Ivara's Prowl has been disassembled and no longer has any perks that make it worth the many drawbacks.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

At least from an energy consumption perspective, I see absolutely zero problem. My Ivara requires 8 energy to cast prowl, which then only consumes .25 energy p/second. I agree that walking around is a pain, but I would rather that then triggering an alarm in the sortie because I forgot to pay attention to my invisibility timer. Additionally, I have not been caught once by any of the sensor bars since I got the Infiltrate augment.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

At least from an energy consumption perspective, I see absolutely zero problem. My Ivara requires 8 energy to cast prowl, which then only consumes .25 energy p/second. I agree that walking around is a pain, but I would rather that then triggering an alarm in the sortie because I forgot to pay attention to my invisibility timer. Additionally, I have not been caught once by any of the sensor bars since I got the Infiltrate augment.

And an additional 0.5 energy per second while you're moving.

And an additional 0.64 energy per melee strike.

And an additional 3.2 energy per tick of damage taken.

(Those are all respective to your build by the way. Base values are all higher: the listed 1/s while stationary +2/s while moving, 2 per melee strike and 10 per damage tick)

Gotta love those unlisted extra burdens!

Edited February 19, 2018 by EDYinnit

[p3z1]

10 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

It's more a case of considering the ability from without and within, and identifying the sheer mountain of burdens that it suffers unmatched by just about anything else on any warframe. There's nothing spectacular at all, and it's not even good as a "sum of its parts" because of the myriad deficits you have to operate around.

Okay, let's ignore the negatives of ALL invisibility abilities of Warframes in the game then.
- Loki - Can do anything after the cast. No extra things. Augment turns all weapons silent.
- Ash - Can do anything after the cast. Low duration. Low energy cost. Some CC in the form of stagger. Augment cloaks allies.
- Octavia - Can do anything after meeting the condition. High duration. Everyone can benefit if they know what to do. High skill ceiling.
- Ivara - Limited movement. Can loot. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Augment allows faster movement and going through all sensors (bugged)
- Wukong - Limited movement, but can walk any direction. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Staggers on leaving the cloud.

Ivara and wukong have similar movement restrictions, except Ivara can roll and walljump, but wukong can walk in any direction. Wukong drains more energy. Ivara can use ANY silent gun while invisible. Wukong can't deal damage in any way while cloudwalking. Balance.

10 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Having said that (and in regard to your second statement) Ivara is still my go-to Warframe. But for all her strengths, it doesn't stop it feeling cheap when I lose half my energy supply to the nearest Arc trap or have to make the call between Prowling and losing a ton of extra energy, or trying to survive in the open for a short while just because something left a status effect on me.

Well, being your go-to, you should find other ways to compensate for it (Yes I just said that). Arc traps? She has a built-in Radar mod on her, you can't miss arc traps. Traps hidden behind walls/obstacles, produce invisibility bubbles. Dashwire helps (though eats energy). Ivara is NOT supposed to survive in the open, nor should she be caught in the open without energy. I'm calling user error on that (sorry).

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

And an additional 0.5 energy per second while you're moving.

And an additional 0.64 energy per melee strike.

And an additional 3.2 energy per tick of damage taken.

Gotta love those unlisted extra burdens!

I agree that there are unlisted drawbacks that should be listed, but finishers do not drain energy, you can fairly easily avoid damage, and .5 energy for moving still only brings my energy consumption back up to .75, which is no problem for somebody with energy pizzas and a cap of over 500 energy. Heck, I can perform Sortie level spys solo with nothing more than my Ivara and a single energy pizza. That is how good Prowl is as an ability.

[ljmadruga]

23 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Octavia exists

I omitted octavia because I think you and I can both agree that Octavia is broken and overpowered. She’ll probably be receiving a nerf to end all nerfs.

[MystMan]

If you want to quickly rush from A to B through a mission invisible: use Loki.
If you are not in a hurry and need to do specific tasks in a mission invisible: use Ivara.

Simple.  Pick the right frame for the right job if overall efficiency is such a concern.

I never use melee attacks while prowled, I use a silenced cannon and aim for the head (which has enhanced multiplier thanks to prowl).
"Sacrificing a mod slot for silence makes my weapon weaker"  -> That's why I said cannon.  The top tier powerful weapons in the game remain very OP even with one less damage mod, all the way up to sortie level enemies.  And as long as you keep killing, you'd need some pretty bad RNG to not get any energy drops from enemies for extended periods, honestly it is a rarity for my Ivara to ever run out of energy.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, MystMan said:

you'd need some pretty bad RNG to not get any energy drops from enemies for extended periods, honestly it is a rarity for my Ivara to ever run out of energy.

Exactly! The only time I would run out of energy is if I get unlucky and the game throws Energy Leeches at me.

[(XBOX)MerlyBR]

Look ivara is fine as it is if DE removes its "drawbacks" it will become overpowered

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

I agree that there are unlisted drawbacks that should be listed, but finishers do not drain energy, you can fairly easily avoid damage, and .5 energy for moving still only brings my energy consumption back up to .75, which is no problem for somebody with energy pizzas and a cap of over 500 energy. Heck, I can perform Sortie level spys solo with nothing more than my Ivara and a single energy pizza. That is how good Prowl is as an ability.

Finishers do drain energy (this was noticeable when multi-hit finishers were introduced, and the drain increased because of it ticking extra times per finisher performed, depending on which finisher is used)

Damage is mostly avoidable.. if you're solo. And even then it takes one wayward Eximus, a radiation proc or an unnoticed Arc trap and you're starting to get drained.

Do I even need to address the damnable energy restores again? (But hey, Loki's doing it just the same without the pizza thanks to Siphon, and whatever time you save with Infiltrate you've lost because you're jumprolling at best, not fully parkouring to the vaults like he is)

7 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Okay, let's ignore the negatives of ALL invisibility abilities of Warframes in the game then.
- Loki - Can do anything after the cast. No extra things. Augment turns all weapons silent.
- Ash - Can do anything after the cast. Low duration. Low energy cost. Some CC in the form of stagger. Augment cloaks allies.
- Octavia - Can do anything after meeting the condition. High duration. Everyone can benefit if they know what to do. High skill ceiling.
- Ivara - Limited movement. Can loot. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Augment allows faster movement and going through all sensors (bugged)
- Wukong - Limited movement, but can walk any direction. Low energy cost. High energy upkeep. Staggers on leaving the cloud.

Ivara and wukong have similar movement restrictions, except Ivara can roll and walljump, but wukong can walk in any direction. Wukong drains more energy. Ivara can use ANY silent gun while invisible. Wukong can't deal damage in any way while cloudwalking. Balance.

Well, being your go-to, you should find other ways to compensate for it (Yes I just said that). Arc traps? She has a built-in Radar mod on her, you can't miss arc traps. Traps hidden behind walls/obstacles, produce invisibility bubbles. Dashwire helps (though eats energy). Ivara is NOT supposed to survive in the open, nor should she be caught in the open without energy. I'm calling user error on that (sorry).

I would argue that Cloud Walker is pretty unsatisfying as an ability too, but that aside you overlooked mentioning the actual invulnerability included on that one.

 

I do compensate for it, but I'm also not perfect (sometimes I too am lazy). It's just that Ivara has a special kind of actively hindering yourself by using your own ability that just doesn't gel with the experience I have with everyone else. I mean, if I wanted to slowly, immortally travel through a mission I'd be Hydroid and Undertow from spawn to extraction. _{And, bonus: more reliable, multi-target looting with Pilfering Swarm.}

 

I'm absolutely stunned by how many people are defending Prowl in all its overburdened 'glory'. You can operate around all the burdens, but what other warframe requires you to deal with that much crap just to maintain the baseline functionality of an ability? No, really. Let's make Oberon's Renewal do the multi-target drain for every target in range whether it's actively restoring HP or not, and also slow him to a crawl while he's using it. It's got a decent spread of benefits on top of its primary function, so obviously it has to be absolutely debilitating...

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

Finishers do drain energy (this was noticeable when multi-hit finishers were introduced, and the drain increased because of it ticking extra times per finisher performed, depending on which finisher is used)

Damage is mostly avoidable.. if you're solo. And even then it takes one wayward Eximus, a radiation proc or an unnoticed Arc trap and you're starting to get drained.

Do I even need to address the damnable energy restores again? (But hey, Loki's doing it just the same without the pizza thanks to Siphon, and whatever time you save with Infiltrate you've lost because you're jumprolling at best, not fully parkouring to the vaults like he is)

I have never noticed finishers drain my energy, though maybe I was not paying enough attention. It never really matters for me what enemies come near me, so long as I do not take sustained damage. As for Loki, I love him, but he is more likely to screw up than an Ivara with Infiltrate. He has to be much more careful in being detected.

[ljmadruga]

4 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I'm absolutely stunned by how many people are defending Prowl in all its overburdened 'glory'. You can operate around all the burdens, but what other warframe requires you to deal with that much crap just to maintain the baseline functionality of an ability? No, really. Let's make Oberon's Renewal do the multi-target drain for every target in range whether it's actively restoring HP or not, and also slow him to a crawl while he's using it. It's got a decent spread of benefits on top of its primary function, so obviously it has to be absolutely debilitating...

Even if we go with your statement that prowl’s energy drain is as ridiculously large as you say, Ivara has one of the highest energy pools in the entire game. She can sustain that invisibility with just a little bit of efficiency.

[MystMan]

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I'm absolutely stunned by how many people are defending Prowl

Well, Ivara has been around for 2 years, I've never seen anybody in this entire time until now complain about Prowl.  Could it be possible that only you see burdens where the rest of us see balanced design? Ivara mains players have been doing very well, perhaps they know something you don't in when and how to use her? 

I mean she has the ability to literally remain invisible forever and shoot cloak arrows on teammates and put enemies to sleep and has a high energy pool, with such cheesy big Pros it must come with big Cons to not make her an OP stealth frame. All her Pros are anything but "baseline functionality".

[TheLexiConArtist]

29 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:

Even if we go with your statement that prowl’s energy drain is as ridiculously large as you say, Ivara has one of the highest energy pools in the entire game. She can sustain that invisibility with just a little bit of efficiency.

It only gets truly ridiculous in certain situations.. but it's still unnecessary to have those extra drains at all. I think Wukong is the only other warframe with any ancillary drain mechanic (based on distance) for their invisibility... and I said before, that one is pretty sad too. But Ivara's not only suffering that. Actively disincentivised from melee usage. Actively hindered additionally by taking damage which.. you know, necessitates that you've taken damage, right? Strongly invis-reliant warframes aren't generally tanks.. The punishment for getting hit is that it hurts more because you can't take as many!

Add to that those certain situations where it is ridiculous - rapid, insignificant ticks of damage, or lingering status - and it all adds up.

 

What's even worse is that both of Ivara's augments so far are painfully mediocre too.

The movement speed from Infiltrate, should have been baked in as part of easing the needless burdens on the ability instead; the security bypass is just.. whatever. If you have Ivara you probably know your way around the vaults enough already that it's not giving you much.

And then there's the Navigator augment. Which. Exists, I suppose. In theory. Certainly not in build.

12 minutes ago, MystMan said:

Well, Ivara has been around for 2 years, I've never seen anybody in this entire time until now complain about Prowl.  Could it be possible that only you see burdens where the rest of us see balanced design? Ivara mains players have been doing very well, perhaps they know something you don't in when and how to use her? 

I mean she has the ability to literally remain invisible forever and shoot cloak arrows on teammates and put enemies to sleep and has a high energy pool, with such cheesy big Pros it must come with big Cons to not make her an OP stealth frame. All her Pros are anything but "baseline functionality".

I haven't personally, physically seen gravity, but i'm yet to high-five the moon.

Judging by the rest of the offhand comments in the thread it seems like most people are content to tiptoe around the problem and just focus on putting out the fires once they start. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't listen to someone if they finally suggest that, to extend the fire analogy, maybe smoking isn't a good idea if you're in a room littered with flammable, easily kindled material.

Maybe others have raised the issue, gotten a similar stone wall of player response, and just aren't tenacious enough to keep pushing to the point where you would've noticed the threads.

 

Remember, I'm not saying totally remove literally all the drawbacks and keep all the benefits. I'm saying that there are too many drawbacks right now that work counter to everything you actually want to use the ability for, which results in an ability that can still be functional but has problems delivering on the fun part.

Edited February 19, 2018 by EDYinnit

[p3z1]

35 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I'm absolutely stunned by how many people are defending Prowl in all its overburdened 'glory'. You can operate around all the burdens, but what other warframe requires you to deal with that much crap just to maintain the baseline functionality of an ability? No, really. Let's make Oberon's Renewal do the multi-target drain for every target in range whether it's actively restoring HP or not, and also slow him to a crawl while he's using it. It's got a decent spread of benefits on top of its primary function, so obviously it has to be absolutely debilitating...

If Prowl was Ivara's only ability, then I'd argue for a buff.

Let's go back to Wukong's cloudwalker and compare "dealing with all that crap," because they both have horrendous drains. Rather, compare both of these guys.
Wukong
+ Invulnerable
+ Staggers on exit
- Drain per meter traveled
- Unable to deal damage in any way
- Stuck to walking/speed
- Slow cast time
- Low energy pool on Wukong
- Toggle drain
- Cannot use skills
- Requires external support to trigger syndicate effects

Ivara
+ Loots
+ Can proc syndicate effects with weapons by self
+ Can hit things
+ High energy pool
+ Can do some maneuvers like rolling
+ Can use other skills
+ Headshot buff
- Drain per meter traveled
- Drain energy on receiving damage
- Drain energy on attacks
- Stuck to walking
- Toggle drain

Now, who has the more crap to deal with?

46 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I do compensate for it, but I'm also not perfect (sometimes I too am lazy). It's just that Ivara has a special kind of actively hindering yourself by using your own ability that just doesn't gel with the experience I have with everyone else. I mean, if I wanted to slowly, immortally travel through a mission I'd be Hydroid and Undertow from spawn to extraction. _{And, bonus: more reliable, multi-target looting with Pilfering Swarm.}

Nah, human error. These things happen. Immortal? Try Assimilate Nyx or Inaros pocket-sanding

[Bouldershoulder]

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

If you have Ivara you probably know your way around the vaults enough already that it's not giving you much.

I would say the same about Loki, yet most fails of sortie spy on my memory were caused by overbold Lokis who thought they got a god-of-stealth-frame.

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Remember, I'm not saying totally remove literally all the drawbacks and keep all the benefits. I'm saying that there are too many drawbacks

With this I agree. The worst thing in my opinion is loosing all energy in a second due to coming close to a shock eximus, or the electric traps - you either loose energy from damage, alert everithing around by destroying the trap, or reveal yourself to preserve energy. I hate these two things. I could live with other drawbacks .

Edited February 19, 2018 by Bouldershoulder

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, Bouldershoulder said:

I would say the same about Loki, yet most fails of sortie spy on my memory were caused by overbold Lokis who thought they got a god-of-stealth-frame.

This! I literally am just saying that it is better safe than sorry.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

If Prowl was Ivara's only ability, then I'd argue for a buff.Let's go back to Wukong's cloudwalker and compare "dealing with all that crap," because they both have horrendous drains. Rather, compare both of these guys.

Spoiler

 

Wukong
+ Invulnerable
+ Staggers on exit
- Drain per meter traveled
- Unable to deal damage in any way
- Stuck to walking/speed
- Slow cast time
- Low energy pool on Wukong
- Toggle drain
- Cannot use skills
- Requires external support to trigger syndicate effects

Ivara
+ Loots
+ Can proc syndicate effects with weapons by self
+ Can hit things
+ High energy pool
+ Can do some maneuvers like rolling
+ Can use other skills
+ Headshot buff
- Drain per meter traveled
- Drain energy on receiving damage
- Drain energy on attacks
- Stuck to walking
- Toggle drain

 

Now, who has the more crap to deal with?

You're kind of double-dipping to inflate the difference with a few of those, to be fair. "can hit things" is not a benefit gained by Prowl, "cannot hit things" is a drawback experienced in Cloud Walker. Likewise syndicate proc triggers. A deficit in cloud walker, but no specific benefit gained in prowl.
Revised:

Spoiler

Wukong
+ Invulnerable
+ Staggers on exit
+ Travels in any direction
- Drain per meter traveled
- Unable to deal damage in any way
- Stuck to walking/speed
- Slow cast time
- Low energy pool on Wukong
- Toggle drain
- Cannot use skills
- Requires external support to trigger syndicate effects

Ivara
+ Loots (limited)
+ High energy pool
+ Headshot buff
- Drain per meter traveled
- Drain energy on receiving damage
- Drain energy on attacks
- Slowed movement
- Cannot parkour except jump and roll
- Toggle drain
- Exposed if attacking unsilenced

 

Not identical but quite a bit closer. Also I agreed that both are unsatisfying. I wouldn't wander over and post on a "make Cloud Walker better please" thread telling them that it was fine, but this is not that thread.

[p3z1]

4 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

You're kind of double-dipping to inflate the difference with a few of those, to be fair. "can hit things" is not a benefit gained by Prowl, "cannot hit things" is a drawback experienced in Cloud Walker. Likewise syndicate proc triggers. A deficit in cloud walker, but no specific benefit gained in prowl.

Touche.

Just saying that Prowl should have its downsides or else everyone would go and stick to Prowl-ing. As much as there's a lot of negatives on it, it's to balance out the positives you can get. I mean, let's go back to the loki comparison. Loki's invisibility is plain bland. Press 2, that's it, no additional benefit. Ivara's 3 has its benefits and downsides. Maybe the devs wanted us to use Ivara's Prowl in conjunction with a not melee weapon (maybe a bow) because it's her theme. See that there's no reduction in shooting (unsilenced is a different story). See that headshot multiplier, that means they want you to hit heads as well, navigator helps with that. Arrows -> Navigator. One can pass through a clean room. Energy drain on damage means she's not supposed to be at the frontline or anywhere near it.

All I'm pointing out is Ivara's prowl has all those problems because it acts as a limit on what she(?) can do. Remove one of those, and it might upset balance.
- remove drain on damage - Ballsy play ignoring position. Quick thinking might become a norm and double down on energy drain when in low health.
- remove drain on moving - Perma-on Prowl.
- remove drain on melee - Stealth multipliers spam. Would not be a problem if Prowl didn't have other benefits.
- allow mobility - Massive energy drain, and can catch unmindful players unawares. Faster, more efficient looting, turns to meta = nerfed.

- toggle to duration-based - Maybe?

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Touche.

Just saying that Prowl should have its downsides or else everyone would go and stick to Prowl-ing. As much as there's a lot of negatives on it, it's to balance out the positives you can get.

All I'm pointing out is Ivara's prowl has all those problems because it acts as a limit on what she(?) can do. Remove one of those, and it might upset balance.
- remove drain on damage - Ballsy play ignoring position. Quick thinking might become a norm and double down on energy drain when in low health.
- remove drain on moving - Perma-on Prowl.
- remove drain on melee - Stealth multipliers spam. Would not be a problem if Prowl didn't have other benefits.
- allow mobility - Massive energy drain, and can catch unmindful players unawares. Faster, more efficient looting, turns to meta = nerfed.

- toggle to duration-based - Maybe?

I can stomach some downsides but having them every which way you turn like it is right now, I'm simply arguing is excessive, especially after various direct and indirect nerfs received to the beneficial functions of the ability.

In much the same way as I observed in the comparison, the drawbacks also double dip in many ways. Let's take the three additional drains for example:

• Drain on Damage - Ivara is far from tanky. Also, the pickpocket function promotes being closer to enemies. Therefore, the skill is antisynergetic with itself, and the punishment for poor positioning exists without draining energy (getting hit is more risky than it is for a facetank frame).
• Drain on Moving - Ivara has reduced movement options in Prowl, therefore the drain on moving is a double disincentive. Slowness also means you're moving for longer, therefore more of this drain time is accumulated. Unlike Cloud Walker, it's binary based on movement, not scaling based on distance (I think you misintepreted it as such given the 'allow mobility' bulletpoint)
• Drain on Melee - Poor mobility limits the viability of melee combat. Antisynergetic with Sleep Arrows, which should incentivise finishers but these trigger the additional drain (sometimes multiple instances per finisher). Also cannot slide attack.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

I can stomach some downsides but having them every which way you turn like it is right now, I'm simply arguing is excessive, especially after various direct and indirect nerfs received to the beneficial functions of the ability.

In much the same way as I observed in the comparison, the drawbacks also double dip in many ways. Let's take the three additional drains for example:

• Drain on Damage - Ivara is far from tanky. Also, the pickpocket function promotes being closer to enemies. Therefore, the skill is antisynergetic with itself, and the punishment for poor positioning exists without draining energy (getting hit is more risky than it is for a facetank frame).
• Drain on Moving - Ivara has reduced movement options in Prowl, therefore the drain on moving is a double disincentive. Slowness also means you're moving for longer, therefore more of this drain time is accumulated. Unlike Cloud Walker, it's binary based on movement, not scaling based on distance (I think you misintepreted it as such given the 'allow mobility' bulletpoint)
• Drain on Melee - Poor mobility limits the viability of melee combat. Antisynergetic with Sleep Arrows, which should incentivise finishers but these trigger the additional drain (sometimes multiple instances per finisher). Also cannot slide attack.

Almost every last thing you mentioned can be made a nonfactor by just having efficiency of 160% or range at 100% or higher.  Another is using the tools she already provides to not get caught in BS situations with Arc Traps in the first place.  I know all of this for a fact. 

This fine Tenno below seems to have the gotten to the meat of the topic.  

2 hours ago, MystMan said:

Well, Ivara has been around for 2 years, I've never seen anybody in this entire time until now complain about Prowl.  Could it be possible that only you see burdens where the rest of us see balanced design? Ivara mains players have been doing very well, perhaps they know something you don't in when and how to use her? 

I mean she has the ability to literally remain invisible forever and shoot cloak arrows on teammates and put enemies to sleep and has a high energy pool, with such cheesy big Pros it must come with big Cons to not make her an OP stealth frame. All her Pros are anything but "baseline functionality".

Now for any who may doubt my credentials to comment on this topic.  I present to you all this.

 

Now having said that.  I can honestly say that Ivara is a great example of a very well thought out and balanced frame.  Changing her with any type of buff would send her into the obvious over powered category that some already believe she's already in.  She's one of the few frames that can stack her own bonuses onto her other bonuses all by herself without any other frames to help.  Think about that last one for a bit.     

Heck, There are still people that don't realize that she can parkour while in Prowl.  That's wall run, jump, double jump, Aim Glide, and roll all without leaving Prowl.  Only sprinting, sliding, and bullet jumping make her leave it.  

A lot have been complaining about the change to Prowl's Steal.  I have always considered Prowl's Steal to be just another additional perk and not an absolutely needed ability.  

Edited February 19, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now having said that.  I can honestly say that Ivara is a great example of a very well thought out and balanced frame.  Changing her with any type of buff would send her into the obvious over powered category that some already believe she's already in.  She's one of the few frames that can stack her own bonuses onto her other bonuses all by herself without any other frames to help.  Think about that last one for a bit.     

40% better headshots and a lazy stealing mechanic that requires you to linger around and not kill the designate target is not worth that laundry list of obstacles you have to work around to access the whole complement.

And without those additional perks, you compare the primary function of invisibility itself and.. well, there's nothing beneficially separating it from the other stealthies. However you excuse and quantify it (I can just as easily alleviate Loki's vulnerability window if I throw on casting speed mods, too), whatever detriments are left over after you've budgeted for the novelty pickpocketing and just reasonably decent headshot advantage are detriments that Ivara needs to deal with in order to access the same invisibility effect other frames can for less.

 

Sadly I've been playing less of Ivara lately since I maxed out the focus tree I have her lensed for, and I can't boast that use percentage because it's based on affinity gain and I have more efficient things for grunt work that accumulates more by sheer attrition. But when there's something new, I go Ivara. When there's something tough, usually, I go Ivara.

I feel sorry for your Stockholm syndrome that reasons that she needs every last obstacle in her path as some sort of counterbalance.

You could probably take off every last one of those detriments and she still wouldn't be as 'OP' as Octavia, you know.

 

Besides, if those burdens are as nonfactors as you say, maybe that in itself signifies that they're just extra afterthoughts that shouldn't have been tacked on in the first place.

[DatDarkOne]

LOL.  Stockholm syndrome.  LMAO.  

I will say this because for some reason it's such a simple concept that people seem to over look it.  Here goes.  If you don't like the frame, then don't use the frame.  If you like Loki more, then use Loki.  If you like Octavia more, then use her.  

I just don't have the problems you seem to have.  Remember, you aren't forced to do or use any one thing in Warframe.   I myself like her just as she is.  Everything about her fits how I like to play.  Some of the things you listed as drawbacks, I would have listed them as pros.  So there is this nice little thing of personal perception.   

[robbybe01234]

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

40% better headshots and a lazy stealing mechanic that requires you to linger around and not kill the designate target is not worth that laundry list of obstacles you have to work around to access the whole complement.

And without those additional perks, you compare the primary function of invisibility itself and.. well, there's nothing beneficially separating it from the other stealthies. However you excuse and quantify it (I can just as easily alleviate Loki's vulnerability window if I throw on casting speed mods, too), whatever detriments are left over after you've budgeted for the novelty pickpocketing and just reasonably decent headshot advantage are detriments that Ivara needs to deal with in order to access the same invisibility effect other frames can for less.

 

Sadly I've been playing less of Ivara lately since I maxed out the focus tree I have her lensed for, and I can't boast that use percentage because it's based on affinity gain and I have more efficient things for grunt work that accumulates more by sheer attrition. But when there's something new, I go Ivara. When there's something tough, usually, I go Ivara.

I feel sorry for your Stockholm syndrome that reasons that she needs every last obstacle in her path as some sort of counterbalance.

You could probably take off every last one of those detriments and she still wouldn't be as 'OP' as Octavia, you know.

 

Besides, if those burdens are as nonfactors as you say, maybe that in itself signifies that they're just extra afterthoughts that shouldn't have been tacked on in the first place.

So did you make this thread to be convinced that the cons you listed should be there?  Or do you want to convince others that prowl should be changed because of those cons?

It's obvious that no one can convince you that one of the negatives you listed is actually a positive in a vacuum.   How would you expect to make an argument that the energy drain doesn't exist while she is moving?  It does, you know there is no arguing that. 

It's like there's no where to go in this conversation.  You're seeing the ability as overburdened with negatives, I see the ability as balanced with obstacles.  For me, I'll post if the thing has too many obstacles to overcome but for this, those are all easily dealt with and some of those are even personal nitpicks on your part.

And don't put yourself above other people with the whole Stockholm thing.  Who are you anyway?

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

39 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

LOL.  Stockholm syndrome.  LMAO.  

I will say this because for some reason it's such a simple concept that people seem to over look it.  Here goes.  If you don't like the frame, then don't use the frame.  If you like Loki more, then use Loki.  If you like Octavia more, then use her.  

I just don't have the problems you seem to have.  Remember, you aren't forced to do or use any one thing in Warframe.   I myself like her just as she is.  Everything about her fits how I like to play.  Some of the things you listed as drawbacks, I would have listed them as pros.  So there is this nice little thing of personal perception.   

With the exception of the channeled drain vs. duration there is literally nothing in the drawback list that is in any way positive. Hindrances to the player are still hindrances. Additional drain is still more wasting of a resource.

Between your response and @robbybe01234's it sounds like my reference to Stockholm syndrome was not taken as lightly as I had intended it. I apologise if it caused genuine offense.

And for the tenth time, I do like Ivara, but I am also capable of stepping back and assessing things and unlike you, I conclude that, while solvable problems, there are significantly more problems to solve for benefits that are not also significantly greater than alternatives. Why, pray tell, am I not allowed to highlight this discrepancy without being told to play the other warframes instead?

We're both perfectly capable of treating the symptoms. We simply disagree on whether the root cause should be addressed. I say it should.

31 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

So did you make this thread to be convinced that the cons you listed should be there?  Or do you want to convince others that prowl should be changed because of those cons?

It's like there's no where to go in this conversation.  You're seeing the ability as overburdened with negatives, I see the ability as balanced with obstacles.  For me, I'll post if the thing has too many obstacles to overcome but for this, those are all easily dealt with and some of those are even personal nitpicks on your part.

Considering that I detailed the points for and against, made comparisons and drew a conclusion, obviously it's the latter.

 

You can treat terrible energy efficiency on a build by abusing Energy Restores. But you could also change the build to not be so inefficient in the first place.

In much the same way, we can all work with Prowl by stepping lightly on eggshells, operating around its 10 drawbacks like we do now... Or petition that maybe it shouldn't have 10 drawbacks to be worked around in order to use the ability without hindering yourself.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

We're both perfectly capable of treating the symptoms. We simply disagree on whether the root cause should be addressed. I say it should.

I can work with that.