Warframe and Loot Boxes (Not a rant.)

[grigorije]

In light of the recent fiasco regarding questionable corporate practices within the gaming industry, I'd like to briefly discuss the monetary structure that Warframe is built upon. I won't go over the topic of Electronic Farts, as I trust that YouTube's algorithm made sure to inform you all well.

Warframe is built upon a drop table system, which is nearly as old as gaming itself. This system, unavoidably, involves a certain amount of chance. That being said, this does not mean that Warframe posesses loot boxes. Indeed, we do have Relics, but at the very least it is known what can be acquired with each type of Relic, and the item list is fairly short. And, above all, Warframe does not hinder one's gameplay and progression via these Relics in any way - it does not impose any expenditures, there are no strings attached, and they are part of the actual gameplay. Loot crates incorporated by AAA titles, on the other hand, force you to spend more time in front of a "slot machine" than playing the actual game. If you wish, you may accelerate your progression, but it is by no means required of you.

If anything, Riven mods can be said to resemble loot boxes as they do represent a form of gambling, but they do not require you to pay real-world currency, as the only available option, and I am sure that DE will eventually review the Riven mod system.

In conclusion, DE would never take throw away all their effort, and take the game down the path that Economic Arts trode.

Besides, Relics are spheres - loot spheres are obviously superior to loot boxes.

Spoiler

Bucket Prime is the true loot crate.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by grigorije

[MillbrookWest]

If anyone hasn't seen skillup's video on his other channel:

The legislation appears to recognise that paying for things in game =/= gambling, but paying for a chance at something, does.

Warframe does have items in the market that could fall into this legal definition since they do sell "packs" which randomise the reward, however, like the revive system of old, this is probably just left over from an age when this was more necessary to the survival of the game. I would not be surprised if even DE staff have forgotten it exists _{(who even buys those anyways?)} :/

However, there doesn't appear to be anything in warframe vital to the core gameplay loop that requires you to put down money on chance.

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

The closest thing Warframe has to lootboxes isn't Riven mods, it's the Mod Card packs.

If you mean Re-rolling Riven mods, then I guess it's kinda like a loot box? Except you already have the "lootbox" and are paying in-game "currency" to change it's "contents".

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)AyersyBears

[Gunslinger]

Here:

 

[Nez-Kal]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

The closest thing Warframe has to lootboxes isn't Riven mods, it's the Mod Card packs.

If you mean Re-rolling Riven mods, then I guess it's kinda like a loot box? Except you already have the "lootbox" and are paying in-game "currency" to change it's "contents".

I think DE already realized the potential for a "Loot Box" that Rivens might be called, which is WHY there is no way to Pay for or Trade for Kuva. You can only grind it. If you could pay for it THEN the whole thing would look really, Really bad. Paying for the stuff so you can do a Riven Roll of complete chance? What are we, EA?

[Aeon94]

Remove Relic Packs and Dragon Mod Packs from Market and everything will be fine. :D

Rivens on other hand don't require you to pay money or rerolling doesnt cost real life currencies ( kuva can't be bought ) , so Riven system doesn't count as gambling.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Aeon94

[SnuggleBuckets]

2 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

Remove Relic Packs and Dragon Mod Packs from Market and everything will be fine. :D

Rivens on other hand don't require you to pay money or rerolling doesnt cost real life currencies ( kuva can't be bought ) , so they don't count gambling.

Well said. Relic packs could still remain with syndicates, but just removing them from the market won't cost DE a lot of income at all, as those are probably not what people spend most of their platinum on anyway.

[PerishedFraud]

Relic packs and mod packs are just outdated. I'm 100% sure they'll be removed eventually except from syndicates, where they are most welcome.

Rivens meanwhile don't require real money but the system is utter garbage. We need some way to fight the RNG in rivens. Locking stats, paying to increase them,etc.

It's not that getting a good riven should be easier, I'm fine with spending like a week working for an awesome mod. The issue with the current system is that you can also spend a month on a mod and get absolutely nothing. 

I hope DE eventually changes how rivens work. Otherwise Warframe is pretty lootbox-free.

Edited December 9, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[Marthrym]

DE's business model as a whole is far more consumer firendly than that of the so-called "AAA" industry, honestly I believe it to be one of the best out there, even for a FREEMIUM game. There are a select few long standing things here and there that DE should really take a look at like mod and relic packs, but these are really relics (wink wink) from the "old" Warframe, they're only still a thing because DE hasn't taken the time to get rid of them yet I think.

I am among the players that strongly believe Riven mods were the biggest mistake the devs made this year, and should simply be removed completely from the game, but are they "gambling"? Rerolling them is a game of chance I'd say, yes, but again, is it that scummy and dangerous form of gambling that EA/Activision/WB tried to shove down our throats? You use kuva to reroll Riven mods, not money. And you can't buy kuva, as far as I know. So I don't consider it gambling at all. As for the costs of the Riven mods themselves, it's all up to US, the players, not DE. WE create inflation, not them. It's a free market, they don't interfere with it at all. It's all on us if things go crosseyed there.

[grigorije]

3 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

If anyone hasn't seen skillup's video on his other channel:

The legislation appears to recognise that paying for things in game =/= gambling, but paying for a chance at something, does.

Warframe does have items in the market that could fall into this legal definition since they do sell "packs" which randomise the reward, however, like the revive system of old, this is probably just left over from an age when this was more necessary to the survival of the game. I would not be surprised if even DE staff have forgotten it exists _{(who even buys those anyways?)} :/

However, there doesn't appear to be anything in warframe vital to the core gameplay loop that requires you to put down money on chance.

My thoughts exactly. 

On a side note, and slightly off-topic, I cannot shake of this feeling that the whole ruckus about loot boxes and EA's poor decision seems almost intentional. I mean, would a huge company like EA, which boasts an army of analysts and psychologists, make such poor business decisions? I'm not one that wears a tin foil hat, but this whole thing, along with new laws against loot boxes seems to be far too absurd. You'd think that EA would notice the negative effects of loot crates even before we did. After all, it does not take a genius to know that people don't want to pay for the ability to use the things they already bought: "This soda costs $1, and another $1 to open it." Silly, right?

[PerishedFraud]

3 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

As for the costs of the Riven mods themselves, it's all up to US, the players, not DE. WE create inflation, not them. It's a free market, they don't interfere with it at all. It's all on us if things go crosseyed there.

It's still a garbage system, and here's why:
When you get a good riven, it's RNG. 
Your work isn't being rewarded, it's RNG.

When you buy a good riven, you aren't paying the seller for his hard work, you're paying him for his luck with RNG.

When you farm kuva, you aren't working towards anything, you're getting tokens for a slot machine.

In fact, Riven mods, through their very existence which is literally just RNG make plenty of people angry. 

Compare to the relic system.

Fight RNG by making radiant relics.

Fight RNG even harder by setting up teams with the same relics, or the same radiant relics even.

Not to mention that the numbers are weighted to begin with. 

Rivens don't offer something like this, they just sit there with their potentially infinite RNG walls and laugh at your face by existing.

Edited December 9, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[MillbrookWest]

16 minutes ago, grigorije said:

My thoughts exactly. 

On a side note, and slightly off-topic, I cannot shake of this feeling that the whole ruckus about loot boxes and EA's poor decision seems almost intentional. I mean, would a huge company like EA, which boasts an army of analysts and psychologists, make such poor business decisions? I'm not one that wears a tin foil hat, but this whole thing, along with new laws against loot boxes seems to be far too absurd. You'd think that EA would notice the negative effects of loot crates even before we did. After all, it does not take a genius to know that people don't want to pay for the ability to use the things they already bought: "This soda costs $1, and another $1 to open it." Silly, right?

There's not exactly one thing you can point to and say "this was it", i studied econ (but haven't actually done any in a long time, hopefully Skillup can do a video!) a lot of the economics (cost benefit analysis, opportunity costs etc.) will give numbers which then gets passed up the chain for senior staff to look at.

Linear games have a lot of risk associated with them, the title needs to be received well to be successful, and even then, it's still a risky endeavour. It does take vast sums of money to create that nuanced experience (what would Uncharted be without those mega facial details!?). If it works out, you get rewarded. This looks bad when you look at it from an accountants perspective, for every dollar EA spend on a title, the chance that the return is poor (>$1) is high. Compare that to a multiplayer game, where you can invest less in the development, and the return looks more promising - especially when you back these numbers up with EA's sport league numbers.

This just looks like a case of utter incompetency from EA's senior staff (CEO included). They were probably too into the "numbers" when they were drafting their '5-10' year plans.

Point in case, the shutting of Visceral Games, and EA's "pivot" in design.

[Marthrym]

26 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said:

It's still a garbage system, and here's why:
When you get a good riven, it's RNG. 
Your work isn't being rewarded, it's RNG.

When you buy a good riven, you aren't paying the seller for his hard work, you're paying him for his luck with RNG.

When you farm kuva, you aren't working towards anything, you're getting tokens for a slot machine.

In fact, Riven mods, through their very existence which is literally just RNG make plenty of people angry. 

Compare to the relic system.

Fight RNG by making radiant relics.

Fight RNG even harder by setting up teams with the same relics, or the same radiant relics even.

Not to mention that the numbers are weighted to begin with. 

Rivens don't offer something like this, they just sit there with their potentially infinite RNG walls and laugh at your face by existing.

The point is not to define whether it is garbage or not. We ALL know it IS garbage. The point of this here thread is to discuss whether it is a form of GAMBLING or not.

RNG is an entirely different beast. An entirely different matter. And yes, it can have a huge influcence on people and if systems using microtransactions and lootboxes are built around it like we saw "AAA" publishers do these past years, they are dangerous, scummy, greedy, prey on gambling addictions and shouldn't exist. But that's not the topic of this thread. Riven mods don't have an entire microtransaction system built around them, do they now? You're veering off the topic there mate. You talk about fighting RNG, not gambling. You want to discuss that? Create or find a thread about that topic instead. Don't try to drive everyone else off the road and into a ditch.

Also did you not read the part where I mention how Riven mods are the biggest mistake the devs made this year and that they should be entirely removed? What kind of sentiment does that convey to you, that I like them? That I think they're fair? That they contribute to the game's balance or general health? I don't see how it could but if it did then let me clarify for you : I HATE Riven mods. With the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns. They are an abomination in Warframe, and they rely almost entirely on a system that I hate even more, Random Number Generation. Oh and most computational methods of RNG are incapable of being anything other than weighted, they all tend to have patterns. And then of course when people "tweak" them it gets even worse. But when you see "common", "uncommon" and "rare" items thrown in the mix you get instantly that indeed, "randomness" is pretty much out the window and that yes, chances are it's going to be tedious and boring. And it sucks, yes, I agree completely. But what can they do, it's a FREEMIUM game, they needed to build some form of economy to get money, and we haven't seen any miraculous business model that makes it perfect for everyone. I hope that day comes too.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Marthrym

[PhotriusPyrelus]

52 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

The legislation appears to recognise that paying for things in game =/= gambling, but paying for a chance at something, does.

All legislation designed to protect people from their own actions is garbage.

Furthermore, CCGs, "Blind bags", and even those gumball machines with the trash-toys in the little plastic pods are just as much gambling as loot boxes, and they've been around for decades with no one causing a stink.

[Marthrym]

4 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

This just looks like a case of utter incompetency from EA's senior staff (CEO included). They were probably too into the "numbers" when they were drafting their '5-10' year plans.

Point in case, the shutting of Visceral Games, and EA's "pivot" in design.

Well, Andrew Wilson is pretty much the "father of lootboxes" in "AAA" games, so he probably just wanted real bad to push his idea even further. I mean he basically created a system that made billions for EA since 2009 I think(?) and got him the chair of CEO. All these sports games that make so much money with their card system, their "ultimate team" crap that so many people buy into, of course when he saw "STAR WARS", probably the biggest franchise out there, he just couldn't help himself, he had to call his buddies and say "Hey! MOAR MONEY!" and they all came running and now we have "Gamblefront II". EA's not the only one though, they just went too far too fast, look at WB's "Shadow of More Dollar" (Thank God for Jim sterling), and a few others in the works like UFC 3 (EA just can't stop I swear) that showed in its beta that it was apparently even worse than BFII, which is quite the feat... Hell, even Overwatch has lootboxes. The only "redeeming" thing about their lootboxes is that they don't affect gameplay on a mechanical standpoint. They still prey on gambling addictions though. And ironically Activision Blizzard hasn't made that much money out of it, they released the numbers for the game's first year and they were surpisingly "low" when it came to their lootbox sales.

EA is the serial killer of video game studios, Visceral Games is just one of many, have you seen the list of all the studios they murdered these past few years? And now they got their hands on Respawn Entertainment! Can you imagine Titanfall 3 now? The horror. THE HORROR. And Anthem with, as you mentioned, this stupid 10 year plan when the BASE of that plan isn't even out and might crash and burn, especially with what happened this year and the backlash? Dear Lotus...

[PerishedFraud]

Woah woah @Marthrym why do you think I'm attacking you, I had no such intention :[

Problem with rivens is that people are still perfectly willing to pay tons and tons of  platinum for them. There's no direct microtransaction system but they're still psychologically unfair. Because the system is so horrible, people end up wanting to spend money to "beat" it.

That's my reasoning for dissing rivens here, I think it's pretty justified. Either way I don't think you're wrong in anything that you've said so far ;p

Edit: I guess there's one thing I disagree on, and that's that rivens need to be RNG-filled to make money. If people had to work their asses off to make nice rivens, they'd still have huge prices, just without any of the negativity of RNG. So no, I don't think RNG is needed to make money from rivens at all. I still do agree with the rest though.

Edited December 9, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[MillbrookWest]

6 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Well, Andrew Wilson is pretty much the "father of lootboxes" in "AAA" games, so he probably just wanted real bad to push his idea even further.

It's easy to villanize Andrew Wilson as the face of this whole debacle, and while i wont argue his direction led to this, at a base level, Andrew Wilson (CEO that he is) answers to the Board of Directors.

Not that i have any idea who makes up EA's board, but typically, the Board and its investors know sweet diddly about the industry they are in - You could have a guy who's expertise is in Rain-tree Logging sitting on the board of a Pharmaceutical company for example - These guys really only care about money; if $1 goes into the company, does $1.50, or $2 come out? You never want to be the guy who tells them less is coming out than is going in. 

As much as the Senior staff work to the numbers, at the very top, there is nothing but numbers - and Wilson answers to these guys. If the board saw the revenue from the Ultimate Team sales and started asking questions (like "how can we get more money?"), Wilson would be obliged to act as is expected of his position.

The fact that this forum exists, as an extension of a game that survives on MTX's, shows that the model is viable. However, EA were way off the mark with how they thought the show would go down (so to speak). Wilson is probably going to bare the brunt of the furore (and indeed he should, it's his idea) but all the blame can't be placed squarely at his feet. This shows the mentality and direction of EA's top executives (all of them) and where they intend to take their gaming company (The Board typically decides on the direction a company will take). It doesn't look like the industry and its consumers want to follow, however.

[Makillda]

38 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

It's easy to villanize Andrew Wilson as the face of this whole debacle, and while i wont argue his direction led to this, at a base level, Andrew Wilson (CEO that he is) answers to the Board of Directors.

Not that i have any idea who makes up EA's board, but typically, the Board and its investors know sweet diddly about the industry they are in - You could have a guy who's expertise is in Rain-tree Logging sitting on the board of a Pharmaceutical company for example - These guys really only care about money; if $1 goes into the company, does $1.50, or $2 come out? You never want to be the guy who tells them less is coming out than is going in. 

As much as the Senior staff work to the numbers, at the very top, there is nothing but numbers - and Wilson answers to these guys. If the board saw the revenue from the Ultimate Team sales and started asking questions (like "how can we get more money?"), Wilson would be obliged to act as is expected of his position.

The fact that this forum exists, as an extension of a game that survives on MTX's, shows that the model is viable. However, EA were way off the mark with how they thought the show would go down (so to speak). Wilson is probably going to bare the brunt of the furore (and indeed he should, it's his idea) but all the blame can't be placed squarely at his feet. This shows the mentality and direction of EA's top executives (all of them) and where they intend to take their gaming company (The Board typically decides on the direction a company will take). It doesn't look like the industry and its consumers want to follow, however.

 

[MillbrookWest]

1 minute ago, Makillda said:

-snip-

Read my post, i did point out the idea is his (and even stated not arguing against it). However, i expanded this beyond just "Andrew Wilson".

Even if Andrew Wilson gets booted, the board will replace him with someone else just like him. Someone who can actually do MTX's.

[Marthrym]

5 hours ago, BeeOverlord said:

Woah woah @Marthrym why do you think I'm attacking you, I had no such intention :[

Problem with rivens is that people are still perfectly willing to pay tons and tons of  platinum for them. There's no direct microtransaction system but they're still psychologically unfair. Because the system is so horrible, people end up wanting to spend money to "beat" it.

That's my reasoning for dissing rivens here, I think it's pretty justified. Either way I don't think you're wrong in anything that you've said so far ;p

Edit: I guess there's one thing I disagree on, and that's that rivens need to be RNG-filled to make money. If people had to work their asses off to make nice rivens, they'd still have huge prices, just without any of the negativity of RNG. So no, I don't think RNG is needed to make money from rivens at all. I still do agree with the rest though.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come out so angrily at you, it was more directed at Riven mods and RNG systems in general, and since I'm a short fuse moron sometimes, I go full carpet bombing instead of taking the time to "compose" myself. I went crosseyed and I apologize.

I don't want Rivens mods to be RNG based either by the way. I mean I don't want Riven mods period, they just worsen the whole "lack of balance and challenge in Warframe" issue for me, they're part of the problem, not the solution. But as far as the prices of Riven mods go, it's all on the players IMO, Riven mods make our own greedy side come out, in part due to RNG permeating them so much, yes, but also because people are... people. I guess DE is to blame for their implementation though. We didn't ask for Riven mods after all, we asked for balance and fair, fun and challenging content.

And I'm sorry again for lashing out at you like this. Why does hindsight always have to show up too late?

 

1 hour ago, MillbrookWest said:

It's easy to villanize Andrew Wilson as the face of this whole debacle, and while i wont argue his direction led to this, at a base level, Andrew Wilson (CEO that he is) answers to the Board of Directors.

Not that i have any idea who makes up EA's board, but typically, the Board and its investors know sweet diddly about the industry they are in - You could have a guy who's expertise is in Rain-tree Logging sitting on the board of a Pharmaceutical company for example - These guys really only care about money; if $1 goes into the company, does $1.50, or $2 come out? You never want to be the guy who tells them less is coming out than is going in. 

As much as the Senior staff work to the numbers, at the very top, there is nothing but numbers - and Wilson answers to these guys. If the board saw the revenue from the Ultimate Team sales and started asking questions (like "how can we get more money?"), Wilson would be obliged to act as is expected of his position.

The fact that this forum exists, as an extension of a game that survives on MTX's, shows that the model is viable. However, EA were way off the mark with how they thought the show would go down (so to speak). Wilson is probably going to bare the brunt of the furore (and indeed he should, it's his idea) but all the blame can't be placed squarely at his feet. This shows the mentality and direction of EA's top executives (all of them) and where they intend to take their gaming company (The Board typically decides on the direction a company will take). It doesn't look like the industry and its consumers want to follow, however.

That's just the thing, i'm not villanizing him. He did it all by himself. MTXs are not intrinsically bad indeed, it's how and where you use them that turns them into exploitative and devious little things like in Battlefront 2. Or, like in Warframe, a more fair, consumer-friendly business model. And personally, I am against ANY kind of MTXs in paid for games. The ONLY games where I tolerate them are games like Warframe. That's where Andrew Wilson plays a part, he's the one who screwed us all over, he opened the way for all the others by refining and standardizing this crap in the "AAA" games industry.

EA's board didn't create the "Wilson lootbox", again, he did it all by himself. Well he probably had help, but back then he was lead on games like FIFA and/or UEFA if I recall correctly, he wasn't CEO. It's precisely what got him the position. Shareholders don't care how you get them money in this industry, as long as it's legal, mostly because as you say, they have no clue how the industry they invest in works, and frankly I don't think they even care. That doesn't mean they are above reproach of course, far from it. If anything, they are just as slimy as Wilson's "business model", but the idea came from him, not them.

You know, ironically enough, I don't think the shareholders/investors ever did ask Wilson "how to get more money" because he and they always did everything they could to have "all of the money" to begin with. That's how EA works, they don't want "more money", they want "all of the money". Unfortunately, unlike Wilson, these... "people" are not public figures, they are mostly faceless, much harder to expose. But at least it's a step in the right direction, it leaves them just a little bit worried, tugging at their collars, thinking that maybe, juuust maybe, they screwed up, and it's time to change the way they run their "business". Sadly I do agree with you though, unless EA in its entirety, with all its Golden geese, ends up in jeopardy, it's highly unlikely they'll ever truly care enough to stop with this kind of exploitative business. But hey, it's still a victory, might as well enjoy it. Hopefully this warning shot and its consequences will force publishers to step back enough to make things fair enough for consumers in the future.

 

In the end, the only reason why this whole mess came to light in the first place is because Wilson and EA went too far, too fast, with the worst possible franchise to try this one on. Over the past 8 years, the consumers' tolerance threshold for that kind of scummy business practices has been slowly eroding, getting smaller and thinner every time some publisher went a little bit too far before swiftly backpedaling. Wilson and EA were somehow too disconnected with that reality, too unaware, or maybe simply too greedy to realize that they would just blow so far past that threshold that it would cause a truly massive backlash and attract the most unwanted of attentions. They tried their best to use the organizations they "finance", the ESA and the ESRB to say "no no no, lootboxes are not legally gambling", but unfortunately for them, and in my opinion, unfortunately for us too, several governments had to step in to call them on their bullsh!t. And now, their last line of defense, "lootboxes are not LEGALLY gambling" (emphasis on LEGALLY, that's how scummy they are) also just went right out the window when officials answered by saying "ok, they're not LEGALLY gambling, but they have similar effects on human psychology and are dangerous for kids and young adults, and ultimately for everyone". With the public opinion made aware, and more importantly angry and scared parents stirring sh!t up the world over, several law projects are either being discussed (and even at least one in the writing that I know of) right now.

 

But ultimately the saddest fact that we shouldn't lose sight of is that the ESA and the ESRB were originally created to prevent governments from interfering with the video game industry in a terribad way back in the day. And now, because of that very same industry, we applaud these governments for doing what a few years ago we were hoping to avoid in the first place. So yeah, F*** YOU Electronic Arts, F*** YOU Activision Blizzard, F*** YOU Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment (we really shouldn't forget about these last two either, they're just as bad as EA, with for instance Bungie Activision actively trying to pull one under the rug with Destiny 2's "The Curse Of Osiris" DLC). You screwed us all with your rampant greed and you made the job a lot harder and trickier for the good developers and publishers out there, like Digital Extremes Limited themselves for instance.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Marthrym

[Guest]