DE's Hema buff became a nerf by mistake.

[DystopianEra]

Hey all, I wanted to talk about the Hema: first of all I know that not many people like infested weapons, and not many use the Hema cause ain’t shiny, ain’t meta and ain’t easy to use properly aswell, it’s not even hitscan; personally I do and spend alot of time trying to optimize them, even using rivens, and even if at first I didn’t notice, the Hema got nerfed as a collateral damage.

Usually I don’t bother posting about nerfs or buffs, the only reason why I’m doing this is because I’m totally sure that DE didn’t intend to, and its rather a nerf coming from some coding priority to readapt to how the weapon's ammo pool works right now.

Copying from patch notes: " No longer requires or consumes Rifle ammo ". Now, the Hema used to have 540 ammos, so not like it had bad ammo economy, however since it requires % HP for each shot reloaded, it makes sense that now it doesn’t use ammos AT ALL.
This is nice thematically, and a sorta of quality of life improvement, however, there’s is a problem with this: ANY -ammo mod/riven is going to decrease its DPS.

The reason behind this is simple, the Hema " No longer requires or consumes Rifle ammo " however in the UI is listed as 60/60 where left are the shots in the magazine, right the ones in the reserve; now when you reload, the ammos in the reserve decrease, then are maxed out again to 60 (Although its bugged, so if you are not the host most of the times they wont regen, and since you cannot pick ammos up it will render the weapon useless for the rest of the mission, but this has been posted by me and another guy on the forum and isn’t the core of this thread),
and personally I think that the Devs' choice to use a 60/60 format rather than a 60/0, 60/infinite, 60/carrots w.e. is to keep track of the ammos reloaded so that the script does know how much health it drains off you, but this also means that since the mag/ammos ratio is 1:1 any -ammo will decrease its DPS cause, for example, if you have a -25% ammo riven as the one i used to test and find out this, you will be 60/44, which means that after emptying a full clip you will find yourself as 44/44 (since it wont let you put more ammos than the ones in the reserve, altho its supposed to be "infinite ammos"), which means 2 things: 1) the -ammo debuff, which is meant to only affect the reserve translates into a -mag negative. 2)a slight buff to the ammo reserve of the Hema, that anyway didn’t have ammo economy problems, accomplished nothing but nerfing it when a -ammo mod strikes in.
Considering that the new reload system is bugged aswell, I think that would be appropriate for DE to find a better way to represent the "infinite ammos" SCRIPT-WISE, I’m fine with it not requiring ammos, but ironically now you get punished to have -ammos on an infinite ammos weapon which I’m pretty sure wasn’t DE intention.
For example, the right slot could be represented by an infinite symbol or whatever placeholder that you want, and the mag counter could be the one used to decide how many shots you need to reload, and therefore how many HP you are going to lose)

For lazy peeps, here’s the TL;DR:
-Hema had an amazing ammo economy, somewhy DE decided to make it having infinite ammos that, however, is shown as 60/60
-For this reason using -ammo mods, on a weapon that DE wanted to buff to have infinite ammos, accomplishes nothing but punishes you since it’s always going to be lower than 60, meaning that you will have to reload at least TWICE in a row to have your mag back to 60 (let’s say you are 60/44 due to the -ammo max, you'll find yourself as 44/44 --> 60/44)
-I'm sure DE didn't want to nerf this, instead their intention was simply the one to give this weapon a bit of love as they did with other weapons
-This problem is bigger of what you may think, considering the only way the Hema can stand its ground is by using a good riven, and many riven rollers/users with a -max ammo stat got hit in the face by this, which, again, I’m sure wasn't DE's intention.
- This fix wouldn’t hurt anyone but simply accomplish what DE wanted to do: buff Hema ammos reserve and get rid of the reloading bug that actually affects it rendering it useless whatever mods you have on it, simply because you will find yourself as 0/0 (ammos dont regen if you are not the host).

Note: this new reloading mechanic affects +mag mods aswell, since the max reserve will still show 60, so for example to fully reload a mag of 80, you will have to reload TWICE too.
 

Edited February 18, 2018 by DystopianEra
Found out it affects +mag mods too.

[GinKenshin]

so it's a nerf only if you have a riven with a specific stat? 

I mean, I get the 60/44 > 44/44 thing, that's probably a bug, but I wouldn't call this a nerf. it's your riven and your choice to use it. 

[Hoangviet1996]

Tbh the hema is pretty strong even without a decent riven. I myself is very fond of the weapon and have a riven with dmg multi and toxin.

[Brodh]

Since -ammo is meant to hit reserves and the change was intended to make reserves irrelevant, I would assume this deserves some special treatment. 

I worry not enough people will make noise for this to actually happen though. 

I wish you luck. 

[DeMonkey]

Did we need that much text for what boils down to,

''- Ammo Max Rivens work undesirably with Hema's change.''

I see what you're saying, and I agree. Reloading the weapon twice to reach a full mag certainly can't have been the intention.

Personally I've never had more fun with the Hema despite it's bugs, Vile Acceleration and Shred with the infinite ammo economy is a hoot.

Edited February 23, 2018 by NovusNova
Removed Quote

[Cicasajt]

I have a riven that reduces mag cap to 36 but i dont feel like it has been nerfed. I dont even understand how u can see this as a nerf. I could shoot up to 36 ammo then had to reload now its the same except i can do this as many times as i want. Before i used to run out of max ammo and couldnt reload, now i can. Its a buff, not a nerf.

[(PSN)Croewe]

Tldr: Put this in the bug section... because it's a bug... not a feature to give feedback on.

Edited February 18, 2018 by (PS4)Chris_Robet

[DystopianEra]

27 minutes ago, Cicasajt said:

I have a riven that reduces mag cap to 36 but i dont feel like it has been nerfed. I dont even understand how u can see this as a nerf. I could shoot up to 36 ammo then had to reload now its the same except i can do this as many times as i want. Before i used to run out of max ammo and couldnt reload, now i can. Its a buff, not a nerf.

im talking about -ammo, not -mag.
if you had +mag, youd have to reload twice aswell cause the max ammo would still be 60, regardless.

[Cicasajt]

6 hours ago, DystopianEra said:

im talking about -ammo, not -mag.
if you had +mag, youd have to reload twice aswell cause the max ammo would still be 60, regardless.

okay i see it now. -ammo max is a pretty bad negative on it then. thats it. a negative is finally really negative

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

My riven got plus dmg mag and negative ammo thought it was amazing before oh well i can still play it till patch drops on ps4 hope it gets fixed 

[Braneman]

I've noticed that the new ammo system also glitches out and will refuse to give back ammo, since the gun can never pick up ammo from anything, not ammo pickups not ammo pizzas it can run out of ammo and be an entirely dead gun for the rest of that mission.

[DystopianEra]

19 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

so it's a nerf only if you have a riven with a specific stat? 

I mean, I get the 60/44 > 44/44 thing, that's probably a bug, but I wouldn't call this a nerf. it's your riven and your choice to use it. 

You would be right if i were talking about other stats, but a -ammo or a +mag riven, that gives me a debuff rather than an advantage on an INFINITE ammos weapon, is a straight unwanted nerf.

Edited February 19, 2018 by DystopianEra

[GinKenshin]

2 hours ago, DystopianEra said:

You would be right if i were talking about other stats, but a -ammo or a +mag riven, that gives me a debuff rather than an advantage on an INFINITE ammos weapon, is a straight unwanted nerf.

Bruh, you’re complaining that a -stat riven is betting your wep, that’s the whole freaking idea 

 

  Your issue is a bug, not a nerf, thus you should report it as such, period. 

[-Trey-]

Finding riven with -zoom might be your best bet. I doubt they are going to do anything with it.

[RealPandemonium]

You should list the unintended behavior in a new thread in this forum: https://forums.warframe.com/forum/11-general/

[kaliazane]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

• Fixed some issues reported with the Hema Ammo mechanic. Essentially increasing Clip size Mods or reducing max Ammo Mods would affect the Ammo pool leading to incomplete clip reloads. Also, the Ammo pool could get into a bad state if you were knocked back/down while in the reload animation.

This didn't do anything for rivens with - max ammo https://streamable.com/pq6s4

I can't recall any other mods that can reduce your max ammo so I assumed that's what this fix was for.

 

[DystopianEra]

5 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

This didn't do anything for rivens with - max ammo https://streamable.com/pq6s4

I can't recall any other mods that can reduce your max ammo so I assumed that's what this fix was for.

 

Can confirm this, just tried with mine after the hype of this post i thought it was fixed, it isn't.
However im very glad that DE actively tried to solve it, and I'm positive they will soon :).
(wanted to post a video, but somehow we have the SAME -ammo amount, so would have just looked like a stale repost)

[kaliazane]

On 23.02.2018 at 6:09 AM, DystopianEra said:

but somehow we have the SAME

Oh yea lol

Also bump for visibility.

[DystopianEra]

Finally fixed, thanks DE.
Bumping so everyone can know it

[kaliazane]

Yep, they completely removed ammo reserve number. Now I won't have to waste time searching for different riven, most people doesn't appreciate Hema which leads to people not rolling rivens for it. So finding different with equal values of dmg and ms could take months.

Bow to the power of Hema  with perfect riven https://streamable.com/xsbs4

[DystopianEra]

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Yep, they completely removed ammo reserve number. Now I won't have to waste time searching for different riven, most people doesn't appreciate Hema which leads to people not rolling rivens for it. So finding different with equal values of dmg and ms could take months.

Bow to the power of Hema  with perfect riven https://streamable.com/xsbs4

Shhhh, hide that inb4 "its meta boi" and disposition gets nerfed xd (not like its too high tho, 3/5)