So now that Focus needs 9000 trillion points and full time job amount of effort...

[Volinus7]

On 29 ตุลาคม 2560 at 11:07 PM, DatDarkOne said:

It's not a matter of justifying it, but more one of being realistic.  Players grind in MMO that they have paid for.  Then do it again in games like Destiny and Overwatch.  All games that have an upfront cost before you even start grinding.

Now look at Warframe.  A free to play game that has grinding just like all other free to play games.  Yet grinding in this free to play game is bad, while games like Destiny and WoW have a free pass?  This is what I mean by being realistic.  And don't even say this grind is bad when the Korean MMOs have the crown for that.

edit:  I truly believe some are just making a bigger deal out of this than there really is.

The clever thing about Warframe is the carefully hidden upfront cost in the form of monetized slot costs.

If 100% of players decide to not buy any plats, they can only go as far as their initial free plats and slots can support, they cannot pour free plats into one person to let him/her progress further because free plats aren't tradeable. Warframe doesn't look at players as an individual, it looks at players as a collective. Who pays doesn't matter as long as slot sales hit the mark.

Warframe is a logic trap, it's a game about getting things, "you don't have to get everything" mentality means you don't have to play Warframe itself, effectively push people into drudgery.

[Omnimorph]

On 10/27/2017 at 11:40 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Inb4 the inevitable "I don't know why you guys are complaining, it gives you something to work towards" post.

But that's true.  There have to be some long-term goals in the game, nearly everything else is achievable very easily.  

[Doc-Orange]

On 29.10.2017 at 8:43 PM, Vlada91 said:

Because it is not interesting for ordinary mortals to play 10 years to get something in the game that is not so important and because of that its not fun 2 playe....Last time I checked game need 2 be fun and not frustrated...

I don't understand this. If you don't like it - don't do it. Nobody plays 100% of a games content. So its your choice not to play this part of the content because its not fun for you. You will not have serious consequences and you can enjoy all the other parts of Warframe.

For me personally it's ok. I wont have all focus points in my lifetime but I have all the importend ones (personal choice) and I didn't farm for it. I get all the focus points "for free" because I love the Eidolon hunt. Each Brilliant Eidolon Core gives you 25.000 focus points. In a good group of Randoms you'll get 6 per night cycle - 3 is normal. So you have  75.000 to 150.000 focus points per night. Warframe is along term investement for me. If you would do this for one year mostly regulary - lets say 45 weeks - you have 3.337.500 to 6.750.000 points. So after a year you have most of the relevant focus points. I don't want and need to level all points.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Doc-Orange

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I guess DE always wanted focus to be a long term investment. Having such high requirements may be a way they found to make them achievable only after a certain time.

Even considering this, achieving cap everyday is not all that difficult if you really want to do it. 

My biggest problem is that some focus powers are still bad. i cant see a reason to make a long term investment of my time to get some bad powers unlocked. It doesnt make sense.

Most people will still just unlock the same old ones and just forget about it. 

[VoidMask]

2 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

I guess DE always wanted focus to be a long term investment. Having such high requirements may be a way they found to make them achievable only after a certain time.

Even considering this, achieving cap everyday is not all that difficult if you really want to do it. 

My biggest problem is that some focus powers are still bad. i cant see a reason to make a long term investment of my time to get some bad powers unlocked. It doesnt make sense.

Most people will still just unlock the same old ones and just forget about it. 

years...it'll take years to unlock a school with passive play. That's terrible.

 

I do get the cap everyday, it's boring and restrictive and now more than ever I feel burned out and do not enjoy playing.

[MJ12]

On 10/29/2017 at 6:07 AM, DatDarkOne said:

It's not a matter of justifying it, but more one of being realistic.  Players grind in MMO that they have paid for.  Then do it again in games like Destiny and Overwatch.  All games that have an upfront cost before you even start grinding.

Now look at Warframe.  A free to play game that has grinding just like all other free to play games.  Yet grinding in this free to play game is bad, while games like Destiny and WoW have a free pass?  This is what I mean by being realistic.  And don't even say this grind is bad when the Korean MMOs have the crown for that.

edit:  I truly believe some are just making a bigger deal out of this than there really is.

The focus farm in Warframe is almost as bad as Korean MMO/exploitative mobile F2P game farming though.

I don't think anyone minds grind. They just don't want to have to do sleep-stealthkill farming to get their focus filled up in a timely fashion. As people already noted, even if you were straight up given your entire focus cap, for free, every day, you would need to play for over a year and a half to unlock it all, assuming that DE doesn't add additional trees to expand focus/additional ways to spend focus. Literally nobody in this thread is asking for the ability to max out their operators in a week.

They're just asking that maybe for a regular but not hardcore player, they should be able to get to the endgoal in like, a year and a half? Rather than that being possible only for super-dedicated players.

[JuicyPop]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:57 AM, KiteoHatto said:

How geared are you and are you actually trying to farm focus or just doing w/e is fun for you ?

Im 27, I have a 8-5 full time job, which leaves me with like 3-4 hours of playtime in the evening maximum.

If you are going there with "real life responsibilities woe is me i have no time to nolife" then affinity boosters are for you.

I've been formaing weapons and kavats in the past 2 days on hydron, running with greater lenses and you get like 30k focus in 10-15 waves EASY. Each one of those yellow focus buff(last 44s or so) you pick up can give you around 3-6k focus, depending how active you are during the wave and if you picked the buff at the start of spawning or at the end.

 

Don't need to be a tryhard equinox with maiming strike to get anywhere.

So you've just been farming and farming and farming... ^{with a booster}

I guess if that's your thing. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by JuicyPop

[TheBrsrkr]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:29 AM, KiteoHatto said:

Yes this seems like 9 years.

9 years on Mercury, maybe. 

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

. As people already noted, even the  you were straight up given your entire focus cap, for free, every day, you would need to play for over a year and a half to unlock it all, assuming that DE doesn't add additional trees to expand focus/additional ways to spend focus. 

WHY

DO 

YOU

NEED

IT

ALL? 

[MJ12]

59 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

WHY

DO 

YOU

NEED

IT

ALL? 

Nobody strictly 'needs' anything besides oxygen, food, water, and shelter.

So

WHY

DO

YOU

EVEN

CARE?

[TheBrsrkr]

16 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Nobody strictly 'needs' anything besides oxygen, food, water, and shelter.

So

WHY

DO

YOU

EVEN

CARE?

This is the absolute poorest excuse you could have given. 

 

It's 5 trees, each with their own unique set of skills. You could only really have 1 tree before, and if you had that one tree before you could get everything that tree has to offer from day one. All they did was add ACCESS to all the trees, and you're mad because it takes a year to do what  takes you about  3 months 6 times? It's nothing! You are complaining about bloody nothing right now. You don't NEED to have all the nodes in 6 trees, you don't even need to man out ONE tree to get good stuff in the focus system, but you're complaining that doing ALL THE TREES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO BE SEPERATE takes a really long time? What exactly did you expect to happen? Are they just supposed to design each tree to take a fifth of the time it does now? Did you expect it to be another background system you could ruin by efficiency farming? What is it that you people want? 

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The focus farm in Warframe is almost as bad as Korean MMO/exploitative mobile F2P game farming though.

Then you never played Lineage 2 and the like.

3 hours ago, MJ12 said:

They're just asking that maybe for a regular but not hardcore player, they should be able to get to the endgoal in like, a year and a half? Rather than that being possible only for super-dedicated players.

Thing is only the "super-dedicated" players are the ones who feel they would even need to unlock every part of each focus school.  I don't plan to do that.  I'll only get the nodes and parts that I want and nothing more.    

[MJ12]

18 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

This is the absolute poorest excuse you could have given. 

 

It's 5 trees, each with their own unique set of skills. You could only really have 1 tree before, and if you had that one tree before you could get everything that tree has to offer from day one. All they did was add ACCESS to all the trees, and you're mad because it takes a year to do what  takes you about  3 months 6 times? It's nothing! You are complaining about bloody nothing right now. You don't NEED to have all the nodes in 6 trees, you don't even need to man out ONE tree to get good stuff in the focus system, but you're complaining that doing ALL THE TREES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO BE SEPERATE takes a really long time? What exactly did you expect to happen? Are they just supposed to design each tree to take a fifth of the time it does now? Did you expect it to be another background system you could ruin by efficiency farming? What is it that you people want? 

"Excuse?" You're the one who thinks "WHY DO YOU NEED IT ALL" is a relevant, valid question when the entire point of Warframe is a Skinner Box-i.e. the entire point of the game is that the devs want you to "NEED IT ALL." Because that means you keep playing to get more stuff, which makes them more money. I'm sorry that I'm aware that I'm playing Warframe because I want to unlock stuff and watch my numbers get bigger, but it's true. So when you have a system which aggressively mocks my attempts to make my numbers bigger, by forcing either exploitative, unfun methods of grinding it up or excessive, inordinate amounts of time, it makes me less interested in the game. That's what I'm complaining about. No, I don't "need" to max out the focus trees. But I'd like to play around with them, and the only way I can do that, under the system you're defending, is by ruining the fun I'm having with the game in other ways.

The rest of your arguments are red herrings. The five trees exist as separate options, yes. Which you can and are presumably intended to be able to switch around at will, given that unlocking focus trees is very cheap compared to maxing them out. They existed as options you could switch between from day one.

"You could only really have one tree before" is irrelevant, and also a lie. It costs relatively little focus, especially compared to leveling up nodes past 1, to unlock a tree. Lenses were granted randomly for all trees. It's clear given this loot design that the intention was not that you would only ever use one tree ever. In fact, given how easy it was for me to switch from my original choice (Madurai) to Zenurik for that energy regen, it's pretty clear that if DE expected that you would choose one tree and stick with it forever, they did a really bad job of indicating it.

And you know what I'm complaining about? I'm complaining about the fact that focus takes forever to progress in. Not unlock. Progress in. It takes forever to unlock single upgrades. It takes forever to make any tangible progress. It's not as if the reason focus trees take so long to max out is because they have a quintillion different upgrades, all of which might at least sound interesting, which you can play around in and the game encourages you to dabble in.

What I want is for focus to be accumulated in a fashion which doesn't require dedicated, anti-fun grinding, focus node upgrades to be available on a reliable basis every so often, and the focus system to not be an incredibly intimidating, unfun slog because of how it requires anti-fun grinding mechanisms and gives you upgrades very rarely if you're just playing the game normally. Like, is that such a excessive demand? That if you're a casual player, you can explore the focus tree without having to throw every spare focus point you earn into Zenurik's energy globe passive because you can only expect to max out one or two things?

That's all I want. I don't mind if it takes focus years to max, just like Mastery, if you're making significant, interesting progress along the way every so often, just by playing the game for an hour or two every day.

[Guest]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:29 AM, KiteoHatto said:

Yes this seems like 9 years.

You left out the 140 days worth of way capacity needed to actually use all the waybounds in any school.

[Tuccos]

Focus 2.0 is just terrible .... 

[(PSN)psycofang]

>9000 trillion

 

Dunno why that cracks me up.

[yles9056]

2 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

>9000 trillion

 

Dunno why that cracks me up.

It's over 9000 trillion!

[JAGGEDCAN9NE]

On 11/2/2017 at 12:15 AM, MJ12 said:

"Excuse?" You're the one who thinks "WHY DO YOU NEED IT ALL" is a relevant, valid question when the entire point of Warframe is a Skinner Box-i.e. the entire point of the game is that the devs want you to "NEED IT ALL." Because that means you keep playing to get more stuff, which makes them more money. I'm sorry that I'm aware that I'm playing Warframe because I want to unlock stuff and watch my numbers get bigger, but it's true. So when you have a system which aggressively mocks my attempts to make my numbers bigger, by forcing either exploitative, unfun methods of grinding it up or excessive, inordinate amounts of time, it makes me less interested in the game. That's what I'm complaining about. No, I don't "need" to max out the focus trees. But I'd like to play around with them, and the only way I can do that, under the system you're defending, is by ruining the fun I'm having with the game in other ways.

The rest of your arguments are red herrings. The five trees exist as separate options, yes. Which you can and are presumably intended to be able to switch around at will, given that unlocking focus trees is very cheap compared to maxing them out. They existed as options you could switch between from day one.

"You could only really have one tree before" is irrelevant, and also a lie. It costs relatively little focus, especially compared to leveling up nodes past 1, to unlock a tree. Lenses were granted randomly for all trees. It's clear given this loot design that the intention was not that you would only ever use one tree ever. In fact, given how easy it was for me to switch from my original choice (Madurai) to Zenurik for that energy regen, it's pretty clear that if DE expected that you would choose one tree and stick with it forever, they did a really bad job of indicating it.

And you know what I'm complaining about? I'm complaining about the fact that focus takes forever to progress in. Not unlock. Progress in. It takes forever to unlock single upgrades. It takes forever to make any tangible progress. It's not as if the reason focus trees take so long to max out is because they have a quintillion different upgrades, all of which might at least sound interesting, which you can play around in and the game encourages you to dabble in.

What I want is for focus to be accumulated in a fashion which doesn't require dedicated, anti-fun grinding, focus node upgrades to be available on a reliable basis every so often, and the focus system to not be an incredibly intimidating, unfun slog because of how it requires anti-fun grinding mechanisms and gives you upgrades very rarely if you're just playing the game normally. Like, is that such a excessive demand? That if you're a casual player, you can explore the focus tree without having to throw every spare focus point you earn into Zenurik's energy globe passive because you can only expect to max out one or two things?

That's all I want. I don't mind if it takes focus years to max, just like Mastery, if you're making significant, interesting progress along the way every so often, just by playing the game for an hour or two every day.

^  This guy gets it. Don't really mind a grind if it feels like what I am doing is somehow contributing, in a large way, to getting stuff done.

If it were 6 months to completely max all trees? I could somewhat live with that, I would rather see around 3 to do so instead, but merely my own suggestion.

However...

 

A year and a half for all of them!?!?!? Your out of your damn mind.

Only a handful of nodes on each tree, most of which barely serve a purpose to most players. Given the issues about gaining the necessary focus to upgrade them, won't have to worry about anyone blowing through the content, you will be lucky enough to have anyone even care to glance in its general direction once the newness wears off.

 

[akira_him]

Remember, if you can hit the focus daily limit, you are no playing the game normally

[TheBrsrkr]

On 11/2/2017 at 12:15 AM, MJ12 said:

"Excuse?" You're the one who thinks "WHY DO YOU NEED IT ALL" is a relevant, valid question when the entire point of Warframe is a Skinner Box-i.e. the entire point of the game is that the devs want you to "NEED IT ALL." Because that means you keep playing to get more stuff, which makes them more money. I'm sorry that I'm aware that I'm playing Warframe because I want to unlock stuff and watch my numbers get bigger, but it's true. So when you have a system which aggressively mocks my attempts to make my numbers bigger, by forcing either exploitative, unfun methods of grinding it up or excessive, inordinate amounts of time, it makes me less interested in the game. That's what I'm complaining about. No, I don't "need" to max out the focus trees. But I'd like to play around with them, and the only way I can do that, under the system you're defending, is by ruining the fun I'm having with the game in other ways.

And exactly whose fault is that? Everyone has a problem with the huge numbers. I have a problem with them too, but there is simply NO OTHER OPTION FOR DE, and it's the players that made it that way through their own actions. You want to sit in Akkad or Hieracon or Bere or wherever for an hour and grind XP with little to no effort or gameplay? You know, the thing that I and DE have said is bad for the game and something they don't want you to be doing? The thing they gave you an option to move away from with stealth affinity multipliers and MR applying to weapon rankings so you don't have to suffer through them with no mods and can actually play with them? Well now you HAVE TO to progress, but since you were doing it anyway, why do you mind? DE doesn't force you to use exploitative measures, you force DE to make those exploitative measures the norm. 

 

Im really tired of people saying "we don't want to sit in one map and grind for hours" and then when the system changes to suit, they SIT IN ONE MAP AND GRIND FOR HOURS. This was a long time coming. You're saying the words but you don't understand the meaning behind them. Yes, DE wants you to get it all. Obviously. They're selling something you're buying. But they don't want you to get  it all in 3 weeks and then never touch it again while complaining there's no endgame, as has happened many, many, many times before. Which is exactly what would happen if there was no focus cap. Every time DE creates new content, it's burned through within the month by veterans if it can be cheesed in some form. Every time DE implements something to slow this down, like Nitain, huge amounts of Cryotic, Mutagen or even just massive walls of RNG, we whine and complain. What did you think would happen?  What do you expect will happen? 

 

Now I want to talk about how the Focus system and even the operator is a massive grind with not enough benefits (especially for Unairu) and weird decisions that could be but I can't discuss that with people screaming about having to do the thing they were doing all the time and were  to do anyway to meet their focus caps. All the threads around here just say lower the cost  without thinking about why the cost was so bloody high in the first place and how to offset that reason with another mechanic. 

On 11/2/2017 at 12:15 AM, MJ12 said:

.

"You could only really have one tree before" is irrelevant, and also a lie. It costs relatively little focus, especially compared to leveling up nodes past 1, to unlock a tree. Lenses were granted randomly for all trees. It's clear given this loot design that the intention was not that you would only ever use one tree ever. In fact, given how easy it was for me to switch from my original choice (Madurai) to Zenurik for that energy regen, it's pretty clear that if DE expected that you would choose one tree and stick with it forever, they did a really bad job of indicating it.

 

Lenses are specific to the weapon of frame of choice. You could not and still can't freely switch between lenses on your gear. Yes, you can access all other trees if you have 5 frames and a bunch of other weapons to put them on, but it was more of a hassle than it was really worth. In reality, as you know, people took to their 1 main tree with the thing they actually wanted and then grinded the other trees when they had what they wanted. Meaning, of course, that one tree was more  developed than the others at all times, hence you only REALLY having one tree. The new system works more passively on all systems and gas links between the teees so you could get  different bonuses from different trees at the same time. Hence more access. 

 

On 11/2/2017 at 12:15 AM, MJ12 said:

 

And you know what I'm complaining about? I'm complaining about the fact that focus takes forever to progress in. Not unlock. Progress in. 

What I want is for focus to be accumulated in a fashion which doesn't require dedicated, anti-fun grinding, focus node upgrades to be available on a reliable basis every so often, and the focus system to not be an incredibly intimidating, unfun slog because of how it requires anti-fun grinding mechanisms and gives you upgrades very rarely if you're just playing the game normally. 

Probably shouldn't have spend all your time doing  anti fun grinding then. Not you specifically, mind. The playerbase.