Compelling Argument for Universal Vacuum

[Troll_Logic]

3 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Vacuum is a convenience mod.

Not even a little bit.

There is a universal vacuum.  That's the player.  Most players don't know that the vacuum in the sentinel doesn't pick up the mods.  It simply vacuums them so the player can collect them.  However, until DE gets the player pickup to work correctly, vacuum is mandatory.  I can't tell you how often I've right next by energy and health orbs and have had to turn around and go back to pick them up.  How I've run within a few feet of resources and not picked them up.  

As long as the personal pickup radius is 75% effective, vacuum is mandatory.

 

BTW, once personal pickup radius is 100% effective, that is a solid argument that vacuum is mandatory still.  Some people may not need or want it, but it is very far from "convenience." 

[(XBOX)RPColten]

The Vacuum mod as it exists is literally by definition in the English language a "convenience". It exists to make an existing task [Picking up items] simpler and easier. It does not make picking up items possible nor does it accomplish anything not already doable by the player already.

Your personal experience with vacuum seeming to be necessary is just as valid as my experience that shows it isn't necessary. Both experiences are equally valid so they won't go anywhere in this kind of discussion/argument.

[Almagnus1]

3 hours ago, VadiseReikaz said:

And Coffee 2.0.

That's the old version... try 3.0 =P

[Almagnus1]

46 minutes ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

The Vacuum mod as it exists is literally by definition in the English language a "convenience". It exists to make an existing task [Picking up items] simpler and easier. It does not make picking up items possible nor does it accomplish anything not already doable by the player already.

Your personal experience with vacuum seeming to be necessary is just as valid as my experience that shows it isn't necessary. Both experiences are equally valid so they won't go anywhere in this kind of discussion/argument.

Except that the ones that say Vacuum isn't necessary are a bunch of masochists.

Oh, and they're also wrong.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats funny and adorable at the same time, i want 10.

hopefully moa pets will have it

[Altre]

Baby, I understand what you're putting down. This is a QoL improvement that goes fine with a glass of hot cocoa and everyone loves the idea, they just don't know it.

[Troll_Logic]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

The Vacuum mod as it exists is literally by definition in the English language a "convenience". It exists to make an existing task [Picking up items] simpler and easier. It does not make picking up items possible nor does it accomplish anything not already doable by the player already.

I think you're missing my point.

For me, and I doubt my experience is unique, the built-in personal collection area isn't 100%.  Vacuum isn't 100% either, but the larger area of collection makes the smaller personal area 100%.  If I've explained that clearly.

Now, you can say that the personal collection behavior of the tenno is good enough for you and that's fine.  But it isn't for me.  It isn't a hardware or connection issue for me either.  Collection area isn't consistent and that's the problem.

 

I could even make a case that vacuum isn't a convenience issue because the game is farming based and anything that increases resource collection is integral to the player and game.  I understand your logic, but I think it's too general to apply.  Using your logic, primary and secondary weapons could be considered a convenience.

[Azimbee]

Quote

The Vacuum mod as it exists is literally by definition in the English language a "convenience". It exists to make an existing task [Picking up items] simpler and easier. It does not make picking up items possible nor does it accomplish anything not already doable by the player already.

Your personal experience with vacuum seeming to be necessary is just as valid as my experience that shows it isn't necessary. Both experiences are equally valid so they won't go anywhere in this kind of discussion/argument.

Departing from my joking tone for a moment, wouldn't convenience in this case not fly as a counterargument? It's true it already serves a function that people can already do but having it on means you don't have to.

Except in a grinding game that means saved time. Time is saved regardless of whether you can go over there and manually pick something up. You still have to do it.

Calling "convenience" and dismissing it as that does a disservice without this context. It's legitimately more efficient to have it than not have it. It's not just simply saving you work, it's saving you time. This makes it as powerful as any other mod.

Or are you going to make the argument that damage mods to kill enemies faster is a convenience too? (Probably not right? We'll probably agree on that.)

Edited May 22, 2018 by TheLegendTamer
Forgot to properly quote, woops

[(XBOX)RPColten]

I would argue heavily against it bolstering farming due to it not in any way increasing or modifying item drops. Enemies must be killed and items must be picked up. Vacuum only makes the pick-up phase faster, ie. more convenient for the player. Yes it absolutely makes the pick up easier. I'm not arguing against this. What I am arguing against is the belief that it should be allowed to be used with little to no consequence. It may be just a convenience mod but it is very strong for what it does and that strength should reasonably come with a price.

It is an upgrade, and upgrades should not be free.

[Altre]

I've changed my stance on uni vac. I think that picking up loot should be a minigame for each piece where you have to manipulate each finger in an attempt to grab the loot before it disappears. Take that, people who want wanton luxuries like uni vac! This game isn't for casuals who want loot handed to them!

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

I would argue heavily against it bolstering farming due to it not in any way increasing or modifying item drops.

But it picks up more items automatically.  Given a large amount of time, sure a tenno with a small pickup radius could pick up the same amount of items that a tenno with a vacuum sentinel would.  That's like arguing painting a house with a fine tip model brush can eventually do the job as well as using a large commercial paintbrush.  Sure, eventually, given enough time, by why would you want to?  Especially the way games are played.  With the exception of survival, tenno treat just about every mission as a race to be finished as fast as possible.  Players don't have a large amount of time to methodically cover the area for drops.

You have said some things I simply don't understand.

1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

What I am arguing against is the belief that it should be allowed to be used with little to no consequence.

What do you mean by this?

1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

It may be just a convenience mod but it is very strong for what it does and that strength should reasonably come with a price.

I'm a big "pro & con" believer myself, but what is that price?

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

It is an upgrade, and upgrades should not be free.

It is an upgrade, but do you mean it shouldn't be free?  I haven't read anything you've written that was along this line.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Troll_Logic

[BlackCoMerc]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats not exactly true. Half of the devs  Everyone wants it; Scott doesnt.

Fixed it for you.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

@Troll_Logic

I still agree that it makes farming runs faster and more convenient. I only disagree that it nets a player more items. A 20 minute Ophelia run on Uranus will net the same amount of polymer bundles with or without vacuum. The only difference is that the polymer will go into the players inventory sooner.

The common complaint towards Vacuum is that it requires using a Sentinel and a dedicated mod slot. That is the cost and I believe it is very reasonable. It requires giving up on using pets and the benefits they bring. It isn't that much of a cost but it is still an arsenal restriction.

In regards to being free, I mean a case where Warframes are given it as a passive or pets are given the mod as well. No longer is there an associated cost to it since any loadout may include it with ease. It is no longer a necessary choice the player must make for optimal outcome.

[Pessimystic]

There doesn't even have to be a compelling argument for Universal Vacuum, as there is no compelling argument against it.

[Czin]

We have UniVac, its just that the range is 3m for now. Scott sneaked it in for Plains of Eidolon launch. Still not enough imo.

[Altre]

1 hour ago, Czin said:

We have UniVac, its just that the range is 3m for now. Scott sneaked it in for Plains of Eidolon launch. Still not enough imo.

That's the complaint. In a game where we dedicate patient hours for expedient mission runs and days to simply build a new device that will potentially aid in building new devices that will do the same, I've come to think of picking up loot as a misplaced design in the game. It works in D&D, RPGs, and similar games, where grinding usually yields results with use of less loot. They usually have limits on how many resources you can even physically carry.

In WF, your biomechanical murder machine is supposed to literally pick up with their hands the crafting component that EVERY enemy carries on their person at all times, somehow teleport it to your ship, and then have the ship turn 50,000 salvage, 5,000 circuits, only 5 mutagen mass, and 1 for forma into an organic sack weapon that you can carry around with 2 other weapons. The game almost demands constant gear crafting and sometimes exorbitant cost requirements (sometimes just grinding an exploit before it gets patched) for a resource to stay relevant with various flavors of grind. There's a major disparity between those that WoW tiers of quality hours into the game and others that just don't have the time to work an efficient routine out before a new one is used by the herd and that method falls by the wayside because the non-hardcore players can't keep up resource wise to make builds that remain relevant (grinding to build things that require polymer and other foundational components that some players have in excess of millions, while others struggle to gather enough for a few missions worth of pizzas).

I'd be fine with loot just being autocollected or when one person within affinity range picks up loot, everyone gets it.

My rant wasn't at anyone in specific, just the idea of loot in WF. lol

Edited May 23, 2018 by Altre

[Azimbee]

So my suggestion of moving everything DE uses to work 3-4 meters out of arm's reach has more serious merit than I initially joked about. Good to know.

Also the universal vacuum doesn't have to be free. After all, we have a mod for damage on all 3 weapons and pets and even sentinel weapons. Why not a vacuum mod for everything? Have it stack?

Edited May 23, 2018 by TheLegendTamer
Suggestion Edit

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_IGN]

It pisses me off that my Kavat/Kubrow doesnt have vacuum(not that they have room for it) but I dont know if I would ever touch my sentinels again if my animals could use vacuum.   I already have given them up mostly.  I use them if im incubating or making imprints when I dont have access to my animals lol.  

Animals can heal you which is far more valuable then messing with your shields like sentinels do.   Sentinel weapons take the same mods as your weapons and are constantly getting mixed up with your the ones in your gear.   I dont know raw numbers but the laser rifle, the deth machine gun,  the burst laser pistol are all pretty weak.  (awesome at <30 but garbage at higher levels).   My Helmith dog gets 1k+ damage + viral damage.

---------

I think all the companions should have the same stats and same mods/precepts.     It would be hella nice if we could just use whatever the hell we wanted and mod for the purpose we want them to serve.   Extra loot,  HP healing,  vacuum,  offense,  crowd control,   etc.   

I would totally use a different companions for different frames.   

Pets 2.0 should also nuke having to put animals into cryo.   You have access to all sentinels at all times.  Kats and Dogs should work the same.  

What I would really love as a companion is a Roller!!  Name it "Critter" (after the movies)

[Altre]

1 hour ago, TheLegendTamer said:

So my suggestion of moving everything DE uses to work 3-4 meters out of arm's reach has more serious merit than I initially joked about. Good to know.

Also the universal vacuum doesn't have to be free. After all, we have a mod for damage on all 3 weapons and pets and even sentinel weapons. Why not a vacuum mod for everything? Have it stack?

Yeah, it's something I've defended quite strongly in previous posts. lol

56 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_IGN said:

It pisses me off that my Kavat/Kubrow doesnt have vacuum(not that they have room for it) but I dont know if I would ever touch my sentinels again if my animals could use vacuum.   I already have given them up mostly.  I use them if im incubating or making imprints when I dont have access to my animals lol.  

Animals can heal you which is far more valuable then messing with your shields like sentinels do.   Sentinel weapons take the same mods as your weapons and are constantly getting mixed up with your the ones in your gear.   I dont know raw numbers but the laser rifle, the deth machine gun,  the burst laser pistol are all pretty weak.  (awesome at <30 but garbage at higher levels).   My Helmith dog gets 1k+ damage + viral damage.

---------

I think all the companions should have the same stats and same mods/precepts.     It would be hella nice if we could just use whatever the hell we wanted and mod for the purpose we want them to serve.   Extra loot,  HP healing,  vacuum,  offense,  crowd control,   etc.   

I would totally use a different companions for different frames.   

Pets 2.0 should also nuke having to put animals into cryo.   You have access to all sentinels at all times.  Kats and Dogs should work the same.  

What I would really love as a companion is a Roller!!  Name it "Critter" (after the movies)

If animals could get vacuums or at least have some gathering/fetch feature, that'd be cool. I would like them to have different stats and mods to maintain individuality, but I get what you mean.

[Czin]

2 hours ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_IGN said:

 

Animals can heal you which is far more valuable then messing with your shields like sentinels do. 

Medi-Ray is a sentinel-only mod. It heals you for %Health/sec every X sec.

[Eivy]

I still think they should just make sentinels minor buffers or ammo carriers where you can add in your vacuum, then also be able to use a kavat or kubrow. People are worried about balance with it, which I find stupid, it would be very easy to do this without it being game breaking. 

My issue with DE is they claim they dont want us to be rats in a maze, but so many drops and we have to run around looking at the floor all the time if we dont use vacuum.

 

[Axio.]

I remember a simpler time.

[Troll_Logic]

On 2018-05-23 at 12:08 AM, (XB1)RPColten said:

@Troll_Logic

Dude, thanks for the reply.  Sorry for the delay in replying.

On 2018-05-23 at 12:08 AM, (XB1)RPColten said:

I still agree that it makes farming runs faster and more convenient. I only disagree that it nets a player more items. A 20 minute Ophelia run on Uranus will net the same amount of polymer bundles with or without vacuum. The only difference is that the polymer will go into the players inventory sooner.

I'll always disagree with that 100%.  The player without vacuum must cover significantly more ground than a player with vacuum and the player without must also backtrack when there is time.  On missions that are a straight line, it's obvious that without vacuum less will be collected.  On missions such as survival, the player without vacuum must cover significantly more ground and also be aware of the ground that was covered and what more needs to be covered.  On missions like defense, the uncovered area is smaller, but the player without vacuum must go further away from the operative or pod to collect the same amount of resources.

On 2018-05-23 at 12:08 AM, (XB1)RPColten said:

The common complaint towards Vacuum is that it requires using a Sentinel and a dedicated mod slot. That is the cost and I believe it is very reasonable. It requires giving up on using pets and the benefits they bring. It isn't that much of a cost but it is still an arsenal restriction.

 I agree with you 100% there should be a mod cost.  Absolutely.  I also think vacuum should be on the animals as well.  Sentinels have benefits above animals as well as the other way around.  

On 2018-05-23 at 12:08 AM, (XB1)RPColten said:

In regards to being free, I mean a case where Warframes are given it as a passive or pets are given the mod as well. No longer is there an associated cost to it since any loadout may include it with ease. It is no longer a necessary choice the player must make for optimal outcome.

Well, I think a mod slot is a reasonable cost.  The player should, and has, a much smaller personal vacuum but my problem is that it doesn't work 100% of the time.  

[Troll_Logic]

On 2018-05-23 at 7:31 PM, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_IGN said:

It pisses me off that my Kavat/Kubrow doesnt have vacuum(not that they have room for it)

On the collar

[Troll_Logic]

On 2018-05-23 at 12:14 PM, Altre said:

That's the complaint. In a game where we dedicate patient hours for expedient mission runs and days to simply build a new device that will potentially aid in building new devices that will do the same, I've come to think of picking up loot as a misplaced design in the game. It works in D&D, RPGs, and similar games, where grinding usually yields results with use of less loot. They usually have limits on how many resources you can even physically carry.

In WF, your biomechanical murder machine is supposed to literally pick up with their hands the crafting component that EVERY enemy carries on their person at all times, somehow teleport it to your ship, and then have the ship turn 50,000 salvage, 5,000 circuits, only 5 mutagen mass, and 1 for forma into an organic sack weapon that you can carry around with 2 other weapons.

I've always view the drops as energy.  Tenno picks up the energy and the liset converts the specific energy type to the corresponding physical item.