Scythes

[CataReverb]

Got a riven for Hate today, which got me thinking about scythes.  When I was taking a break from the game, a friend told me they were thought about being rolled into heavy blades because they weren't being used enough, even with rivens.  So I got thinking, looked on wikis, riven disposition is great except for the zaw, secondary stats are great on average, yet they show little use - why?  Took the old Anku and Hate into the Simulacrum, had a good look at 'em - stances were amazing for first-run stances, and they're a bit slow for their damage without mods, which probably turn people away from them when leveling, Then there's the shape and reach.  I went digging for the devstream that talked about this, and saw an amazing looking hate scythe.  The longer scythe holds the coolness factor the way that the current version doesn't, and the additional reach would make its slow speed worth it, like a competitor with polearms.

Then let's look at the easily available scythes: Ether Reaper, and Anku, neither of which have a design that really meshes with the Scythe mood the way the rare drop Hate does, Reaper Prime and Caustacyst are better, but Reaper Prime suffers from the same short scythe problem, and Caustacyst suffers from not having a widely comfortable build - the most viable requires the rare mod Condition Overload, as well as being a bit too slow to really capitalize on corrosive.

When the Devstream brought up the idea of folding scythes directly into heavy blades, there was a nonzero kickback, the only reasons I could think of people wouldn't want that, is, most importantly, losing the scythe stances.  Negligible reasons I could think of that people wouldn't want this would be: wanting scythes to stay unpopular, saying no to just say no, fear they'd just be incomparably worse than galatine or scindo without stat re-evaluation and that scythes would lose their uniqueness (if you're in a scythe mood, you'll use a scythe.)

In summation, the changes I think scythes need: more range to be on par with the Gram and a very small bit more speed first, then later consider folding them in with heavy blades.  If you somehow magically had infinite time, I'd say to first rework the Ether Reaper design to look more scythe and less long axe, then consider a new scythe stance before combining them with heavy blades. 

Never remove the scythes stances.  I can't be the only one who wants to throw a Galatine with the Abyssal Automaton combo.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Arkinvas

[Brandr_]

Personally I'd be ok with them going through with the changes and making Scythes basically heavy blades.

The only scythe in game that i enjoy playing is Dokrahm, and it can't even use scythe stances, why? Cause it ain't a scythe

Edited July 28, 2018 by wolf96781

[Kyryo]

7 minutes ago, wolf96781 said:

Personally I'd be ok with them going through with the changes and making Scythes basically heavy blades.

The only scythe in game that i enjoy playing is Dokrahm, and it can't even use scythe stances, why? Cause it ain't a scythe

Couldn't say it better.

Extra note, for me, they just need to make the scythes 2-handed, just like... the Dokrahm...  

Also, i'm good with the change into heavy blades, just for the ability to use Cleaving Whirlwind which is one of the most overpowered stances we have 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Kyryo

[AlphaPHENIX]

And why not just have two kinds of scythes? The ones we have now and longer ones. Even better, implement the Dark-Split Sword mechanic into the entire scythe category, so people can use whichever version they want. Obviously there will be many that go for the more meta friendly option without a second thought, but if you told me I would be loosing my current scythe stances I would riot.

And while I am at the Dark-Split Sword idea, well won't you look at that...another unfinished system, mainly because it was released at a busy time, but being able to switch stances mid-mission would still be nice.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Build the heavy blade zaw.

its basically a scythe heavy blade prototype.

its a heavy blade with TWICE the range.

How tf can you be against that!?

[m0b1us1]

Scythe's need more base range and their stances need to be adjusted and changed around. The rare stance has a combo that occurs when you move forward and melee and you end up doing a double uppercut that ragdolls enemies far away. Well if you are using a scythe, that is incredibly counter productive. The other stance has an amazing combo with the same inputs, but a noticeable delay before the second and final attack. That delay feels awful and is only not noticeable when you have crazy AS. Or just bring in a new scythe stance that is more akin to a heavy blade feel along with the increased base range.

I have always fallen on the side of "why not both?" when it comes to scythe stances. Why not treat them like the dark split sword and let them use both?

[Pizzarugi]

5 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

Personally I'd be ok with them going through with the changes and making Scythes basically heavy blades.

The only scythe in game that i enjoy playing is Dokrahm, and it can't even use scythe stances, why? Cause it ain't a scythe

Fair warning: Galatine Prime continues to be the strongest heavy blade in the game, still surpassing the heavy blade zaw no matter what setup you make. Scythes will need a noticeable buff after transitioning to heavy blade to make them worthwhile picks, otherwise they'll be as forgotten now as they were as scythes.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Brandr_]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Fair warning: Galatine Prime continues to be the strongest heavy blade in the game, still surpassing the heavy blade zaw no matter what setup you make. Scythes will need a noticeable buff after transitioning to heavy blade to make them worthwhile picks, otherwise they'll be as forgotten now as they were as scythes.

Galatine prime is min max strong, most people don't like min maxing, i see a lot of people use a variety of different weapons, even heavy blades. Most people use what's fun

[Pizzarugi]

19 minutes ago, wolf96781 said:

Galatine prime is min max strong, most people don't like min maxing, i see a lot of people use a variety of different weapons, even heavy blades. Most people use what's fun

The majority of players I come across using spin2win weapons and press-4-to-win frames beg to differ.

[Marvelous_A]

The scythe category in this game are essentially small pickaxes and the only real scythe in this game is Dokhram. I'm all for changing current scythe weapon into heavy blade class.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[OvisCaedo]

11 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

Galatine prime is min max strong, most people don't like min maxing, i see a lot of people use a variety of different weapons, even heavy blades. Most people use what's fun

People will want to use what's fun, sure. But when almost every melee weapon in a category will play almost exactly the same way barring any significant gimmick, I feel like what's "fun" and what's "strongest" are probably going to coincide a lot. There's not exactly a lot of Exciting Variant Playstyle between using a Scindo Prime and using the Galatine Prime; one just swings slightly slower, does less damage, and procs status less.

But hey, maybe they'll be making efforts in the pending melee 3.0 pass to try to force more distinguishment between melee weapons. But bloating heavy blades as a category even more by shoving all of the scythes into it seems like that just makes it an even more complicated task to set them apart.