Waybound Focus Nodes and Their Implications On Focus Farming (Over 140 MORE Days)

[WolvenEdge]

I will shamelessly bump untill this is noticed. DE, nine years of grind for players who actually have a life outside of your game is nowhere near ok.

A year and three months grind for players who do nothing but play is still not ok.

I understand that you want the game to feel worth the investment of time, that the more time and effort you put in, the better equipment and abilities you have.
This is not how you do it.

[AvatarX76]

I'd actually buy a 1 month affinity booster if I thought i'd complete most of a tree from scratch in that time (playing a couple hrs a day), otherwise... meh, I'll keep playing new content until one day DE ramps up the operator-only boss fights and my noob operator can no longer cut it.

While I'm at it, all frames should be able to gather focus equally well. We shouldn't have to use specialised builds to maximise focus farming. I'm fully behind the idea that operators should earn focus directly now, since the whole focus system is centred on them. And that would actually motivate me to upgrade my amp as, lets face it, we do quite fine killing eidolons with the basic amp for now.

And please just ditch convergence orbs already.

Edited October 24, 2017 by AvatarX76

[Gwyrgor]

While certainly I agree that this is an enormous amount of time to expect players to put in to max their focus trees... There has been little to no discussion on how long people think it should take to max it all out.

I don't think DE planned to just leave it like this. I think they put it like this as a starting point and wanted to wait to get feedback before adjusting it. But at the same time they're probably concerned about people running out of goals to work toward so they wouldn't want it too low. Obviously this is all just a guess on my part but they're the factors I would be considering if I were a developer.

Personally, as someone who plays the game a lot (usually 8-12 hours a day, 5-7 days a week), but at the same time is relatively casual, I'm okay with it taking up to a year (with greater lenses). I'm not okay with it taking two or more years. And that is for someone who does not actively go out and grind focus. Sure I try to make an effort to get the focus orbs when they pop and usually try to maximize affinity when I have one going. But I don't really sweat it.

Obviously I think it should take significantly less time for people that really work at it.

3 minutes ago, AvatarX76 said:

I'm fully behind the idea that operators should earn focus directly now, since the whole focus system is centred on them. And that would actually motivate me to upgrade my amp as, lets face it, we do quite fine killing eidolons with the basic amp for now.

And please just ditch convergence orbs already.

I totally agree that operators should earn focus directly. I was really surprised they didn't.

I'm probably in the minority but I actually like convergence orbs. Though I wouldn't pitch a fit if they were removed.

[racooperii]

The whole guts of this system need to change.

A Daily Cap is ok. A Resource Burn(Like Capacity) is ok. A Daily Cap and a Resource Burn together is Not OK.

The rate of acquisition and the cost of each node are in such opposition from each other it's almost comical. I'm still only in the 1/4 Mil range, which if I could deal with if I could even Reach the Cap playing Normally. Key word Normally, not Sleepquinox Extermination-Affinity Booster specialized farm. Just normal game play over the course of 3-4 hours, seems like a reasonable request.

Convergence Orb needs to DIE. Having a group of super powered ninja killing machines, stop killing and handling the objective to go pick up a shiny gold orb to earn what Should be the Passive Rate anyways, is just bad design.

The worst is I actually like the new node structure and the benefits. But that Grind is enough to turn away potential new players. I mean just think about it, who wants to play a game when they hear that parts of it can take 400 days + to finish...with real dedication at that?

 

[Bigdji_Rodgers]

Yep the actual system is too grindy
 

Pushing the daily cap to 500 K would be a first step (would still require more than 200 days to complete everything)

But before that why not giving the possibility to get focus with those "facultative objectives" we have in every mission beside xp (xp could stay as the standart reward before unlocking the focus trees) ?

As MCGamerCZ said in his video : giving a few amount of focus from doing a simple mission (could go onward if the mission is in high level)

Why not giving us daily objectives that would give focus ?  The few examples that come to my mind are

- completing the sorties ( an advantage to those who done the War within but the use of focus is post-war within focused soooo ...) could give like 10 K focus points or even more

- completing the LoR raid and completing it in nightmare mode could give like 50 K or more

- Killing 100/200/300/500/1000 enemies from a specific faction (could go crescendo if you kill more and more)

- killing some bosses

- finishing a mission without taking damage/being detected or whatever

- Collecting 50/100/200 fishes

The list could be longer and i think it would give a lot more interest in connecting every day

Focus alerts ? maybe ?

 

In short, give us focus from playing the game normally and doing diversified things, would be very nice and would make the focus more enjoyable to farm

[Yaohru]

The current focus rework is a joke. Either this is an oversight on the dev's part, or DE don't respect our time at all. Thanks to how utterly boring and grindy everything related to the operators are I'm caring about them less and less. It genuinely feels as though DE want us to hate these boring, underpowered, whiny teenagers.

[Dead_Rabbits]

wewanttoreducethegrind™

By doing the opposite, classic de.

[jetpack_jack]

i think the idea that you should be able max all focus nodes in an easy amount of time is both naive & unrealistic. my first hornet strike & serration weren't maxed in a day, a week or even a month. it took steady progress to reach their full potential at max rank, but they were always essential additions in weapon build loadouts ! each rank of a mod has incremental power gain that is not proportional to the resource cost to achieve that rank, so every time you increase a level, the cost effectively doubles, hence players often  say '8/10 serration, or 9/10 Primed Flow . . .  or whatever mod, is good enough at that level, while you invest resources/time  into other mods, then eventually you will be able to max every mod, but still have reasonable benefit from part-maxed mods in the mean time. 

it's a balance of costs versus benefits, and the fact that fusing a mod through the last rank level, cost the same amount of endo as all previous levels combined, doesn't mean a part ranked mod is useless, or that the mod fusing system with endo is broken, merely that the time and effort required, may best be spread across a broad range of goals/targets, and having future milestones to aim for, is inevitable!

it appears the focus system mirrors this design, in that you get the same incremental power gain, for ever higher points cost, till the node is maxed. to have all the way-bound passives available, unbound from all schools, seems like a powerful proposition and gaining that level of power will involve effort.

so we come to a numbers game, are the node costs too high, or increase too steeply? are the way-pool costs to high or increase to steeply? is the focus earning cap too low? or is the affinity conversion to focus generally too low, or lens conversion bonuses to low? or do we need even higher costed/tiered lenses to enable greater focus gain over shorter time? there are many variables to consider, but expecting to max out the focus system quickly, is a question of what we each consider to be 'quickly' !

DE are always willing to consider reasonable suggestions to tweaking the numbers of all game mechanics & systems, but managing expectations of maxing a whole game system is always going to be contentious. it's great to discuss this issue & i hope many good suggestions are put forward here !

as it stands, i see focus as a set of optional nodes to empower & enhance our gameplay, some benefit is available the instant you unlock a focus node, for just 50k focus points, but to maximise it's potential currently  , will take many many millions, is focus broken or game-breakingly un-achievable? i think not, but the numbers do need to be re-assessed to make sure the progression curve of costs & benefits has balance. having played this game since closed beta, i have seen plenty of game systems & mechanics evolve & i continue to have faith that DE can bring balance to focus, but i dont think focus is exceptionally un-balanced, if the aim is to milestone goals of focus, over time, much like the progression in the mod system ! however, i do think some individual nodes need much more meaningful use, to warrant the cost of maximising that node, so i expect some changes over time  :)   JpJ

[Kana_Kirishima]

Ditto for most of the points said already.. I won't add any new points but rather my opinion.

As a casual veteran who usually plays for 3-4hrs before burning out on the grind a few times a week, seeing this has made me even more discouraged to bother with this game. I hardly bothered with focus 1.0. I maxed energy overflow and called it a day with zenurik and the same with shadow step with naramon, I didn't even consider other focus schools. 

Now that the numbers have been run, it honestly makes me feel more disheartened than ever. I want to like this game, I really do but this update takes grinding too an extreme level where a fair majority of players wouldn't be able to access some or any of the focus schools and for that matter, a lot of end game content.

I don't have the time nor life to farm 3k brilliant eidalon shards, nor spend 10+ years maxing all focus schools (for a very casual player who doesn't use lenses religiously) for a niche role of killing eidalons. I am sure as hell not using my operator to fight lvl 50+ mobs.. This is made even more poignant when you have other commitments in life: work, family, full-time education and so on..

I am not saying we should be able to complete all focus schools in several weeks or a few months. But there needs to be consideration for the player base who actively farms focus and those who don't and those who are simply incapable to do so.

[Dead_Rabbits]

1 hour ago, jetpack_jack said:

'8/10 serration, or 9/10 Primed Flow . . .  or whatever mod, is good enough at that leve

Except it doesn't take 9 years to casually max either of those, I mean I love this game, but I doubt it's going to be around in 9 years, we need a more realistic timeline.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Dead_Rabbits

[racooperii]

 

1 hour ago, jetpack_jack said:

i think the idea that you should be able max all focus nodes in an easy amount of time is both naive & unrealistic

And I think having a grind that requires 400 days of dedicated farming is unrealistic and bad design. I can get 3 Syndicates maxed, for far greater rewards mind you, in less time than that.

No one in this thread is asking for it in a day, a week, a month, but over a year? Over a year of dedicating yourself every day to this grind, a grind that is really only achievable with a huge time investment per day or a very specific build.

Comparing Focus to Mods is naïve in my opinion. Mods never required much more than Normal Play to level them up, you run missions and you can get Endo as a drop, from melting excess mods or even in bulk as a mission rotation reward. Focus, you get from killing...and you really only get an amount worth the effort when you're killing under the effects of Convergence, and you really only have a chance of capping in a reasonable amount of time if you have a specific load out on a specific mission type. Mod Ranking you're almost always working on without even trying and having fun, Focus all but requires you to...well Focus on it and it alone to even put a dent into the damn thing.

The Time + Effort vs Reward of Focus is so one sided it's laughable, even more so that they're pushing for it into Mid-Tier Content. And yes, I'm calling Focus 2.0 Mid-Tier. Lenses are from Mid-Tier Bounties, Most Kuva Siphons are Mid-Tier Missions and the Eidolon is also Mid-Tier if that. Yet, Focus 2.0 still has an End-Game price tag...not even End-Game and End-Game-Nothing-Left-To-Do price tag still attached to it.

 

 

[WolvenEdge]

I've been thinking on solutions for this, and so far, I've run into several idea bases, currently with little substance.

1; reduce the cost of the focus perks.
     This is the simplest and near the bottom of my list of preference. This would directly reduce the grind, but would also make the worth of the feat lesser, as some have complained. Personally, unless 2 is met, I can't agree; the tiny boosts and quirks aren't worth the massive grind, and don't influence non-operator gameplay.

2; increase the effectiveness of each perk so that the grind becomes somewhat worth it.
     The current perks don't interact with standard gameplay, nor are they a large enough or utilitarian enough investment to justify their cost in any way. By making the perks interact with our warframe as well (just as an example, making Naramon's Surging Dash augment work for warframes as well when channeling melee or something like) would make the investment more worthwhile. While not a perfect solution, combined with other measures, it could actually make the focus system outright enjoyable to use and grow in.

3; increase the affinity gain.
     While very close to 1, this is different enough to mark its own space, as there are more methods. More ways to gain affinity, more and easier-to-obtain lenses, and affinity gain reworks would all fall into this category. I don't have many ideas personally, as I'm not taking the time to do the math (just brainstorming atm), but there are many options to consider, such as experience rewards for certain acts.

4; unlink the gain of Focus from affinity.
     I like this one best; give it its own progression system, and keep affinity as it is. While this would separate the operator and warframe further, combining it with 2 would tie things together in an, at least, tolerable manner. The convergence orbs could actually be used in this, as a way to track this resource through the map or some such, similar to Simaris' hunts, finding more information and learning to apply it, rather than being forced to remember the Way on your own... which would also give Onkko some more use, as, for now, he's only a shopkeeper.

Any combination of ideas in these categories, while likely not perfect, would at least ease the burden and/or make the burden more enjoyable. I would like to combine 2 and 3/4, personally, as making the perks more worth it, and allowing the resource required to unlock them to be gained in more varied ways (thus more fun, if not less time) appeals to me, and in turn has the potential to make the game's lifespan longer without inducing the very boredom it is intended to alleviate.

Thoughts, suggestions, etc. welcome. Might even turn it into its own thread if enough comes together.

Edited October 25, 2017 by WolvenEdge

[Masamune7]

13 hours ago, dbzocchi said:

my child would be fatherless until he was 9 because of this focus system - thanks D.E

Your child is a small price to pay for all the focus content DE has to offer!

[KittyDarkling]

I'm not entirely sure where the issue is here. I don't mind knowing that it'll be a year until I'm apparently a god of the void. And the grind for focus is pretty quick. I'm not even the kind of person who grinds all that hard and I knock out all 250k in less than an hour, I know a few who do it in 20m. I support you guys voicing your opinions, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in as well. So respectfully I disagree!

[Pyradus]

Waybound nodes strike me as something they threw out there as a distraction while they come up with more content. I doubt they seriously expect anyone to max all of them, nor is it even within the realm of sanity with how much they cost.

Edited October 25, 2017 by CapnToaster

[Ceryk]

I'm not entirely sure I support the idea of removing the cap. I would prefer if they lowered the costs of the nodes and made it so focus was actually gained by legitimately playing the game and people could reach the cap without their brains melting from the boredom involved in Focus Farming. But the more of these threads highlighting the overall problem that working on Focus is neither a reasonable nor an attainable goal for most players in the state it currently is in, the better chances of SOMETHING getting done about it.

I have my own thread on the horribleness of the Focus Exp system that's been going pretty strong. Keeping threads like these on the problems with trying to work on focus at the top of the forums is something we need to do to keep the attention on the horrible state of actually trying to get these nodes filled and hopefully get something done about it.

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Ceryk

[Cortanis]

1 minute ago, CapnToaster said:

Waybound nodes strike me as something they threw out there as a distraction while they come up with more content. I doubt they seriously expect anyone to max all of them, nor is it reasonable to.

That is rather the problem. Most of the waybound nodes are really basic stats. If anything, they should have been some of the first nodes you were able to unlock and unbind per tree. After all, they did this in a large effort to push operator play right? The operators by nature are about paper dolls compared to the rest of the game. Even the cheap low grade targets on the plains can kill you with almost no real effort and they're just starter grade targets when you get out the gate. Half the problem with the trees is that most of them don't really work well with the other trees anyway. They're more based in their single use more so than anything. So taking the one things that actually work for everyone even the slightest bit and then locking them behind the worst grind just because they don't.... what?, want us maxing everything out of the gate?.... I'm honestly a bit lost on the logic with this push in the first place.

In theory, the waybound nodes should have been nodes that were incredibly valuable, but not essential to game play. In another thread like this I had to give the comparison and I'll give it again. This is like being forced to play through the entire star chart with out being allowed to mod your frame at all. Maybe even arguably your weapon too. Now it's your job to go play through the entire star chart and ONLY then can you mod your frame.

[Bronjun]

Wow DE is requiring Sword Art Online level of dedication. 

[Fallen_Echo]

Either give back the old focus costs or increase the lens affinity exchange to 10, 15 and 25%.

This grind is too much.

[AvatarX76]

4 hours ago, KittyDarkling said:

I'm not entirely sure where the issue is here. I don't mind knowing that it'll be a year until I'm apparently a god of the void. And the grind for focus is pretty quick. I'm not even the kind of person who grinds all that hard and I knock out all 250k in less than an hour, I know a few who do it in 20m. I support you guys voicing your opinions, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in as well. So respectfully I disagree!

And apparently it's gamers like you that DE designed the Focus 2.0 grind for! So you spend an hr every day stealth farming or doing bere/hydron with a specialised frame and build. Chances are you already had a hefty head start in focus 1.0 so the additional grind required for 2.0 is not off-putting.

When i was relatively new to warframe i put my first lens on Trinity, not knowing how pathetic non-kill frames are at gathering focus. It was months until i thought about focus farming and how to do it efficiently, because my trin just wasn't getting anywhere through normal (enjoyable) game play. So i slapped a few greater lenses on saryn and mesa, maxed out a couple of nodes in naramon and zenurik and pretty much forgot about the rest of the focus system. With focus 2.0, all those new and returning players DE worked so hard to pull in with the release of PoE (as well as regulars like myself) will look at focus and wonder why bother, it's so out of reach with no meaningful and rewarding progression that it's simply not worth the grind, when it means not playing the game the way they find enjoyable in the limited time they have every day.

If focus 2.0 is not meant to have some significant impact outisde of a few boss fights, then it all can mostly be ignored altogether (like focus 1.0). But if DE intends focus 2.0 to be a a true end-game system that will play a key supporting role in future content/encounters, then as it currently stands, a lot of casual players (the majority) will just give up in frustration.

So what does DE really want Focus 2.0 to be? A relevant, rewarding and relatively obtainable end-game system that enables all players to tackle unique end-game content, or a distraction that the majority of players will mostly ignore that will eventually hinder DE's future boss mechanics as it'll be unreasonable to expect the typical player to care about Focus at all?

Edited October 25, 2017 by AvatarX76

[GinKenshin]

Yes, but the problem still lies in the hardcore farming out there who can and will do like 6 consecutive hours of focus farming a day....they’ll probably get everything in a month or two 

 

don’t remove the cap, increase it to a reasonable amount...500/750k, even 1mil 

[Coalfax]

In all this discussion, has DE even responded at all to this grind?  Not in this thread, but anyplace else?  The silence is deafening.

[Cortanis]

42 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

Yes, but the problem still lies in the hardcore farming out there who can and will do like 6 consecutive hours of focus farming a day....they’ll probably get everything in a month or two 

So? That's their reward. That was literally the point of the dev streams where they ran maxed out versions of the dev builds was to show the kind of play that was allowed and what you could do. That's literally the reward for grinding like that. If they want to do that, what's the problem? They burn out doing it, that's their fault and it wasn't required in the first place.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Cortanis

[GinKenshin]

2 hours ago, Cortanis said:

So? That's their reward. That was literally the point of the dev streams where they ran maxed out versions of the dev builds was to show the kind of play that was allowed and what you could do. That's literally the reward for grinding like that. If they want to do that, what's the problem? They burn out doing it, that's their fault and it wasn't required in the first place.

clearly DE doesnt see it like that, or do u think viver was actually ok? 

there's grinding and there's exploiting and cheesing 

[Marvelous_A]

140 days is more than enough time for a no-lifer new player to join the game, max out every thing else, and leaving this game coz burnt out after all the grinding. The new focus grinding is absurd and I'll just ignore the whole feature like I did with 1.0 after I get all useful passives if they're not making any change.