Ideas to make Mobile Defense less boring

[ljmadruga]

For those of you interested in my ideas to make Interception less boring, here’s a link

Without further ado, here are my ideas.

1- Introduce penalties for carrying the payload, such as increased damage taken, inability to bulletjump, and a high energy drain. This would incentivize working in teams.

2- Allow for multiple terminals to be activated at once, similar in style to excavation.

3- Have all doors on the map go into full lockdown when the datamass is picked up, opening only when a player holding the datamass to open the doors.

4- Instead of having a timer, set the terminals so that they have to be hacked instead. Have the hacking minigame be a more complex version of the normal ones. For example, the Corpus/Orokin puzzle could be the same as it is currently, but all of the tiles are also puzzles of that variety. For the grineer puzzle, it could be as simple as solving 5-10 grineer puzzles in succession without failing one. Ciphers would only solve a portion of each puzzle.

5- Give enemies the ability to disarm the datamass and the ability to pick it up.

6- Have some terminals be boobytrapped so that they activate some explosives or something that kill any player nearby that attempts to put in the datamass. In order to bypass this, the players must destroy the terminal themselves.

7- This changes the gamemode to be more like an older mission type, but give the datamass it’s own healthbar, and have it require a players energy to “charge”. The objective would be to insert the fully charged datamass into a terminal. No need to defend the terminal, just insert the datamass and head to extraction. All enemies would have a 100% chance to drop energy in this mode alone.

[paul5473]

13 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:

2- Allow for multiple terminals to be activated at once, similar in style to excavation.

if you did this and one failed the whole mission fails unlike excavation which is also a endless mission type and it cant really be failed. Also this will enhance more trolls to go into MD's turn them all on then leave.

Edited May 31, 2018 by paul5473

[ljmadruga]

22 minutes ago, paul5473 said:

if you did this and one failed the whole mission fails unlike excavation which is also a endless mission type and it cant really be failed. Also this will enhance more trolls to go into MD's turn them all on then leave.

You make a fair point, but that already happens a ton with Sortie spy missions.

[DissentWomble]

+1 to these but seems very team dependent. Meaning if on a star chart node and you're a lowbie just trying to clear a node, it'd be a very huge difficulty spike considering how doable other missions are alone. Maybe for a raid mechanic and to a stretch sortie missions but not for normal starchart missions. 

[ljmadruga]

2 minutes ago, kambinks said:

+1 to these but seems very team dependent. Meaning if on a star chart node and you're a lowbie just trying to clear a node, it'd be a very huge difficulty spike considering how doable other missions are alone. Maybe for a raid mechanic and to a stretch sortie missions but not for normal starchart missions. 

I can see where you are coming from. I was putting forward ideas to require more from the party in sorties than one (1) Limbo. In other words, I was putting out ideas to nerf limbo without nerfing limbo.

This is coming from someone who pretty much uses limbo for anything from quests to spy’s to even tridolons.

The ideas I present are not necessarily meant to be taken up all at the same time. Personally, I would definitely love to see 2, 4, 5, and 6 for starchart missions and the rest for a trial or Sortie variant.

[paul5473]

53 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:

You make a fair point, but that already happens a ton with Sortie spy missions.

But thats spy missions not MD...

[krc473]

In all honesty, these would not make them less boring. These would slow mission progression. Taking twice as long to reach the same goal (and reward) is not what I consider less boring. Interesting changes, yes. It would add variety certainly. I doubt it would be less boring though. 

 

DE could force random dragon key effects onto each player in the squad. It would add variety. Would it be less boring? “Energy Reduction Sortie”, everyone gets the extinguished effect... that would be interesting at least.

[ljmadruga]

37 minutes ago, krc473 said:

In all honesty, these would not make them less boring. These would slow mission progression. Taking twice as long to reach the same goal (and reward) is not what I consider less boring. Interesting changes, yes. It would add variety certainly. I doubt it would be less boring though. 

 

DE could force random dragon key effects onto each player in the squad. It would add variety. Would it be less boring? “Energy Reduction Sortie”, everyone gets the extinguished effect... that would be interesting at least.

Adding Sortie conditions increases difficulty and makes the mission interesting, sure, but it’s does so artificially.

The ideas I’m presenting vary the mission in different ways that increase difficulty by adding new factors to consider.

If I filled this list with ideas to artificially increase the difficulty, the list would be 30-40 items long and it would be filled with things like “Add Sortie conditions as terminals are hacked” and “force the datamass to be dropped every 30 seconds when carrying it”. Sure, they would increase difficulty, but they would be more annoying than fun.

[krc473]

1 hour ago, ljmadruga said:

Adding Sortie conditions increases difficulty and makes the mission interesting, sure, but it’s does so artificially.

My example was based on a MD mission in sorties. I was not suggesting adding those randomly. I do not agree that most of the conditions make sorties more interesting. They are so irrelevant to the mission that I virtually never even check them.

1 hour ago, ljmadruga said:

The ideas I’m presenting vary the mission in different ways that increase difficulty by adding new factors to consider.

Harder does not equal enjoyable/less boring. Increasing the difficulty based on “trash mechanics” would not make it less boring for example.

 

Take your third point. Every single door being in lockdown is a terrible mechanic. Remember the event (Razorback) that had almost every second room suffering a lockdown? Remember how much everyone hated that? Sure, people did it - the prize was worthwhile. A standard MD mission does not have a worthwhile prize. 

 

I think your suggestions 5 and 7 could be implemented. The others look more like they would just serve to annoy people. I would avoid MD missions at all costs if some of those were implemented. Making a mission overly complicated is not a good way to go.

Edited June 1, 2018 by krc473

[-QUILL_PETER-]

Maybe make mobile defense be more like the treasure defense minigames in the Uncharted series?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

1- Introduce penalties for carrying the payload, such as increased damage taken, inability to bulletjump, and a high energy drain. This would incentivize working in teams.

I find it interesting how players assume their risk-reward models will have a very specific effect on player actions.

I can tell you right now that instead of incentivizing teamwork, this would just make everyone leave the mass at the beginning, as no one would be willing to pick it up.

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

2- Allow for multiple terminals to be activated at once, similar in style to excavation.

3- Have all doors on the map go into full lockdown when the datamass is picked up, opening only when a player holding the datamass to open the doors.

Both of these would incentivize trolling, or at least enable it.

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

4- Instead of having a timer, set the terminals so that they have to be hacked instead. Have the hacking minigame be a more complex version of the normal ones. For example, the Corpus/Orokin puzzle could be the same as it is currently, but all of the tiles are also puzzles of that variety. For the grineer puzzle, it could be as simple as solving 5-10 grineer puzzles in succession without failing one. Ciphers would only solve a portion of each puzzle.

So make Sortie Mobile Defense an even more annoying version of Sortie Spy? Once again, this will not encourage skill, instead it will cause players to just not play.

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

5- Give enemies the ability to disarm the datamass and the ability to pick it up.

Only if there is some way to reset the Datamass's location if the enemy carrying it drops it in an unreachable location when they are killed.

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

6- Have some terminals be boobytrapped so that they activate some explosives or something that kill any player nearby that attempts to put in the datamass. In order to bypass this, the players must destroy the terminal themselves. 

If they were very clearly marked and easy to tell the difference, sure, or if you could only damage trapped ones and not normal ones. Otherwise, it's either a random punishment (which is the fastest way to drive players from your game) or something that doesn't fit in Warframe's fast-paced gameplay.

3 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

7- This changes the gamemode to be more like an older mission type, but give the datamass it’s own healthbar, and have it require a players energy to “charge”. The objective would be to insert the fully charged datamass into a terminal. No need to defend the terminal, just insert the datamass and head to extraction. All enemies would have a 100% chance to drop energy in this mode alone.

This I could see working, as long as the datamass didn't block energy pads/Harrow/Trinity/etc.

[ljmadruga]

17 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Take your third point. Every single door being in lockdown is a terrible mechanic. Remember the event (Razorback) that had almost every second room suffering a lockdown? Remember how much everyone hated that? Sure, people did it - the prize was worthwhile. A standard MD mission does not have a worthwhile prize. 

 

I based that idea off of LOR when that was a thing.

 

19 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I think your suggestions 5 and 7 could be implemented. The others look more like they would just serve to annoy people. I would avoid MD missions at all costs if some of those were implemented. Making a mission overly complicated is not a good way to go.

Each mechanic is not meant to be used in combination with another. They all serve an individual purpose.

1 incentivizes team play through requiring more from the one carrying the datamass, encouraging team play while also providing a challenge for solo players.

2 also incentivizes team play by challenging the group to split their efforts across all terminals, similarly in fashion to spy missions, allowing the mission to go by faster.

3 seems annoying, sure. However, it does what #1 does in a similar vein, where one player is responsible for more than just carrying the datamass and to keep the team together.

4 incentivizes team play by having one player hack the terminal while the others guard it, also speeding up mission completion. Also, skilled players would be able to finish a terminal with the puzzle I described in about 30 seconds.

5 interrupts the mission midway and would occasionally change the objective

6 would change things up considerably provided that the trapped terminals are distinguishable from those that are not.

7 is just a different mission type entirely relying on exchanging the datamass between teammates or supporting those that are holding it.

[ljmadruga]

9 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I find it interesting how players assume their risk-reward models will have a very specific effect on player actions.

I can tell you right now that instead of incentivizing teamwork, this would just make everyone leave the mass at the beginning, as no one would be willing to pick it up.

Again, I was basing this off of my experience as a bomb carrier in LOR.

 

10 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Both of these would incentivize trolling, or at least enable it.

Fair point, but Spy and defection exist.

11 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

So make Sortie Mobile Defense an even more annoying version of Sortie Spy? Once again, this will not encourage skill, instead it will cause players to just not play.

It wouldn’t be more annoying because the hacking terminal is right in front of you, not locked behind a parkour puzzle. All you and your team has to do is hack it before it gets destroyed.

13 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Only if there is some way to reset the Datamass's location if the enemy carrying it drops it in an unreachable location when they are killed.

If they were very clearly marked and easy to tell the difference, sure, or if you could only damage trapped ones and not normal ones. Otherwise, it's either a random punishment (which is the fastest way to drive players from your game) or something that doesn't fit in Warframe's fast-paced gameplay.

These were implied. Sorry for not clarifying that.

[krc473]

2 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

Each mechanic is not meant to be used in combination with another. They all serve an individual purpose.

I was more suggesting that most of them would not have a desirable effect. It does not matter if it is one or five of them. Two of them seem like a fun idea, I cannot see the rest of them working out well. Once you learn the best way to do each one, it’s back to square one. Spy 2.0 was fun at first - it was a complete overhaul of the mission. Once you know how to do them, they are terribly boring. The addition of new mechanics to MD is unlikely to provide a lasting boost to enjoyment.

 

Yes, I agree, these will provide variety. I do not think they will provide much of a challenge. I do not think they will make the mode less boring. MD is just a static defence mission. The goal is to wait X number of minutes before you can move on. This is boring, that is just how it is. No, your hacking idea will not work. The people that struggle with hacking will not have a hope in doing MD solo.

[ljmadruga]

5 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The people that struggle with hacking will not have a hope in doing MD solo.

Which thus incentivizes them to go in with a team

[krc473]

2 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

Which thus incentivizes them to go in with a team

What about people without friends to help them? Most people are unlikely to say "sure, I want to do endless MD missions with you". Just try recruiting for something no one wants to do in the recruiting chat. It does not work. What do I get from MD that was worth the 10 - 20 minute wait to find a group? I can imagine there would be a negative impact on those that prefer playing solo (I almost always find a squad to be a hindrance, but that is another topic), and new players (no clan, no friends, most likely to group with other new players that have the same issue). Regardless of competence, this is still boring. It does nothing on that front.

Edited June 1, 2018 by krc473

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

8 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

Again, I was basing this off of my experience as a bomb carrier in LOR.

It is never a good idea to base a mission that most people do public matchmaking for off of a mission that required very specific recruiting.

Also, LoR never limited movement when carrying the bomb. In a fast-paced game like Warframe, slowing players down is not appreciated in most cases. Take the Hobbled Dragon Key, for instance. Most players don't want to be the one stuck with it.

[ljmadruga]

6 hours ago, krc473 said:

What about people without friends to help them? Most people are unlikely to say "sure, I want to do endless MD missions with you". Just try recruiting for something no one wants to do in the recruiting chat. It does not work. What do I get from MD that was worth the 10 - 20 minute wait to find a group? I can imagine there would be a negative impact on those that prefer playing solo (I almost always find a squad to be a hindrance, but that is another topic), and new players (no clan, no friends, most likely to group with other new players that have the same issue). Regardless of competence, this is still boring. It does nothing on that front.

Public matchmaking is a thing

[krc473]

30 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:

Public matchmaking is a thing

Sure. But there is one small requirement with that. People have to be running the mission. I can run it on public, but I still have to find someone. I checked a bunch of MD nodes, no open squads. As in, zero people doing it that I could join. Public matchmaking is not a viable solution for something no one wants to do. Yes, if MD was changed it would work for a few weeks. Then back to having no one doing it.

 

My suggestion: rethink the MD ideas. They just do not work. None of your suggestions work that well with the static defence style mission that is MD. You are not proposing making the mission more fun. You are proposing making it more complicated, but with fairly simple mechanics. People will figure it out on the first or second go. It will be just as boring as now, just more complicated (so, worse overall). Of course, if the suggestion was "remove MD and replace it with something totally different" some of the suggestions might work well.

I did look at your Interception ideas. They sound like a positive change (for the most part). But it is more that they work with the style of the mission. If something is incompatible with the mission type, it should not be added, simple.

Edited June 1, 2018 by krc473

[AdunSaveMe]

19 hours ago, ljmadruga said:

This would incentivize working in teams.

It would incentivize cheesing it and would also make players annoyed as hell.

Unfortunately, just slapping debuffs on the objective carrier does not make teamwork happen.

Edited June 1, 2018 by AdunSaveMe