So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[TheRealDestian]

59 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You see this as a good thing?  There's lots of people that have made lots of money gaming the trading systems of lots of games.  That doesn't somehow make them quality experiences.  Games are for entertainment.  Not so some yoball creating bots can make money.

There was no specification on whether or not it's a good idea or a quality experience, but it IS doable (I'd personally pass).

Also, "games for entertainment" kinda goes out the window because of esports... :\

Edited March 11, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said:

There was no specification on whether or not it's a good idea or a quality experience, but it IS doable (I'd personally pass).

Also, "games for entertainment" kinda goes out the window because of esports... :\

Well it's not.  Abusing the trading system to make money generally hurts other players and at the very least hurts the developer.  And no.  Esports is still entertainment.

[Kaminariss]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

You see this as a good thing?  There's lots of people that have made lots of money gaming the trading systems of lots of games.  That doesn't somehow make them quality experiences.  Games are for entertainment.  Not so some yoball creating bots can make money.

 

36 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Well it's not.  Abusing the trading system to make money generally hurts other players and at the very least hurts the developer.  And no.  Esports is still entertainment.

You have NO IDEA how to make money in WoW so why are you sprouting nonsense?

First and foremost, blizzard is fighting furiously against botting so go ahead, use a bot and let me tell you how long will your account last.
Having said that it is not impossible to use bots in WoW, however hard-to-detect-bots will not make you money.

Fully automated bots like honorbuddy are minefield. They work few months tops, then you get ban.
Helper bots like fishing bots, leveling bots or rotation bots (like an aimbot) won't get you money.

To make money comparable to real life job you gotta have some REAL SKILLS.

1. First way is to make boosts on mythic+ dungeons, basically you gotta do pretty hard dungeon designed for 5 people to be hard, with just 4 people.
Or boost on raids but that requires having 19 skilled people, or 18 super skilled people who can make raids with 2 boosted people.

Back in the day when I was playing, M+ dungeon boost was around 300K gold, 75K gold for each member for 20-40 minutes of gameplay + time spent on finding people willing to pay. It was pretty impossible to do more than one boost in 1 hour.
So that would be $14 in gray market (not against law but against blizzard TOS)

Boost on raid costs minimum 1 milion gold, and took similar amount of time (it was just for last boss) 

• Setup 19 pros + one boosted = 50K for each player
• Setup 18 super pros + 2 boosted people = 111K for each player (because each boosted payed 1M+ gold)

My previous guild was never been able to boost 2 people at once. Boosting raids was pretty much limited to one boost per week. So yeah it is time efficient but very limited. Unless 18-19 people would be willing to gear up their alts. Boosting Mythic+ dungeons is not limited but you gotta get keys for them and there are not a lot of people willing to pay for boost.

Boosting for gold is perfectly fine, selling that gold for cash is against TOS.

2. Second way to make money (gold) in time efficient way is to play the market itself. However it requires you to have a vast knowledge about items, their prices, supply, demand, etc. And this is the only way to make pretty much unlimited amount of money without restrictions. The only restriction is the amount of gold you can invest and the amount of time you have. However it will still not give you more than 20$ per hour. And it is pretty much work like real world work at this point.

3. Third way is to level up as many alts as you can, level your followers (for each alt), do campaign quests (for each alt) and send them on missions. It is the way I am using right now. It gets you around 2K gold daily for each alt you have. For 12 alts it is 24k gold per 10 minutes. ~$15-20 per hour.

However it is limited to 12 per server and 50 per account and you gotta level them first, level their folowers. It is enormous amount of time to prepare. If you see this as a "easy way" then go ahead and try it yourself. It took me well over few months to get to this point.

Classes in wow are similar to warframes, I have all classes because I enjoy variety.

None of those activities hurt economy.

And the last way to make money is to use "professions". Crafting or gathering, they won't get you more than 5$ per hour but are easy to "setup". And you are limited by market demand. Crafting requires you to purchase ingredients from AH and make crafted items, gear, gems, enchants, consumables etc. Gathering professions basically means you will be running on some maps and pick up stones, flowers etc.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Kaminariss

[PatternistSlave]

1 minute ago, Kaminariss said:

You have NO IDEA how to make money in WoW so why are you sprouting nonsense?

Because I don't need to know anything about it.  This is money being taken from the developer.  Money that would otherwise be the developers.  That's the reason it's against the TOS.  Yet somehow this translated to being something positive in your warped view.  This isn't even considering the effect it has on other players and the game itself.

[Kaminariss]

Oh wow lol. You know that a very small portion of players sell gold and platinum for real money? You can use gold you acquired to purchase other items from developer, cosmetics, other games (only in wow), so nothing stops you from buying on white market. I only used gray market as time-value reference, to measure how much your time is worth while WORKING in game. If you wanna have white market price (blizzard shop) divide those prices by 2.

[Urabask]

3 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Yes it is, read my statement once again. I am still waiting for proof that they violate the law. (Protip: not violated in the past). From what i see decision of committee was to change rating to mature and they no longer violate law.

Warframe is already rated Mature so no problems here to make tax on AH.
 

Are you serious?  I just posted their decision where they were found to have violated the law.  Having content that is determined to be harmful to minors in a game that is rated 15+ is a violation of South Korean law.

[Kaminariss]

18 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Are you serious?  I just posted their decision where they were found to have violated the law.  Having content that is determined to be harmful to minors in a game that is rated 15+ is a violation of South Korean law.

Read it again. And read my post once again.

[PatternistSlave]

5 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Oh wow lol. You know that a very small portion of players sell gold and platinum for real money? You can use gold you acquired to purchase other items from developer, cosmetics, other games (only in wow), so nothing stops you from buying on white market. I only used gray market as time-value reference, to measure how much your time is worth while WORKING in game. If you wanna have white market price (blizzard shop) divide those prices by 2.

The trading system of WoW was responsible for turning a subscription game into a pay2win game, but let's just ignore that, because look how much money people made off of it like that somehow relates to being more free2play  Time used to hold all the value because that's all there was.  It was devalued immeasurably by the auction house.  How severely people have abused a system should be nothing but a glaring red flag for how damaging it could be.

[NezuHimeSama]

Because it creates a stagnant race-to-the-bottom economy that devalues sought after items. warframe.market already drove prices of many items into the ground, and has also been a source of abuse from players getting their friends together to artificially inflate or deflate prices of items.

[Kaminariss]

21 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Because it creates a stagnant race-to-the-bottom economy that devalues sought after items.

That is the problem of "economy" itself. Neither warframe.market nor the auction house. This game has way to few platinum sinks.

Low amount of weapons (yep it is super low compared to other MMO games), warframes etc. Low amount of cosmetics, premium skins. That is the problem of economy. If not for the riven mods we would be at the very bottom right now.

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

The trading system of WoW was responsible for turning a subscription game into a pay2win game

That is not even possible. You cannot buy decent gear or skills in WoW. If you think that you can acquire gear by buying boosts, think again, RNGesus is here to prevent that. In other words, you would be bankrupt before you got a decent gear. And you cannot be rich in WoW if you are scrub.

That is also a problem of WoW. This game is so much RNG that even a 2 months of farming raids and mythic+ dungeons I could not get best in slot gear.

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

because look how much money people made off of it like that somehow relates to being more free2play. Time used to hold all the value because that's all there was.  It was devalued immeasurably by the auction house.  How severely people have abused a system should be nothing but a glaring red flag for how damaging it could be.

For the love of the god, how long are we gonna keep this bulls*it up? It is only "free" if your time is worthless. AH did not devalue anything! Devaluation is a natural process when items becomes old. How much your old PC is worth right now? And remember how much you paid for it few years earlier? Yeah its just like that.

AH in WoW is the very foundation and pinnacle of the entire economy in game. Red flag? Damaging? NONSENSE.

Without AH wow economy would simply not exist or we would be using some 3rd party website to do all the listings. It is like saying online shopping has killed real world economy while in fact, it did the exact opposite.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Kaminariss

[Aggh]

21 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Read this article once more, again with comprehension.

This is a multicultural forum, english is just a language used here. Just because you are ignorant doesn't mean I need to be too.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/milliard

Your whole "argument" is yet again invalid because time = money, even in "free" to play games. You probably didn't know, but even with wow token EVERYONE is paying for playing with real money. If you can't figure out how it is working then you have no right to make arguments here.

The only thing that differs is the "wage". And it is perfectly fine like it is right now. In warframe you can get at most $2 per hour. And WoW can get to the point of having a decent real world job. Last time i checked $20 per hour is possible. And if you wanna make money while playing game you wanna check EVE Online.

Basically "F"2P games are time inefficient.

We're speaking English, there's one English definition for Billion.  Applying definitions from other languages is pointless because we're not speaking those languages.  Milliard has been redundant for decades.

No, you need to re read it.  Your comprehension has been utter garbage through out the whole damn thread.  You cherry picked one part of the article and ignored the rest of the observations from the committee that don't suit your argument.  Government committees don't submit observations like that for fun, they're often a way for them to tell companies/people to comply with the law without going through the effort of charging them and having to through legal proceedings.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Aggh

[Kaminariss]

1 minute ago, Aggh said:

We're speaking English, there's one English definition for Billion.  Milliard has been redundant for decades.

You forgot that there are many variations of English language, you will decide which one this forum uses? If no, then do not speak like the owner of this forum. Milliard is the only unambiguous word for 1 000 000 000 and it exists in English language.

4 minutes ago, Aggh said:

No, you need to re read it.  Your comprehension has been utter garbage through out the whole damn thread.

No it is your comprehension that hits the rock bottom:

Your quote:
Also, you've only found one example of a game from a company the knowingly violates laws that works remotely the same as how you'd like warframe to :/

My response:
Funny how you imagine things. Give us a proof that they violate the law. Otherewise it is just nonsense.

Your response:
They simply told them instead of taking legal action to give them a chance to fix it.  Which they did.

So do they violate the law or they violated the law in the past and fixed it? That is a pretty damn big difference. And you want to lecture me about English?

Not to mention you ignored that fact that Warframe is already Mature rated.

[Aggh]

22 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

You forgot that there are many variations of English language, you will decide which one this forum uses? If no, then do not speak like the owner of this forum. Milliard is the only unambiguous word for 1 000 000 000 and it exists in English language.

No it is your comprehension that hits the rock bottom:

Your quote:
Also, you've only found one example of a game from a company the knowingly violates laws that works remotely the same as how you'd like warframe to :/

My response:
Funny how you imagine things. Give us a proof that they violate the law. Otherewise it is just nonsense.

Your response:
They simply told them instead of taking legal action to give them a chance to fix it.  Which they did.

So do they violate the law or they violated the law in the past and fixed it? That is a pretty damn big difference. And you want to lecture me about English?

Not to mention you ignored that fact that Warframe is already Mature rated.

The vast majority of English speaking countries use short scale, using milliard in normal conversation in English is asinine :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#English-speaking

The comittee told them that the AH worked like RMT.  RMT is illegal in Korea, they subsequently changed it in response to the committee's observation.  It's all in the article you linked.  What's so hard to understand here?

Man, do you have the critical thinking skills of a child or something?  Learn to keep track of the thread of discussion you're taking part in.  Warframe's rating is irrelevant.  You brought up lineage as an example of a company that has a premium currency tax.  Urabask pointed out that companies often get away withs stuff like that and the netmarble has a history of knowingly violating the law.  The fact that they are getting away with a possible violation does not mean that they are not violating the law.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Aggh

[Kaminariss]

6 minutes ago, Aggh said:

What's so hard to understand here?

Dude, you failed at very basics of English, they do not violate the law. End of story. 

7 minutes ago, Aggh said:

The comittee told them that the AH worked like RMT.  RMT is illegal in Korea

I don't need to put any response because you are responding to yourself.

Quote

The committee pointed out that the previous in-game item trading system mimics the cash-Item trading website

So it is not RMT. End of story.

https://www.grac.or.kr/Statistics/Popup/Pop_ReasonInfo.aspx?d55fa51b90b643748e7fa8e0be4757cfa6c813a6a053e8e5ec12581d53453bb0

After translation:

* Simulates game item trading intermediary site - 'Youth harmful medium' - Using game 
'Blue Diamond' There is an exchange system that imposes a fee.

14 minutes ago, Aggh said:

The fact that they are getting away with a possible violation does not mean that they are not violating it.

Do not blacken them without evidence.

[Aggh]

4 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Dude, you failed at very basics of English, they do not violate the law. End of story. 

I don't need to put any response because you are responding to yourself.

So it is not RMT. End of story.

https://www.grac.or.kr/Statistics/Popup/Pop_ReasonInfo.aspx?d55fa51b90b643748e7fa8e0be4757cfa6c813a6a053e8e5ec12581d53453bb0

After translation:

* Simulates game item trading intermediary site - 'Youth harmful medium' - Using game 
'Blue Diamond' There is an exchange system that imposes a fee.

Do not blacken them without evidence.

Cash trading sites are RMT.  They said that it mimics them. Even if we get past that, the  literally changed the rating because it wasn't in compliance with the law for that rating.  And they changed the trading system in response to that.  How do you still not understand this?

[Heckzu]

Why is WoW being used as a point of comparison? Since when did WoW's auction house directly use Battle Net points?

 

If you want to use another game as a comparison, it must have one important similarity to Warframe before it can be considered a valid comparison: the auction / market board must use paid currency for transactions.

I can only recall three instances of online auction / market boards using paid currency: Valve's Steam Marketplace (for TF2, DotA2, CS:GO, etc.), Maplestory, and Diablo III. There may be more, but I am currently unaware of them.

• Steam Marketplace is for paying customers only. You cannot use it if you have not spent real money to purchase steam funds within a certain amount of time. It also has a percentage based tax for every transaction.
• Maplestory MTS (Maple Trading System) was removed because it was prone to exploits and cost Nexon a significant loss in potential revenue. It also had a tax for every transaction.
• Diablo III's auction house you should already know by now. It was removed because it ruined the game.

If auction / market boards that use paid currency for transactions were good for games, then why would they ever have to be removed or restricted to paying players?

[Serdinor_Darkrose]

People really need to be mindful of what they're talking about before they jump on the "we want an AH" train. It's a terrible idea and here's a few reasons:

- Warframe Market is a good example of why an in-game AH will ruin the free economy. Ever since people started using WM prices have plummeted to oblivion because the people who hoarded sets or are desperate for platinum undercut everyone else. Someone who wants quick plat has no reason not to sell cheap. Someone who hoarded lots of items benefits from the fact they can actually sell. The people who have 1-2 vaulted sets cannot afford to cut their prices so low, it just feels wrong seeing a vaulted set go for 60 plat. Now imagine this be in-game as an official AH, that EVERY player can see and have access to. More undercutters, more deflation until items are worth nothing.

- There's nothing to stop big groups of players or clans to abuse the AH. Here's an example: let's say X Prime gets vaulted soon and I'm in charge of a huge clan. We farm sets upon sets earlier, vaulting happens. Then we go on and sell some on the AH undercutting everyone at the same prices, say 40 plat. Suddenly after a while the go-to price for frame X becomes 40. We can keep this up as long as we see people wanting to sell. At this point people start selling at 40 or less as well and item stocks will diminish. Then we start selling at 1k. At this point since we hoarded items, most other players either sold sets seeing how they are not worth much, made ducats or maybe kept them, doesn't matter. The matter is we now have a monopoly of 1k base price. You may be thinking this is too perfect and extreme, but similar stuff can and will happen if we get an AH. People are doing similar stuff on WM right now to control the prices.

- An AH removes any form of interactivity and incentive. Put item on AH, set price, undercut if needed, do whatever you want. Currently without WM people wouldn't be able to abuse the market prices because you need to be present when selling. Not everyone has 10 hours a day to stand still and hope for a seller. Not everyone can convince & bargain with people on a price. There are many variables going on with the current system, while the AH simply makes everything "who can undercut the other".

- Current system also requires from buyers to do a bit of search and use their brain productively. You got "scammed" because you bought Trinity Prime at 2k? Why? The seller offered a price and you took it. If you see an itme in real life and it costs 1 mil, buy it and then see someone else sell it for 500k is this a scam? Assuming it doesn't fall within specific categories, that's just you not caring about your wallet. Warframe has a free market, not bound by set prices and immune to any monopoly. An AH has always been and will be abusable, period. Many games ruined themselves through an AH.

[NezuHimeSama]

4 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

That is the problem of "economy" itself. Neither warframe.market nor the auction house. This game has way to few platinum sinks.

Low amount of weapons (yep it is super low compared to other MMO games), warframes etc. Low amount of cosmetics, premium skins. That is the problem of economy. If not for the riven mods we would be at the very bottom right now.

Before Warframe.market, things actually managed to hold value unless they were severely overfarmed. The added inconvenience of trading did a lot to reduce the race to the bottom effect.

It happens in anything; the more convenient it is to sell something, the more people will sell it and at lower prices, creating more competition in the selling market, and driving prices, and value, down. That's the value of your time spent in this game being driven down by a factor of, in many cases, 5~10, so that you can save a bit of time or have a bit of convenience when buying or selling things.

To make matters worse, it magnifies for cheaper things, creating an artificially steep economy. Why would anyone buy your Streamline for 10pl when someone with less respect for their own time is selling it for 1pl?

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Steam Marketplace is for paying customers only. You cannot use it if you have not spent real money to purchase steam funds within a certain amount of time. It also has a percentage based tax for every transaction.

Theres no time limit in the steam marketplace, as long as you have marketable items you can use it.

If you want to see an example look at TF2 metal trading prices. Once you got yourself the premium you can go and buy stuff for metals forever and once you have something valuable you can put it on the market without limitations.

[ngrazer]

46 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

To make matters worse, it magnifies for cheaper things, creating an artificially steep economy. Why would anyone buy your Streamline for 10pl when someone with less respect for their own time is selling it for 1pl?

Sigh. Because those 1pl Streamlines aren't unlimited are they?

Even now we have both underpriced and overpriced offers. But  there is always a median of common price (which vast majority of goods will use, even when there are under- or overpriced offers available).

[Kaminariss]

3 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

Now imagine this be in-game as an official AH, that EVERY player can see and have access to. More undercutters, more deflation until items are worth nothing.

And it it will be like this even without AH. Everything is going down because items gets old. Whole "economy" hangs on new players and new items. There is no permanent platinum sink, you can buy everything that this game has to offer you need like 4K plat (excluding cosmetics) and this value is getting lower each month. And that is the proper argument against AH - too low amount of items to buy.

 

3 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

People are doing similar stuff on WM right now to control the prices.

Nothing stops you from doing that on trade chat. And as you said, nothing stops you from doing that on warframe.market already. You don't even need to be a part of clan to do such thing. You can simply observe prices before vaulting and start buying out cheap sets, wait for them to become expensive and start selling.

 

3 hours ago, Serdinor_Darkrose said:

- An AH removes any form of interactivity and incentive. Put item on AH, set price, undercut if needed, do whatever you want. Currently without WM people wouldn't be able to abuse the market prices because you need to be present when selling. Not everyone has 10 hours a day to stand still and hope for a seller. Not everyone can convince & bargain with people on a price. There are many variables going on with the current system, while the AH simply makes everything "who can undercut the other".

Tax, limit of concurrent items and maybe a postage fee (which gets returned upon auction ending) are a way to stop people from selling everything at once. And what you said is actually an argument pro AH. It opens up a market for everyone.

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

creating more competition in the selling market, and driving prices, and value, down.

Since when market competition is a bad thing? You know, in real world companies would love to have monopolies on certain items, fortunately for customers there are laws to prevent that.

 

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

To make matters worse, it magnifies for cheaper things, creating an artificially steep economy. Why would anyone buy your Streamline for 10pl when someone with less respect for their own time is selling it for 1pl?

Worse? Streamline is worthless item, selling it for 10p is a scam. Things like that should be costing 1p. Are you suggesting items that most people have in quantities over 20+ without even farming it is worth more?

From what I can see people think that AH will magically make prices go down, but it doesn't work like that. AH will surely eliminate abominations like Streamline for 10p but that is a good thing. As for other items look at L2R, Tera Online systems, you could simply make a minimum price and maximum price per item, For example:

Brown prime part = 5-25p
White prime part = 10-50p
Gold prime part = 30-200p
Warframe Prime = 50-600p
etc.
And all of your problems solved.

[NezuHimeSama]

That wasn't a scam, it's an essential mod that wouldn't always drop easily for new players. It could save them hours of farming for pennies worth of currency. But now that every joe $&*^ and harry has an easy place to post their prices and see what people are offering them for, the race to the bottom drives the price into the dirt, because everyone only needs one of the mod.

This happens with everything in every MMO, and it's why they all have such terrible economies. Warframe's economy was great, and your time was generally worth something for anything that wasn't being overfarmed at that exact time. Now, it's becoming just like any other MMO, where your in game time is worthless garbage. You can spend hours in game to make only 50~100pl, something worth about $2~3. And that's with a good farm.

 

I think it's fine that this game doesn't go down that rabbit hole. Every other MMO did it. We can have this one not do that thing and be fine.

[PatternistSlave]

6 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

That is not even possible

Ah, so people buy gold because of how shiny it is.

6 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

It is only "free" if your time is worthless.

This is a game we're talking about, not a job.  DE isn't paying us to play their game and that you think it somehow makes sense that they should is a good indication of how far out of touch you've been throughout this entire conversation.

[Kaminariss]

16 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

This happens with everything in every MMO

This happens in real world, unfortunately I don't know the word in English. Look at car prices, computer part prices, almost every item that is aging and it is not a consumable becomes cheaper. That why it is happening in games too, it is perfectly natural.

 

16 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Now, it's becoming just like any other MMO, where your in game time is worthless garbage. You can spend hours in game to make only 50~100pl, something worth about $2~3. And that's with a good farm.

I think you are delusional. Warframe has pretty low time-to-money multiplier (or a wage if you accept the fact that time = money). There are a lot of games that values player time higher, WoW, EVE online, Metin, hell, even Tibia. And you blame it on AH that does not even exist in Warframe while it does exists in at least 2 games I mentioned.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Kaminariss

[NezuHimeSama]

In those cases, there's a limited number of sellers as there's an actual cost of parts or labor, ect, which prevents a race to the bottom. Otherwise, cars would be 10 cents each.

That doesn't happen in online games.

Also, I'm comparing Warframe to other online games I've played. Prior to Market, it was pretty good. In general, the only ways to make time have value is to make the time spent either so unpleasant no one wants to bother with it, or to make the act of trading awkward.

Edited March 12, 2018 by NezuHimeSama