Not univac and shield gates

[Neightrix]

I'm not sure whether I should feel a bit insulted, but I do. 3m is practically the normal pickup range, resources just move a bit towards the player a bit. While this does help with the plains a very small amount and that is good, it isn't a compromise or and answer towards the request for univac. This is a "no" to universal vacuum.

If shield gates dont hurt the game, why are they not in? They do a thing to prevent 1 shots. It isn't supposed to make a dramatic difference. The argument against this utterly baffles me. I don't understand. I'm not hearing a reaon to not add them.

[SnuggleBuckets]

What's interesting about that whole conversation during the stream was the hinting at infighting, conflict from other devs described as "hardcore Warframe players", who have been against them, and the testing with shieldgating was also a point of tension in development.

[Katinka]

Well, that's a glass half empty outlook...

On the other hand, it's the first step towards having a decent universal vacuum.  The code is in place, we technically have it and all that remains is to adjust the value until we find somethign people are happy with that isn't too high make the concept of dropped loot entirely redundant. 
Shield gating isn't the goal, it was a suggested means to an end which was reducing the feeling of being powerless against one shot kills.  If devs have tried it and say it doesn't achieve that goal then we don't need it and they should be looking at other avenues.  The important thing is that they remember the goal, easing up on surprise deaths and not specifically by implementing shield gating.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Katinka

[Neightrix]

24 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Well, that's a glass half empty outlook...

On the other hand, it's the first step towards having a decent universal vacuum.  The code is in place, we technically have it and all that remains is to adjust the value until we find somethign people are happy with that isn't too high make the concept of dropped loot entirely redundant. 
Shield gating isn't the goal, it was a suggested means to an end which was reducing the feeling of being powerless against one shot kills.  If devs have tried it and say it doesn't achieve that goal then we don't need it and they should be looking at other avenues.  The important thing is that they remember the goal, easing up on surprise deaths and not specifically by implementing shield gating.

Considering the normal pickup range was 3m before it became a vacuum, I don't see how it's any step at all. Why should pickup up loot have any emphasis when it could be fighting unique and challenging enemies, and when 95% of players use Vacuum anyway? This has been dicusssed into the ground, and if they want to say "no" that's fine, but acting like 3m is something, and acting like there was any reason for anyone to use kavat/kurbrows when you're trying to collect all the new recourses is insulting.

Again, what is argument against shield gates? They, and health gates, make a difference in numous other games (Borderlands, Mass Effect, etc) and let dangerous enemies be a threat without outright killing players. They are effective at doing what they do. What other method is there other than letting players take one hit? Please do elaborate, because it seems like you're playing the devil's advocate. Bombalists effectively have a shield gate that prevents them befom being 1 shotted, sometimes a health gate also, and it prevents them from being 1 shot fodder. The concept obviously works.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Neightrix

[Cubewano]

23 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Well, that's a glass half empty outlook...

On the other hand, it's the first step towards having a decent universal vacuum.  The code is in place, we technically have it and all that remains is to adjust the value until we find somethign people are happy with that isn't too high make the concept of dropped loot entirely redundant. 
Shield gating isn't the goal, it was a suggested means to an end which was reducing the feeling of being powerless against one shot kills.  If devs have tried it and say it doesn't achieve that goal then we don't need it and they should be looking at other avenues.  The important thing is that they remember the goal, easing up on surprise deaths and not specifically by implementing shield gating.

But how many more steps are there going to be. We've been fighting this for years, and it's getting old at this point how frequently de turns around and says no for what just feels like the sake of it. The fact they turned around and tried to use nobody noticing the vacuum change as discrediting our argument (instead of as just showing such a little pick up doesn't really impact the problem) shows how little they respect our stance. 

[SyberSmoke]

32 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

Considering the normal pickup range was 3m before it became a vacuum, I don't see how it's any step at all. Why should pickup up loot have any emphasis when it could be fighting unique and challenging enemies, and when 95% of players use Vacuum anyway? This has been dicusssed into the ground, and if they want to say "no" that's fine, but acting like 3m is something, and acting like there was any reason for anyone to use kavat/kurbrows when you're trying to collect all the new recourses is insulting.

Again, what is argument against shield gates? They, and health gates, make a difference in numous other games (Borderlands, Mass Effect, etc) and let dangerous enemies be a threat without outright killing players. They are effective at doing what they do. What other method is there other than letting players take one hit? Please do elaborate, because it seems like you're playing the devil's advocate. Bombalists effectively have a shield gate that prevents them befom being 1 shotted, sometimes a health gate also, and it prevents them from being 1 shot fodder. The concept obviously works.

Univac: The point is to get people to use other things than carrier.  The major downside right now to Kavats and Kubrows is that the player previously needed to run over the drops.  Carrier is also another hot topic as it is still very useful because of ammo box.  So Univac + ammobox makes carrier the go to sentinel.  So the reason people want Univac is so we have the convenience to collect the loot with out being tied to a sentinel and so we can use our companions with out having to run over all the loot.  This is a step in the right direction as missing rare things like mutagen samples because w did not run on them is annoying.

As for Shield Gates...thing is unlike those games the enemies in this games are very very accurate.  Those games have an amount of built in spread that if your not point blank, you can wander some and not take hits.  Their shields and health pools also scale with the level of the character and the enemies also scale.  So you are always pretty tanky and have a fair amount of health and shields for the enemies you are facing.  Warframe does not do this, Our health pool and shield pool does not scale when we say fight sortie level enemies.  This plus their accuracy means even if there were gating, sure that 1200 damage shot may be gated by a 300 damage shield.  But their follow up shot a split second after nails your health any way.  So...yeah I can see why it does not do anything.  Versus a sniper...sure.  Versus a heavy gunner...hahahahaha....still mince meat.  So they are looking at other options.

[Vortiene]

3 hours ago, SyberSmoke said:

-snip-

 

Then why not add a short invulnerability period when shields break to give the player the oppurtunity to react? Even say 400ms of invulnerability would allow you to swap to more defensive movement after you realize your shields have been broken, and that'll make the enemies much less accurate + you can get into cover/use a defensive ability

Edited November 4, 2017 by Anonymous10081

[SyberSmoke]

1 minute ago, Anonymous10081 said:

Then why not add a short invulnerability period when shields break to give the player the oppurtunity to react? Even say 400ms of invulnerability would allow you to swap to more defensive movement after you realize your shields have been broken, and that'll make the enemies much less accurate + you can get into cover/use a defensive ability

Because that is not a fix, it is just a patch on a problem.  The fix is harder and takes more time.  Enemies that are less accurate, Enemies that miss on purpose (Like the given example where a sniper in other games will miss so the player can react to the first shot), Things that are not patch but genuine fixes to the issues that power creep have created.  I mean really...the main problem is that warframes do not keep up with enemies when it comes to health.  If they did it would be to easy.  But as it is now...there is a problem.

I mean...I do not think any one is cool that a Grenier trooper can be laser accurate using a Grakata at 300m.  That is just not cool. But it is a complex problem that needs a complex fix.  There is no silver bullet to this one.

[Vortiene]

1 hour ago, SyberSmoke said:

Because that is not a fix, it is just a patch on a problem.  The fix is harder and takes more time.  Enemies that are less accurate, Enemies that miss on purpose (Like the given example where a sniper in other games will miss so the player can react to the first shot), Things that are not patch but genuine fixes to the issues that power creep have created.  I mean really...the main problem is that warframes do not keep up with enemies when it comes to health.  If they did it would be to easy.  But as it is now...there is a problem.

I mean...I do not think any one is cool that a Grenier trooper can be laser accurate using a Grakata at 300m.  That is just not cool. But it is a complex problem that needs a complex fix.  There is no silver bullet to this one.

I'm not implying that shield gates would solve all problems, but it would make shields more viable than they are at current. As they are shields are completely inferior to health and that needs to be addressed, this could make them a whole lot more useful. Can't see a reason not to implement shield gates honestly, it would be a step in the right direction. 

[SyberSmoke]

1 minute ago, Anonymous10081 said:

I'm not implying that shield gates would solve all problems, but it would make shields more viable than they are at current. As they are shields are completely inferior to health and that needs to be addressed, this could make them a whole lot more useful. Can't see a reason not to implement shield gates honestly, it would be a step in the right direction. 

There is not really a good or bad reason to do it.  I mean...yes, it would stop damage that blows through the shield from damaging the player.  But at the same time it does not stop the second round at all.  And making an immunity period is also not a solution.

I would could the below more as solutions:

1. Shields have their own resistances we can spec for.
2. Shields are made larger to handle more damage.
3. Enemies are not laser accurate at range.
4. Better notification that there is an enemy taking aim at you from behind.
5. A mod that allows us to steal shields from kills much like life from kills.

And that is just off the top of my head.  I mean just shield resistances (armor) and num 5 would be a start.  But there is also far more that needs to be done for this.  People are looking for a silver bullet and think that shield gating is that glorious Red Crit to the problem.  But it is not...and the developers have said as much today.

I mean really...you have to consider a lot.  Even just that the human brain has a delay of .3-.5 seconds to process information.  You shields are gone, you hear a sound, you process that sound, you settle on an action .4 seconds later.  But then your dead because of the RoF of the enemy you do not see.  Shield gating will not help for that .4 seconds.  And I am not a fan of magic immunity after the shield fails also...who would be.  So other fixes are needed.

[DeltaPangaea]

The thing about shieldgating is

It's not necessarily helpful from a mechanical perspective.

But it WILL be helpful from a game-feel perspective. Even if you'll die immediately after, that brief moment of leeway will, if not give you time to save yourself, at least lessen the feeling of 'what the F*** hit me'.

It's about transition from different states of mind. There's the 'I feel secure' state, when you've got a decent amount of shields. The 'fight or flight' when your shields break, and then the displeasure when you die. Going straight from security to dead SUCKS. Going to security to fight/flight to dead sucks a LOT LESS.

[Neightrix]

17 hours ago, Anonymous10081 said:

Then why not add a short invulnerability period when shields break to give the player the oppurtunity to react? Even say 400ms of invulnerability would allow you to swap to more defensive movement after you realize your shields have been broken, and that'll make the enemies much less accurate + you can get into cover/use a defensive ability

This is also a good idea and is used in other games - shield and/or health gates, each with their own invulernability period (often less than a second) and refresh timer (5 seconds?) so that abilities which replenish health and/or shields can't abuse the gates and invulneravility frames. If there is a better way to fix the scaling of enemy damage, I wouldn't have a problem with it - but gates also let specific dangerous enemies remain a very big threat without outright downing the player, such as the Juggernaut which easily 1 shots most frames at sortie level with a poorly telegraphed needle attack.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Neightrix

[zornyan]

17 hours ago, SyberSmoke said:

Because that is not a fix, it is just a patch on a problem.  The fix is harder and takes more time.  Enemies that are less accurate, Enemies that miss on purpose (Like the given example where a sniper in other games will miss so the player can react to the first shot), Things that are not patch but genuine fixes to the issues that power creep have created.  I mean really...the main problem is that warframes do not keep up with enemies when it comes to health.  If they did it would be to easy.  But as it is now...there is a problem.

I mean...I do not think any one is cool that a Grenier trooper can be laser accurate using a Grakata at 300m.  That is just not cool. But it is a complex problem that needs a complex fix.  There is no silver bullet to this one.

Shield gating probably wouldn’t work because we’re under constant fire, at high levels this will oneshot you.

 

any Grineer bar bombards, will be firing so many shots at you shield gating will do nothing, because the next bullet will kill you anyway, especially when there’s some 30/40/50 trying to shoot you at once.

 

the bigger issue is enemy scaling, once enemies get past 70/80 damage because a bit crazy, 100/120 it becomes impossible for several frames, 150+ anything is a one shot if not a tank.

 

i mean, doing a kuva flood for example, the guardians can one shot most frames out of the blue, even a semi tanky frame like excal with EB up can get one shot with little to no warning.

 

i think overall the numbers/scaling need a pass, and perhaps that would alleviate some of the issue?

[SyberSmoke]

Scaling to could be altered.  But I think the scaling is the way it is due to power creep.  I personally am a fan of offering a way to make shields resistant to damage much like health.  Personal preference, but being able to take more damage with available shields with out needing to jack those shields into the tens of thousands would be nice.  A resistance or armor rating for them would be nice.

[BlackCoMerc]

22 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

What's interesting about that whole conversation during the stream was the hinting at infighting, conflict from other devs described as "hardcore Warframe players", who have been against them, and the testing with shieldgating was also a point of tension in development.

I think players are against gating for the same reason I am: it's a (bad) bandaid. But if allowed, DE will slap it on, call it done and keep piling on to the broken mess of a foundation that is Warframe.

The game needs a stat crushing balance pass. For enemies. For weapons. For WARFRAMES.

If enemies only LIVE for 0.1 seconds, then they need to be able to threaten you in only 0.1 seconds. Hence, one shots.

Now, DE does make the gross mistake of upscaling ALL enemies, which is harmful to balance and unnecessary. Trash Move are OK. At the same time, if even bigger enemies go down in seconds, this means they only have seconds to threaten you.

Hence, the broken mess we have.

The game needs a rebalance. And now, while lots of new folks are inbound and not yet gods in the game.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

23 hours ago, Neightrix said:

I'm not sure whether I should feel a bit insulted,

I most certainly feel insulted. People have been asking for a proper UV for years and there's absolutely no single point against having it in the game TOMORROW. And it's really easy to do especially considering that it's already in the game.

And shield-gating could have finally solved the dumb one-shotting self-damage problem that was also in the game for years. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[zornyan]

15 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I most certainly feel insulted. People have been asking for a proper UV for years and there's absolutely no single point against having it in the game TOMORROW. And it's really easy to do especially considering that it's already in the game.

And shield-gating could have finally solved the dumb one-shotting self-damage problem that was also in the game for years. 

They tested shield gating and it didn’t prevent the issues players have complained about.

 

its also a bad band aid fix, read the above replies why