Should passive energy regeneration be a norm for our Warframes? (Like Archwing)

[Volinus7]

When there's a fork in the road most of the time dumbing the game down is DE's favorite choice, look at how much WF is trivialized. Every frame might even get built-in Trin battery at this point lol.

Energy economy is not even the root of the problem, it's just a secondary factor which can be easily balanced based on primary factors like difficulty/pacing/ability/enemy designs. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited September 19, 2017 by Volinus7

[RX-3DR]

27 minutes ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

So if we were to remove not just Zenurik, but Vacuum, Energy Siphon and Arcane Energize too - would you "it's just about skill"tards be happy? Of course not, quality of life is a highly important aspect to a game that is supposed to be relaxing for a man after he gets home from 8 hours in work. You entitled whiners saying "it's fine just get better" don't seem to understand that people with jobs and lives have bigger things to worry about than their favourite game being turned into a bigger grinding S#&$fest than it already became with the introduction of the relic system.

 

Why have reload speed mods? Just get good and learn to not die for a split second longer.

Why have punch through mods? Just get good and learn to shoot multiple enemies.

Why have damage mods? Just get good and learn to headshot.

This line of reasoning is absurd in the extreme and you should be intellectually ashamed of yourself for daring to entertain the idea of abolishing passive energy regeneration.

So basically, your opinion is worth more because everyone is deemed entitled? If you will the game to be relaxing in your perspective, must the game and everyone else conform to your demands? You do know that there was a point in time where Focus, Vacuum and Arcane Energize did not exist and there were people who still enjoyed coming home after a long day of work to play Warframe, right?

You should be the one ashamed of yourself for demanding developers create a game solely for your entertainment and making false equivalencies to attempt to prove a moot point.

[HowlAtTheMoon]

27 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

So basically, your opinion is worth more because everyone is deemed entitled? If you will the game to be relaxing in your perspective, must the game and everyone else conform to your demands? You do know that there was a point in time where Focus, Vacuum and Arcane Energize did not exist and there were people who still enjoyed coming home after a long day of work to play Warframe, right?

You should be the one ashamed of yourself for demanding developers create a game solely for your entertainment and making false equivalencies to attempt to prove a moot point.

"You should be the one ashamed of yourself for demanding developers create a game solely for your entertainment..." is the most hypocritical line of argument you could have possibly chosen to adopt, given it can be completely reversed on you. As if to prove my point, you should be intellectually ashamed for having used it.

 

I am well aware, I've played for over 4 years, the release of the Carrier was one of the finest updates in my memory because of the sheet quality of life it included. Everyone eventually *@##$ed about it being overused, and so Vacuum was made into a general mod, and that's fine - because it did not remove a feature from the game.

When I experienced Specters of the Rail, this was one of the worst updates in my memory. The reason? Because in order to add content to the game, it first *REMOVED* a feature from the game. 

Pay attention to that fact: An update is absolutely fine so long as it does not remove content.

 

Furthermore, would you care to address my point of:

"Why have reload speed mods? Just get good and learn to not die for a split second longer.

Why have punch through mods? Just get good and learn to shoot multiple enemies.

Why have damage mods? Just get good and learn to headshot."

 

Oh, and to capitulate to your apparently over-inflated sense of self worth: this is ~only my opinion~

Edited September 19, 2017 by HowlAtTheMoon

[letir]

Anybody want to think about newbies, who cannot afford energy restoration?

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

Oh yeah, Energy overflow is going poof. I don't know, I think maybe making 2.5 a second at max is a good change 

[Pitman]

For me and other veterans it's fine to not have passive energy regen. I have around 400 energy pizzas right and will keep crafting until PoE ships.

But for newer players this is huge. I imagine the game already loses some new players because they never see the abilities of their Warframes.

Remember, they don't have the following:

- Energy Siphon

- Energy pizzas

- Rage

- Efficiency mods

- Weapons with syndicate proc

- Weapons of mass destruction

 

I don't think telling your players that they constantly need to craft energy pizzas is a good idea. If I were to tell anyone this they probably wouldn't want to play. Zenruik was a bandaid solution and with removing it a proper solution needs to be put in its place.

Edited September 20, 2017 by PitmanE957

[Campaigner]

People will just use the energy-hungry frame builds LESS once they nerf Zenurik and use the 75% efficiency-compatible spam frame builds MORE (get ready for volt spam and other CCs 24/7).

Hope you guys love shooting immobile enemies caught in volt/vauban/excal cc spam because once they nerf DPS abilities (by nerfing Zenurik) that's all you're going to see.

So fun. Much dynamic action. Wow.

[RX-3DR]

8 hours ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

"You should be the one ashamed of yourself for demanding developers create a game solely for your entertainment..." is the most hypocritical line of argument you could have possibly chosen to adopt, given it can be completely reversed on you. As if to prove my point, you should be intellectually ashamed for having used it.

 

I am well aware, I've played for over 4 years, the release of the Carrier was one of the finest updates in my memory because of the sheet quality of life it included. Everyone eventually *@##$ed about it being overused, and so Vacuum was made into a general mod, and that's fine - because it did not remove a feature from the game.

When I experienced Specters of the Rail, this was one of the worst updates in my memory. The reason? Because in order to add content to the game, it first *REMOVED* a feature from the game. 

Pay attention to that fact: An update is absolutely fine so long as it does not remove content.

 

Furthermore, would you care to address my point of:

"Why have reload speed mods? Just get good and learn to not die for a split second longer.

Why have punch through mods? Just get good and learn to shoot multiple enemies.

Why have damage mods? Just get good and learn to headshot."

 

Oh, and to capitulate to your apparently over-inflated sense of self worth: this is ~only my opinion~

There is a very big difference between "I don't think this should be a quality of life change because it is bad for the overall health of the game" and "I think we need this quality of life because I want it." There is a reason why people aren't asking for more mods like Serration and Hornet Strike.

The comparison to Vacuum is not a very good comparison. Vacuum was made into a mod but it is still a mod. It cannot be used on Kubrows and Kavaats. There is a cost associated to it and it is not a quality of life that only a select group benefits from. Passive energy regeneration as an automatic system would have no cost associated to it and really only helps people who run extremely power hungry builds by choice. Instead, this is closer to the Tonkor issue since no self-damage is a quality of life that only affects the group of people using it in a certain manner.

The false equivalency of comparing it to mods is that mods have choices, little alternatives and a cost associated with them. You are paying mod slots, mod capacity and thus, potentially losing out in other areas by using things like Reload Speed and Punch-Through mods. There is no other alternatives around it, you cannot use consumables to bolster reload speed and you cannot build reload efficiency. If Energy Siphon is improved instead, it would still take up your only Aura slot and that brings in choices between it and other Auras such as Corrosive Projection, something a free system completely ignores.

Your opinion offers nothing constructive. It is selfish demand for the game to conform to your desires and pointing fingers at anyone against you and calling them entitled whiners. 

[failedtodiet]

Just give casual players like me passive energy regen, and give elite people a button to turn it off with a +50% eliteness bonus to their elite rating.

[Volinus7]

Currently energy regen in WF is just a huge noobgate and there's no tutorial for it lol.

It has nothing to do with balance since it's never been balanced, all these magikarps using splash in forums are pretty fun to watch lulz.

This is like health regen is for casul in fps genre all over again. 

 

Early players' experience in Vor's prize quest should be the reference for balancing WF not the cc spamming cage or perma invis bs.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Volinus7

[Cifrer]

I've literally never used Energy Overflow.  Don't even have it,, never bothered unlocking Zenurik.

What exactly is so special about it?  What is it that makes people feel that it's mandatory to have?

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

5 hours ago, PitmanE957 said:

For me and other veterans it's fine to not have passive energy regen. I have around 400 energy pizzas right and will keep crafting until PoE ships.

But for newer players this is huge. I imagine the game already loses some new players because they never see the abilities of their Warframes.

Remember, they don't have the following:

- Energy Siphon

- Energy pizzas

- Rage

- Efficiency mods

- Weapons with syndicate proc

- Weapons of mass destruction

 

I don't think telling your players that they constantly need to craft energy pizzas is a good idea. If I were to tell anyone this they probably wouldn't want to play. Zenruik was a bandaid solution and with removing it a proper solution needs to be put in its place.

Energy syphon if your warframe isn't polarized for it you need to forma for. It also because of the forma'ing locks your warframe into only a handful of auras for that polarity. This is an issue with auras as a whole.

Pizzas are the biggest crutch in the game. You can have 100 at once and drop as many as you need.

Rage you need to face-tank for, which only benefits heavily armored frames, and requires an extra mod for squishier ones so they don't insta-die. Also you need to keep replenishing your health pools to keep fueling the energy ones.

Syndicate weapons corner your variety yet again to only a handful of weapons. Friggin loved seeing Simulor everywhere lemme tell you.

3 hours ago, Cifrer said:

I've literally never used Energy Overflow.  Don't even have it,, never bothered unlocking Zenurik.

What exactly is so special about it?  What is it that makes people feel that it's mandatory to have?

Caster frames who rely primarily on their abilities to survive. Have you ever been in a mob of enemies as Mag with zero energy? And saying "I don't play Mag" only solidifies the point. Banshee also falls into the no energy she dies category.

[DasHurz]

I wouldn't mind if they reworked the whole thing, removed energy altogether and gave abilities cooldowns instead. With efficiency mods reducing cooldown.

It's a massive undertaking though because they'd have to test cooldowns for every single ability, so it's not gonna happen.

[phoenix1992]

This is going nowhere.
 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Caster frames who rely primarily on their abilities to survive. Have you ever been in a mob of enemies as Mag with zero energy? And saying "I don't play Mag" only solidifies the point. Banshee also falls into the no energy she dies category.

You there, sorry for picking you, but you seem to be knowledgeable person.

In which encounters, what frames with what builds are not able to operate without Zenurik and this is caused due to what. 

[Zeiss17]

I say yes for the sole reason of not taking a step forward and two backwards. Don't just remove stuff, add more!

[letir]

23 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

This is going nowhere.
 

You there, sorry for picking you, but you seem to be knowledgeable person.

In which encounters, what frames with what builds are not able to operate without Zenurik and this is caused due to what. 

Avalanche Frost, for example. He need Power Strength to strip armor and deal damage, and constant suportflow of energy to use abilities. Without Zenurik he is uncapable to spam Avalanche, and dosen't have much space to build enough duration.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, letir said:

Avalanche Frost, for example. He need Power Strength to strip armor and deal damage, and constant suportflow of energy to use abilities. Without Zenurik he is uncapable to spam Avalanche, and dosen't have much space to build enough duration.

I asked for multiple examples with full builds and situations in which this build should behave how.  I have seen couple of builds considering Avalanche Frost and there does not seem to be a common consensus about what is expected of this build.
 

[LokiTheCondom]

7 hours ago, failedtodiet said:

Just give casual players like me passive energy regen, and give elite people a button to turn it off with a +50% eliteness bonus to their elite rating.

Actually that doesn't sound like a bad idea :D I play this game for one sole reason: killing stuffs for fun, and the powers are one of the things that helps to stack the body count. Disable the passive if you want to challenge yourself, but still let others have their fun.

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

I asked for multiple examples with full builds and situations in which this build should behave how.  I have seen couple of builds considering Avalanche Frost and there does not seem to be a common consensus about what is expected of this build.
 

This is my build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Frost_prime/t_30_2334044230_2-5-10-6-4-5-12-0-10-13-2-3-19-6-10-34-8-5-46-3-5-55-1-5-479-7-10-615-9-5_12-8-55-6-13-7-46-6-6-11-2-6-19-7-479-7-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-8
 

Powerful in Sorties, but not efficient at all

[phoenix1992]

22 minutes ago, letir said:

This is my build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Frost_prime/t_30_2334044230_2-5-10-6-4-5-12-0-10-13-2-3-19-6-10-34-8-5-46-3-5-55-1-5-479-7-10-615-9-5_12-8-55-6-13-7-46-6-6-11-2-6-19-7-479-7-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-8
 

Powerful in Sorties, but not efficient at all

Thank you for sharing (your build seems to be outliner, for the record most other builds do not run duration at all), but I have couple of questions:
1) Does 4 energy per second come close towards having enough energy for recasting Avalance (considering your efficiency)  if any dispel effect shows up?
2) What is the expected kills per minute with that Build?
3) How does this effect non Armor enemies?
4) The goal seems to be striping enemies out of armor and putting them in CC lock, but this can succumb fast next to Corpus units, Axi fissures and Mot, what is your alternative win condition?

 

27 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Actually that doesn't sound like a bad idea :D I play this game for one sole reason: killing stuffs for fun, and the powers are one of the things that helps to stack the body count. Disable the passive if you want to challenge yourself, but still let others have their fun.

Actually it does not sound like a bad idea to lock out this option for any Fissure, Sortie, Trials, Nighmare missions and kuva floods because when you "play this game for one sole reason : killing stuff for fun", you don't need the work/risk to reward scenarios, but this does not seem so fun when it is put like that, does it?

PS: @letir, i am not poking your build out of spite, I am asking since this is not my play style and I don't know what is the expected pay off from this. I prefer agile builds in most frames.

Edited September 20, 2017 by phoenix1992

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Thank you for sharing (your build seems to be outliner, for the record most other builds do not run duration at all), but I have couple of questions:
1) Does 4 energy per second come close towards having enough energy for recasting Avalance (considering your efficiency)  if any dispel effect shows up?
2) What is the expected kills per minute with that Build?
3) How does this effect non Armor enemies?
4) The goal seems to be striping enemies out of armor and putting them in CC lock, but this can succumb fast next to Corpus units, Axi fissures and Mot, what is your alternative win condition?

1) With Zenurik it's ~24 seconds for one cast without energy, and ~12 seconds with full energy. With ~10 seconds Duration it coming pretty close to recastable with energy-restoring weapon.

Without Energy Overflow it's ~159 seconds, one-cast nuke.

2) Weapon dependant. It can strip armor from entire room, making them easy prey to Viral/Slash weapons. CC effect come in handy for launchers and shotguns. Lenz or Tonkor can take down most enemies in one shot, at least at <150lvl range.

3) Cold damage can strip some shields from Corpus enemies, but nothing spectacular. Better bring another build,

4) This is mostly anti-Grineer aromr-stripping build. It still works against Corrupted Bombards and Gunners, if you deal with Nullifiers fast enough. In other situations Duration build will work better.

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, letir said:

1) With Zenurik it's ~24 seconds for one cast without energy, and ~12 seconds with full energy. With ~10 seconds Duration it coming pretty close to recastable with energy-restoring weapon.

Without Energy Overflow it's ~159 seconds, one-cast nuke.

2) Weapon dependant. It can strip armor from entire room, making them easy prey to Viral/Slash weapons. CC effect come in handy for launchers and shotguns. Lenz or Tonkor can take down most enemies in one shot, at least at <150lvl range.

3) Cold damage can strip some shields from Corpus enemies, but nothing spectacular. Better bring another build,

4) This is mostly anti-Grineer aromr-stripping build. It still works against Corrupted Bombards and Gunners, if you deal with Nullifiers fast enough. In other situations Duration build will work better.

Thanks for the feedback, this seems like an working build and I will withhold my critique towards it. It is working and you seem to enjoy it while having enough wisdom to not use it when it is handicapped.  
But in PoE EO is not the only thing that will be gone, would you be mostly ok with builds that do not rely or flat out can't use EO (or Syphon and other means of enchanted energy regeneration) loosing Naramon, Vazarin and Marudai? 

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Thanks for the feedback, this seems like an working build and I will withhold my critique towards it. It is working and you seem to enjoy it while having enough wisdom to not use it when it is handicapped.  
But in PoE EO is not the only thing that will be gone, would you be mostly ok with builds that do not rely or flat out can't use EO (or Syphon and other means of enchanted energy regeneration) loosing Naramon, Vazarin and Marudai? 

There is builds with good efficiency, like Ember WoF with high duration, or Nyx kit. There is also Rage-fueled builds on tank frames. We can survive without EO, we did well enough before. It's just like all power-hungry builds will be inoperable without Pizza spam or Trinity. This is most realatable problem for all players.

Naramon's Shadow Step is simply OP. Madurai and Vazarin giving some nice things, but nothing too important for gameplay.

[LokiTheCondom]

51 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Actually it does not sound like a bad idea to lock out this option for any Fissure, Sortie, Trials, Nighmare missions and kuva floods because when you "play this game for one sole reason : killing stuff for fun", you don't need the work/risk to reward scenarios, but this does not seem so fun when it is put like that, does it?

Implying that those missions are hard even without energy regeneration, still fun nevertheless.

Again, if you don't like it then disable (assuming that energy regen passive is ever a thing), otherwise let others be as casul as they like. :^)

Edited September 20, 2017 by LokiTheCondom

[phoenix1992]

11 minutes ago, letir said:

There is builds with good efficiency, like Ember WoF with high duration, or Nyx kit. There is also Rage-fueled builds on tank frames. We can survive without EO, we did well enough before. It's just like all power-hungry builds will be inoperable without Pizza spam or Trinity. This is most realatable problem for all players.

Naramon's Shadow Step is simply OP. Madurai and Vazarin giving some nice things, but nothing too important for gameplay.

You did not answer the question.
Is it okay that builds that never did use EO either due to lack of need for it, or flat out not working (any toogle frame), will get a global nerf, but heavy energy consumers builds (and the "Builds" that are not actually builds, but just lazy way of playing the game) may not, based on topics like that?  
I am not saying that Shadowstep is okay to exist, I am saying that in the last week I have seen a lot of claims for "Please let Zenurik stay" (or, you know segway topics like this one) that are not based on actual need, but on greed, entitlement and selfishness.  
Passive Energy regen - sure, whatever as long as it is tied to a decent alternative that fits people with alternative play styles and the fact that DE has made more than one frame that can't use Zenurik due to toggle abilities.

That guy under is one of those people.

 

10 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Implying that those missions are hard even without energy regeneration, still fun nevertheless.

Again, if you don't like it then disable (assuming that energy regen passive is ever a thing), otherwise let others be as casul as they like. :^)

Implying that different amount of efforts should give the same rewards.  Be "casual" as much as you like, don't expect to get the same results as people that are not

Edited September 20, 2017 by phoenix1992