<<LIMBO FEEDBACK>> Stasis Duration -> Stasis toggle

[Noabettiet]

As tittle implies, changing it to a channeling ability from a duration based one.
There is nothing that will hurt this, but make it more practical.

 

Quality of life you may say. Negative duration doesn't really matter, since stasis requires enemies to be within "limbo's rift", which is still bound by duration.
This puts an bigger emphasis that limbo is at his best, within the rift, which is already the intention. And doesn't require DE to change plans in what they are planning to do to him.

 

That's all.
Thank you.

[Navarc]

Now that it's half duration, it doesn't even align with his cataclysms duration properly so it's more disruptive and tedious for limbo to keep track of than it has ever been.
I agree at this point they should just make it channeled,  that would make limbo less about constantly looking at the lower right side for the remainder of the duration and calculating to see if something it going to keep working or not & gives a purpose for himself in the rift regenerating energy since he doesn't really have much to feed it into and spends a lot of time at max energy when you're utilizing him at his best.
I'm all for it to be channeled instead of duration.

[Buzkyl]

Changing it  to channeling would allow limbo to always have it active as combine with the rift passive 2e/s and Limbo's 10e per kill it would be hilariously easy to maintain channeling stasis for the entire mission. It's not just QoL it';s breaking the already strongest CC in the game even more.

Most Limbos are built with duration so stasis on average will last 20-30s, is it that hard to just glance at your ability? 

[mactrent]

17 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

combine with the rift passive 2e/s and Limbo's 10e per kill it would be hilariously easy to maintain channeling stasis for the entire mission

Potentially, of course.  They've added a mechanic to prevent abuse of channeled abilities like this, though - exponential or geometric drain increases, like Valkyr and *cough* Ember, respectively.  It's effectively free for the first x seconds, after which he'll have to kill increasingly faster to keep up with it, and that's without taking into account the other powers he'd be casting to give himself plenty of targets.  Maintaining Stasis for as long as possible becomes a frenzied puzzle, until you find/make a safe spot and refresh it.  Could make it feel more like the quest: "instability... lost in the Rift... safeguards".  😄 

Sounds tough but fun.  Having Stasis with a set duration always felt a little odd - freeze the world, line up shots, and... wait for it to run out? No!  Get these dead men moving, and bring in the next victims!  Any extra time I had on the clock was a bit of a waste, but hey, energy is free!

It's not that hard to just glance at the ability, and after a while, I'm sure we'll all get used to the new duration.  This just seems better, smoother, and more like a potential challenge to match Limbo's marketing as the high skill-ceiling magician.

Edited July 6, 2018 by mactrent

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Stasis as a toggle would be ok but you would have to forgo all rift energy gains to balance it.

[Noabettiet]

23 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Changing it  to channeling would allow limbo to always have it active as combine with the rift passive 2e/s and Limbo's 10e per kill it would be hilariously easy to maintain channeling stasis for the entire mission. It's not just QoL it';s breaking the already strongest CC in the game even more.

Most Limbos are built with duration so stasis on average will last 20-30s, is it that hard to just glance at your ability? 

Like others said before, it is rather a convenience, i can live with just glancing. But the micromanaging is unnecessary hence the thread.
You can still balance the drain and energy regeneration, even though, having infinite duration within the rift isn't really a big jump from saryn infinite spores.

Not to mention, that there isn't really a down side or upside to keep the ability running. You'd have to still cast the other abilities to make use of the infinite stasis. 
Which well.. already balances itself, if you think about it.

[Insizer]

I'm a Limbo main and I think it is fine as is.  Yeah, you have to cast it twice per Cata/Banish but I'd rather do that than not have energy regen.  It would inconvenience me if anything.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Insizer

[-CM-Harbinger]

On 2018-06-12 at 10:09 PM, Noabettiet said:

As tittle implies, changing it to a channeling ability from a duration based one.
There is nothing that will hurt this, but make it more practical.

 

Quality of life you may say. Negative duration doesn't really matter, since stasis requires enemies to be within "limbo's rift", which is still bound by duration.
This puts an bigger emphasis that limbo is at his best, within the rift, which is already the intention. And doesn't require DE to change plans in what they are planning to do to him.

 

That's all.
Thank you.

In my post i also tried to bring this up : 

The fact that the only change to his stasis is half the duration will eliminate playstyles from limbo and make him even less viable in missions.

Being able to shoot inside the rift VS half the duration on statis is an unfair trade IMO. and not only that, but the enemies still need to be in the first to be shot, as you cant shoot across planes.

This will cause limbo players to just spam banish and surge instead of being "the lord of the rift" or "the master of time".

As i mentioned in my post that limbo lost his identity and basicly most of the def frames can do better job (if the shooting inside the rift was the actual problem).

 

But im glad ppl are trying to bring this to DE's attention as i hope my ex-favorite frame comes back from the dead...

 

 

P.S. They increased the duration of hall of mirrors or eclipse to better synergize with eachother wich is understandable even though i dont play mirage a lot, but then they do the opposite to limbo wich in my opinion had the BEST synergy between his abilities. This is what i dont understand. Is it to satisfy the people who were complaining about limbo just because they didnt understand how he worked? or to make new ppl try him out? 

Edited July 7, 2018 by -CM-Harbinger

[Insizer]

3 hours ago, -CM-Harbinger said:

The fact that the only change to his stasis is half the duration will eliminate playstyles from limbo and make him even less viable in missions.

It hasn't done that for me and I main Limbo.  I just have to press 2 more often.

[-CM-Harbinger]

2 minutes ago, Insizer said:

It hasn't done that for me and I main Limbo.  I just have to press 2 more often.

Like the text you quoted says, it eliminated playstyles as there are many playstyles for limbo 😛

Example is that spy missions are not as efficient as before. Wich makes it not as viable as doing it with over frames...

What i mean is that he is no longer best at anything. He might be decent at a thing or two, but there is no reason to use him if other frames does the job better.

[Buzkyl]

7 hours ago, -CM-Harbinger said:

Like the text you quoted says, it eliminated playstyles as there are many playstyles for limbo 😛

Example is that spy missions are not as efficient as before. Wich makes it not as viable as doing it with over frames...

What i mean is that he is no longer best at anything. He might be decent at a thing or two, but there is no reason to use him if other frames does the job better.

You could just kill the wardens or drones as they're frozen in time. Spy is just as simple now as it was before.

Stasis+Cataclysm is still the strongest CC ingame right now. Enemies are now frozen for 30s instead of 60s. 

 

Can't see any area where Limbo lost viability, he is still amazing at excavation, MD and spy while no longer being an outcast

Edited July 8, 2018 by Buzkyl

[Noabettiet]

On 2018-07-07 at 1:54 PM, -CM-Harbinger said:

Being able to shoot inside the rift VS half the duration on statis is an unfair trade IMO. and not only that, but the enemies still need to be in the first to be shot, as you cant shoot across planes.

Yeah it was a knee jerk reaction. I guess it isn't obvious enough for DE to know that giving someone else the tools to interrupt other player performance was a dumb idea.
There shouldn't even be a trade to start with, it is a quality of life change to limbo, from a mistake they made. What's next? You are scrolled back up if you scroll too fast down on the foundry?

It still bothers me why they thought it was a good idea to stop players from picking up drops if they are inside the rift. 

On 2018-07-07 at 3:58 AM, Insizer said:

I'm a Limbo main and I think it is fine as is.  Yeah, you have to cast it twice per Cata/Banish but I'd rather do that than not have energy regen.  It would inconvenience me if anything.

They don't even need to remove the energy regen. Anyone who has played limbo doesn't have a problem recovering the energy lost from casting stasis, so what's the difference?
It is a convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. 
Want an example of another warframe who has a toggle ability that can be negated with energy regen? Equinox. 

On 2018-07-08 at 1:04 AM, Buzkyl said:

You could just kill the wardens or drones as they're frozen in time. Spy is just as simple now as it was before.

Stasis+Cataclysm is still the strongest CC ingame right now. Enemies are now frozen for 30s instead of 60s. 

 

Can't see any area where Limbo lost viability, he is still amazing at excavation, MD and spy while no longer being an outcast

Yeah, i definitely agree with this too. It is a good CC skill. 
...And you are right again, it didn't lost viability.

But as you might already expect, there is also no point in making it a timed ability. You can easily recover the necessary energy to recast stasis, so why not? 😕

[Buzkyl]

4 minutes ago, Noabettiet said:

But as you might already expect, there is also no point in making it a timed ability. You can easily recover the necessary energy to recast stasis, so why not? 😕

Because having the ability always be active would make Limbo far too strong. Limbo can already pick his engagements via jumping into and out of the rift and by picking those engagements enemies are then locked in time unable to actually affect Limbo. Stasis being a timed ability a brief period where stasis ends and enemies are able to briefly attack limbo (which can be worked around by recasting Stasis in 1 spot), if Stasis s a toggle remove that brief window where Limbo can actually be harmed.

Making stasis a toggle isn't a QoL life but another direct buff to the skill. Unless you're willing sacrifice another aspect such as limiting stasis to a set AoE or some other nerf, you're just making an already buffed skill even stronger.

On 2018-07-06 at 9:45 PM, Noabettiet said:

You'd have to still cast the other abilities to make use of the infinite stasis. 

And that doesn't actually justify why stasis should be infinite anyway. You're arguing that one skill should be OP because another skill is a prequiste, except Limbo is suppose to be in the Rift anywhere as that's his mechanic. WHich is why he has energy generation as a passive of bot the frame and the Rift, he's meant to be casting alot of skills.

[Insizer]

2 hours ago, Noabettiet said:

They don't even need to remove the energy regen. Anyone who has played limbo doesn't have a problem recovering the energy lost from casting stasis, so what's the difference?
It is a convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. 
Want an example of another warframe who has a toggle ability that can be negated with energy regen? Equinox.

You really think that they would allow passive energy regen for a toggle Stasis when they don't with WoF and every other toggle on every other frame?  If anything, DE would make it so the energy drain would ramp up over time or something just because of how powerful Stasis is and because of Limbo's two innate forms of energy regen.

I just dont find the current Stasis annoying enough to warrant making it a toggle.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Toggle is dumb. Takes away his energy per second effect. The 45s duration is plenty of time.

[Insizer]

On 2018-07-07 at 12:42 PM, -CM-Harbinger said:

Like the text you quoted says, it eliminated playstyles as there are many playstyles for limbo 😛

Example is that spy missions are not as efficient as before. Wich makes it not as viable as doing it with over frames...

What i mean is that he is no longer best at anything. He might be decent at a thing or two, but there is no reason to use him if other frames does the job better.

That doesn't "eliminate playstyles", it only frustrates them.

If Stasis were instead made to only affect nearby Cataclysms or nearby banished enemies, then it would eliminate playstyles like: dropping Cata-stasises on extractors and moving onto the next ones once your Cataclysm will outlast the extractors, etc.

[mactrent]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Toggle is dumb. Takes away his energy per second effect. The 45s duration is plenty of time.

This assumes someone is playing max duration and never any other build. Current low-duration builds (major YT video explains it, look it up if you don't get it) don't use Stasis all that much because the casting time is significant compared to the effect. Cost doesn't enter the equation, but it could like this. Making it a toggle could let it be used as long as is needed, but the low duration would make the energy cost ramp up very quickly, so that it's nowhere near permanent.

1 hour ago, Insizer said:

If anything, DE would make it so the energy drain would ramp up over time or something just because of how powerful Stasis is and because of Limbo's two innate forms of energy regen. 

This is exactly what I suggested too - make it toggle with ramping cost, like Ember or Valkyr, scaling with both duration and efficiency.  I don't know that it's too big a deal either, but ever since Revisited, the duration made me scratch my head.

Edited July 9, 2018 by mactrent

[Insizer]

2 hours ago, mactrent said:

This is exactly what I suggested too - make it toggle with ramping cost, like Ember or Valkyr, scaling with both duration and efficiency.  I don't know that it's too big a deal either, but ever since Revisited, the duration made me scratch my head.

I would hate this more than anything else.  I'd rather pay 50 energy up from for 30 secs or so of duration than have a ramping cost toggle that will eat up more energy and prevent me from regening energy.

[mactrent]

14 minutes ago, Insizer said:

and prevent me from regening energy

I never said that, though it wouldn't take long with a short duration or a low efficiency for the drain to exceed your 2 energy/sec.  It wouldn't prevent either method, just gradually get larger than the first alone would grant, which is a good thing.

[Insizer]

12 minutes ago, mactrent said:

I never said that, though it wouldn't take long with a short duration or a low efficiency for the drain to exceed your 2 energy/sec.  It wouldn't prevent either method, just gradually get larger than the first alone would grant, which is a good thing.

Toggle abilities mean prevention of passive energy regen in 9/10 cases

[mactrent]

@InsizerNot when it comes to Limbo's passive energy regen.  His Rift passive gives energy to Equinox, Quake Banshee, and Mesa right now, and I never said to take that away.

Edited July 10, 2018 by mactrent

[Insizer]

4 minutes ago, mactrent said:

@InsizerNot when it comes to Limbo's passive energy regen.  His Rift passive gives energy to Equinox, Quake Banshee, and Mesa right now, and I never said to take that away.

i understand you didn't say anything about passive regen being disabled, but for the vast majority of toggles abilities it is.  I mean Ember's WoF has rift regen disabled if i recall.  Regardless, my sentiment still stands, id rather just put energy up front than have it continuously drained away or drained away at a ramping rate.  I think it will be more efficient in the end and well i wont have to mod efficiency into my build just for one ability.

[mactrent]

16 minutes ago, Insizer said:

i understand you didn't say anything about passive regen being disabled, but for the vast majority of toggles abilities it is.

Not when it comes to Limbo's passive; even Ember's WoF benefits from his 2 energy per second.  All the Warframes that don't benefit from Energy Vampire still benefit from Rift passive, so there's no reason to make an exception there.

I understand your preference, and tbh my own preference stems from when Stasis still froze my bullets - I'd cast Stasis, I'd line up my shots, and I'd... wait?  It didn't feel right.  If you're manually stopping a duration-based Stasis, you're just wasting energy, and you end up spending outlandish amounts more in the long run, but it's far more fun than just waiting.  Also, like WoF and Hysteria, duration affects how long it takes to ramp up, so if you've got a fair duration, your efficiency doesn't have to be high.  More on that in the last paragraph.

My preference remains even after because it'd be more dynamic - since there's hardly ever a reason to not have Stasis active, it's now just a rote mechanical press of a button at the end of a (shorter, but still quite manageable) timer, which isn't a meaningful decision.  If I can get enough kills to regen my energy before next button-press, I keep the exact same gameplay going for the next interval without any thought about this ability.  It's practically automated, with the only variables being the number of seconds between casts and the number of kills it takes regen, but those are set at build time.  In-game it's a flat x kills in y seconds every single cast.

Were it a ramping toggle, I could mod with a combo of just enough efficiency and duration to match the energy/sec of my current build, but I could then opt to cancel halfway through and keep most of the energy, or give myself another few seconds for a cost that has some weight to it.  It's an interesting decision, and makes Stasis more than just an automatic feature of the Rift.  Choosing (at build time) a higher duration vs higher efficiency would affect the shape of this efficiency curve just like it does with other frames, so I could mod to minimize my gains/losses (efficiency), or to take the most advantage with the most risk (duration).

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

11 hours ago, mactrent said:

This assumes someone is playing max duration and never any other build. Current low-duration builds (major YT video explains it, look it up if you don't get it) don't use Stasis all that much because the casting time is significant compared to the effect. Cost doesn't enter the equation, but it could like this. Making it a toggle could let it be used as long as is needed, but the low duration would make the energy cost ramp up very quickly, so that it's nowhere near permanent.

This is exactly what I suggested too - make it toggle with ramping cost, like Ember or Valkyr, scaling with both duration and efficiency.  I don't know that it's too big a deal either, but ever since Revisited, the duration made me scratch my head.

Toggle is dumb. Litteraly breaks his greatest attribute. Dont run low duration if u have a problem with low duration... Duh.

[mactrent]

2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Toggle is dumb. Litteraly breaks his greatest attribute. Dont run low duration if u have a problem with low duration... Duh.

And what's this greatest attribute now? You already said it takes away energy regen, which I've already responded to with a big nope.  Would you mind reading the rest of the posts (to be fair, I've typed a lot) then being just a tad more specific on your further points?

If you just don't want this change that's ok, but if you're gonna call it dumb at least read it and say which part doesn't make sense. It seems like you read and responded only to the same post twice and misunderstood it in the same way twice.

As for low duration, if you do run a low duration build you could at least decide if you wanted an even shorter duration without wasting anything, or if energy is less important to you than keeping those guys froze right now. It keeps you from min-maxing Stasis to irrelevance, which can currently be done without harming his other powers - it's just a different playstyle which would benefit from this.

"Don't run low duration" just for the sake of one ability when the rest work fine at low duration isn't an argument against changing that one ability.

Edited July 10, 2018 by mactrent