Reminder - Shields: Still Useless

[(PSN)Eldestbun]

On 15/12/2017 at 5:37 PM, tarfeef101 said:

While a lot of the counter-arguments here are actually valid to at least some degree, there is something that makes almost any non-vitality build almost pointless for late-game:
slash procs. I can get hit by 1 slash proc from a lvl 200 enemy, and without vitality i'm dead. even with, i'm possibly dead, and may need health pads without healing mechanics baked into my setup. The fact that 1 tick of toxin or bleed can bypass shields and wreck you does make it very hard to justify modding for shields over health. having health at least gives you time to drop a pad in those kind of situations.

How in Serration's name do you survive a hit from a level 200 enemy with Vitality?

 

On 15/12/2017 at 6:09 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

And how much of them is actually used by enemies?

Im sure i have only seen enemies using: toxin, electric, heat, magnetic, blast and the IPS damage types.

From this we have 2 damage types what bypass shields and one what removes it. Sadly these elements are used by fodder and heavy units mostly so they will be the main reason to die.

If you're dealing with infested, adapt. Face them at range, avoid drawn-out conflicts. Slap on Rejuvenation, or bring Health Restores. Maybe don't stand in the green clouds much.

As for Grineer, you're more likely to lose your shields than you are to go down to bleed procs. Trust me, I've got more than 50% playtime in Mag, I know.

On 16/12/2017 at 5:02 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Nice try.

Nearly every enemy in the game uses weapons capable of ignoring shields. The ENTIRE Grineer army can make Shields irrelevant. Near perfect accuracy, hitscan weapons and Slash procs are enough to render Redirection pointless.

Oh, my goodness. You mean to say I was hallucinating those two years in which my shields were quite capable of standing up to grineer threats? How shocking.

Bullet jump. Roll. Move, kill, make use of your powers, and pick up a small health restore blueprint in the market, a medium one from your clan, or a large from either New Loka or the Steel Meridian.

[(PSN)Quil_Nye]

i think shields are fine but a lot of mobs seem to have abilities that bypass shields which is somewhat okay  i think it should scale like level1-40  no bypass damage but mobs 41-30,000  should .

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

If you're dealing with infested, adapt. Face them at range, avoid drawn-out conflicts. Slap on Rejuvenation, or bring Health Restores. Maybe don't stand in the green clouds much.

Good luck with that in those extremely small room maps and areas where you must stand close to defense target. The green cloud is avoidable but when every mob around you deal toxin damage because theres atleast 2 toxic ancient hidden in a group of healers things get out of hand fast.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

As for Grineer, you're more likely to lose your shields than you are to go down to bleed procs. Trust me, I've got more than 50% playtime in Mag, I know.

As for the grineer i died mostly die due to instakill strikes and bleed procs, as a mag you have the capatibility to defend yourself agains such things but try that on other frames. Shields are the worstly implemented defense line in the whole game and this fact has striked up the shield gate discussion too.

[tarfeef101]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

How in Serration's name do you survive a hit from a level 200 enemy with Vitality?

hahahahahaha

The easy answer is tanky frames/damage reduction, the harder one being not napalms, bombards, shotguns, butchers... You can take 1 bullet from a lancer :D

[(PSN)Eldestbun]

On 20/12/2017 at 2:27 PM, tarfeef101 said:

hahahahahaha

The easy answer is tanky frames/damage reduction, the harder one being not napalms, bombards, shotguns, butchers... You can take 1 bullet from a lancer :D

I'll give you damage reduction for up to level 150, if we're stacking armour and blessing. After that, you're not surviving a hit, you're surviving a near miss.

[Skaleek]

Shields are useless. So are 90% the mods in warframe. So are 90% of the weapons in warframe. And 90% of the missions in warframe. And 90% of the relics in warframe. and 90% of the rewards in warframe. and 90% of the companions in warframe. etc...

Warframe is predicated  upon giving you what you want less than 20% of the time. You spend most of your time wading through the trash to get where you want to go. Shields are just another instance of a long pattern of things that have fallen by the wayside.

TL;DR; Status Quo.

 

By the way, instead of adding shield gating, I predict they will add some strange mod to try and "fix shields". Ie: Hardened Shields, Shields are now affected by your armor. So basically you'll have another mod you have to equip in our slot of 8 just to fix an issue we're having in WF. See: Body count, Speed holster, etc.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Skaleek

[tarfeef101]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

I'll give you damage reduction for up to level 150, if we're stacking armour and blessing. After that, you're not surviving a hit, you're surviving a near miss.

lol give me all you want, i play the game, so i kinda know that i survive hits at those levels... (but we don't run bless trins normally, fyi)

[(PSN)Eldestbun]

On 20/12/2017 at 8:20 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Good luck with that in those extremely small room maps and areas where you must stand close to defense target. The green cloud is avoidable but when every mob around you deal toxin damage because theres atleast 2 toxic ancient hidden in a group of healers things get out of hand fast.

Non-Sortie Defence targets don't take toxin damage, or at least they don't as far as I've observed. Every infested tileset gives you enough room to get away from the defence target and let it become the focus of the infested.

So sit on a high spot and shoot them from above.

 

If you know there are toxic ancients in a crowd, you have two options: 1) Don't be in the crowd. Bullet jump away, fire from range with something that can hurt large groups.

2) Use a Melee weapon that can kill the crowd even through ancient healers, like a polearm, whip, bladewhip, heavy blade, longsword, duel swords, nikana, hammer, gunblade... Pretty much anything other than duel daggers. This option is best if you have a weapon with life strike, or the Hirudo.

You are never forced to stand still. You never have to. You can always evade to a more suitable position, especially when protecting defence or moble defence targets.

On 20/12/2017 at 8:20 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

As for the grineer i died mostly die due to instakill strikes and bleed procs, as a mag you have the capatibility to defend yourself agains such things but try that on other frames. Shields are the worstly implemented defense line in the whole game and this fact has striked up the shield gate discussion too.

I'm sorry, have you ever played Mag? If there is any warframe less suited to such defence, I'm not aware of them.

I love my first 'frame dearly, but she's surely not a defensive one.

 

[LuckyCharm]

Shields are fine for all areas of the starchart, which is where 90% of the game is spent. After that if you're dying from lack of shields it's not the games fault you wanted to fight level 150's with no cc. The game hasn't ever been balanced  for super high level scaling and the way enemies armor and hp scales proves it. 

 

That said shields also work for damage reduction like mesa, trinity  and gara so that's a thing

[EvilChaosKnight]

You know, while I can understand how toxic damage can go through the shields, how the actual f... do slash procs do that? The projectile fired at us was stopped before it got to the fleshy bits so it can't be causing bleeding, can it, eh?

Also slash procs go through shield. Toxin damage goes through shield. Gas damage doesn't. Logic.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

I'm sorry, have you ever played Mag? If there is any warframe less suited to such defence, I'm not aware of them.

I love my first 'frame dearly, but she's surely not a defensive one.

High range magnetize bubble and the grineer cant really do anything to you as long as you stand inside the bubble but at the moment you step outside you get slash procced and die.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Eldestbun said:

Non-Sortie Defence targets don't take toxin damage, or at least they don't as far as I've observed. Every infested tileset gives you enough room to get away from the defence target and let it become the focus of the infested.

So sit on a high spot and shoot them from above.

 

If you know there are toxic ancients in a crowd, you have two options: 1) Don't be in the crowd. Bullet jump away, fire from range with something that can hurt large groups.

2) Use a Melee weapon that can kill the crowd even through ancient healers, like a polearm, whip, bladewhip, heavy blade, longsword, duel swords, nikana, hammer, gunblade... Pretty much anything other than duel daggers. This option is best if you have a weapon with life strike, or the Hirudo.

You are never forced to stand still. You never have to. You can always evade to a more suitable position, especially when protecting defence or moble defence targets.

Its not about the defence target getting procced, its about you cant stay near the defence target because of the constant toxin procs and be the time you reach the point where the toxin procs are dangerous you are at the point where you cant really leave the pod/extractor or whatever you try to defend because it gets overrun.

I mostly use harrow or nyx nowadays and i know that even with spin to win i can take a lot of damage just be being near the toxics and venomous infesteds.

 

5 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You know, while I can understand how toxic damage can go through the shields, how the actual f... do slash procs do that? The projectile fired at us was stopped before it got to the fleshy bits so it can't be causing bleeding, can it, eh?

Also slash procs go through shield. Toxin damage goes through shield. Gas damage doesn't. Logic.

It sounds even more logical when you realize that gas damage proc deals toxin damage and not gas damage.

[AJ5511]

Inaros for the win

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You know, while I can understand how toxic damage can go through the shields, how the actual f... do slash procs do that? The projectile fired at us was stopped before it got to the fleshy bits so it can't be causing bleeding, can it, eh?

Also slash procs go through shield. Toxin damage goes through shield. Gas damage doesn't. Logic.

Exactly. It literally doesn't make any logical sense.

IPS proc damage should be increased, but changed so that it can only trigger if Shields are down.

[Spectre-8]

But Inaros doesn't have shields

[Mewvg2]

I'd like to remind everyone that DE is still developing a system to make shields better. 'Shield-gating' or whatever you want to call it. Soon^TM

[(PSN)Eldestbun]

On 01/01/2018 at 2:12 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

High range magnetize bubble and the grineer cant really do anything to you as long as you stand inside the bubble but at the moment you step outside you get slash procced and die.

Again, have you played Mag? You are aware that you can be hit inside a magnetize bubble?

Honestly, if you're concerned about one slash proc, you're playing well past the level range you're suited for.

On 01/01/2018 at 2:12 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Its not about the defence target getting procced, its about you cant stay near the defence target because of the constant toxin procs and be the time you reach the point where the toxin procs are dangerous you are at the point where you cant really leave the pod/extractor or whatever you try to defend because it gets overrun.

Then you're staying in the mission too long. No one to blame but yourself.

 

[SnakeSword53]

I think we could make shields viable if there was shield gating. I’ve been 1 shot by some enemies when I’ve had full health and shields. With shield gating I think this would make shields more useful and elevate some of their “useless” feeling. 

[AJ5511]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

Ran a Survival earlier. Half my health gone. Bleeding. Proc'd with Puncture, too. So I look up...

575 Shields remaining.

Why do we even HAVE shields? They're useless. Utterly, completely useless. A Warframe can lose most of its HEALTH...without ever having Shields go down. In ANY OTHER GAME, this would be a bug. A game breaking, player experiencing warping, urgent bug. 

In Warframe, its business as usual. 

Why dont we just remove Shields, up Armor for every frame and balance around that? Or stop scaling enemy accuracy with damage proc hitscan weapons. OR make it so enemies ont even HAVE hitscan weapons and our agility actually MEANS something.

Whatever you choose...if you are going to insist on Shields, at least make them WORK. Because the ones we have now are just really poor game design.

I really think the only reason we have shields is because the enemies have shields. We can kill them just about as quickly with bleed procs without touching their shields as they can. It also allows more variety in terms of the frames, as some of them get low shields with high health, and high shields with low health.

This also plays in to the factions you are dealing with, because the corpus are known for impact damage (due to their high shields) and grinner for the fleshy damage. Its most likely one of those things where certain weapons and frames are supposed to be used for certain factions. This will force players to acquire different frames, because each has different shield/ health/ armor levels. Other than that, they are basically useless, and I end up running either an inaros build, or chroma vex armor build for pure damage. 

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Honestly I think the fix would be simple: Give all Warframes -mild- health regeneration. Not enough to make them utter tanks, but enough to gradually counteract bleed procs. I mean they're high-tech suits of living armor, so it would make some sense to have gradual healing. Now it'd have to be utterly tiny like +1 per second, but it would be a total life saver for high-shield low-health frames such as Nyx and Volt. Because yeah, those bleed procs will down you faster than the actual bullets.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)alchemPyro said:

Honestly I think the fix would be simple: Give all Warframes -mild- health regeneration. Not enough to make them utter tanks, but enough to gradually counteract bleed procs. I mean they're high-tech suits of living armor, so it would make some sense to have gradual healing. Now it'd have to be utterly tiny like +1 per second, but it would be a total life saver for high-shield low-health frames such as Nyx and Volt. Because yeah, those bleed procs will down you faster than the actual bullets.

Which is especially hilarious in that the bullets causing the proc aren't hitting you in the first place... because... Shields!

[BlackCoMerc]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:41 PM, Mewvg2 said:

I'd like to remind everyone that DE is still developing a system to make shields better. 'Shield-gating' or whatever you want to call it. Soon^TM

Soon has been Soon for years now...

[Axterix13]

The idea that shields are useless is flawed.  The very complaint about damage that bypasses it pretty much proves the point.  When you lose health, it is hard for most frames to get it back.  Most frames lack self-healing, health orbs are a rarity, and so on.  So if anything, the problem lies more in health loss being too hard to bounce back from for most frames.

Now, there are things you can do to heal.  You can use consumables.  Frames like Oberon, Nekros, Inaros, and Trinity can heal, directly or indirectly.  Rejuvenation offers minor healing (it really needs to be bumped up in effectiveness).  But most of those aren't great solutions, not unless you're actually playing one of the self healing frames.  The best general solution I've found is the sentinel Medi-ray mod.  It'll take care of most of the bleed effects and toxin damage that would otherwise drop you over time, as well as help you bounce back from times the enemies get past your shields.  Though obviously, if you're dealing with 150+ level enemies, it won't do much, and your sentinel will probably die from toxin damage if facing Infested, but the game isn't really designed to have us face that level enemies, so those sorts of things are to be expected.

[SnakeSword53]

On 1/4/2018 at 10:23 PM, Axterix13 said:

The idea that shields are useless is flawed.  The very complaint about damage that bypasses it pretty much proves the point.  When you lose health, it is hard for most frames to get it back.  Most frames lack self-healing, health orbs are a rarity, and so on.  So if anything, the problem lies more in health loss being too hard to bounce back from for most frames.

Now, there are things you can do to heal.  You can use consumables.  Frames like Oberon, Nekros, Inaros, and Trinity can heal, directly or indirectly.  Rejuvenation offers minor healing (it really needs to be bumped up in effectiveness).  But most of those aren't great solutions, not unless you're actually playing one of the self healing frames.  The best general solution I've found is the sentinel Medi-ray mod.  It'll take care of most of the bleed effects and toxin damage that would otherwise drop you over time, as well as help you bounce back from times the enemies get past your shields.  Though obviously, if you're dealing with 150+ level enemies, it won't do much, and your sentinel will probably die from toxin damage if facing Infested, but the game isn't really designed to have us face that level enemies, so those sorts of things are to be expected.

I do use Medi-ray and Rejubination. (I do believe that should be buffed a bit) But with some higher levels even a perfect health, shields, no procs its possible to get 1 shot by an enemy (ex: bombard missile) with nothing you can do about it but hope ur squad mates will res u in time.  With shield gating a warframe, for example volt, can take that 1 shot and be vulnerable but still get a chance to respond and try to react to the damage. 

Maybe a way to make this more balanced would be to have the shields absorb the percent of damage that they are charged to:

• Sheilds 100% = All damage absorbed
• 75% = 75% absorbed     etc...

---

[(PSN)Musicopia]

On 1/4/2018 at 11:23 PM, Axterix13 said:

The idea that shields are useless is flawed.  The very complaint about damage that bypasses it pretty much proves the point.  When you lose health, it is hard for most frames to get it back.  Most frames lack self-healing, health orbs are a rarity, and so on.  So if anything, the problem lies more in health loss being too hard to bounce back from for most frames.

Now, there are things you can do to heal.  You can use consumables.  Frames like Oberon, Nekros, Inaros, and Trinity can heal, directly or indirectly.  Rejuvenation offers minor healing (it really needs to be bumped up in effectiveness).  But most of those aren't great solutions, not unless you're actually playing one of the self healing frames.  The best general solution I've found is the sentinel Medi-ray mod.  It'll take care of most of the bleed effects and toxin damage that would otherwise drop you over time, as well as help you bounce back from times the enemies get past your shields.  Though obviously, if you're dealing with 150+ level enemies, it won't do much, and your sentinel will probably die from toxin damage if facing Infested, but the game isn't really designed to have us face that level enemies, so those sorts of things are to be expected.

I run a full set of Magus Elevate on my operator = Every Warframe now has healing. 

[Axterix13]

On 1/6/2018 at 10:45 AM, SnakeSword53 said:

Maybe a way to make this more balanced would be to have the shields absorb the percent of damage that they are charged to:

• Sheilds 100% = All damage absorbed
• 75% = 75% absorbed     etc...

---

Such a change would also help make magnetic, impact, and cold damage more desirable against Corpus than Toxin.  But on the flip side, it would make the enhanced shield missions more annoying ;)