Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[zWhiteKz]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

So you really do have no idea what the term means.

I'm not categorising opinions as strawmen, I'm categorising arguments. You can have your opinion, that's absolutely fine, I'm not trying to take that from you.

It's when people purposefully misconstrue anothers point, it's when people put words in someone elses mouth, it's when you basically lie to give yourself an easy argument that I call you out for your strawman. That has absolutely nothing to do with opinion, and everything to do with dishonest posting.

Point taken but please next time try to post something that related to the topic disscuse and dont just "arguing" with other at the same time dont point out where they wrong like i been trying to do for so long. So this also mean @fluffysnowcap my "strawman" then, taking my quotes sometimes out of context and shove words into my mouth like i want a "hard-cap" on enemies and i dont want to fight "hard" enemies, k then that was refreshing

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Point taken but please next time try to post something that related to the topic disscuse and dont just "arguing" with other at the same time dont point out where they wrong like i been trying to do for so long.

Excuse me? Are you attempting to tell me that I cannot defend myself if someone uses such a ridiculous argument against me?

I've posted plenty of constructive comments in this thread as well as the others.

[fluffysnowcap]

By quoting you like this.

9 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

...So this also mean @fluffysnowcap my "strawman" then, taking my quotes sometimes out of context and shove words into my mouth like i want a "hard-cap" on enemies and i dont want to fight "hard" enemies, k then that was refreshing

I'm responding to a part of what you said and i do try to use three dots like so (...) to represent there is more that is missing; however I am under the Firm belief that you dislike how the scaling works and don't want to see enemy levels over level 1000, so the only ways to stop that is to either remove scaling as a whole or to put a cap on it. Now which one is it, do you want it removed or capped, are possibly suggesting alternative solution I've not seen? Because if you say neither without putting forwards your own idea you are merely being unconstructive and a hindrance.

[zWhiteKz]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Excuse me? Are you attempting to tell me that I cannot defend myself if someone uses such a ridiculous argument against me?

I've posted plenty of constructive comments in this thread as well as the others.

i never said i cant defend ur self just like this, but please try to torn it down a notch, we already have plenty of salt with this topic and i too want to defend my self but many people read this thread to find out why we dont need scaling not some internet throw shade back at each other, respect the reader 

[zWhiteKz]

5 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

By quoting you like this.

I'm responding to a part of what you said and i do try to use three dots like so (...) to represent there is more that is missing; however I am under the Firm belief that you dislike how the scaling works and don't want to see enemy levels over level 1000, so the only ways to stop that is to either remove scaling as a whole or to put a cap on it. Now which one is it, do you want it removed or capped, are possibly suggesting alternative solution I've not seen? Because if you say neither without putting forwards your own idea you are merely being unconstructive and a hindrance.

let me ask u something: Do u believe that DE designed the game on the account that we gonna fight 1k enemies in their mind when they 1st think of WF? No And do u think the basic mechanic/system we have right now support us to fight these enemies and called them "challenging content"? No. U choose to do the extreme method that the game not mean to be and asking for a scaling reward just to base on that and ignore the fact that most of the player base cant event fight lv 500 let alone lv 1k. See the problem here? the game just doesnt spin around u nor the upper top player of the player base, when DE make a feature/improve they base on the entire player base rather it MR1 player with a braton and lv1 Serration or the MR25 player with deck out Opticor riven with crit + crit damage + mutlishot and a negate on it that can basicly wipe out content till lv 1k ( depend on armor ofc.

Excuse me, did u just said i didnt put down any ideas? did u read my post or u just think "this idea is stupid" and dont even acknowledge that i try to think of something rather than slap on kuva scaling reward and we will be fine

Edited April 4, 2018 by zWhiteKz
Edit

[fluffysnowcap]

9 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

i never said i cant defend ur self just like this, but please try to torn it down a notch, we already have plenty of salt with this topic and i too want to defend my self but many people read this thread to find out why we dont need scaling not some internet throw shade back at each other, respect the reader 

Actually they're reading this thread to see the debate by the community and what the current census of opinion seems to be, or to way in upon the discussion. If you wish for this thread to contain only opinion witch say scaling is bad I would recommend moving onto a website where you have sole moderation privileges.

 

5 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

let me ask u something: Do u believe that DE designed the game on the account that we gonna fight 1k enemies in their mind when they 1st think of WF? No And do u think the basic mechanic/system we have right now support us to fight these enemies and called them "challenging content"? No. U choose to do the extreme method that the game not mean to be and asking for a scaling reward just to base on that and ignore the fact that most of the player base cant event fight lv 500 let alone lv 1k. See the problem here? the game just doesnt spin around u nor the upper top player of the player base, when DE make a feature/improve they base on the entire player base rather it MR1 player with a braton and lv1 Serration or the MR25 player with deck out Opticor riven with crit + crit damage + mutlishot and a negate on it that can basicly wipe out content till lv 1k ( depend on armor ofc.

When i was talking about level 1000 enemies i was using hyperbole, you've missed my idea as well. I have asked for void fissure style scaling to have the fifth increment reward toned down and to be added to all endless missions as well as the ability to leave survival. 

 

9 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Excuse me, did u just said i didnt put down any ideas? did u read my post or u just think "this idea is stupid" and dont even acknowledge that i try to think of something rather than slap on kuva scaling reward and we will be fine

I have yet to see you put forward an idea in the attempt to fix enemy scaling, all i have seen you do on that subject is go it's broken fix it. Then we can talk about updating a game mode that has barely been touched in the last 4 and 2 third years.

[Sonicbullitt]

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It's pretty sad when you have to resort to internet logical fallacy memes as a counter. That's no skill at all. It doesn't make you look smart. It was cool and witty maybe 10 years ago on the internet, but it's not impressive anymore. You could literally go though any post and scream "logical fallacy" "strawman" "slippery slope" without saying anything at all. It's lame and cliche

You do realise the term "logical fallacy" existed way before the internet right ? It is not a meme, the internet merely helped document their uses and explained what they mean, not create them. It is debate knowledge 101 at this point, if you knew what you were actually talking about you would know this, not to mention this very paragraph is a fallacy in of itself, the fallacy fallacy. You have no grounds to stand on you have not made a alternative suggestion nor have you given real reasons on why scaling shouldn't exist , you're arguments have been littered with nothing but logical fallacy and the only reason for your opposition, coming from selfish intentions it seems.

I and others have complete deconstructed these arguments and debunked them, so why are you still here ? From the looks of it you are here to do nothing more than hinder the discussion and create circular arguments that get us nowhere. Your place here has contributed nothing towards the reasoning of why balanced scaling cannot exist. 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

Do u think i agaisnt get a shjt load of kuva to roll the rivens i like? Heck no but just slapping scaling reward as a sollution for end of be all is not ok, if u play the game long enough u will see how bad scaling can be either it be enemies or reward. Reward people with good for challenging content yes! but u reward people for playing to the Extreme knowing that DE DONT WANT US TO STAY long is just wrong on the base of it and if u say "when did DE dont want us to do long surival?" just google WF scaling, there are tons and tons of broken scaling mechanic + 1 shotting either enemies or you not to mention bug spawning enemies + cells scale number of mobs can be spawn + the risk of the host disconnect when u take all that into account u think survival for long is a part of WF core gameplay right now? ( i mean we all have match that host disconnect and someway or another we lost stuff imo )

Also the whole edit "strawman", Opinion to me have value either it be wrong nor right, opinion is opinion, i dont catagorize them, i choose to listen to them even if it a waste of time, catagorize them into thing like "strawman" is just petty perspective, so i just gonna mememify it when ever i encounter u in any thread from now on @DeMonkey

I am sorry but there has never been a downside to rewards scaling in warframe in fact, besides the fissures I don't  think we have any kind of true scaling rewards, so you have no evidence to back the claim that scaling rewards are inherently negative. Reward scaling and enemy scaling are 2 different things, claiming scaling rewards will be inherently negative just because of the exponential growth of enemy armour late game is yet another logical fallacy called, composition/division. It is flawed reasoning as just because something has a relation to something else does not mean it is the same or equivalent to it.

As for trying to downplay our rebuttals and counter arguments, you have used yet another logical fallacy, you never learn do you ? If you do not want us to call you out on the flaws within your argument, do not use them , it is as simple as that. You need to realise that by using them as a crutch it makes your arguments look weak and invalid, it is why we can deconstruct these poorly argued points so easily.

You are using the same flawed arguments littered with fallcies as @Hypernaut1

10 hours ago, zWhiteKz said:

i do also want it change to what do u think i create this thread for? catering to DE that 200 is enough? 200 is not enough for sure but reward scaling with no rooftop just to reward for people have a lot of time vs the whole avg player base? that absurd and remember we DONT have the number but DE does, all we have is idea and hope DE gonna test it out and accept it the end. They listen but how many voices we have? a lot it take time and sugguestons, something like endless reward scaling with the current scaling mechanic WF have right now is not fun nor challenging, it just a fight of number for the most "efficent" way to get "as many kuva as u can" to put in "the slot machine" for more than 200 times. Keep in mind as i explain before if it scale endlessly u gonna see people go for 3-4hr + even 24hrs just to make tons and tons of kuva and then throw in ur face, DE face, player base face.

and please read ALL his post, most of his post focus on why endless should scale with no rooftop

Who said we want no cap to scaling ? I and others quite literally multiple times said, we want scaling to be balanced and to eventually cap off or to use the fissure system instead , what you have done here is you guessed it, misrepresented our arguments and created a strawman. In other words arguing against points we did not make, creating a false narrative in order to defeat our arguments. If you weren't using this straw man you should theoretically agree with us as we too do not want scaling to go on infinitely.

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

Point taken but please next time try to post something that related to the topic disscuse and dont just "arguing" with other at the same time dont point out where they wrong like i been trying to do for so long. So this also mean @fluffysnowcap my "strawman" then, taking my quotes sometimes out of context and shove words into my mouth like i want a "hard-cap" on enemies and i dont want to fight "hard" enemies, k then that was refreshing

He did not take you post out of context, nor is his claims false. You and @Hypernaut1 claim to not want scaling, yet have given no valid arguments and criticism as to why it will have negative effects on the game. From your words and actions what else are we supposed to think ? It doesn't matter if you claim to not want or be that thing,  if your words and actions are in complete opposite to what you claim. 

You guys do not want scaling rewards, you either want the same rewards or more than the current iteration of kuva survival, if the later, you want a mode which could possibly surpass kuva siphons rewards and while still only putting in 20 minutes. From the looks of it you guys are either lazy, don't want to fight harder enemies and are in opposition to us merely due to selfish reasoning it seems. So far you guys have not proved us otherwise, if you do not want to appear this way come up with better arguments and  especially stop using such an abundance of logical fallacies, this part is worst and makes the rest of your argument look weak. A house cannot be built on a weak foundation.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

51 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

You and @Hypernaut1 claim to not want scaling, yet have given no valid arguments and criticism as to why it will have negative effects on the game.

Preach. The only viable explanation as to why they do not want scaling rewards is because they are Riven merchants and want to still be able to charge 5000 platinum with the "I farmed a lot of Kuva for this roll" excuse.

[zWhiteKz]

Sure let see if the Void key system 2.0 aka endless kuva scaling will do to the game like u guys said, im really tired try to make u guys see the flaws of the game current state have already when shjt hit the fan we will see wat happen next. You guys clearly dont balance the game for the whole player base and just for the people who have the ability to do it to extreme measure. If scaling in other games have teach me so far that scaling can only be build on foundation of rock "solid" mechanic while in WF right now it a crack down wall that player keep putting paper only it in hope that wont crumble down in time but it does and it just gonna hurt everthing in the long time. Need example? Melee 3.0 where the range of each weapons might or might not be mention about.

Edit: also note to ur self that the fissure system work as u have a "relic" to crack everytime for the next bonus not just sit around and kill stuff for LS in mission, and if u say "we gonna sacrafice some kuva even more kuva" then it just show that u guys just want big fat kuva for ur own benefit and not want to balance the game mode to be more apeal for all people, also do u think im fine with the 3.5k kuva each roll? fk no it cost a lot just to use the "slot machine" but the system take root in WF for too long now making any change gonna take time and like i said ENDLESS scaling is not a sollution if u see how the game change from scratch to now with/without the riven system

Edited April 4, 2018 by zWhiteKz
Edit

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

7 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

im really tired try to make u guys see the flaws of the game current state have already when shjt hit the fan we will see wat happen next.

The flaws of the game according to you is the enemy scaling, which we all know will never be fixed because DE are too far into the game now. You actually don't have any argument against scaling rewards. Just your opinion, that it would be bad.....somehow.

9 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

You guys clearly dont balance the game for the whole player base and just for the people who have the ability to do it to extreme measure

What are you talking about? Endless missions can be done by anyone. No one's asking for an endless mission exclusively for MR20 and over. You don't have to be a hardened veteran to do a long survival run.

11 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

If scaling in other games have teach me so far that scaling can only be build on foundation of rock "solid" mechanic while in WF right now it a crack down wall that player keep putting paper only it in hope that wont crumble down in time but it does and it just gonna hurt everthing in the long time

How? How is it going to hurt anything? Please stop repeating this completely hollow statement and actually back it up with evidence. How will scaling Kuva hurt Warframe at all, be it in the long run or the near future?

12 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Need example? Melee 3.0 where the range of each weapons might or might not be mention about.

How does that relate at all to what we're talking about?

14 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

ENDLESS scaling is not a sollution if u see how the game change from scratch to now with/without the riven system

Again, I see no damage to anything apart from the Riven economy. Come up with any actual argument. Not clown logic.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:37 AM, zWhiteKz said:

Snip

You are doing research, looking at numbers, but you're not connecting the Dots. Armor scaling is not a problem. Something's only a problem if there is no way to beat it. Corrosive, Radiation, Finisher, Slash/Slash+Viral, Corrosive Projection, Mag, Banshee w/ 1st Aug, Frost, Shattering Impact, Hydroidw/ 1st Aug, Ash w/1st Aug, Nekros, Oberon, Trinity w/ 3rd Aug, or Unairu. There's many many ways to destroy armor, and just like how damage takes off health, everything here takes off armor, thus armor is not a problem, it's a challenge. A challenge in warframe? What a revolution lol
A level 9999 Heavy Gunner has 24,961,138.29 armor. You'd think with all the math that goes into this that this level seems impossible, but it takes only 60 Corrosive procs to remove this. This is possible with 1 mag of Pox or many other weapons. With Shattering Impact, this will take only 84 hits, which is still fast.4 Corrosive Projections aura is a classic method, but solo, you can use a mag with Fracturing Crush, 25 corrosive procs and 2 polarize. 250% PS frost, 2 cast of Reckoning of 170% PS, 145% PS Ash Seeking Shuriken, 145% PS Banshee Sonic Fracture, up to 3 Hydroid Corroding Barrage casts, and a 223% PS trinity with Abating Link. This is not to mention finishers, even without CL Dagger can take up to level 4000s with a good weapon, slash procs ignoring armor, and viral halves health, doubling this effect, and with a good weapon, up to 400k slash proc dps solo without abilities is possibility.

So with all this, this proves that armor is only a scaling problem if you are ignoring it as a challenge. And damage certainly isn't a problem, not with the ability for us to reach damage cap with a single frame. I feel like you're doing the research, tryna get the math right, but you get intimidated by the numbers. This is where experience comes in, which many of us have in spades, playing for much longer than you have.

Now that scaling has been steeled, let's get into the time. Time is a problem, yes. Endurance runners who have time should not be the balance point, but the levels they fight, SHOULD. You have to remember, long long ago, before you played, the highest level we had was 50. Only way to pass that was to go endgame, thus the 1 hour survival run for prime parts became famous. This is back in 2015. Then, people asked for challenge because our gear was getting stronger than the content itself, thus DE went to make sorties, based on what the average run level stopped at. which was 100. They tested the waters with an event called the Phoenix Intercept (Still my favorite event to date), and then came out with Trials. Then we got sorties once the missions were a hit. Just to let you know, at this time, there was no Acolyte mods, no reworks (maybe 2), no Condition Overlord, 3 primed mods total, and the newest frame was Nezha, whose parts was a reward from sorties (If you can imagine that grind). Also, the community was rather less educated on the game itself, and only people who did many many tests and mathed out stuff new the game to its core. Now we got this, and our gear has never been stronger (I mean overall, we've had stronger single things before), and thus, as shown here, people are finally again craving for a challenge. This is why we must implement the levels of endurance runners, but without the needed time.

Because of this, I circle back to how a checkpoint/milestone system really solves everything. You get scaling rewards (Up to a point), you get access to the challenging levels we desire, leisure to do it at your time (5 minutes filling in time for a survival), and progression over time. It's a win/win for everyone. You cannot get scared of these levels only because you don't think they're possible. They're extremely possible, in fact, sometimes, easy. If you can''t do that yet, then guess what, that just means you have room to grow. You have an interest in the math and conceptual side of warframe. If you continue on this, you will get really really far into the game, but you cannot rush it and peel off prematurely. Believe me, I've done this before and looked the fool. Luckily the internet passes these things over.

About the numbers you wanted for scaling, I propose 2 things. A, have kuva gathered scale along with tower health and have the kuva gathered be based on tower health, with percentage taken off from percentage of tower health remaining. Other option is just straight up scaling kuvs, which might just be better. I propose that the amount of kuva received start at 200, but every rotation, the bonus is increased by 5% end of end, thus the formula would be 200*1.05^Number of rotations. The cap will hit at around 400, or double the kuva from the start, and this happens 75 minutes in, since 5% end of over takes 15 rotations to get to, which is 75 minutes in a survival, which a checkpoint system, this is not a prbolem. Since kuva filters can be used once every 90 seconds (spawn of Life support), at perfection, you can get up to 14 life support systems in 21 minutes. With my scaling system, at 21 minutes, you'll get 3214 kuva at best (wihtout boosters and smeeta, which go both ways). This is 400 more than currently and sits at 153 kuva per minutes. This is still lower than siphons, but is reliable and there for the fun. Current kuva is at 133 per minute. After 75 minutes of survival, this cap can be implemented, and the kuva you'll be getting sits at 267 per minute. This is still less than Floods, but is more reliable. Now I can actually vote for increasing the base number to 250, but it's 3 am and I got work tomorrow. Think on it.

Edited April 10, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[zWhiteKz]

Do u think kuva is just riven ? So in ur eyes kuva is just riven wow and no other future content can be affect by kuva? ... that sad and u think i care bout riven market? i dont most of my rivens i roll MYSELF i farm at this point around 5-10mil kuva i think, i done put my time down to do all of the farm for good riven and test again 3-4hr+ enemies in survival and i see the core problem of it SCALING. And if u dont see how scaling gonna affect future content/feature then i have no hope for u + u dont want to fix a problem just because it take root in WF is just bad thinking in general it like "our gouverment is already rot to the core so why we need it fixed anyway". Also u do not acknowleght the out-rage the old void key system bring to the table. and again all u guys want is scaling reward and no better idea rather than just force DE to make it scale that not constructive that destructive.

Edit: ^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes this is the idea in my mind, thank you for pointting this out for the people that said "enemies hard so we get more reward" and with enemies scale with no rooftop so reward scale like that too? yes and no

Edited April 4, 2018 by zWhiteKz
Edit: Bravo upper post

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

57 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Do u think kuva is just riven ? So in ur eyes kuva is just riven wow and no other future content can be affect by kuva?

Really? You're going with that now? You literally have zero arguments. Only assumptions.

57 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

u dont want to fix a problem just because it take root in WF is just bad thinking in general

(Faceplam) You really do not listen at all do you. Alright then Che Guevara, how do you propose DE fix scaling? How would you take the very core system of Warframe and fix it, without completely ruining the game? 

Also comparing scaling, a gameplay mechanic, to a corrupt government shows just how ridiculous you are.

57 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

And if u dont see how scaling gonna affect future content/feature then i have no hope for u

How do you know what role Kuva will take in the future? You don't. You're just going off on pure assumptions. 

57 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Also u do not acknowleght the out-rage the old void key system bring to the table

Some people got outraged I'm sure, just like how people get outraged at everything these days. If we were to sit here and list all the "outrageous" events in this game, we'd be dead before we finished. Endless Kuva scaling will not damage the game. It will not do any of the vague bad things you claim it will. You simply have no argument.

57 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

all u guys want is scaling reward and no better idea rather than just force DE to make it scale that not constructive that destructive.

You have absolutely zero evidence of how it will be destructive. You keep going "oh what about future content". What about it? It hasn't been implemented yet because it's future content. You act as if DE are going to base all future content around the Kuva resource. I'll say it once more, loud and clear;

Stop using assumptions and flawed logic as evidence. It does not work.

Please name us one, real solid damage Kuva scaling would do to Warframe. No assumptions. Hard evidence.

Edited April 4, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[fluffysnowcap]

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

Do u think kuva is just riven ?

So far, yes.

 

 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

So in ur eyes kuva is just riven wow and no other future content can be affect by kuva?

That's up to DE not us.

 

 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

...i farm at this point around 5-10mil kuva i think, i done put my time down to do all of the farm for good riven and test again 3-4hr+ enemies in survival and i see the core problem of it SCALING.

So you farmed up to 10 mill kuva, and have done 4 hours survivals, as you say and yet you said this.

14 hours ago, zWhiteKz said:

if the ability to leave survival is a good idea dont u think DE already do that .... i mean like u said they did that for defense and intercept then why not survive while they at it? please try to think more deeply before making any asumption

Just the hell do you think most people play like? you bring up the MR.2's with there MK1 bratton then talk about how scaling is bad because of the 3 hour mark?

 

 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

...And if u dont see how scaling gonna affect future content/feature then i have no hope for u + u dont want to fix a problem just because it take root in WF is just bad thinking in general it like "our gouverment is already rot to the core so why we need it fixed anyway".

ugh, you miss the point we said about scaling enemies, so let's try a flowery examples using a government metaphors.

"The current issue with scaling is much like the current issue with North Korea, there is a fundamental flaw at the very heart of the Society based upon a very very core feature or should we say how a person is elected and governs, and replacing said feature / method of government and election will create a fundamentally different Society."

 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

Also u do not acknowledge the out-rage the old void key system bring to the table.

What out-rage? Keys were relatively plentiful, and endless keys allowed for insane return on investment. Those days were fantastic for the Haves, and i distinctly remember carrying a good few have not's along to help them get some sweet sweet booty.

 

1 hour ago, zWhiteKz said:

and again all u guys want is scaling reward and no better idea rather than just force DE to make it scale that not constructive that destructive.

Have you not read any of my suggestions? Ok here they are in bullet points this time.

 

• Allow players to SOLO extract from survival mission and keep that loot.

 

• Add a void style scaling to all endless missions with the fifth rotation bonus being a planet rare resource, Kuva on the Kuva fortress.

 

• Add spy like catches to all short missions that contains relics, mods, endo and so on. To help increase the Loot variety on the star chart so you can acquire endless only relics without requiring to run a endless mission

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

@fluffysnowcap Don't bother. He'll just continue using false logic and assumptions about the future. 

[zWhiteKz]

Like u guys said we dont have anything in our hand and we dont know wat DE got for future content yet so balance it will that fact, when u balance a game u try to see if that balance affect the future stuff u put in ur game in a long run or not that called game/software development. Maybe implement endless scaling reward work for now but in long run it turn kuva into just another nano spores and render it basicly all over the place when everyone finish with there rivens. And i dont assumpt anything that doesnt base on the history of Warframe Remember why DE nerf trinity buff to 75%? remember why Valkyr Hysteria energy consumption? for what? to prevent EXTREME long run and just flat out minigate damage of scaling enemies to 0% so tell me where is my fall-out logic? everything i say and stand for is in Warframe history nothing that i make up (except ideas for another way to gain more kuva with interactive method) rather than just scale reward and done. Scaling problem is still there and not gonna go away any time soon but if it not fixed at it is right now it just gonna make it harder to put new content in and balance it with hundred of other stuff around it. Why do u think DE try to do house-keeping update right now? it Old that why and so the scaling system that is flaw and the short window of "either u 1 shot enemies or they 1 shot u". Also u think i only do 4 endure survivals? now that is assumption

Also when u said it only affect Riven market and those who sell for 5k+, sure it will but remember DE livestock is the economy system too

Edited April 4, 2018 by zWhiteKz

[Pleb-Prime]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

'Don't make survival better because I don't want to do survival' is just selfish, there's already plenty of options for people who don't want to do survival.

After all that banging on about strawmen, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this. It shouldn't even be need to be said, but the opinion that kuva scaling will make survival "better" is not one shared by your opposition here. If they actually believed that, they would be arguing with, not against, you.

As for the part about people being "selfish", just more hypocrisy really. You want more Kuva, and you don't seem to care how it will affect anyone else, people who now will feel forced to sit through long survivals, simply because it's the best option.

My opinion is that no repeatable method of Kuva farming should be better than any other, period. If siphons are currently better, give survivals a flat buff and be done with it. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Thargoid

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Thargoid said:

After all that banging on about strawmen, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this. It shouldn't even be need to be said, but the opinion that kuva scaling will make survival "better" is not one shared by your opposition here. If they actually believed that, they would be arguing with, not against, you.

As for the part about people being "selfish", just more hypocrisy really. You want more Kuva, and you don't seem to care how it will affect anyone else, people who now will feel forced to sit through long survivals, simply because it's the best option.

My opinion is that no repeatable method of Kuva farming should be better than any other, period. If siphons are currently better, give survivals a flat buff and be done with it. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Hardly a strawman.

Their reasoning for not wanting survival scaling was some pay to win nonsense and "I don't want to run survival".

Now is scaling the be all and end all solution? No, it needs tinkering for certain. But it is a fact that Kuva Survival can be made objectively better (so can basically every other mission) and they opposed any and all propositions because they don't want to run survival.

Nothing I said was a strawman, nothing I said was incorrect.

And no, if you read through the thread you'd see I don't care for Kuva, I want scaling on principle. Couldn't give a flying fiddle about Rivens, I don't use them.

(Do you see what you did there by the way? Yeah, that was a strawman.)

So no, not selfish at all. Nice try though. 

[zWhiteKz]

Then why just play survival as it is and see kuva as a side bonus, why ask for kuva scaling so u have a "motivation" to do it? Hypocrite much? People who do survival for endure run just do it, they dont care if there is a bonus or not, but for the people yelling kuva scaling is just want to kuva, simple, and that not endure runner, that kuva addicts aka slot machine players

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

12 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

why ask for kuva scaling so u have a "motivation" to do it? Hypocrite much?

How does asking for a survival mission where the rewards are actually worth doing long runs hypocritical? What planet are you on?

12 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

People who do survival for endure run just do it, they dont care if there is a bonus or not

As someone who actively does survival missions daily, I can tell you I do care about the bonuses. I like Survival, but it's unfortunately merely a hobby and not an actual gameplay investment. Is it really so wrong for me to ask if my preferred mission type is actually as effective at gaining rewards as the other missions are?

12 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

the people yelling kuva scaling is just want to kuva, simple, and that not endure runner

Wrong. Completely. We want a survival mission type that actually feels rewarding the further we endure. The further we go, the better the rewards get. Put any resource in there and make it scale. Doesn't matter what it is. Kuva, Polymer, Nano Spores or anything like that. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, zWhiteKz said:

Then why just play survival as it is and see kuva as a side bonus, why ask for kuva scaling so u have a "motivation" to do it? 

We've gone over this numerous times in this thread, stop being obtuse.

It's about being appropriately rewarded for the risk that you're taking. Higher level enemies = higher risk which should = higher reward.

Would you be happy if Kuva Floods also gave 600 Kuva per mission? Most of us enjoy the variety of fighting higher level enemies that aren't brainless cannon fodder, don't we? By this vein of logic even if Kuva Floods gave 600 Kuva it would be wrong to ask for the reward to increase because "people will run it anyway".

That's just silly. (And before someone cries about that being a strawman, it's not, it's a logical extrapolation of their argument as it has been presented.)

Floods have higher level enemies than Siphons and have a greater reward, Bounties have higher tiers that have increasing amounts of Endo in the drop table. Fissures have lengthy scaling that we've discussed implementing into all endless missions.

So instead of attempting to shut down all discussion on this matter by making a thread stating "we" don't need it, why don't you try and think up some ways we can have it that's "fair" for everyone, because getting the same reward despite taking on added risk is in stark contrast to the rest of the game that actually does reward you for fighting higher level enemies.

[zWhiteKz]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

How does asking for a survival mission where the rewards are actually worth doing long runs hypocritical? What planet are you on?

Earth! and i never said the CURRENT endless kuva is good, the reward pay out for the trouble we go throught is not enough, we all know that but it doesnt mean make it scale to supass flood is a sollution. Of course we want reward fairly for our effort, i myself get it but pay pack tons and tons of kuva just gonna end up making it just another nano spores.

I still sit here waiting for DE to release harder Node rather than sit in a mission for 40-60 mins for it to scale to the "challenging mark", and yes i did try to come up with idea that doesnt catering to scaling which will reward everyone not just the player who have the ability to do the "challenging mark", kuva scaling just gonna force people to the meta and make the game less diversity in the end, we all know that. Also where did i shut down anyone opinion/idea ? i explain why it is bad and that it, wherether u keep using that idea or not is upto me

[fluffysnowcap]

41 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Then why just play survival as it is and see kuva as a side bonus, why ask for kuva scaling so u have a "motivation" to do it? Hypocrite much? People who do survival for endure run just do it, they dont care if there is a bonus or not, but for the people yelling kuva scaling is just want to kuva, simple, and that not endure runner, that kuva addicts aka slot machine players

Mate I have said all endless missions in nearly every single post. Thanks for saying I want only kuva, and assuming I don't want ophela to also scale for plastics or polimur. Not like I burn the over a mill of both since the dojo update came out.

[NukeSpear]

The OP is surely much better at adulating the staff than he is at maths. The post completely overlooks the need for a better risk vs reward system, which has been pointed by many of the posters here and on reddit. Instead, he mistakenly treats Kuva survival as if it was just like the other, non-endless kuva missions, comparing the rewards of the three modes directly on his "perfect world" thing.

I have to hope whoever in DE is reading this kind of post is able to see through the BS and understand what really needs to be done.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

47 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

but it doesnt mean make it scale to supass flood is a sollution

How many times do I need to say "scaling cap" before it registers with you?

31 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

i myself get it but pay pack tons and tons of kuva just gonna end up making it just another nano spores.

Since when did having a lot of resources become a bad thing?

32 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

yes i did try to come up with idea that doesnt catering to scaling which will reward everyone not just the player who have the ability to do the "challenging mark",

Again, implying that anyone but high level veteran players can't survive for more than ten minutes in a survival mission. Your idea is ridiculous.

33 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

kuva scaling just gonna force people to the meta and make the game less diversity in the end, we all know that.

You're just trolling now. Meta is not a requirement for long survival runs. Maybe actually try doing a survival mission with other people and you might just realise that not everyone runs around with a Tigris Prime.

35 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

i explain why it is bad and that it,

You explained nothing and still haven't. You started off by quoting a perfect world which is entirely irrelevant since no such thing exists, then you've just gone off the rails even further by acting like Kuva scaling would destroy the entire game based on nothing but assumptions, acted like you know exactly what DE are going to do with Kuva in the future, used complete clown logic and just plain trolling.

The TL:DR of your entire "argument" is basically; "Kuva scaling is bad, because I say it is."

That's literally all you have. No evidence to explain why it's bad. No evidence to back up your claim that it would become bad. Nothing. Assumptions and ridiculous logic.