Frame Based Energy Regen

[Altre]

Skip to the bottom for my point. I ramble a bit here...

I know we've had posts about universal energy regen before, but I haven't seen much on the idea of it being an independent stat. I'm a big fan of the Armored Core series and I think my love of playing with numbers along with having mobility is what drew me to this game in the first place (besides the Dark Sector connection).

When I started playing, I was under the impression that frame powers were strong and energy didn't regen because powers should be reserved for when needed. I learned about the energy regen aura and thought it was the end all be all mod to have for higher level players. I also thought that the game was going to have Dark Sector combat pacing and was not aware that it was/would turn into a horde game.

In a low target game, making abilities sparse makes sense. In a horde game where many elite targets can charge you at once, along with fodder enemies, abilities become a requirement (unless you're playing a rogue-like/horde hybrid, which I thought is where they were going back when you could only die 4 times per day with a frame...).

Now, with things like Sanctuary Onslaught, Eidolons, and formerly Raids, you almost have to have an energy source outside of your frame to be efficient. Your source can come from 2 frames, one focus school, or pizzas. Syndicates have supplemental energy effects, but they can't feed a hungry frame all the time. These things usually have to fuel the entire team.

Forming teams with the 2 energy frames is doable, but not always convenient. The focus school is a debated topic. Pizzas don't take an exorbitant amount of resources, but you have to take time away from other tasks sometimes just to get polymer for them. I only get anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours to play 3 to 5 days a week, so I don't have time like I used to for farming polymer and making progress elsewhere. Pizzas should be optional, not essential, to efficient frame usage. This could be a whole other conversation probably, so I won't linger on pizzas.

My point is, why don't we give each frame x amount of regeneration as an innate stat since ability usage is pretty much essential now? In Armored Core, there were generators that had high capacity and slow output, low capacity and high output, or about medium on both. I feel like this would be an excellent addition to the game. Instead of modding for efficiency, a frame could mod for high regen and have a lower energy cap or have a high cap and low output. It would expand gameplay options, lower energy stress on lower tiers, maybe help with peoples pizza addiction (only in game, unfortunately), and accent higher tier gameplay.

 

I'd love to start a discussion for refine this idea, so please feel free to throw ideas around here!

Edited April 26, 2018 by Altre

[(PSN)Croewe]

Last time I brought up passive regen people didn't take to the idea. They do seem to like active regen through skilled gameplay.

[Altre]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

Last time I brought up passive regen people didn't take to the idea. They do seem to like active regen through skilled gameplay.

Trin and Harrow will still be useful for higher tier content. Other than them and using 1 school for regen, what form of regen requires skill?

[Hyro1]

Seems like u guys don't get why this is a bad idea or why Nullies and Engery Leech eximus exist, no way something like this would even be implented

[lukinu_u]

I think we shouldn't have passive regen, but more a specific way per warframe that rely on their gameplay to get energy.

Saryn's energy regen when hitting spore while toxic lash is active, or Nidus getting energy for each target hit by virulence are perfect example of this, but each warframe should have one.

[Eyrfith]

I don't see the problem with the system as it is (in this aspect)

Energy is a Privilege, not a Right

Edited April 26, 2018 by Eyrfith

[Altre]

Just now, lukinu_u said:

I think we shouldn't have passive regen, but more a specific way per warframe that rely on their gameplay to get energy.

Saryn's energy regen when hitting spore while toxic lash is active, or Nidus getting energy for each target hit by virulence are perfect example of this, but each warframe should have one.

I like this idea. It's still tied to the frame, at least.

 

For anyone else that likes throwing out that "you just don't get it" bs, please explain rather than negate an idea without some input to balance it out.

It's not that the system has a problem, its that it could be better.

[Eyrfith]

Then why not do the same with health? And shield? And ammo?

More health pool or more health regen
More shield pool or more shield regen
More ammo pool or more ammo regen

You have weapons to kill enemies if you are low on energy while you regen something via energy siphon, zenurik, or any frame ability. It's not like if you're at 0 energy you can't do anything

 

I think your idea would lessen the impact on guns in the game because spammy frames like ember, or ash, wouldn't need them that much.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Eyrfith

[Altre]

1 hour ago, Eyrfith said:

Then why not do the same with health? And shield? And ammo?

More health pool or more health regen
More shield pool or more shield regen
More ammo pool or more ammo regen

You have weapons to kill enemies if you are low on energy while you regen something via energy siphon, zenurik, or any frame ability. It's not like if you're at 0 energy you can't do anything

Actually, small health regen may not be a bad idea for creatures made of technocyte, shields have plenty of options for higher regen (along with it's own issues), and there are mods that mitigate ammo deficiency.

Weapons are great, but the abilities also play a pivotal role in the game. Otherwise, may as well not have abilities now that we have rivens or whatever, right? Having weapons is not an excuse for us not having innate energy regeneration.

I appreciate the feedback, but unless I can get a valid reason to not have even a tiny ounce of energy regen, I don't care to have people just throwing out responses wholly negating it. I'd rather have no conversation than a negative one and that's not why I posted the inquiry.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Altre

[(XBOX)Pendergast891]

Spoiler Warning

 

Maybe they could have it that for each second (or however long idc) that you spend in void mode as an operator it regenerates energy for your frame. It shouldn't be so much that it overshadows or outclass zenurik energy dash, and it would give some incentive to swap to operator for those who haven't done much with focus yet. Or they increase the amount of energy that void dashing enemies give.

Edited April 27, 2018 by (XB1)Pendergast891

[XaoGarrent]

Moving the energy regen out of Zenurik and into the frames themselves, as well as reworking energy modding to allow for more options, would be an objective improvement to the game. Unfortunately, so many people around here are so incredibly entrenched in the way things are that even pushing the game further in the direction it's already leaning in is going to have trouble gaining support. We're pretty much stuck in this one foot in one foot out approach to energy unless the devs decide to do this on their own accord.

[blazinvire]

Ah, ye ole Binary Energy problems in a nutshell.

I've seen and offered a bunch of energy system suggestions in the past, though it never seemed any of them picked up enough traction to get any significant notice from DE, but I'm not adverse to trying again.

Passive regen is a funny one, I remember back when Zenurik's regen was passive, a constant 4 energy a second, not really an infinite flood per se, compared to how fast and hectic this game can get, with energy leech and magnet, 4 per second is actually kinda insignificant.
But what it did was smooth the gaps, between foraging for energy orbs or relying on Rage/Adrenaline or Energy Siphon, it kept your energy at this weird state where you sort of always had some to play with, but not an endless supply like Pizzas and Trinities tend to provide.

I think a form of passive energy regen not tethered to Zenurik would probably bandaid some of the energy issues in this game, so might work for the short term, but I feel like the energy system needs a bigger revamp in order to smooth out the whole experience.

[Loswaith]

11 hours ago, Hyro1 said:

Seems like u guys don't get why this is a bad idea or why Nullies and Engery Leech eximus exist, no way something like this would even be implented

Nullies and energy leech exist because the enemy react as if the Tenno have no powers at all.  It is more of an AI, or the effect of the powers issue.  They are simple a cure to the symptom not the cause.

 

11 hours ago, Eyrfith said:

I don't see the problem with the system as it is (in this aspect)

Energy is a Privilege, not a Right

Energy is actually a right, because powers are one of the core aspects of making Warframe different to other games.  The game fundamentally changes (to a shooter with the movement set, and much more generic frames) without said powers and energy is simply the medium for those powers.

 

11 hours ago, Eyrfith said:

Then why not do the same with health? And shield? And ammo?

More health pool or more health regen
More shield pool or more shield regen
More ammo pool or more ammo regen
...

There is no reason DE couldn't do that as well.

In fact early on in Warframe some frames did actually regen shields faster than others (most notable was Ember).  Even now the more shields you have the faster it regenerates.  So it is quite possible to give frames various regeneration rates native to each frame which would only assist to make them more distinct from each other as well.

I don't really see the original idea having a great deal of impact overall but more a nice little feature to help frames differ slightly more.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Loswaith

[Altre]

4 hours ago, Loswaith said:

In fact early on in Warframe some frames did actually regen shields faster than others (most notable was Ember).  Even now the more shields you have the faster it regenerates.  So it is quite possible to give frames various regeneration rates native to each frame which would only assist to make them more distinct from each other as well.

 

My thoughts on it where that caster frames could have innately higher regen similar to this (I straight up do not remember a lot of the earlier functions like this for some reason), say 2 energy per second (maybe scaling with the frame level in quarters starting at 0.5). CQ frames could have around half of that and so on based on the intended use of the frame.

On top of that, where we have streamline and fleeting expertise to raise the cap, we could also have a mod that amplifies regen outside of the aura mod.

It would certainly affect frames with spammable abilities more than frames with channeled abilities, so there would still be a need to build for capacity over regen in that case. If spamming becomes an issue (which it already is with some builds), introduce a void sickness that lowers the effectiveness of the spammed ability by 10% per x amount of uses. Maybe limit that to AOE abilities, like Banshees augmented 4.

I feel like at that point, people would feel comfortable coming out of that Zenurik shell and play around with other schools a bit more. Not sure why, but I also feel like it would help with new player retention. Maybe not having to worry about grinding for pizza would give a little relief on that end and I'm sure not many new players have a Trin or Harrow following them around.

[NezuHimeSama]

16 hours ago, Altre said:

Trin and Harrow will still be useful for higher tier content. Other than them and using 1 school for regen, what form of regen requires skill?

Trin doesn't require skill, but there are other forms of energy regen in frames, such as Saryn's spore popping.

[Altre]

6 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Trin doesn't require skill, but there are other forms of energy regen in frames, such as Saryn's spore popping.

As someone suggested and as I previously stated, I think regen tied to abilities is a valid option, too. If they could figure that into the majority of frames, that's be great! Maybe Excal could get energy back by hitting enemies with his 1 or 3 that have been affected by his 2? Rhino similarly with his 1, 3, and 4? I know many have cost reduction, but many 1 abilities have no other function than damage, which becomes useless compared to weapons and CC at a point. This would incentivize use of 1 abilities! :D

[NezuHimeSama]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with the topic at all. I think deeper energy regen mechanics would be great.

[Altre]

1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with the topic at all. I think deeper energy regen mechanics would be great.

I'm in agreement, I think ideas like the one proposed are excellent. :D

Base regen would still help bump your ability focused regen into play when you get hit by a nully or if you're swarmed by leeches (well, after you murder them, the regen could kick in).

Edited April 27, 2018 by Altre

[Deniiiise]

I find myself in complete agreement with this as well. No particular idea, any of them mentioned seem sensible. A reliance on RNG drops for energy orbs is just unpleasant and you WILL get screwed over sooner or later, no matter how remote the chance for an orb not dropping over any given amount of time is.

The only reason I went Zenurik as a focus school is to have some sort of reliable energy regen to begin with that doesn't require more grinding (polymers for pizzas...). Arcane Energize is out of reach for 90% of the player base (not a scientifically researched figure, merely a guess) and focus grinding for Zenurik is all nice and well, but focus IS easily one of the most common complaints about Warframe in general. So both of those are of questionable validity as a bandaid.

For me, as a non-veteran player, passive energy regen for every frame (which could be modded to increase even more) would go a long way to make the system seem more modern, add a lot of comfort and QoL and free me from the slavery of focus grinding for Zenurik. I'd really like to advance other schools but by the time I'm finally done with Zenurik, just so I can use my frame abilities, I imagine I'm done with the entire system as a whole.

Like I said in another thread, which is of course only personal opinion, but without the option to use frame abilities somewhat frequently at any given time, all that remains is a third person shooter with cool movement. I feel like frame abilities constitute 90% of the fun in general in Warframe. More occasions to use them -> Higher enjoyment in general!

[Guest]

I see a passive regen thread, I immediately agree to it. In fact, I'd say to ditch pizzas and Zenurik altogether if they would just give us passive regen of good speed. Of course the occasional orb for the channeling frame is perfectly fine.

Warframe should give more alternatives to playstyle, not turning so called "endgame" into cheesing using OP weapons and gun carriage frames.

[Altre]

19 minutes ago, Deniiiise said:

For me, as a non-veteran player, passive energy regen for every frame (which could be modded to increase even more) would go a long way to make the system seem more modern, add a lot of comfort and QoL and free me from the slavery of focus grinding for Zenurik. I'd really like to advance other schools but by the time I'm finally done with Zenurik, just so I can use my frame abilities, I imagine I'm done with the entire system as a whole.

Like I said in another thread, which is of course only personal opinion, but without the option to use frame abilities somewhat frequently at any given time, all that remains is a third person shooter with cool movement. I feel like frame abilities constitute 90% of the fun in general in Warframe. More occasions to use them -> Higher enjoyment in general!

Yuuuuussssssss.

 

12 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I see a passive regen thread, I immediately agree to it. In fact, I'd say to ditch pizzas and Zenurik altogether if they would just give us passive regen of good speed. Of course the occasional orb for the channeling frame is perfectly fine.

Warframe should give more alternatives to playstyle, not turning so called "endgame" into cheesing using OP weapons and gun carriage frames.

Yyyyyyuuuuussssssssss.

 

When the DS series went from mana to limited usage, I wondered what the point of magic was. Though it turned out to not be quite as severe as I thought, the fact remains that you're not killing everything solely with your magic, which is what a mage should do. The same concern lies in D&D as well, though it's the same case as the DS series (I guess the other way around, I'm sure Fromsoft adopted the D&D idea based on D&D).

I feel that frames shouldn't be limited to clunky systems or rng. There's a better model somewhere.

[blazinvire]

Well, from all the threads I've been in, I think there's a general consensus that some method of active energy recovery is welcomed.

The ideas I've seen in that regard usually involve the player dealing damage with things that aren't abilities, or gating strong ability use behind first using weak abilities a few times.

• I've seen this sort of thing in games like Tales of Symphonia, where basic attacks and blocks build up your effective mana, which kind of works for the game since most of the time you're weaving attacks between spells naturally.  Granted, the dedicated caster types tend to flail a bit at times...
• Skyforge I think also has something similar, where your basic attack builds up your power gauge, and you have a few other tricks where you can Execute enemies which provides a giant boost, but I can't say the 'dry' periods are overly avoidable or that much fun to deal with, as you're often left wailing on the enemy waiting for your power gauge to sloooowly charge.
• Saryn's toxic lash + spore combo certainly felt like a good direction to go, if slightly limiting your gameplay in a bizarre fashion, but it was nice demonstration of synergy and power use feeding into itself if you worked for it.

Otherwise, I've seen a variety of ideas that have passed by the wayside if you need some food for thought:

• There was the two-gauge system, one gauge for weak abilities that effectively let you spam the weak powers, and the other gauge for the strong abilities that you had to charge manually.
• Having a stupid-huge energy pool that starts full at the start of the mission, like 20,000 energy, and a built-in regen of around 5 energy per second, but there aren't any other sources of energy restoration.
• A heat gauge idea I had, where ability use builds up heat and you're never actually prevented from casting, it just accrues temporary penalties the more the gauge overflows.
  • Later had a tiered heat gauge idea, one fast gauge for small stuff, overflowing into a slow gauge if you get too spammy, and then into a Burn gauge where penalties start accruing.
• There was a bandwidth idea, that choked energy restoration by turning every energy restoration source into regeneration that hard capped at like 10 per second or something, and could build up a buffer to keep restoring over time but ultimately made spamming energy restoration unfeasible.
• I think there was also one that reminded me of Dishonored's system, where energy is refunded over time but if you cast before it's fully refunded you effectively lose that bit as it's kind of overwritten by the next power refunding itself.