[Gameplay] My proposed changes for a melee rework

[Futurehero]

I have no idea if people have already proposed changes similar to these, but I'm gonna go ahead and suggest them anyways.

I've made these into two categories: "Easy Mode" and "Hard Mode". These refer to DE's potential workload in implementing these changes, a.k.a , how much they'd need to change the game to accommodate these.  All these changes are based on my preferred playstyle, so they might not be to everyone's taste.

Easy Mode:

• Spoiler

   

  • Remove blocking from the game. It's an unused mechanic that needlessly ties up a key button command. All features that rely on it get rolled into other existing  features.
  • Remove channeling from the game. Like blocking, it's a feature that's criminally underused except edge case scenarios like Life Strike and dissolving corpses in stealthy missions.Like the above, all features reliant on it get rolled  into other existing features. Example: Zenurik Energy channel efficiency gets changed to "recover 4-8-12-16" energy per melee kill.
  • The energy effects associated with channeling are now linked to your combo multiplier. This re-uses the cool effect, and gives you a visual way of distinguishing how high your multiplier is
  • The [channel attack] button command becomes [melee two] . All combos in every stance now use alternative inputes of [melee one]-->[melee two]-->[melee one] instead of weird things like "hold backward", "hold block", "pause here, charge  there". Easier to pull of combos, and you now have a clear cut reason to switch to dedicated melee, since you need your [melee two] button command to do them
  • The [block command] becomes the [charge attack] command. Giving charge attacks their own dedicated button eliminates that annoying quick attack you do at the start of every charge, and lessens confusion when performing combos. It also gives you the option of performing charge attacks during combos.
  • Slide attacks are replaced with dash attacks. These make you dash forward a certain distance, and maybe even give you limited lock on if you're targeting an enemy while you do it. Thus, you gain a quick way to gap close on enemies without relying on stance-dependent forward momentum like Blind Justice . As a side effect, you eliminate the "chain slide attack macro" cheese that people seem to be complaining a lot about these days. 
  • If by the previous change, there's a worry that "coptering" will become a thing again, I'd remind people we have operators that can chain-void dash for a much better effect.

   

   

Hard mode:

• Spoiler

   

  • All of the points mentioned in "Easy Mode"
  • All stances are removed from the game. By that , I mean, they're all broken down in their individual "component attacks". Each individual attack or group of attacks (if they're in quick succession and reliant on one button command) becomes its own mod card.
  • An alternate "Edit Combos" modding window becomes available for melee weapons. This has 8 mod slots and is separated into two rows. The top row handles your [melee one] attacks, and the second row your [melee two] attacks.  Attack order goes logically from left -->right, so your first input of [melee one] will trigger the top-left  slotted mod .
  • In this window you can equip mod card attacks, formerly part of stances, and customize your own combos in accordance to your preferences. You might for example have all your [melee one] attacks be stuns or slams, and have your [melee two] feature finishers.
  • To prevent abuse, some limitations might apply. For example, some powerful attacks might have " can only be last attack in combo" . Additionally, you can't put duplicate mod-cards in your combo.
  • Obviously the main issue here would be animation blending. Finding some way to feature smooth transitions between every "hammer attack" in every stance to every other "hammer attack". This is why I put these changes in "Hard Mode".  I don't know how feasible this would be for their animation team.
  • The benefit is of course being able to tailor your melee style based on your personal preference. 

   

   

[artemisfortune]

i see the word "remove" in a rework and i'm already out. instead of removing something why not just make it worthwhile? i don't get the whole "man i don't use this feature so lets just remove it!" mindset at all, it's such backwards thinking. literally backwards.

[DarkSkysz]

What? No! Dont do that...

Remove block? Guardian derision is the best way to get energy with rage when there is a lot of cray frogs jumping around and exploding things.

Remove channeling? Why you want the dps of melee to get reduced? It's a increase of 1.5x.

Remove stances? Hell no. We don't have enough mod slots for what we want and you are saying to waste them with combos?

Replace slide attack? If you want to dash and slash, play Excalibur.

Edited March 7, 2018 by DarkSkysz

[(PSN)ctcjoe19]

Or maybe DE should implement enemy mechanics that will require for us to use blocking etc.

[Futurehero]

16 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

i see the word "remove" in a rework and i'm already out. instead of removing something why not just make it worthwhile? i don't get the whole "man i don't use this feature so lets just remove it!" mindset at all, it's such backwards thinking. literally backwards.

I'm glad we got the "kneejerk reaction post" out of the way in the first reply. Have my upvote, sir ;)

 

12 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

 

Remove stances? Hell no. We don't have enough mod slots for what we want and you are saying to waste them with combos?

 

This line of thinking is what made me post this in the first place. When people would take a couple of extra mod points to slot in their Spoiled Strike or whatever, instead of having an actual fun melee system that isn't reliant on quick-spam melee or carpal-tunnel inducing slide attacks, you know the melee system is fundamentally borked 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Futurehero

[peterc3]

Yeah, my most wanted melee game play involves mixing keyboard and mouse buttons. E -> M1 -> E -> M2.

You don't use block so they should get rid of it. Except for X, Y and Z, there are 0 uses of <feature> so instead of me ignoring it, DE should get rid of it.

Examples should be realistic.

20 minutes ago, Futurehero said:

Zenurik Energy channel efficiency gets changed to "recover 4-8-12-16" energy per melee kill.

This is not realistic.

20 minutes ago, Futurehero said:

Giving charge attacks their own dedicated button

Congrats, I have great news. This is already in the works.

 

Not even going to touch the "Hard" section because it rolls into my final point.

This is completely infeasible in this game. Melee is roughly third in the intended damage sources. First is either the frames themselves or guns, second is the other of the two. Melee is designed to compliment them, as evidenced by the ability to quick melee. That people choose to limit themselves to melee does not make this a game centered on melee.

Stances are designed as a single unit. Each combo is part of the style and they flow together. The amount of work to now make everything flow together is breathtaking. Less work goes into full games than what I imagine the animation work would be for this.

Melee in Warframe isn't perfect. They are working on it. These are not the changes that I would want or that DE seems to be in the process of making or fitting in to their vision, at least the bits that we are privy to.

[SixDimensions]

For typical hack-and-slash style games I have to admit the combo systems I admire most come from Bayonetta and DmC.  Bayonetta because you have the two buttons for two different weapons that you can chain together into various and powerful combos.  DmC because you can use the left/right trigger on console to switch between angel/demon mode that opens up different attacks and can again be chained together. This seamless chaining is engaging and fun but would difficult to implement in Warframe.  As much as I would love to see this type of combat system there remains a fundamental problem with the way the weapons are balanced.

Extravagant melee combat is unlikely merely because chaining together awesome combos to kill an enemy will easily fall to powerful ranged weapons that can eliminate the target quicker and with less risk at the expense of flashy style.   To make melee a contender it either has to be as strong as ranged weapons (which means that combos would be almost useless, especially extended chain attacks, in most circumstances) or ranged weapons need to be reduced to melee strength levels, a very bad idea.

I don't expect that everyone will agree with these points however.

I would love to see a more elegant melee system just for the fun factor. But the feasibility of it is another factor altogether.

[Ghosgar]

I disagree with everything but the slide attack, but instead of a dash make it a lunge aimed at a single target and with higher damage to compensate that or turns into a finisher. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Ghosgar

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

2 hours ago, Futurehero said:

The [channel attack] button command becomes [melee two] . All combos in every stance now use alternative inputes of [melee one]-->[melee two]-->[melee one]

So you are proposing that we spastically spam both 'e' and [LMB] for combos? Because right now, aside from block combos, everything can be done with one button, which is far easier on both mind and fingers.

[DarkSkysz]

4 hours ago, Futurehero said:

I'm glad we got the "kneejerk reaction post" out of the way in the first reply. Have my upvote, sir ;)

 

This line of thinking is what made me post this in the first place. When people would take a couple of extra mod points to slot in their Spoiled Strike or whatever, instead of having an actual fun melee system that isn't reliant on quick-spam melee or carpal-tunnel inducing slide attacks, you know the melee system is fundamentally borked 

6 mods slot are always filled with primed and basic crit/status. Well at last if you know how to mod your gear and get it to work over lvl 300+ enemies. The last two slots are used to mix the element strong against the faction. Where would these stupid combo mobs fit in? *facepalm*

Edited March 8, 2018 by DarkSkysz

[BBaw]

I generally try to be constructive but there are so many things I would have to address I'd feel like I was picking on you or somethin, so, I'ma just say I don't like any of it.   Some of your ideas might be neat for a different game but you're talking about a massive rework for the melee system when the fundamental problem with the melee system....isn't the melee system.  The melee system works great, its capable of handling all content in the game and scaling it in a million different directions with all the different damage types.  With the varied stances and combos and weapon types and everything that goes into it. It works!  Its pretty fun. The problem with the melee system though is we have no where to apply it to its full potential,  and players just get to sit around being creative about all the ways to completely obliterate super easy content.  That thar is the problem with the melee system.  We don't have an outlet for all that power.

Coincidentally this is also the same problem we have with the gun system...

and the Warframe abilities system....to a lesser extent, some of those don't scale too well.  The debuffs and CC work but the damage is meh.

 

 

[SixDimensions]

15 hours ago, BBaw said:

With the varied stances and combos and weapon types and everything that goes into it. It works!  Its pretty fun. The problem with the melee system though is we have no where to apply it to its full potential

 

 

Couldn't agree more.  Either melee has to maintain it's current strength in order to be viable compared to guns (which limits the flashy use of combos) or it has to be made weaker to promote a necessity/outlet to combos. I am completely against weakening the weapons. My melee weapons are plenty powerful at the expense of chaining combos together and that's fine.  An alternative route they could try is making enemies that are only able to be harmed by melee weapons.  But that's more of a bandaid and forcing melee on people which we know the userbase is generally not a fan of

[Walkampf]

I read to 'Remove blocking from the game. '....

Quite frankly, I don't think that you have the capability of providing usefull feedback.

[Futurehero]

Oh welll, can't please everyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At the very least , I know who to put on my ignore list for future posts.

Hint, it starts with this guy 

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

I read to 'Remove blocking from the game. '....

Quite frankly, I don't think that you have the capability of providing usefull feedback.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Futurehero

[Ozent]

2 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Oh welll, can't please everyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At the very least , I know who to put on my ignore list for future posts.

Hint, it starts with this guy 

 

Hmm, I think you mean can't please anyone. 

There hasn't been a single agreement post with you. This one is against your proposed idea for melee changes too. You're looking for a complete overhaul in melee works which could take months with a full developer team working purely on melee. As far as I see, melee in warframe is unique compared to other games on how it works. I'd like to keep playing that way.

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I block all the tme op. Its neither needless nor useless. Its incredibly powerful especially at high lvl/endgame content.