Don't Just Update Operator Gameplay: Update Their Movement Too

[PsychedelicSnake]

The most recent devstream went into detail about the Focus rework, which will "focus" on the Operator's combat ability. It's controversial for sure, but I'd be lying if I said the Operators didn't need it. However, if this is the case I don't think this is far enough.

Yes, Warframes right now are more powerful in terms of damage output. But what really makes them superior to Operators is their movement. Warframe movement is more free, more fluid, and more responsive. Operator movement is clunky, less free, less fluid. Warframes are cars that can turn on a dime and Operators are cars with no wheels that can only go straight. If the devs really want to make Operators more of a focus, they're going to need to update the Operator movement in addition to their mechanics and gameplay. 

Making them exactly on-par with Warframes in terms of mobility and maneuverability is debatable, but keeping them as they are will only make the problem more obvious as their mechanics are updated.

[PsiWarp]

For some reason I'm getting a mental image of a frame throwing its Operator toward the Teralyst, which gets hit by the Operator's Void energy as he/she uses Transference mid-air to teleport the Warframe in his/her place to do a bit of damage before landing. They did say tag-team battle.

[(PSN)joe03827]

I totally agree with you. With movement like the one we currently have we won't be able to battle the Eidolons. We'd just get instantly eradicated.

Maybe we can get a super void sprint or something, or teleportation; something that would save our lives.

[Chipputer]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume that movement would be updated with combat tweaks. Movement is, inherently, part of combat. 

Furthermore, making them on part with the frames, in any case, would be a negative. They are meant to represent a dichotomy-- frames are resilient and operators are fragile. Doing anything to break this dichotomy would make the entire narrative point of the Operators meaningless.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Doing anything to break this dichotomy would make the entire narrative point of the Operators meaningless.

not only in terms of lore but gameplay as well. the closer they get to actual warframes the more redudant they become, too* (*cough* if they aren't already anyway *cough*)...

 

*edit: or even vice versa.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Chipputer]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

not only in terms of lore but gameplay as well. the closer they get to actual warframes the more redudant they become, too

Yes.

The Warframes need the Tenno and the Tenno need the Warframes. Making the Tenno too powerful will cause them to no longer need the Warframes and make their entire existence meaningless. May as well scrap them, at that point, and just go back to the Warframes being full of magical space goo that we aren't sure of.

Anyway, neither OP or DE are implying they'll do that so it's a moot point but still something to keep in consideration.

[OniDax]

41 minutes ago, PsychedelicSnake said:

The most recent devstream went into detail about the Focus rework, which will "focus" on the Operator's combat ability. It's controversial for sure, but I'd be lying if I said the Operators didn't need it. However, if this is the case I don't think this is far enough.

Yes, Warframes right now are more powerful in terms of damage output. But what really makes them superior to Operators is their movement. Warframe movement is more free, more fluid, and more responsive. Operator movement is clunky, less free, less fluid. Warframes are cars that can turn on a dime and Operators are cars with no wheels that can only go straight. If the devs really want to make Operators more of a focus, they're going to need to update the Operator movement in addition to their mechanics and gameplay. 

Making them exactly on-par with Warframes in terms of mobility and maneuverability is debatable, but keeping them as they are will only make the problem more obvious as their mechanics are updated.

Yes, Operator movement should be reworked. Honestly, though, I disagree that Warframe movement is more fluid. I think Warframe movement is just as clunky as Operator movement. It's just faster. I'd like to see Warframes and Operators get some motion-captured and IK-based animations. That'd make them smoother and more fluid. Other than that, certainly Operators need to have mobility like Warframes. I don't think they should be as fast as Warframes, but the movement animations as a whole should be more natural and more responsive, and I think going with motion-captured animations is the way to achieve that. In general, it would also just improve the feel of free roam in the game.

[AlphaPHENIX]

I would say just giving them the ability to roll and crouch (without using up energy) is gona be enough.

I mean those kids can uze zip-lines just fine, I repeat, ZIP-LINES (don't belive me? go try it). Are you telling me that a child, who could atend for a circus if it wanted...can't do a simple roll?

Edited September 16, 2017 by AlphaPHENIX

[Chipputer]

17 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

those kids can uze zip-lines just fine, I repeat, ZIP-LINES (don't belive me? go try it).

Oh snap. You're right.

I wonder who's responsible for that oversight?

[BrazilianJoe]

I think it would be ok to do human-level parkouring. walking/sprinting, rolling, jumping, vaulting over small objects, ledge grabbing, a modest wall hop just enough to vault over an enemy and distract it. NOT at the fundunkulous levels that Warframes do, mind you. 

I would like to see a third level of link of the operator with the warframe, in which the warframe can move around and do its thing - similar to letting it be controlled by a spectre AI - while the operator is also bobbing about controlled by the player. This kind of gameplay should be complemented with additional commands beyond the "X to stay/move" that exists with NPCs currently. I should be able to tell it to guard something/someone, or just shout via telephatic link to HOLD THAT DOOR to prevent anyone from coming in. Or save me. 

It would be SUPER COOL to have a warframe with an AI mod screen, with mod precepts which could change the AI's behaviour. Like, letting the player tune the frame into a more or less agressive frame, prefer melee or ranged, how protective of the operator, how ability-happy would he be, whether to prefer or avoid VIPs, that sort of thing. 

 

 

[13QZXXTTX]

Move like {Ninjas}.

Almost feel the same as WarFrames, but not able to carry Weapons and use WarFrames abilities

[QueenKharn]

I am down with the dichotomy we have right now and hope they expand on it. I wouldn't like Operators to be anywhere near as mobile or durable as Warframes in that case.

[SpoonyBrad]

6 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

I think it would be ok to do human-level parkouring. walking/sprinting, rolling, jumping, vaulting over small objects, ledge grabbing, a modest wall hop just enough to vault over an enemy and distract it. NOT at the fundunkulous levels that Warframes do, mind you. 

I would like to see a third level of link of the operator with the warframe, in which the warframe can move around and do its thing - similar to letting it be controlled by a spectre AI - while the operator is also bobbing about controlled by the player. This kind of gameplay should be complemented with additional commands beyond the "X to stay/move" that exists with NPCs currently. I should be able to tell it to guard something/someone, or just shout via telephatic link to HOLD THAT DOOR to prevent anyone from coming in. Or save me. 

It would be SUPER COOL to have a warframe with an AI mod screen, with mod precepts which could change the AI's behaviour. Like, letting the player tune the frame into a more or less agressive frame, prefer melee or ranged, how protective of the operator, how ability-happy would he be, whether to prefer or avoid VIPs, that sort of thing. 

 

 

I would love to see this; as it stands now, particularly Madurai (almost inarguably the weakest school) has the problem of "I literally levitate 6 inches off the ground, annihilating anything I look at (provided I'm not in a high level area, because my damage does not scale), yet cannot jump and can have my nuke-them-in-the-face power interrupted if I step off a cliff (excuse me: fly off one)". The operators aren't supposed to be hyper-mobile like warframes (that's sort of part of the point of the frames), but if my void-derived powers allow me to literally fly? Maybe I should be a touch more mobile than a normal human, even a highly skilled one (erm, I seem to have derailed this train of thought onto "Madurai needs some buffs"). I'm not sure, lore-wise, I'd be 100% behind letting the frame continue to function (or, y'know, "operate") when the operator isn't linked to it, but that could actually be justified as a school ability (it feels a touch silly, when both operator and warframe are invulnerable while the power is active, to need to provide covering fire to your warframe towards the end of the ability use, lest you suddenly snap back to it while it's in the midst of a million enemies). Considering that, in particular, Madurai's schtick is "annihilate the enemy" (well "Engage the Enemy", but specifically to engage them so fast and hard they don't have time to prepare for the onslaught), giving them an ability where the frame actually remains active and mobile while also using Phoenix Gaze, while the operator is also fairly mobile (given that they can demonstrably fly, maybe switch briefly to Archwing controls, so the operator could literally burst into the air, Superman style, and rain down destruction with the gaze itself? That's probably not going to be a popular idea, though, since most of the community seems to dislike Archwing) would be in keeping with the school's teachings, at least in my book.

I think operator mode isn't supposed to be a case of "now you see how strong I really am!" (and curbstomp battle commences), but a brief moment of clarity in a lucid dream; while physically weak (yet not actually physically present at the location of the warframe), the operator can literally alter reality by thinking about it, and their powers are so strong that they're dangerous to themselves, so you'd have to be extremely focused (in a way that isn't maintainable for long) to safely exercise them. Whether they can multitask well enough to also keep the warframe running, well, that's a matter of focus (and Focus).

I do really like the idea of an AI mod screen, particularly if it also worked for specters. Having a specter that actually knows "use Hirudo instead of your rifle when your health is low", or "When I say 'hold position' you're still allowed to roam this far"? Ah yiss...

[SpoonyBrad]

2 hours ago, KokoroWish said:

I am down with the dichotomy we have right now and hope they expand on it. I wouldn't like Operators to be anywhere near as mobile or durable as Warframes in that case.

I do like the dichotomy (and I loved the experience, in The Second Dream, of having my warframe carry my operator, who was literally too weak to stand (I'd say spoiler alert, but if you're a new player and you've read this far in the thread and haven't figured out there are spoilers, well...)), but a bit more mobility would be nice. Nothing like what the frames have, but "human or mildly superhuman level parkour", with some mobility enhancements available as Focus abilities (particularly for *cough*Madurai*cough*; as a previous poster implied, Unairu could use a buff or twelve, but mobility or rapid assault isn't their thing, while it's the central focus for Madurai) would be A.O.K. with me. The operator themself is extremely physically weak (again, "too weak to stand"), but operator mode is a whole 'nother matter: it's a psychic projection produced by the actual operator through wacky void powers (combined with Orokin tech), and not actually the operator.

In no sense am I recommending that operator mode allow you to use warframe abilities, or warframe-like abilities (including using weapons a baseline human couldn't even lift; it's a psychic projection, after all, and I sorta assumed it was probably invulnerable because it was intangible). Isn't the point of the frames, in part, to channel the operator's powers into controlled forms? Operator mode, from a lore perspective, seems to be designed to say "screw these 'controlled forms', I'm waking up and whipping out the big guns [for a few seconds]".

I want to keep the dichotomy, but I don't want the rift between the two to get even wider; the meta seems to be very heavily gravitating towards "use operator mode exactly once, to turn on the passive focus abilities you have enabled, then never touch it again", and that seems a bit far towards one end (although nobody ever said Warframe was balanced, at least in my hearing, so what do I know).