Uncle Thay's slightly biased look at the new Zephyr

[ObviousLee]

37 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

You've said this before, and my counter was simply that this isn't a military action game, it's a horde shooter, enemies disrupt themselves regularly by poor pathing and damage can be reduced by something as simple as rolling. The enemy is not intelligent.

Air superiority is wonderful, it's just not needed in Warframe because the method of engagement with the enemy is so vastly different, in fact unless you overhaul how the rest of the game is played it's often not even wanted in Warframe.

I don't doubt your military experience, it's the application in this setting that I question. Even further when you consider your proposed implementation; the game engine would either need to use Archwing Mode, which would force you out of the usual gameplay setting the same as it does for Titania and Plains Archwing, making you unable to pick up loot unless you were on it, have to deactivate to interact with the rest of the game, your pets and sentinels would be left behind, and so on, or you'd need to program an entire new movement system to accomplish this. It's investment in the ability that's, to me in specific, and hundreds of others in anecdotal, not worth the result.

I'm not saying that the Operator Dash style of movement is the only way to go, I'm saying that with Tailwind in the current state it's in, it's the best improvement that the Devs can put in without rebuilding Zephyr, or entire parts of the game, from the ground up (which they seem entirely set on not doing, if this rework so far is anything to judge).

Granted the enemy isn't exactly intelligent, sure I'll agree to that. That doesn't change the fact that air superiority offers something new to the game in the sense of a different method of play within the same space. It adds a different method of solution for the problems at hand that are presented to the player during missions. It adds diversity of play. Your dislike of this particular section of play may be coloring your statements, but I can't actually claim that as I don't know how you think. All I know for certain is that we're clashing on something that by all rights we should be agreeing upon as far as I'm concerned.

Not your place to dictate that air superiority is needed or not, nor is it mine. I'm saying it offers unique advantages, not that it's required.

My proposed implementation requires minimal retuning in all honesty, as it builds off the mechanics that are already present in the kit, right now. The only factual difference between tailwind as is versus what I have in mind, is that the forward flight doesn't cease when you hit the end of the abilities duration after you charge it up. The speed for the charge leading to flight would be drastically reduced until you utilize the sprint function(which is exactly how titania's flight speed increases, so that mechanic already exists) and you get the same high speed flight you get with normal tailwind.

This still allows for the use of tailwind as it is currently implemented, right now. So, the only actual changes are retuning the existing mechanics in a slight manner to yield a more diverse result that also mirrors the operator's nonsense levels of aerial maneuvering without multiple button presses to maintain it.

The use of an archwing is not necessary, as the flight animation used in tailwind already exists. The flight aspect of tailwind already exists. The flight mechanic already exists. It's just currently poorly implemented, and could be fantastically implemented if only restructured.

Expanding the tilesets is again, something that has been done before without creating new assets. The only thing any of my tailwind changes require, is changing the code for what function leads to what. This does not require rebuilding her kit (as my previous rework thread did in fact require) nor does it involve any genuinely substantial work to accomodate(asked a game developer who frequents my discord about it, said yes it would take work but since everything is already there and only needs to be re-arranged it could possibly be done within a week if one were to focus specifically on it, it being the frame). So although that in of itself is an anecdotal counter argument, it gives rise to the notion that it's possible to re-tweak this ability to again, accomodate more than one style of play, thus please more than one crowd of players. Some of us do in fact want her to have controlled flight and her burst travel of tailwind as it functions now. So, why not both?

 

Edit: for the non-sprint flight she'd be moving at a constant forward direction aligned to your aiming cursor, with no hover like how titania functions. The hover would be as it is presently in that you become stationary. This both highlights the hover function and alleviates the issues of hover in that you can resume travel upon release of the button that initiates hover.

Edited February 13, 2018 by ObviousLee

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Well, the reasoning behind my suggestion of slightly enlarging the mpas is as mentioned before, tit's already been done. There's already a precedent for it, so why not use it again if it's necessary.

I definitely understand and remember the edits, but going back and editing maps without missing stuff is very, very time consuming.  They aren't doing real reworks to frames to save time/effort and focus, even frames that could actually use it, so them going back and doing this to maps has basically no chance of happening.

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

But I'm against the notion of tailwind only needing to be a burst flight mode when it has the potential to be so much more. It can be done in such a way as to appease the entirety of the zephyr fan base relatively easily if it's just aligned properly. I also personally feel that divebomb on enemy collision would rectify a lot of issues with tailwind. Think of it like this; You either burst forward or fly forward and the divebomb is triggered in a constant effect during the path of travel. This would essentially turn her tailwind into a full on aerial bulldozer. If she's knocking down entire lines of enemies during her flight, she's providing crowd control just by being there, which also ties into her augment, while also being able to cancel out of tailwind by virtue of the hover aspect. I personally don't like the limitation of divebomb being a down only ability, but that's partially a personal preference issue.

Oh I totally agree with you and hoped that's what they'd do to divebomb when they mentioned adding it onto TW.  Its been suggested quite a bit also.  Instead, we got...boosted damage on ability that does no damage and can do no damage with a silly and poorly thought out augment that may be able to be used if you have range *and* strength so you can take off from a cluster of enemies to get the extra damage boosts and then divebomb back down on them...if, it even works that way.  Otherwise there is no easy way to make use of this mod flying just above ground level to try and gather stacks and then fly up in the air and divebomb back down.

I still wish TW would dash you in the direction you were moving so you could invulnerable (add it to TW) wind dash left right and back with blast or impact status to any enemy touched/moved through, but I'd settle for the changes to functionality that I posted above.

[ObviousLee]

2 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

I definitely understand and remember the edits, but going back and editing maps without missing stuff is very, very time consuming.  They aren't doing real reworks to frames to save time/effort and focus, even frames that could actually use it, so them going back and doing this to maps has basically no chance of happening.

Oh I totally agree with you and hoped that's what they'd do to divebomb when they mentioned adding it onto TW.  Its been suggested quite a bit also.  Instead, we got...boosted damage on ability that does no damage and can do no damage with a silly and poorly thought out augment that may be able to be used if you have range *and* strength so you can take off from a cluster of enemies to get the extra damage boosts and then divebomb back down on them...if, it even works that way.  Otherwise there is no easy way to make use of this mod flying just above ground level to try and gather stacks and then fly up in the air and divebomb back down.

I still wish TW would dash you in the direction you were moving so you could invulnerable (add it to TW) wind dash left right and back with blast or impact status to any enemy touched/moved through, but I'd settle for the changes to functionality that I posted above.

Well, as far as expanding the tilesets as far as I'm aware the only real thing needed to be done would essentially be the hallways. Those would be the only things I feel would be a requirement to edit, but I do see your point. So, omitting that for a moment, the tailwind suggestion I've put forth still remedies the issues of A: lack of control on tailwinds use. B: the ability to control when you enter and exit tailwind flight. C: adds diversity of play for the ability. D: allows the augment to actually be of any use(nobody enjoys an augment that cannot work because the ability is faulty). E: utilizes everything in the current tailwind in a more streamlined and cohesive way. And most importantly F: Pleases all crowds by removing any excuse of people not being able to play zephyr the way they want to.

At least that's my thoughts on the matter.

Edited February 14, 2018 by ObviousLee

[EchoesOfRain]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

DEScott just ignored any potential fixes to the current buggy state of Tailwind...

 

Hoping that they have some sort of mechanical changes/fixes coming, and that's why Tailwind hasn't been touched at all since the rework came out, needing more time to implement them rather than just some numbers. It is a tad worrying that they, again, haven't even touched Tailwind since it's new iteration considering it seems to be the biggest focus of Zephyr feedback, but I'm trying to keep optimistic

[ShadowFel]

Lots of good thoughts in here.  I think the Tornado solution of "smaller range of tornado spawns from targeting, but significantly faster movement overall" would be a balanced and effective way to make the ability better and more usable.  Also making them hold live enemies more effectively and drop dead enemies sooner would be nice (I have fired an embarrassing number of shots into Tornados filled with dead enemies because I figured that at least one was still alive), but baby steps.

Tailwind definitely needs...something, to say the least.  Walls and ceilings are definitely Zephyr's greatest enemy right now.  I took a maxed duration Zephyr into the Corpus mountain tileset just to see how Tailwind did, and I believe there were 2 times upon casting Tailwind that I didn't end up beak-deep in some rocks or metal (and one of those ended with me going out-of-bounds).  Being able to cancel with crouch and/or go into a momentum-cancelling, controllable hover based on duration/aim glide mods with aim would be good (this would probably remove the "free cast on hover" mechanic, but since you always pay the full energy cost of tailwind for the hover right now, that mechanic is largely negated anyhow).  I personally don't really want any kind of flight mode for her.  I bump into enough things with tiny Titania as is, and I frankly don't see the value.  Because of how uncontrollable it is (and the fact that you cannot hover afterwards), the augment is really only useful for a single cast or being very angry at a Bolkor right now, which I'm sure everyone agrees is a shame, and should be resolved.

The charge for hovering is also very bad.  I pretty much only take advantage of it during the period between when one Plains bounty ends and the objective marker for the next one appears, since that's the only time I have the time to charge safely.  Just making a "hold" (similar to the mechanics behind Minelayer and Quiver) input on the ground go straight up instead of the direction we're facing would probably be enough.  Come to think of it, a "hold" input could also be used to initiate a divebomb while airborne, instead of the somewhat dodgy aim detection we have now.  And a stronger, animation-breaking knockdown on divebombs would be appreciated.

Not really sure what to do with Air Burst myself.  Definitely should move a lot faster (like Freeze or Fireball fast).  Would also like to see the bigger Tornadoes do something to make casting it into a Tornado worthwhile.  Larger pull range, more damage, higher speed, anything.

I don't really think Turbulence needs anything.  The longer cast animation hasn't posed any problems for me, though being able to cast while walking would be nice.

[blacklusterseph]

I'm generally disillusioned with the rework. I've given my level-headed feedback in the mega thread but for the sake of amusement I'd suggest:

Tailwind: retain the current launch, make it do what Airburst does, letting Zephyr become the projectile (that would fix the remaining issue I had with it before the rework), make the burst scale off power strength or range instead. I don't know how much if any this would mitgate the issue OP has identified with the animation lock across the various builds people run, but at this point I'd take that as a compromise.

Airburst: Bring Divebomb back. Straight down on button press, Still activate on ground. Currently, it provides no speed advantage over slam attacks (ironically making the people who complained about the similarities before even more right). From what I've tested the angle detection on slam attacks is also more forgiving than Divebomb which would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. Given that, DE might as well just make it trigger and move like it did before. At least then I wouldn't have to look down first before I use it. As OP points out, the current skill is still busted so something that actually addresses that instead of hiding it behind another skill would be appreciated.

Tornado: I'm beating a dead horse, but all the original skill needed was faster tornadoes with better pathing. That would already make it stronger than the seemingly more complicated thing DE have just dished up.

I'll stop my rant there. I predicted a Zephyr rework after the new open world area given the hand-wavy attitude the devs had about her on stream. It came out sooner and I honestly wish they had just left it off until November. At least then they could have thought about it more carefully and took more time to evaluate the discussion threads beyond what looks like an aggregate of search post hits containing the words 'Tailwind' or 'Divebomb'.

[Xrkr]

Just pulled Gara out of the foundry and looking at her kit gave me a couple ideas.

1) Enemies within the range of Turbulence gain stacks of Erosion*, which increases vulnerability to damage by 5% per stack.

2) Casting Tornado refreshes the duration of Turbulence. Enemies caught in Tornado gain stacks of Erosion*.

 

*Doesn't have to be called that. Just the first thing that came to mind.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Xrkr

[Azamagon]

Honestly, I feel her #2 and #3 are ok (although I'd like Air Burst to gather enemies IN towards the centre). Tornado needs a few adjustments, but Tailwind is the one ability that needs to really be discussed and polished the most imo, as it is really clunky right now.

On to some ideas:

Tornado

• Biggest issue imo; No status-procs or crits from your weapons. That just stinks, especially now when the vast majority of weapons got buffs in this regard. Please allow us to crit and proc status against the caught enemies when hitting the Tornado!
• Needs to hold enemies better. You can even shoot enemies OUT of the Tornado...
• Faster tornadoes would be nice.
• Restricted area, as per @Thaylien's suggestion, so they can wander would be nice, but imo not necesary.

Tailwind

There are a bunch of things I dislike about this ability:
1) Animationlock. It's annoying for sure. Getting rid of the animationlock could allow us to handle the insane momentum too (even if I think the momentum-preservation would be better of to be lowered regardless).
2) Divebomb's triggermechanics. It's just as annoying as melee slams; Sometimes you wanna slam with your melee when looking more forward, sometimes you wanna air-melee when looking more downwards. Same goes for Divebomb; Sometimes you wanna Divebomb when looking more forward, sometimes you wanna Tailwind when looking more downwards. So a better control-system (both for Divebomb and melee) would be in order.
3) Hover's mechanics. Only triggerable from the ground. It looks you for far too long (and is tedious to get out from). Hard to gauge the height you'll hover at. It's simply poor in regards to its control.
4) The new augment. It's useless. Not as in "it doesn't do anything", but rather "far too much effort to make it work". That, plus that Tailwind (Divebomb-portion aside) is simply not an ability I can see having any real potential for damage, so I dunno what DE were thinking when they revamped this one.

Something I DON'T mind is the loss of the straight-up launch when casting on the ground. It somehow fits my playstyle better *shrugs* That's biased, I know, but I don't mind having it as a grounded holdcast (but I completely disagree with the lenghtyness of the cast + the animationlock for it)

So, those are the issues I have. To solve all of those, I have some ideas:

• Tailwind - Tapcast, anywhere -> Burst forward where you aim, like now. No longer animationlocks you, allowing you to interrupt it with stuff like rolling and bulletjumping.
• Tailwind - Holdcast, on the ground -> Launches you upward, like now. Casttime VASTLY reduced, no longer animationlocks you during the casttime (i.e. you can move meanwhile). No longer puts you in the Hover mode (more to that on the next point!).
  ALTERNATIVELY, how about just baking the straight-up-launch as part of her regular jump? Meaning; Holding jump simply lets you extend the height of her jump (giving you control how far up you wanna go), with a max limit of course. Note; I don't mean it as a charge-up, but rather that her jump just gets continuously higher while you hold down the button during the jump.
  Confession: I've actually tried to do this (holding the jump-button longer to jump higher) when I play Zephyr, simply because it felt intuitive to me somehow (either it was intuitive, or I'm simply just that derpy! xD)
• Tailwind - Holdcast, in the air (or if kept pressed down from a grounded holdcast) -> QUICKLY stops Zephyr's momentum to a complete halt, then puts her in a Hover mode for as long as you hold the button down (this causes a mild energydrain, like 2/second, which DOESN'T stop energyregen mechanics like EV/Energizing Dash etc). Letting go of the button immediately stop the Hover-mode.
  Also, pressing JUMP while in Hover-mode triggers Divebomb (now castable with quite a lot of angle). Further, for as long as you are in the Hover-mode, you'll faintly see where your Divebomb's area of effect will be, this indicator would glow much stronger while charging up the Divebomb.
• Divebomb - Damage now Finisher-type, and scales much better with height. Radius doubled, and scales a bit more (capped at a 50% bonus), depending on the height you drop from. Guaranteed knockdown would be great too.
• Augment change (quick brainstorm-recplacement) - Crippling Winds: Enemies struck by Tailwind or Divebomb are slowed down by X% for Y duration. Divebomb's slowdown potency and duration is increaseable by up to Z%, depending on the height of the Divebomb.

With that you gain TONS of control over Tailwind and Divebomb: If you want, you can Tailwind straight down, you can Divebomb quite far forward, you can halt your momentum and/or keep hovering at ANY time. Only problem I see is that Divebomb would require a bit more input, but I think the additions to its effects would make it worthwhile.

I honestly think this would be as close to a "perfected" Tailwind-rework I can think of myself, but I bet someone will disagreed :P *shrugs*

[nulloperations]

Love the rework, but can see the point you're making on various abilities. I just wish the resetting ceilings on outdoor tilesets were reworked. I do like using the hover and I'm already getting tired of being reset every time I want to get into my sniper perch on an older tile.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, nulloperations said:

Love the rework, but can see the point you're making on various abilities. I just wish the resetting ceilings on outdoor tilesets were reworked. I do like using the hover and I'm already getting tired of being reset every time I want to get into my sniper perch on an older tile.

It doesn't seem to matter, if you have a good Duration for Tailwind and Tornado, how long you charge for, some tiles just aren't made for this ability. Meanwhile on the Landscape section of the game (which is about to get a second one soon), it's a brilliant function that just needs a little UI tweak and the ability to trigger it while you're in the air or moving instead of sitting still on the ground like a numpty.

[Caelward]

Perhaps if the charge up was changed to 'holding 1 during a portion of the jump'.

Set it back so just tapping 1 will launch you into the air, but if you actually hold 1 for at least half of the jump, when you let go Zephyr hovers in place. Perhaps we could get some of the best of both worlds.

Players who don't want to stop for the charge (like me) would still have the old launch we never wanted to lose.

Players who like the Hover just hold the 1 key for a slightly different period of time, but are still allowed to stop and hover as they desire.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Set it back so just tapping 1 will launch you into the air, but if you actually hold 1 for at least half of the jump, when you let go Zephyr hovers in place. Perhaps we could get some of the best of both worlds.

That was kind of what I was going for ^^

[Azamagon]

4 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Perhaps if the charge up was changed to 'holding 1 during a portion of the jump'.

Set it back so just tapping 1 will launch you into the air, but if you actually hold 1 for at least half of the jump, when you let go Zephyr hovers in place. Perhaps we could get some of the best of both worlds.

Players who don't want to stop for the charge (like me) would still have the old launch we never wanted to lose.

Players who like the Hover just hold the 1 key for a slightly different period of time, but are still allowed to stop and hover as they desire.

 

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

That was kind of what I was going for ^^

Check my Tailwind-ideas slightly further up. What do you think of those suggestions?

[Caelward]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

That was kind of what I was going for ^^

Except... if they do it that way, so we can hold 1 over the portion of tailwind, they could also make it so we can use it at... any time.

Not just when we initially jump into the air. I could get behind Hover much more easily if I could Tailwind into it after dashing across the sky...

 

Edit: Hmm, looking at this thread first thing in the morning has made me lazy. I'm losing the recent thread of ideas. Sorry guys.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Caelward

[ObviousLee]

I still maintain the change I've put forth offers the greatest diversity of play and allows for her augment to actually be useful. Target fixation has the potential to be a very powerful augment, but the amount of time you'd need to be in the air to utilize it far exceeds anything a mere burst speed tailwind will be able to allow for. 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

if u rly have to use tailwind indoor there s one magic word -range

[ObviousLee]

10 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

if u rly have to use tailwind indoor there s one magic word -range

Range doesn't effect tailwind. Duration does. Negative range also reduces the effectiveness of turbulence. 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb ObviousLee:

Range doesn't effect tailwind. Duration does. Negative range also reduces the effectiveness of turbulence. 

yes u r right duration effects the distance u can travel with tailwind so negative duration will give u -range 

ability range the thing u r talking about is only effecting the explosion range when slamming into the ground and the range for "touching" units while traveling through air (important for the augment if u go for it), maybe remove duration from tailwind and make it effected by ability range? but i m sure there r other issues with this

but i also agree that sticking to a wall for 2s or more and waiting for the tailwind animation to end is kinda dumb and should be adressed

 

i also think that her 4 should be buffed regarding cc/ effecting units so either increase the range and speed at which units r drawn into the tornado so u can del dmg to them by hitting the tornado or make it so that hitting tornados deals aoe dmg around the tornado

 

edit:

maybe do a wall slam when running into a wall like when aiming at ground could hlp too? also wanna mention titania 4 here which is also rly clunky indoors not to mention the lack of item pick up utility

Edited February 15, 2018 by Lord_Yawgmoth

[ObviousLee]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

yes u r right duration effects the distance u can travel with tailwind so negative duration will give u -range 

ability range the thing u r talking about is only effecting the explosion range when slamming into the ground and the range for "touching" units while traveling through air (important for the augment if u go for it), maybe remove duration from tailwind and make it effected by ability range? but i m sure there r other issues with this

but i also agree that sticking to a wall for 2s or more and waiting for the tailwind animation to end is kinda dumb and should be adressed

 

i also think that her 4 should be buffed regarding cc/ effecting units so either increase the range and speed at which units r drawn into the tornado so u can del dmg to them by hitting the tornado or make it so that hitting tornados deals aoe dmg around the tornado

 

edit:

maybe do a wall slam when running into a wall like when aiming at ground could hlp too? also wanna mention titania 4 here which is also rly clunky indoors not to mention the lack of item pick up utility

That's pretty much my solution to tailwind in a nutshell. I'm thinking tailwind should be tied to strength to capitalize on the damage output increase my suggestion would bring about. I'm hoping you read my first post on this thread, as it really fleshes out my suggestion. 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 1 Minute schrieb ObviousLee:

That's pretty much my solution to tailwind in a nutshell. I'm thinking tailwind should be tied to strength to capitalize on the damage output increase my suggestion would bring about. I'm hoping you read my first post on this thread, as it really fleshes out my suggestion. 

yeah i read over it but there was too  much i disagreed with 

but it basically comes down to proper use of abilites and i dont think tailwind was meant for indoor use and the rework reflects this properly, just be happy u still get bonus speed from turbulence giving u enough speed indoors actually..

 

i also prefer frames having some sort of niche role and zephyr feels basically made for plains of eidolon, sadly her kit doesnt seem of much use in teralyst and co hunt besides gathering lures and draining shields with ur operator...

[ObviousLee]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

yeah i read over it but there was too  much i disagreed with 

but it basically comes down to proper use of abilites and i dont think tailwind was meant for indoor use and the rework reflects this properly, just be happy u still get bonus speed from turbulence giving u enough speed indoors actually..

 

i also prefer frames having some sort of niche role and zephyr feels basically made for plains of eidolon, sadly her kit doesnt seem of much use in teralyst and co hunt besides gathering lures and draining shields with ur operator...

My question is simple. In what way did my suggestion not remedy and streamline her issues regarding tailwind. What about allowing for multiple functions to the same end is disagreeable? 

Also, I will not be satisfied with a half measure. 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

Am 10.2.2018 um 23:29 schrieb Thaylien:

Now, after extensive testing on different tile sets, let's look at the existing problems with these abilities as they now stand.

1. Tailwind.

This ability now gets the player jammed into the scenery on any tile set in the game. Before the lack of momentum preservation was a bit of a boon in confined spaces, it meant that once the ability finished you were not stuck in a corner of the map.

Now, with a bit of duration on it, not only are you stuck in a corner of the map, it's a corner you've never seen before and didn't really ever want to see, because the momentum has flung you 100m to the side across the wall. See example a. and b.:

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a. I have no idea where this is...

b. I know where this is, I ended up here from the other side of the tile instead of the door that's 200m diagonally down and to the right.

With the animation still locked and the momentum preserved, more than 30% Duration appears to be simply too much for the vast majority of the game.

In fairness, Tailwind is now the most amazing movement cast in the game for the Plains of Eidolon, which is where I'm sure DE did most of their testing. I can now travel from one end to the other in a very short space of time and it's quite enjoyable when hunting for Wisps.

The Dive Bomb portion of this is angle-detection and happens whenever you're looking down. I've had mixed results. Often I've found myself grinding my gilded beak into the dirt for a good 50m because of a wrong-angled cast, or other times when I thought I was going to be zipping down the side of a hill I'm greeted with a face-plant because a rock that's sticking up from the side makes my Tailwind into a Dive Bomb.

The range has not been improved, and the effectiveness of the knock-down hasn't either. Since the base damage is a little higher I've managed to build a Strength version that can, in fact, kill level 30-40 grineer. It's been fun, when I can get it to work. But without that knock-down effectiveness, we are in exactly the same place we were with the previous incarnation of it; in short, there's no reason to cast this over Air Burst, making it a nearly obsolete function.

I say nearly, because it's not altogether obsolete, it does get you down quickly when you need to, but it is neither precise nor reliable in doing so. The view's nice though:

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The hover is another one I have issue with. It works on the Plains, but does not work in the rest of the game. Whenever you charge it up for too long, just a half second even, you get stuck to the ceiling, or worse you get reset by the skybox limits. The camera is stuck behind you, meaning all you see when you're hovering against the ceiling is this: 

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At best

At worst

This is not a fun function to use in anywhere except the Plains of Eidolon. It really isn't fun and doesn't serve a purpose when the height of your tiles is so low. I can count on my hands the number of places that this function doesn't cause this camera problem.

In balance, the ability has been improved, but not in a way that will help it be better in anything other than the Landscapes. I'm sure that, once DE has put one of these on every planet possible, then this form of Tailwind will be exceptionally desirable. As it stands, 99% of the rest of the game will find it clunky and regret casting it.

i already agreed about the animation issue with walls and that it has to be adressed

anyway a duration zephyrs tailwind is for outdoors only, the whole mechanic of it doesnt make sense for being used indoors in the first place, so just accept it as her new niche

though i have to question the augment...paired with that unreasonably low air range effect, i d rather change it to dmg based on the traveled distance before hitting the ground instead of having to fly near/ through enemies with a casterframe like zephyr

i could also agree about an indicator for the landing point and maybe make it possible to slightly adjust target when traveling down wards

and there it ends because most of ur arguments r based on either inexperience with the new mechanic (this also regards the aim mechanic, there might also be problems with it but when i used it on plains it worked kinda decently the low effect range was a bit underwhelming but  paired with other frames who can clutch enemies together for u to dive into them...hehe...)

or arguments about how an outdoor ability cant be used properly indoors

 

 

[ObviousLee]

37 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

i already agreed about the animation issue with walls and that it has to be adressed

anyway a duration zephyrs tailwind is for outdoors only, the whole mechanic of it doesnt make sense for being used indoors in the first place, so just accept it as her new niche

though i have to question the augment...paired with that unreasonably low air range effect, i d rather change it to dmg based on the traveled distance before hitting the ground instead of having to fly near/ through enemies with a casterframe like zephyr

i could also agree about an indicator for the landing point and maybe make it possible to slightly adjust target when traveling down wards

and there it ends because most of ur arguments r based on either inexperience with the new mechanic (this also regards the aim mechanic, there might also be problems with it but when i used it on plains it worked kinda decently the low effect range was a bit underwhelming but  paired with other frames who can clutch enemies together for u to dive into them...hehe...)

or arguments about how an outdoor ability cant be used properly indoors

 

 

Not sure if you're directing the op's post at me as a response, but I'll treat it as if you were. 

If I'm wrong by all means correct me. 

Problem number one: every ability should be usable regardless of the environment. Tailwind is an exception in that it gets severely hampered when there's no justifiable reason behind it. 

Problem two: no ability should only be viable in one percent of a game. 

Problem three: I've more time played, more affinity on the frame in question, and more time played on the frame in question(zephyr accounts for 65% of my 1800+ hours played) so let's not act like I've no clue what I'm talking about. 

Now please answer my question: what about my suggestion has not addressed and remedied her issues with tailwind? 

Edited February 15, 2018 by ObviousLee

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb ObviousLee:

Not sure if you're directing the op's main post at me as a response, but I'll treat it as if you were. 

If I'm wrong by all means correct me. 

Problem number one: every ability should be usable regardless of the environment. Tailwind is an exception in that it gets severely hampered when there's no justifiable reason behind it. 

Problem two: no ability should only be viable in one percent of a game. 

Problem three, I've more time played, more affinity on the frame in question, and more time played on the frame in question(zephyr accounts for 65% of my 1800+ hours played) so let's not act like I've no clue what I'm talking about. 

Now please answer my question: what about my suggestion has not addressed and remedied her issues with tailwind? 

uhm seems i mixed something up...sry, seems i m quite tired already...

 

anyway abilities r there to be used ofc, but i disagree about the part regardless of environment

look at frosts frost globe if u use it every where over the map it will at some time rly get annoying if u or ur teammates suddenly cant shoot at the enemy anymore cause the wall blocks off ur bullets

that s also one of the reason limbo rift and his bubble r so disliked in the wrong hands, isnt it?

that s why i believe tailwind simply shouldnt be used indoors in most cases and  got lots of improvement for outdoor usage and we even got a new compensation skill as 2

 

problem two is a wrong pov this should be regarding the frame as a whole and not just its abilities and zephyr as whole can still be played well even without  her 1

(turbulence and arca plasmor or tigris will usually solve any problem besides spy missions)

just look at other frames and how often u only use half their kit or even only 1 ability because the rest is basically redundant

 

about the third part: i never acted like u dont have any clue alright. this misunderstanding stems from my mistake in thinking ur post before was regarding the ops first statement

PS: gonna answer later again regarding ur own post

 

 

 

[ObviousLee]

11 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

uhm seems i mixed something up...sry, seems i m quite tired already...

 

anyway abilities r there to be used ofc, but i disagree about the part regardless of environment

look at frosts frost globe if u use it every where over the map it will at some time rly get annoying if u or ur teammates suddenly cant shoot at the enemy anymore cause the wall blocks off ur bullets

that s also one of the reason limbo rift and his bubble r so disliked in the wrong hands, isnt it?

that s why i believe tailwind simply shouldnt be used indoors in most cases and  got lots of improvement for outdoor usage and we even got a new compensation skill as 2

 

problem two is a wrong pov this should be regarding the frame as a whole and not just its abilities and zephyr as whole can still be played well even without  her 1

(turbulence and arca plasmor or tigris will usually solve any problem besides spy missions)

just look at other frames and how often u only use half their kit or even only 1 ability because the rest is basically redundant

 

about the third part: i never acted like u dont have any clue alright. this misunderstanding stems from my mistake in thinking ur post before was regarding the ops first statement

PS: gonna answer later again regarding ur own post

 

 

 

No worries, but after you get some rest(seems like you're tired based on what you said) consider this. Yes, lots of snow globes can be a problem, but that's not the argument being made. Snow globe can still function in every tile set, and can be destroyed by Frost's 1 skill. 

That means it's still viable, regardless of the location in relation to tile sets. Tailwind can't be used effectively in 99% of the games content nearly as well as in the planes. My suggestion fixes that. Ignoring a skill that doesn't work effectively due to terrain isn't a fix for that skill. That's literally not how it works. 

There's a viable method that at most(if given the ability to focus solely on the frame and nothing else) would take a week to remedy all the issues in her entire kit. 

And what I've put forth is that easy viable change.