the art team in that light, you're welcome to do so, but do it in your own words, please. Not by reinterpreting or mischaracterizing mine out of context (context: the symbiotic relationship we share with the dev team as gamers does not exist with the art team for various, logical, empirical reasons).

I also made it clear our opinions matter, even if we can't articulate them:

On 11/4/2017 at 9:55 PM, Rhekemi said:

That's the thing about art for those of us who aren't students and practitioners: we know what we like and don't like, but can't often put it into words. It's still more than enough to say "I don't like this" even if you don't know why. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all our tastes, our likes and dislikes, are valid.

Don't ever feel less than because you can't articulate it. (But it's also okay to think about it hard and put it into your own words.)

[...]

 

Rather than go forward with it, I wish someone on the art team worked with the design's primary artist (there had to be one, right?) to improve it. Even if the art team wouldn't trust the majority of us, someone on the art team should have been able to reach their co-worker(s) and say, "How can we improve this and stay in line with your vision?"

[...]

Lastly, despite what I said about us not being able to give actionable feedback to the art department, I believe we were right (as right as one can be about artistic taste): the skin was a poor design, and they should have heeded our feedback in some way. But part of me feels it couldn't have been easy to find the constructive, well-worded stuff that would've reached them in the sea of "this skin is horrendous!", "bring back IgnusDei's skin!", and "this is ugly!".

I wish they could have found those posts and comments, the good constructive ones like yours above, and taken something positive from them. Or, as noted earlier, that their own co-workers would have helped them improve the skin.

 

2

 

 

On 11/5/2017 at 4:08 AM, Rhekemi said:

As you can see above, we agree on this 100%: the art team's direction and vision is a black box. I'm not sure how that can change if they're unwilling to change it (and take our feedback into consideration).

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Rhekemi

[UrielColtan]

On 11/2/2017 at 4:03 PM, (PS4)Vagnar said:

Yah. It's based on the Chinese Vermilion bird of the South. It has the plume on its head like Ember's helm in most depictions.

 

It's really rad imho if you know where the inspiration comes from.

In most depictions and descriptions its various shades of red and on fire. Very little about the top of the head is described, let alone expressed like Ember's skin here, never mind even looking consistent. The most prominent plumes in art though tend to be expressed in the tail area, which this skin does not compare to.  The top of its head is the least defining thing about this Chinese holy beast, so I don't see how this skin reminded you of it without the use of "Vermilion" in the name. 

If anything, this Ember skin more resembles a Fenghuang, which tends to be depicted in similar colors, if not a mere rooster, as opposed to actually being Vermilion  or usually on fire like the Zhuqu/Suzaku this skin is named after. Fenghaung is more of a multi element beast instead of a fire elemental.  Not even that creature's head plumes are acutely defined or consistently depicted though, it too has much emphasis in the tails in art.

Edited November 10, 2017 by UrielColtan

[-Kyle-]

Don't need to redo the skin, some people enjoyed, not me.

But, why not make the first concept, Ember deserves, the community deserves.

I don't see any problem 2 deluxes skins, your made a mistake with this one, be humble and make another one.

[UrielColtan]

I think the fire effects they said it was supposed to have around the mesh should at least be added in as an auxillary. I don't think anyone is saying to actually remove the skin now that it is out, just consider allowing us to have the other concept, or consider the audience before finalizing a deluxe skin in the future. That Volt deluxe skin especially needs to be put on pause and redone.

Edited November 10, 2017 by UrielColtan

[T40Productions]

Y'know, honestly after seeing people play around with colors, I see the frame in a much less negative light. Do I still dislike the frame? Yes, but not as fervently as I did before. For me, the helmet still is the biggest kicker as well as what most other folks have expressed with the sparse fire effects on the frame. The feathered bird-like design is not my favorite in the world, but still at least passable. I wouldn't give up 165(?) plat to buy it, but I can see where others would.
(The default colors are still god awful to me, though)

[phoenix1992]

*Trowing the opinion on the wall that If I have to spend additional resources for Prime helmet, Tennogen skins and 2+ color pallets in order to make a decent Deluxe skin, the deluxe skin has failed*

PS: And I actually have the said prime helmet and color pallets.

[Guest]

I read the full post. What I saw was simply an added explanation as to why you feel the Art team was justified in not listening to the players. However, I also disagree that the art team is not symbiotic with the players.

As I would reiterate, everyone is in this together, so we should have a certain form of feedback to each other. Note, I am not salty about the ember skin release, but felt it could be better planned.

The thing is, I feel the hate is justified, because you cannot dispute that people dislike the design. I accept the art team makes so called mistakes sometimes. They are human like you and me.

But people should forgive and move on. We have criticized the art team. They heard us. Whether they want to take action is their problem, but unlike your perspective on giving them free reign, they are accountable to DE and us in providing a good design everyone likes. The ball's in their court.

[Rhekemi]

5 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I read the full post. What I saw was simply an added explanation as to why you feel the Art team was justified in not listening to the players.

 

The key words there are "what you saw." Unfortunately, that was neither my intention nor is it the truth. I can't reiterate the actual intention of my post any more than I have in the original post or in the post above yours. 

Explaining, in a logical and frank way, why the art team/DE most likely didn't listen to the players isn't creating a justification, it's providing a rationale and understanding.

Understanding someone's rationale (even a company's) doesn't equal agreement or justification, nor does it require our agreement. It simply is. It exists. 

Quote

However, I also disagree that the art team is not symbiotic with the players.

 

Agreed. It was a mistake to state it in black-and-white terms above (does not exist) when I'd originally stated it with nuance and clarity to begin with:

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My point, again, is that the DE (art department) is a tight-knit group of talented artists who don't rely on the symbiotic feedback relationship in quite the same way DE (developers at large) does on game mechanics, gameplay, the way the game works.

 

It exists, the bond is there, but it is not quite the same as the one we share with the developers. Again, no matter how you might feel about it, it's still true and evidenced by our inability to provide actionable feedback. Should that change? To what degree? Those are good questions.

What I stated, and what you disputed, was a statement of fact provided as a counterpoint to the "shock" and "surprise" that DE didn't listen to community feedback on Vermillion since they "are the devs that listen to us on everything else." 

You're arguing from the ideal standpoint, from what things could or should be. That's admirable, but it isn't reality or the truth.

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As I would reiterate, everyone is in this together, so we should have a certain form of feedback to each other.

 

Agreed, as I've maintained through the discussion. But we are not entitled to having our feedback heeded, and the artwork's direction changed. 

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Note, I am not salty about the ember skin release, but felt it could be better planned.

 

You don't know me so I don't blame you for adding this, but I never thought you were salty. Calling anyone "salty" just because they disagree, offer critical feedback or negative (but constructive) criticism is utter nonsense and always will be. It's a cop-out that tries to paint them as being emotional or mad instead of looking at their cogent points and coherent argument.

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The thing is, I feel the hate is justified, because you cannot dispute that people dislike the design.

1

Agreed to an extent. For me, the outpouring of negative feedback is justified and judging from the other 40-some-odd page megathread of feedback on Vermillion, DE isn't out to silence it either. They may delete or edit posts without explanation, but I challenge members to show me an official forum's mod team that doesn't do that on the regular or during a polarizing new feature launch. (The actual deletions and edits I've seen referenced make no sense and I don't agree with a number of them, though.)

I take issue with only two things (because I can't recall thing 3 at the moment):

-Bashing, non-constructive insults

-The idea that we had a right to demand change (either the adoption of IgnusDei's skin, or scrapping it to start over, or a petition, all three were mentioned) and that anything less from DE giving us said change was a betrayal or wrong.

It was never realistic, and it's impractical for so many reasons I've already listed. Chief among those reasons was the less-symbiotic relationship between the community and the artists, and the fact that the Vermillion skin was not offensive, punitive, mandatory, or unfair. It was an optional deluxe skin, albeit a poor one.

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I accept the art team makes so called mistakes sometimes. They are human like you and me.

1

Of course.

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Whether they want to take action is their problem, but unlike your perspective on giving them free reign, they are accountable to DE and us in providing a good design everyone likes. The ball's in their court.

 

My position isn't for giving them free reign, and I will ask you, again, not to mischaracterize my views or points (especially when I've gone to the trouble of quoting my words, verbatim, for your convenience). 

My perspective, to sum, again, is that we were right (the skin was unappealing and poorly designed), we had the right to give DE our negative feedback, that members on the art team should have helped the primary artist address these concerns, or the art team/primary artist should have found a way to use our constructive feedback (there was a lot of it) to improve the skin.

It's also my perspective that IgnusDei's skin is held back only by the wishes of a person or persons on the art team. The best thing there would be for that person or persons to meet Ignus half way and mend their broken relationship, allowing DE to work with Ignus again. 

What I'm against, again, is the idea that DE is obligated to heed our feedback on artwork and A) adopt IgnusDei's skin (which was a popular request) or B) scrap the skin, tell the art team to go back to the drawing board. 

We may want that power, but we do not have it, nor are we entitled to it. This is a fact, not a perspective or conjecture or a feeling.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Guest]

Actually, as seen, there are people with actionable feedback on how to improve the Vermillion skin. A perfect example is "please switch tint 3 and 4". An easy switch to make it helmet compatible with the PBR, and make the legs seperate from the helmet metals (if any). Hence, I would say we are able to provide actionable feedback that should be considered ... if we bother to critically think. This is probably why people feel so angry, because even simple things like that were not done, as if the devs/art team are forcing us to use the helmet.

There are more complex changes, like the addition of fire effects to her arm and leg "feathers" Of course, it would take more assets to turn them from feathers to candles/flames, but as mentioned, I believe the art team is talented enough to do this in a tasteful manner. Or perhaps the change in tintmaps to not section her body so much into different colored parts.

As you mentioned, DE is not obliged to listen to our feedback, especially the saltiest ones, but the truth does hurt, both the Devs (who get bashed for subpar items seen as below the high bar they set for themselves, in this case the Vermillion Skin) and the players (who realize nothing is going to be done no matter how much they whine). However, it would be nice if they did, especially basic things like the matter of tints. And another fact is that we are not obliged to say nice things either, especially if we view things in a bad light.

Thus, if DE/the artists wanted to hear nice things, they have to fish for the nice things actively. Editing forum posts and banning the salty ones would be unecessary if the problem was not created in the first place. To prevent is better than to cure, as we all know the proverb, While it's not justifiable to Dev Bash, I believe every action, no matter how ugly or inane, shows a certain trend. And sometimes it would be better to take a step back. Heck, even if they wanted to push out the Vermillion skin desperately, they could have waited a month, did some final touch up, add the promised flame effects and change the tint maps. Why rush? It's not even a fancy new gun or frame that gives mastery rank. It's a skin they have all the time in the world to make.

Of course, it's not nice to tell an employee that their work over perhaps months is a "steaming pile of hot garbage" and is going to be cancelled, but it's equally bad to tell everyone to accept "garbage" for what it is. Whoever designed the skin is lucky to be anonymous, though, in such a case, because no one targeted them (given that internet trolls are a pervasive problem everywhere). And I personally don't think this is healthy for the artist, to be isolated in an ivory tower, or the players, who don't get what they want.

@RhekemiSure, feel free to contradict my stand, but I doubt I will see eye to eye with you no matter how much points are made. And one more thing, to simply comment on your argumentative pattern - the overuse of nuance could bury your original point, making your arguments very hard to follow/unclear or make it look like you lack a focused point, even if fully read due to how much qualification there is (some of which I feel is superflous to an extent). It is possibly why I possibly misinterpreted points when lacking clarifications (I believe you are not copping out and making it ambiguous on purpose). Nuanced arguments may consider everyone's point, but it's your argument and your point, remember.

TL:DR - your clarification post told me a lot more useful information than your original post, no offense, as it's short, clear and concise with no contradictions/qualfications.

[Hypernaut1]

Just from my personal experience only- 

Out of curiosity I'll ask players what they think of the skin and haven't gotten negative feedback. Some people even think it's a cool skin. Although it's likely that they are just being polite, but I believe that the skin is barely as big of an issue among most players like it is on the forum.

I think the forum outrage is truly a vocal minority. In general, I just can't see people being that upset at a skin that looks like a typical Warframe. Especially if they aren't involved in the forum drama. To them, it's just a new weird optional skin that was released, exaggerating a mowhawk the default character already has. 

[UrielColtan]

4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Just from my personal experience only- 

Out of curiosity I'll ask players what they think of the skin and haven't gotten negative feedback. Some people even think it's a cool skin. Although it's likely that they are just being polite, but I believe that the skin is barely as big of an issue among most players like it is on the forum.

I think the forum outrage is truly a vocal minority. In general, I just can't see people being that upset at a skin that looks like a typical Warframe. Especially if they aren't involved in the forum drama. To them, it's just a new weird optional skin that was released, exaggerating a mowhawk the default character already has.

 

If a skin is not a big deal, then why is DE making a big deal over the Ignusdei skin? Which, as Ignus already pointed out, they own, and so can put it in if they feel like.

Why was a mere skin worth firing someone over as well?

You also seem to be a fan of trivializing any criticism or concerns, you appear in nigh every topic with any, and repeat this "vocal minority" matra, every time, like clockwork. You already made the same comment yet you apparently don' t actually feel confident in that claim, since you feel that you have to keep saying it. If the people on forums are the vocal minority then why do you feel so compelled to fight them in many topics?

Why engage the forums at all if you find them so irrelevant?

One could say people not involved in the "forum drama" don't care about DE's drama with Ignusdei either and just want the other skin they were teased. Its easy to play that game.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

 

If a skin is not a big deal, then why is DE making a big deal over the Ignusdei skin? Which, as Ignus already pointed out, they own, and so can put it in if they feel like.

Why was a mere skin worth firing someone over as well?

You also seem to be a fan of trivializing any criticism or concerns, you appear in nigh every topic with any, and repeat this "vocal minority" matra, every time, like clockwork. You already made the same comment yet you apparently don' t actually feel confident in that claim, since you feel that you have to keep saying it. If the people on forums are the vocal minority then why do you feel so compelled to fight them in many topics?

Why engage the forums at all if you find them so irrelevant?

One could say people not involved in the "forum drama" don't care about DE's drama with Ignusdei either and just want the other skin they were teased. Its easy to play that game.

Creating a skin takes weeks of dedication, passion and hard work. If I'm an artist and I don't want to work on someone else's concept because of a disagreement, I would appreciate if the company respected that.

They don't just shove a sketch into a computer and it's spits out a 3d model.

Some of these skins were passion projects. 

Regardless of who was right or wrong, they're was a disagreement big enough to have the artist fired. Maybe the art team just didn't want to work on it out of principal. Principal that was more valuable than rants on a forum. 

That said, the skin we did get is not horrible. Hard work still went into into it. My post was just refuting the statement that EVERYONE hates it.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Aroe95]

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Just from my personal experience only- 

Out of curiosity I'll ask players what they think of the skin and haven't gotten negative feedback. Some people even think it's a cool skin. Although it's likely that they are just being polite, but I believe that the skin is barely as big of an issue among most players like it is on the forum.

I think the forum outrage is truly a vocal minority. In general, I just can't see people being that upset at a skin that looks like a typical Warframe. Especially if they aren't involved in the forum drama. To them, it's just a new weird optional skin that was released, exaggerating a mowhawk the default character already has. 

Hmm, dunno bout you but most ppl that i asked didn't rly like the deluxe.. Well, maybe just different people have a different taste. Still, getting ember from her traditional mohawk would be a good change of air for those who main her imo though.