Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[TKDancer]

41 minutes ago, Checht said:

How convenient it is to cut out my last sentence in your quote.

not really, warframe simply is nothing akin to a UT shooter beyond the fact that both have guns and a lot of jumping

[IfritKajiTora]

No cooldowns for the game, sorry.

Invisibility should be nerfed somehow. Turn it ON and it drain all the time energy, or do that invisibility isn't that great, because one mistake will make enemies know where you are etc.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Checht said:

Solo play has lower spawn rate, nothing I could do about that. I am already using the current "endgame" of Warframe as a benchmark, which is Sortie 3. If you want to talk about endless run, sure, there is obviously a limit for any frames up to a point where any single stray bullet can oneshot you.

And there's the problem. You CAN do something about that. I know, inviting 3 Limbos and have them simultaneously AFK is a bit difficult, but it's definitely not impossible. This is exactly why there are practically no Bombards or Nullifiers throughout your playthroughs. Also, for many frames that are squishier, sortie 3 already exceeds said limit, to the point where they need CC to survive.

8 hours ago, Checht said:

Volt's 1 is a mini-stun of 1 s that can chain up to a maximum of 5 enemies (how is 5 enemies "everything"?) and can be treated like another gun with 100% electricity proc. To stun "everything", I'd need to spam Volt's 1 at different directions. By the time I cast my second Shock, the first shocked enemies would have recovered. Repeatedly using 1 does not turn the gameplay to my Excalibur's gameplay, does it? My point is not banishing CC entirely, but make players have to use hard CC (hard CC meaning large AoE, long duration stun) sparingly.

Fair point until you consider the fact that you rarely faced more than 5 enemies in your playthrough, except for the last 2 minutes or so. This is definitely not the same as in a regular 4-player pub group, where you are facing off against 10 enemies or more, often from different directions at the exact same time.

Also, regarding your Excalibur gameplay, that's the pre-LoS nerf version of the gameplay. The only reason why you weren't dead yet is because you haven't spawned enough enemies, at which point there will be enough outliers (either by bugginess or just ducking behind cover) to kill you with their stray bullets, and you have to be absolutely sure that you could manage to survive before recasting blind. You got to deal with less than 5 enemies most of the time. Moreover, you were playing in a larger room on the map, so you got to avoid those pesky bombards and napalms nuking you behind doors. You had the luxury of using hard CC sparingly, but other players don't.

8 hours ago, Checht said:

Yes, Volt's shield is a very useful skill. Now you see that a skill does not have to be hard CC or invisibility to be useful, right? Static shield can neutralize ranged units at a maximum of 180 degrees, current shield at an even smaller angle, but they are very useful as long as you are aware of enemy locations. It does not neutralize everything around you, which is why I like it. I'll admit that having Volt's shield is a poor way to demonstrate that you need to minimize damage by dodging bullets. I could do a quick demonstration in Simulacrum regarding the time to die when you're just staying on ground shooting vs moving around erratically while shooting, but I thought this is already common knowledge. Regarding the times that I almost died and had to respond to the situations accordingly, that's what makes gameplay interesting, doesn't it? It certainly at least makes it more fun to watch compared to my Ash's or Excalibur's gameplay. Also, the point of my Volt's gameplay is not to show how skilled I am, it's just to prove a point that Volt can make-do with a cooldown timer on Discharge, with the current "endgame" as the benchmark.

You've essentially decided to neutralize everything around you after you just stood in a corner and placed down a shield. It wasn't until later that a Corrupted Healer caught you off-guard and you nearly died, and those are common in a group due to the higher spawn rate. Your shield is your ONLY response.

Also, your best argument is "time to die"? Dying is the one and only thing that you shouldn't do in a horde shooter. Without a good map design, you'll get shot down halfway through your bullet jump.

Moreover, adding a CD timer feels clunky for Warframe. We're space ninjas, not LoL sprites. As much as I'd like to agree, it sadly takes away from the feel of the play. I'd opt for a more nuanced and less intrusive alternative.

8 hours ago, Checht said:

Well, when I was using Ash or Excalibur, I did not even need to utilize the covers, did I? Having no hard CC makes it rewarding to utilize the environment to your advantage (jumping around 2 separate levels etc.). Or are you saying Volt wouldn't be viable at "endgame" at other tilesets? Suggest one and I can try it out for you.

Okay, no, I've never said that Volt wouldn't be endgame viable.

For Ash, that is true. Invisibility removes the need to utilize covers, and that's kind of the point. That's why we have invisibility in the first place, and we don't have enough hiding spots except for those stupid treasure rooms, at which point you'd realize that they're also where enemies spawn. Teleport retains the ability to perform stealth finishers, because pretty much nobody gives a flying carp about stealth anymore, and this is an awfully slow method of killing. You took nearly 20 minutes to murder 10 waves of mobs for a solo run, which is beyond inefficient.

For Excalibur, that's the whole point. Radial Blind is exclusively against utilizing covers, because you need LoS to blind anyone. Ducking behind cover is just counter-intuitive. Excalibur's skills are not made for covers. They're used when you're out of cover, which is again, the majority of Warframe gamplay.

9 hours ago, Checht said:

I only have streamline as efficiency mod, and I have Zenurik. I did not criticize the energy economy. I suggested adding cooldown timer for certain skills rather than nerfing the energy economy precisely for this point. Nerfing the energy economy will just lead to players saving up energy for the hard CC skills, the other non-overpowered skills will still be under utilized.

Fair point, but again, CD does not fit the dynamic flow of the game. Furthermore, the reason why those skills are useless isn't that they are overshadowed by CC, it's that they have terrible scaling. CC is applicable to any enemy except for certain bosses, while damage skills often aren't. Ember's pre-nerf WoF is the very definition of no gameplay for anything under level 40, then quickly drops off in sorties and pretty much only used as a global CC.

[dudefaceguy]

The only reason to nerf abilities in a PvE game is if they are interfering with other players' experience. None of these really do that. Other players can effectively play the game if there is an Ash, Volt, or Excalibur using these abilities. If you want to prevent yourself from spamming these abilities, you can easily just build for less efficiency/duration, or not use Zenurik.

[Checht]

@Duodenial Sure, if you're not convinced by solo play, I'll get some gameplay footage of me playing in a squad with Volt without Discharge sometime soon if you do not believe Warframe's horde shooter gameplay is not viable without spamming hard CC skills. It's not like I haven't been using Volt without spamming Discharge since the time where riot shield isn't even part of his ability, and Discharge was called Overload anyway.

10 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

Also, your best argument is "time to die"? Dying is the one and only thing that you shouldn't do in a horde shooter. Without a good map design, you'll get shot down halfway through your bullet jump.

My argument is the game is only fun when there is a risk of dying if you make mistakes, not "time to die", I don't know how you got that. Playing as Ash or spamming hard CCs pretty much removes that risk.

11 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

For Ash, that is true. Invisibility removes the need to utilize covers, and that's kind of the point. That's why we have invisibility in the first place, and we don't have enough hiding spots except for those stupid treasure rooms, at which point you'd realize that they're also where enemies spawn. Teleport retains the ability to perform stealth finishers, because pretty much nobody gives a flying carp about stealth anymore, and this is an awfully slow method of killing. You took nearly 20 minutes to murder 10 waves of mobs for a solo run, which is beyond inefficient.

So a game if fun enough for you as long as the challenge is "can I kill fast enough?", and not "can I complete the mission?"? I find that to be a little boring. Also, Volt and Excalibur both took 20 minutes too.

14 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

Moreover, adding a CD timer feels clunky for Warframe. We're space ninjas, not LoL sprites. As much as I'd like to agree, it sadly takes away from the feel of the play. I'd opt for a more nuanced and less intrusive alternative.

I just don't think CC-lock by spamming abilities is nuanced gameplay. If we're space ninjas, gameplay should necessitate us to utilize the fast-paced movement, not just CC and casually pick off enemies.

15 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

Also, regarding your Excalibur gameplay, that's the pre-LoS nerf version of the gameplay. The only reason why you weren't dead yet is because you haven't spawned enough enemies, at which point there will be enough outliers (either by bugginess or just ducking behind cover) to kill you with their stray bullets, and you have to be absolutely sure that you could manage to survive before recasting blind. You got to deal with less than 5 enemies most of the time. Moreover, you were playing in a larger room on the map, so you got to avoid those pesky bombards and napalms nuking you behind doors. You had the luxury of using hard CC sparingly, but other players don't.

I think it's easy enough to survive for 5 seconds with the current "endgame" before recasting blind. Again, maybe some gameplay footage of Excalibur squad play will convince you. Will be having some external variables due to playing in pub though.

18 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

Fair point until you consider the fact that you rarely faced more than 5 enemies in your playthrough, except for the last 2 minutes or so.

It can chain up to 5 enemies if they are clustered together, most of the time it only stuns what's in front of you. Well, I think paper discussion can only do so much, some gameplay footage of Volt in squad without spamming Discharge would be a better answer I guess.

28 minutes ago, Duodenial said:

Fair point, but again, CD does not fit the dynamic flow of the game. Furthermore, the reason why those skills are useless isn't that they are overshadowed by CC, it's that they have terrible scaling. CC is applicable to any enemy except for certain bosses, while damage skills often aren't. Ember's pre-nerf WoF is the very definition of no gameplay for anything under level 40, then quickly drops off in sorties and pretty much only used as a global CC.

I believe we might have some common ground here. So, what's your vision to balance the abilities then? Make damage skills scale with enemy levels? Nerf enemy armor/HP? My idea is to just add CD to CC skills or nerf CC skills, so that they are balanced with the other abilities. If you want to argue to buff the "underpowered" skills instead, I can foresee some problems, but I wouldn't impose any speculations on what you have in mind. I am sincerely curious, please let me know.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

@Duodenial Sure, if you're not convinced by solo play, I'll get some gameplay footage of me playing in a squad with Volt without Discharge sometime soon if you do not believe Warframe's horde shooter gameplay is not viable without spamming hard CC skills. It's not like I haven't been using Volt without spamming Discharge since the time where riot shield isn't even part of his ability, and Discharge was called Overload anyway.

My point here isn't about whether Volt could get by without Discharge, it's about whether other frames without damage negation skills could have the same luxury. Take all of those squishy caster frames without any damage reduction abilities, and they're essentially toast without nuking or CC. Volt can negate damage with his shield, other frames cannot. You can't just nerf hard CC outright because some frames base their whole kit on CC, like Nyx or Limbo. They'll have a really difficult time surviving the endless onslaught.

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

My argument is the game is only fun when there is a risk of dying if you make mistakes, not "time to die", I don't know how you got that. Playing as Ash or spamming hard CCs pretty much removes that risk.

The thing is, this game isn't forcing you to make mistakes, it's trying to overwhelm you with sheer numbers and broken scaling. You could still die after doing everything right. This is why we've been complaining about enemy scaling since the beginning. It's punishing, not fun.

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

So a game if fun enough for you as long as the challenge is "can I kill fast enough?", and not "can I complete the mission?"? I find that to be a little boring. Also, Volt and Excalibur both took 20 minutes too.

If FNAF keeps hurling jumpscares at you for 20 minutes straight, you'd get bored too. Having a lot of action per minute does not make things fun. There should be a similar tension and release cycle, where you duck behind cover for a while, then you've made the tactical decision of riplining onto a wall, shoot a lancer dead, then glide through mid-air and shoot a second lancer dead, then reel another Grineer in behind another cover and stab him to death on the floor with a massive Galatine. THAT is my definition of fun. My desire for killing faster is fueled by a lack of release from the high tension of the game, not for the sake of mass murdering everything I see. This is why I loved the low level exterminates that I used to run solo, back then when stealth gameplay and alarms actually meant something.

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

I just don't think CC-lock by spamming abilities is nuanced gameplay. If we're space ninjas, gameplay should necessitate us to utilize the fast-paced movement, not just CC and casually pick off enemies.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, DE would need to redesign a lot of maps, enemy AI and scaling for that to be anywhere near viable. That is not a cost effective solution, at least for now. Whether or not DE would listen in the future though, that would be beyond me.

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

I think it's easy enough to survive for 5 seconds with the current "endgame" before recasting blind. Again, maybe some gameplay footage of Excalibur squad play will convince you. Will be having some external variables due to playing in pub though.

It can chain up to 5 enemies if they are clustered together, most of the time it only stuns what's in front of you. Well, I think paper discussion can only do so much, some gameplay footage of Volt in squad without spamming Discharge would be a better answer I guess.

Okay, just stop with the gameplay footages already. I believe I've seen enough.

42 minutes ago, Checht said:

I believe we might have some common ground here. So, what's your vision to balance the abilities then? Make damage skills scale with enemy levels? Nerf enemy armor/HP? My idea is to just add CD to CC skills or nerf CC skills, so that they are balanced with the other abilities. If you want to argue to buff the "underpowered" skills instead, I can foresee some problems, but I wouldn't impose any speculations on what you have in mind. I am sincerely curious, please let me know.

That I do not have a good answer to, as you're essentially requesting the rework of an entire game, down to its core mechanics. There are currently no good solutions to this mess, at least from my perspective.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Guest

[Checht]

4 hours ago, Duodenial said:

My point here isn't about whether Volt could get by without Discharge, it's about whether other frames without damage negation skills could have the same luxury. Take all of those squishy caster frames without any damage reduction abilities, and they're essentially toast without nuking or CC. Volt can negate damage with his shield, other frames cannot. You can't just nerf hard CC outright because some frames base their whole kit on CC, like Nyx or Limbo. They'll have a really difficult time surviving the endless onslaught.

Alright, I'm happy as long as you agree that Volt is viable at level 80-100 even with a CD on Discharge. I did not play other CC-lock frames much, which is why I did not post any nerf suggestions for them, and I need to depend on players experienced enough with them to comment on any nerfs. I know that Volt is still viable even with a CD on Discharge, which is why I suggested it.

Now I'd like rephrase the discussion that I've posted in the original post to get my point across. Maybe it's easier to follow if I present this flow chart.

1. If endgame content with appropriate difficulty is introduced (level 80-100 missions in my original post), would some frames still cheese through such content? Or, to emphasize this further, if endgame missions starting at level 150 are introduced, would viable frames to play such content be narrowed down to a select few?

If you agree, we can get on to the next point. If you don't, there's nothing to go on, because we have no hard empirical evidence to support either case.

2. Do you think it is fine for playable characters to be unbalanced?

If no, we can go on. If yes, it's fine, there are some who think Warframe can just be mindless fun without a need for balance between frames or abilities. Personally, I think a good game design should have well-balanced playable characters.

3. What should be done to balance the frames? Buff the weaker frames or nerf the overpowered frames?

I am on the stance of nerfing overpowered frames. If we were to buff the weaker frames, the foreseeable outcome is as follows. Currently, overpowered frames or abilities are so because of invisibility or hard CC. If we were to make all frames have some form of such abilities, then difficulty only comes when enemies have scaled up enough to oneshot you with any stray bullets. This is what hard CC locks and invisibility do, which is why you feel that the game is only able to get you via "sheer numbers and broken scaling". If by not making mistake is to not stop pressing the button to hard CC or go invisible, there is no way for a player with a functioning brain to make any mistakes. I think nerfing such abilities would bring balance of these abilities with respect to other non-overpowered skills, bring down the endgame enemy level to an appropriate value of 80-100, and makes mistakes actually mistakes (not because you fell asleep and forgot to press [insert button number]).

Again, I do not like to play hard CC-lock or invisible frames to begin with, so I do not have enough experience for nerf suggestions on those frames. I can only talk about those that I have used frequently enough. I am still inviting players who share my sentiments to present your ideas on nerf suggestions.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Checht
typo

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Checht said:

Alright, I'm happy as long as you agree that Volt is viable at level 80-100 even with a CD on Discharge. I did not play other CC-lock frames much, which is why I did not post any nerf suggestions for them, and I need to depend on players experienced enough with them to comment on any nerfs. I know that Volt is still viable even with a CD on Discharge, which is why I suggested it.

I've never actually agreed with you on this one, just saying. Whether or not Volt is viable, I'll leave that for other people to judge.

4 hours ago, Checht said:

1. If endgame content with appropriate difficulty is introduced (level 80-100 missions in my original post), would some frames still cheese through such content? Or, to emphasize this further, if endgame missions starting at level 150 are introduced, would viable frames to play such content be narrowed down to a select few?

Definitely. That's the whole point of the discussion.

4 hours ago, Checht said:

2. Do you think it is fine for playable characters to be unbalanced?

Yes, but not the way you'd think. I'd prefer more incomparable elements in Warframe, where those mechanics cannot be boiled down to a numerical value and compared with other things. They should be useful in different situations. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Or in another context, the water/diamond dilemma. To an unwitting customer, diamonds are  more valuable than water. To a thirsty desert wanderer, water is more valuable than diamonds. To a seasoned merchant, the value of these goods only depend on who you're selling them to.

Okay, as I'm pretty much cheating your Q&A at this point, I might as well answer Q3.

4 hours ago, Checht said:

3. What should be done to balance the frames? Buff the weaker frames or nerf the overpowered frames?

Both. Again, different warframes do different things in different situations. However, the problem here is that the game tends to throw the exact same challenges at us every single time. Players murdering scores of lancers? Throw in a bunch of Bombards with homing missiles, that'll show them. Wait, they're dead too? Yeah, sorry folks, the floor's on fire and so are your faces because Napalm. Oh you're still alive? More fire on the floor for you, and RELEASE THE HYEKKAS! RIP THEM TO SHREDS! Still no interesting tactical decisions, just kill everything on sight and you're done. This does nothing more than stagnate gameplay, and it's one of the many reasons why I hated endless missions. Killing faster is the entire premise of Warframe right now. And under this premise, DD and CC frames stand out from the rest, because they're the most effective at killing stuff.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Sorry OP, but I don't consider a single one of the frames you mentioned "OP" in any way. Each frame you complained about is outclassed at what you complain about by at least one other frame. Radial Blind spam from Excal? Have a look at range/duration Frost or CC Stomp Rhino. AoE Damage from Volt? Look at Equinox, Banshee (yes, even after the changes) or Mesa. Ash being invisible? Look at Ivara, Octavia or Loki who do that - just better/longer and effectively permanently. Regarding Fatal Teleport: Ivara/Sleep Arrow, Inaros/Pocket Sand yada yada. That was also just from the top of my head.

Point is - and I put it bluntly - you have pretty much ZERO clue what you are talking about here and call frames "OP" who in the grand scheme of things just aren't.

I don't understand this whole "OP" whining anyways in a primarily PvE game. I get nerfs that are meant to let others play the game - for example the recent Banshee changes or even if I dislike the result the Gara nerf - but I couldn't care less if people I work together with are "OP".

Must be a e-peen thing.

Skimming through the comments I saw you went on to complain about the game's framework now in terms of how difficulty is created. Which is a more valid point for sure, but don't you think said framework should be changed before nerfing/adjusting frame abilities based on a non-existing "better" framework instead? So maybe write up how you want the game to handle difficulty differently > see if it ever gets changed > and THEN look at frame abilities which don't fit into the new style of gameplay, mechanics or whatever would be changed to achieve different ways of difficulty.

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)Deeceem

[Khalinda]

Another day, another "nerf this" thread. 

Also, "I find that to be a little boring". Nobody cares what you find to be boring. You're either a very new player (kinda implied by the fact that you said you didn't play a lot of other frames) or you're a troll. Because the nerfs you want are for frames that nobody really plays outsite of specific missions.

"endgame missions starting at level 150" ? ENDGAME? 150? Please, get out of the solar map missions. Go 3+ hours on MOT solo without hard cc and/or perma invisibility. Without covert lethality and without zenistar/saryn/octavia combo. Without 4 bless trinities. Without any of the things that in your mind are overpowered. Post a video of how you survived a 3+hours solo MOT without anything you consider overpowered. And then come back and talk about ballance and nerfs. Untill then, please, "Operator, the system needs you, when will you begin another mission?"

[TheGrimCorsair]

22 minutes ago, Khalinda said:

Another day, another "nerf this" thread. 

Also, "I find that to be a little boring". Nobody cares what you find to be boring. You're either a very new player (kinda implied by the fact that you said you didn't play a lot of other frames) or you're a troll. Because the nerfs you want are for frames that nobody really plays outsite of specific missions.

"endgame missions starting at level 150" ? ENDGAME? 150? Please, get out of the solar map missions. Go 3+ hours on MOT solo without hard cc and/or perma invisibility. Without covert lethality and without zenistar/saryn/octavia combo. Without 4 bless trinities. Without any of the things that in your mind are overpowered. Post a video of how you survived a 3+hours solo MOT without anything you consider overpowered. And then come back and talk about ballance and nerfs. Untill then, please, "Operator, the system needs you, when will you begin another mission?"

Yeah, no. Sitting 3 hours in any endless mission is not remotely accurate to endgame at all. The highest level content players are expected to be able to accomplish are T5 bounties, T3 sorties, and Kuva Flood missions. All rapping out around or a bit less than level 100.

One thing DE could do though, and should, is hard cap endless missions to 2 full rotations of rewards, 'cause they've obviously got a problem with addiction to their game and havin' folks playin' one mission for hours straight is hardly a good thing, for them or their playerbase.

[UltraLYT]

That was just an easy situation for your 2-forma Excal.

If someone truly spent a lot of time and efforts on improving his gears, I cannot imagine one would seriously ask for nerfing them, especially those he loves so much. 

[Haeen]

10 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yeah, no. Sitting 3 hours in any endless mission is not remotely accurate to endgame at all. The highest level content players are expected to be able to accomplish are T5 bounties, T3 sorties, and Kuva Flood missions. All rapping out around or a bit less than level 100.

One thing DE could do though, and should, is hard cap endless missions to 2 full rotations of rewards, 'cause they've obviously got a problem with addiction to their game and havin' folks playin' one mission for hours straight is hardly a good thing, for them or their playerbase.

Why limit the amount of time someone can paly an ENDLESS mission?

Very few players stick around for one rotation let alone two. That would be an unnnecessary change attempting to play parent to players. Not your place, and its certainly not dealng with "addiction" so get out of here with that nonsense.

[UltraLYT]

If you really think you are powerful, you should find challenging situations to challenge your power, to test your skill, not nerfing it.

Just like if a martial artist believes his sword or skill is so powerful, he would go out to find formidable opponents to challenge himself, but not looking for ways to nerf his own sword or even himself!

Edited March 28, 2018 by modalmojo
typo

[Checht]

On 3/28/2018 at 3:34 AM, Khalinda said:

Also, "I find that to be a little boring". Nobody cares what you find to be boring. You're either a very new player (kinda implied by the fact that you said you didn't play a lot of other frames) or you're a troll. Because the nerfs you want are for frames that nobody really plays outsite of specific missions.

I don't like to flex my play time as an argument, because my point should stand by itself, so I shall refrain from stating my playtime anymore. I don't play the other frames because I quickly found them to be overpowered and boring to play as, not because I haven't unlocked them. The frames that I play as are usually underused, because they do not have spammable hard CC/invisibility/invincibility.

On 3/28/2018 at 3:34 AM, Khalinda said:

"endgame missions starting at level 150" ? ENDGAME? 150? Please, get out of the solar map missions. Go 3+ hours on MOT solo without hard cc and/or perma invisibility. Without covert lethality and without zenistar/saryn/octavia combo. Without 4 bless trinities. Without any of the things that in your mind are overpowered. Post a video of how you survived a 3+hours solo MOT without anything you consider overpowered. And then come back and talk about ballance and nerfs. Untill then, please, "Operator, the system needs you, when will you begin another mission?"

That's precisely the point, isn't it? If spamming those abilities are exclusively required to survive to and beyond the point where enemies can oneshot you (3+ hours on MOT), then by definition, those abilities are overpowered, aren't they?

Do you want to nerf these abilities such that endgame is at a point where you still can respond to attack? Or do you want endgame to be at a point where you die from one shot?

 

 

 

[Soketsu]

Le 22/03/2018 à 03:13, Checht a dit :

One of the ideas is to introduce level 80-100 missions outside of Sortie 3. The general consensus in the thread regarding introducing such levels or hiking up the endgame difficulty is that players would deviate towards frames with overpowered abilities that can still cheese through such content, reducing frame diversity. This is a sign that some frame rebalancing (nerfing) needs to be done as a good game design should have well-balanced playable characters.

In your mind, you may have to know that even before sortie exist, many of us was able to deal with lvl 120 foes

So in the end what you will just do it to kill 3 warframes for nothing...

[Checht]

29 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

In your mind, you may have to know that even before sortie exist, many of us was able to deal with lvl 120 foes

The exact level doesn't really matter. The argument at hand here is if sufficient endgame difficulty is introduced, what frames will be over-represented and what abilities will be spammed to cheese through these contents. Let's say endgame missions starting with level 120 enemies (using your number here) are introduced, what frames can still mindlessly plow through such content with ease? Of the 3 that I've mentioned, I think Ash would be the most obvious.

34 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

So in the end what you will just do it to kill 3 warframes for nothing...

Just because I presented those 3 frames doesn't mean they should be prioritized to be nerfed. I presented them because I've used them frequently enough to comment on them (stopped playing other hard CC/invisible/invincible frames because they're too boring). If you find the nerf suggestions to be unwarranted, I'd like to know why. As I've demonstrated in the gameplay videos, to win, you pretty much just need to spam 2 and 3 with Ash, spam 2 as Excal. For Volt, Discharge is only on the verge of spammable (will be spammable with teammate giving energy regen) with the current energy economy, not quite overpowered relative to the other 2. That is why my nerf suggestion for him is just a cooldown timer on Discharge, not a major nerf.

[MickThejaguar]

After reading your entire post I've come to realize that you are so fixated on nerfing these "OP abilities" that you completely neglect to mention the reason these abilities need to be as powerful as they are in the first place: The enemies. At level 100 you're very liable to get one shot since all three of the frames you've mentioned aren't really all that tanky. Making it so that Ash's invisibility doesn't last as long AND has a cooldown would remove his survivabililty and what does he get in it's place? Enemies at that high of a level are tanky as all hell and deal enough damage to one shot you two times over. So Ash needs his invisibility to stay alive. And covert lethality is a single target one shot. You want them to nerf a single target one shot mod when the Tigris Prime, the Zarr, the Zenistar, and many other weapons can alive far more enemies at that level without even needing to get near them? These are not good ideas. If you don't like the frame's play style then don't play it but don't call for nerfs when they aren't necessary. 

[MickThejaguar]

On 3/26/2018 at 9:33 PM, Checht said:

So a game if fun enough for you as long as the challenge is "can I kill fast enough?", and not "can I complete the mission?"? I find that to be a little boring. Also, Volt and Excalibur both took 20 minutes too.

Your Excalibur video only took that long because you used an awful build and an awful playstyle. You could've easily done that in half the time if your build was dedicated to doing damage and not just stunning the enemies. 

[Checht]

2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

After reading your entire post I've come to realize that you are so fixated on nerfing these "OP abilities" that you completely neglect to mention the reason these abilities need to be as powerful as they are in the first place: The enemies. At level 100 you're very liable to get one shot since all three of the frames you've mentioned aren't really all that tanky. Making it so that Ash's invisibility doesn't last as long AND has a cooldown would remove his survivabililty and what does he get in it's place? Enemies at that high of a level are tanky as all hell and deal enough damage to one shot you two times over. So Ash needs his invisibility to stay alive.

I think you'd still be able to survive one shot at level 100 unless it's from an enemy shotgun up close. Beyond level 100, yeah, enemies can oneshot you. However, going beyond level 100 has always been optional, isn't it? You can only do so via endless missions. Do you want the game to be "balanced" at the point where enemies can oneshot you, or at the point where you still can respond to enemy damage? There is no right or wrong answer, I just prefer the latter, because I foresee the game to become press-[insert number]-to-win spamfest if it's the former, and I don't like that kind of gameplay. Although not as "good" as invisibility, Ash's ability to get huge lifesteal (Lifesteal equiipped in melee of course) with Teleport + finisher gives Ash some survivability other than being invisible. With the current state of invisibility, it allows you to stay alive indefinitely.

The same goes for Excalibur, his ability to open up enemies for finishers pairs well with Lifesteal or Exodia Might for survivability via health regen. I do recognize that Excalibur lacks other defensive skills if Radial Blind is nerfed, which is why I said buffing his health would be good if Radial Blind was to be nerfed in the original post.

2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

And covert lethality is a single target one shot. You want them to nerf a single target one shot mod when the Tigris Prime, the Zarr, the Zenistar, and many other weapons can alive far more enemies at that level without even needing to get near them? These are not good ideas.

You still need to aim with weapons, and they can only oneshot enemies up to the point where enemy level scaled up to a point (my Volt's Rubico needed ~5 headshots to kill Augmented Enemy Armor corrupted heavy gunner in my Volt gameplay). With (Fatal) Teleport + Covert Lethality, you just need to keep spamming 3 until your reticle lines up generally with an enemy, and it scales indefinitely. The more important point is that you still need to aim with weapons, which requires good player performance. Although, I'll admit that the issue with Teleport + CL isn't as big as invisibility. Without the ability to stay permanently invisible, it's not viable to spam Teleport + CL anyway.

2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

If you don't like the frame's play style then don't play it but don't call for nerfs when they aren't necessary. 

I already stopped playing many frames in which the playstyle is too mindless. I already mentioned that I quit Ash in my original post and a lot of other frames which many players consider more overpowered. I stopped playing those frames early on, which is why I don't feel comfortable enough to comment much on them. Regarding whether the nerfs are necessary, I think it's subjective. If DE wants to balance the game such that level 80-100 is the suitable endgame challenge, then it is necessary. If DE wants us to be able to survive beyond the point where enemies can oneshot us with a select few frames, then the nerfs are not necessary.

1 hour ago, MickThejaguar said:

Your Excalibur video only took that long because you used an awful build and an awful playstyle. You could've easily done that in half the time if your build was dedicated to doing damage and not just stunning the enemies. 

Stunning enemies is the optimum tactic to survive. If the priority is to "kill fast" and not "survive", then it is just a grindy game, not an engaging game.

[Ventura_Highway]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:59 PM, IfritKajiTora said:

that invisibility isn't that great, because one mistake will make enemies know where you are etc.

I'd like to strike a balance between the Grineer despairing that something their eyes cannot see is slowly nailing them one by one with a greatsword and them being able to triangulate within half a millisecond the location of an Ivara firing bow shots at them.

I think a fine balance would be that is that after a couple seconds of some warframe's interaction with them (shooting, bumping etc) they should try to infer the general area of their assailant and do something about it (wild shooting). They may also simply not notice the Loki or whatever because he's in a squad with a far more visible and ferocious Chroma or Rhino. Regarding damage powers, the Void is largely illogical and they cannot realistically track any direct effects because of it, like a lot of Ash's damage abilities.

To counterbalance this some measure of higher defense would be necessary for invisibility reliant frames. I actually would like 80-100 to become a little better than kill or be killed, but maybe I'm asking for something I'll end up not wanting.

As a disclaimer I've been far more active on other games recently, but these are still the words of someone who has clocked time in each and every month since 2013. (I think)

[(PSN)sprinic1501]

For the Love of All that is Lotus, PLEASE DE Do not nerf anything. Do not listen to this man. And, please do not add more cooldown timers. I hate mobas. I play this game specifically because the powers are powerful and consistently usable. I like magic, casting, and games where you can just cut loose and feel badass. If I cant spam my powers, *and* do work, im not having fun. 

All due respect to you tenno, but I completely disagree with all your things. A mutually beneficial way to make us both happy is for DE to leave the foolishness alone, and introduce tougher game modes, etc. Buff things, into your liking, and I can feel free to join in or avoid it. Dont nerf, into your liking, and screw me over in the process. I dont play this game for "thinking" and in-depth strategy. No no, no no. Please no.

Edited March 30, 2018 by (PS4)sprinic1501

[Soketsu]

Il y a 9 heures, Checht a dit :

The exact level doesn't really matter. The argument at hand here is if sufficient endgame difficulty is introduced, what frames will be over-represented and what abilities will be spammed to cheese through these contents. Let's say endgame missions starting with level 120 enemies (using your number here) are introduced, what frames can still mindlessly plow through such content with ease? Of the 3 that I've mentioned, I think Ash would be the most obvious.

Just because I presented those 3 frames doesn't mean they should be prioritized to be nerfed. I presented them because I've used them frequently enough to comment on them (stopped playing other hard CC/invisible/invincible frames because they're too boring). If you find the nerf suggestions to be unwarranted, I'd like to know why. As I've demonstrated in the gameplay videos, to win, you pretty much just need to spam 2 and 3 with Ash, spam 2 as Excal. For Volt, Discharge is only on the verge of spammable (will be spammable with teammate giving energy regen) with the current energy economy, not quite overpowered relative to the other 2. That is why my nerf suggestion for him is just a cooldown timer on Discharge, not a major nerf.

 It does matter if you want to make a useful change.

I agree that not everyone deal will lvl 100+ foes, it doesn't man we don't exist. If the DE want to keep as many player as people thy should be careful to ""minor"" detail like this. Beside in event (cf defection) we don't really want to be powerless.

At higher level, it's alwayskill or be killed, even the wealest shot or being exposed for one instant to an AOE mean bleeding out. And being invincible doesn't mean ou will succeed your mission even less doing it efficiently, I remind you this game is about grinding so it's also a question abut how efficiently you doing your mission. And often being able to process one room full of foes in 5 sec are recquired.

Easy, because you didn't take in account enough parameters, you have to consider a whole loadout(weapons, operator...), not just the warframe. Even outside of that you have to consider what other loadout are able to do.

That is pretty much the gameplay that many seem to enjoys for year. Why suddently it should change on the ground you want to ? It doen't matter to you that 2 or 3 guy using their CC in cycle and one guy doing all the DPS ?

You see a minor nerf, many will just there are more efficient way to get what they want. But then if you are ready to make this nerf and then be sure that it doesn't affect the time that people have to use in order get they want want, you may not annoy those players. I hope they will be no other things to take into account... (I let you time to think)

But as I see, you just want to change warframe to your taste without considering what some other people wants.

[Femuru]

guys guys guys i finally figured it out. . . . this post was made by bungie in attempt to ruin the game and get ppl to return to destiny, nice try bungie but warframe isnt yur cheap destiny lmfao

[Checht]

31 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

I remind you this game is about grinding so it's also a question abut how efficiently you doing your mission.

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. I think fun and engaging gameplay should come first, any resources gained in the process should be secondary. If grinding is the main focus of a game, what do you do after you've obtained what you grinded for? That's the reason I've quit Warframe once, due to lack of endgame challenge. I've returned following the PoE hype. I've seen posts in the General section regarding players being bored at endgame and asking for higher level missions or new game+, and pondering on quitting. If this goes on, it is hard for DE to retain players expecting challenging and engaging gameplay from Warframe (and I believe it has already been so for quite some time).

If the question that I ask myself is "How fast can I complete the mission to get resources fast?" instead of "Let's see if I can complete this mission", it is no fun in my opinion.

Also, my motivation for the suggested nerfs are also to make being able to survive to level 100+ a big deal. Currently, anybody can do that just by spamming hard CC/invisibility/invincibility.

52 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

But as I see, you just want to change warframe to your taste without considering what some other people wants.

This is a feedback forum, I am giving DE feedback on what I like and what I dislike. It is up to DE to make the optimal business decision. I understand that catering too much to my taste has a risk of isolating players enjoying mindless fun, but that is DE's decision to make, my job is just to provide feedback on what I like and dislike. For example, the following is also a perfectly valid point.

1 hour ago, (PS4)sprinic1501 said:

For the Love of All that is Lotus, PLEASE DE Do not nerf anything. Do not listen to this man. And, please do not add more cooldown timers. I hate mobas. I play this game specifically because the powers are powerful and consistently usable. I like magic, casting, and games where you can just cut loose and feel badass. If I cant spam my powers, *and* do work, im not having fun. 

All due respect to you tenno, but I completely disagree with all your things. A mutually beneficial way to make us both happy is for DE to leave the foolishness alone, and introduce tougher game modes, etc. Buff things, into your liking, and I can feel free to join in or avoid it. Dont nerf, into your liking, and screw me over in the process. I dont play this game for "thinking" and in-depth strategy. No no, no no. Please no.

There are also players who enjoy power fantasy and mindless fun, and there is no problem with that.