Why Does De Hate Balance?

[NikolaiLev]

Balance design is a crucial part to any competent game, PvP or not.  Balance makes sure all options in the game remain options, and that there is no lack of viability when making alternate choices.  This ensures that variety remains in the game; new content can be tried to keep things fresh.  The entire game improves.

 

However, DE seems to be waging an eternal war against balance, making their own game stale with constant pressure to "upgrade," encouraging power creep and leaving older weapons in the dust.

 

The most common argument against balance is "This is a progression-based game; weapons are balanced by their mastery rank and difficulty of crafting."  However, this argument is flawed; most research weapons are extremely difficult to acquire, and yet fall by the wayside in terms of power.  Meanwhile, weapons like the Galatine require a mere rank 3 to craft, and serves as one of the best melee weapons in the game.

 

The most recent (and possibly one of the most egregious examples of this) is the Akmagnus.  Not only was its creation superfluous (not every weapon must have a dual version), it serves to propagate the notion that dual sidearms are always superior to single version ones.  While they could easily be balanced against each other, providing a choice between single pistols and dual pistols, DE has chosen to make the latter a superior option in almost every situation.  Afuris is the closest they've come to making a weapon where the single and dual versions are both valid choices (though the superior dps of the latter generally wins out anyway).

 

The Akmagnus comes with the usual benefits of dual weapons; increased magazine capacity, increased fire rate, with the usual mitigated downsides; it has less than twice the reload speed, more than half the accuracy, and uniquely has less crit.  But these downsides aren't enough to justify using the single version.  And if that wasn't bad enough, the Akmagnus deals twice the damage each.

 

So I ask: Why does DE hate balancing their own game?  Why do they hate variety, allowing players to freely choose between their mass of myriad yet homogenized weapons?  Why do they keep instating arbitrary superiorities despite the fact their game would benefit wildly from allowing each weapon to fill its own unique role?

 

The only answer I can come up with, besides laziness and incompetence (which is staggering for a 170 employee, 21 year old game development company), is greed.  This trend is profitable; releasing a single version (the Magnus), allowing players ample time to invest in their weapon with formas and potatoes, or just flat out buying it/rushing it with platinum, and then releasing a flat-out superior version that strongly encourages they abandon their prior investment to acquire the new version that's just better, is extremely profitable.

 

But it abuses player goodwill.  It sends the message that DE cares more about profit than their players.  This has been going on for a long time; despite promises of reduced grind DE is now introducing yet another resource to increase the amount of grinding done in the game, gussied up as a shiny new event.

 

I want it to stop, community.  Do you?

[[DE]Grineeer]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

 

*gets ready to be burned at the stake*

[Archistopheles]

Galatine made my cry too, but the power part of the power creep makes the tears hurt less.

 

Oh stop, Scotteer.

 

We are nice people! We don't want to have to hurt you. <3

Edited January 29, 2014 by Archistopheles

[Polarthief]

Even more than just weapons, the balance of Frames is awful. I remember reading they wanted "every frame to be on the same level as Nova and Vauban", which is OBVIOUSLY not true atm.

 

Also, someone TRY telling me how to make a Miter do anything close to a Soma or Brakk.

[GIMO]

Changes:

 

Dialed down Base Damage on Akmagnus by half (was 88, now 44).

 

 

Chillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.  Calllllmmmm yourselfffff

[notionphil]

Also, someone TRY telling me how to make a Miter do anything close to a Soma or Brakk.

 

Miter is OP when used to build Grineer settlements. L2P :D

[Azamagon]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

 

*gets ready to be burned at the stake*

So AkMagnus gets an immediate fix while the single Lato (to a lesser extent, including the Prime and Vandal) remain in the dust? *Cough cough* biasm *Cough cough*

Edited January 29, 2014 by Azamagon

[ThousandDogs]

I have a better question: Why do you hate not being an over-the-top rhetorical whiny baby?

 

It's a video game. If it's fun for you, play it. If it's not fun for you, stop playing it.

 

And if you seriously think this is money-gouging, go look at literally any other Free To Play game. You'll be so outraged by what you find that you'll S#&amp;&#036; yourself to death on the spot.

[noelpilled]

Even more than just weapons, the balance of Frames is awful. I remember reading they wanted "every frame to be on the same level as Nova and LokiMasterRace and Vauban", which is OBVIOUSLY not true atm.

 

Also, someone TRY telling me how to make a Miter do anything close to a Soma or Brakk.

Fixed.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Zenadora

[Archistopheles]

So AkMagnus gets an immediate fix while the single Lato (to a lesser extent, including the Prime and Vandal) remain in the dust? *Cough cough* biasm *Cough cough*

 

You rather the Akmagnus keeps it's double damage until the Lato gets "fixed" ?

 

Do you want to take the heat when everyone's build is complete and it's damage suddenly gets cut in half "when they get around to it"?

Edited January 29, 2014 by Archistopheles

[kennylagenz]

 

Also, someone TRY telling me how to make a Miter do anything close to a Soma or Brakk.

stack fire rate mods(shred) an rifle ammo mutator

[Azamagon]

You rather the Akmagnus keeps it's double damage until the Lato gets "fixed" ?

 

Do you want to take the heat when everyone's build is complete and it's damage suddenly gets cut in half "when they get around to it"?

No I'd rather they fixed the single Lato (double up its damage so it is on par with AkLato), buffed the Lato Prime and Lato Vandal a bit too ON TOP of fixing the AkMagnus. Those fixes are not exclusive to one another ya know?

[Mak_Gohae]

I have a better question: Why do you hate not being an over-the-top rhetorical whiny baby?

 

It's a video game. If it's fun for you, play it. If it's not fun for you, stop playing it.

 

And if you seriously think this is money-gouging, go look at literally any other Free To Play game. You'll be so outraged by what you find that you'll S#&$ yourself to death on the spot.

 

 

Because WE are plaaaaayeeeeeers!

We Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeserve respect!

If they do not satisfy us, OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

 

But seriously, just as a question about the balance of the gun instead of writing half a book about how DE are evil.

[Brosagi]

Suuuuuuuuure, a "mistake," that's why the video you made and the description say it has 88 damage. Well now the Akmagnus is just flatout worse than the Magnus unless it has one or two extra polarities.

Now everyone that paid 220 Plat for these is super happy now I bet. That's just mean you guys, you NEED to refund everyone that bought them.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Brosagi

[xRufus7x]

Suuuuuuuuure, a "mistake," that's why the video you made and the description say it has 88 damage. Well now the Akmagnus is just flatout worse than the Magnus unless it has one or two extra polarities.

Now everyone that paid 220 Plat for these is super happy now I bet. That's just mean you guys, you NEED to refund everyone that bought them.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha

 

No

[VKhaun]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

 

*gets ready to be burned at the stake*

 

As penance, I demand spoilers about upcoming frames / ability changes!

[Khranitel]

0/10

Nice election speech.

[NikolaiLev]

 

Changes:

 

Dialed down Base Damage on Akmagnus by half (was 88, now 44).

 

 

Chillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.  Calllllmmmm yourselfffff

 

 

The problem hasn't been solved.  The other balance concerns remain valid; the Soma, Brakk and Galatine continue to be the top choices while many other options are left in the dust.  It's nice the Akmagnus turned out to be a mistake, but the trend of dual pistols being superior options remains.

 

 

 

 

stack fire rate mods(shred) an rifle ammo mutator

 

This will never make the Miter as good as the Soma.  The Soma has been established as one of the most powerful weapons; alongside the Synapse.  It's due to how ridiculously well they scale with crit.  It'd be simple to nerf their crit and allow them to be on par with the rest of the weapons, but... well... thread title.

Edited January 30, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[Ronyn]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

 

*gets ready to be burned at the stake*

Keep the excessive damage...

just raise the mastery level required to use it.

 

Nerfing after some folks rushed to grab it is uncool.

I came this close to spending plat on it.

[HellishWind]

im already playing a diffrent game hoping for improvements

[Nitresco]

Unfortunately, there will always be a "better weapon".

 

Learn to live with it.

[asiveni]

DE hateing balance? look at update 12, their making all melee weapons as viable as Soma's and Penta's up later on in higher end missions, and we just came out of damage 2.0 which was to make all weapons viabale, to say they aren't fixing anything is an understatement.

[taiiat]

Its a mistake, I take all blame. 2x multiplier got left in the data.

well then, what about AkLex? q.q

 

it's still a direct upgrade over the single. the Accuracy loss doesn't matter since it's a Sniping type Weapon you don't spam it anyways, yet Crits and Status Effects are still higher on the Duals than Single. logically, that makes zero sense. holding two guns doesn't make them better.

 

Keep the excessive damage...

just raise the mastery level required to use it.

Game Balance (and logic consistency) is more important than being 'nice guy joe'.

[Ronyn]

 

Game Balance (and logic consistency) is more important than being 'nice guy joe'.

While it's true that "logic consistency" and game balance are paramount, keeping the player base from feeling like things are going to be changed on a moments notice is also a concern. Them being "Nice guy Joe" is irrelevant. Them being careful with altering the nature of a purchase after its been paid for is good business. regardless of what the letter of the law states (beta, subject to change..etc) there is a matter of fostering the right kind of business relationships with ones customers. SO even if a change was required, such changes is not something that should be taken lightly. 

 

Moreover, we could get into the two questions o- 

1: Is the akmagnus is actually overpowered compared to all secondaries.

< Now I haven't done any math on it yet but I'd wager they aren't automatically at the top of the charts.

<if it was there was certainly a smaller nerf that would have brought it down to earth.

 

2: Is the akmagnus simply inconsistent with the normal way that dual weapons are handled.

<Someone could argue that there needs to be a single Gremlin for everything to remain consistent.

<Others would argue that there should generally be some exceptions to most rules.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ronyn

[taiiat]

1: Is the akmagnus is actually overpowered compared to all secondaries.

 

2: Is the akmagnus simply inconsistent with the normal way that dual weapons are handled.

<Someone could argue that there needs to be a single Gremlin for everything to remain consistent.

<Others would argue that there should generally be some exceptions to most rules.

 

:/ comparing a weapon to all the others (meaning people would say it's underpowered because it isn't another SWraith / Brakk / Soma, blah blah etc) wouldn't end up at a very good end. you'd have related equipment (like a single and dual Weapon) that are nowhere near each other in terms of the scope of the game. you could have a Single Weapon that old be 'useless', and then a Dual version that's new, that's within the top 5. that makes little sense.

so based on that, yes, they were 'OP'.

 

Gremlins are meant to be a pair though. and considering how slow a single one is and that they do relatively low Damage - that makes sense. a single would be completely useless. the force multiplication from having two makes that Weapon design actually usable. the Description of them even states they are designed to be used as a pair.

 

exceptions to logic and physics? holding two of the same gun doesn't suddenly make it better than holding one of them. there are no exceptions to that.

holding two guns means you can throw more lead downrange. and the obvious downsides to that is Accuracy and Reloading. those are basically the only 'stat tweaks' a Dual version of a Single Weapon needs or should have. is that 'drab' or 'boring'? yes, it is. but that's the nature of Dual Weapons. they are still the same Weapon, just more of them.

 

 

while money being tied to Warframe certainly changes peoples' reactions - the public game we have here, is the test server. there is no private bottled up testing environment with 20 salaried testers. all 5 million of us are the test server.

 

for a simplistic resolution (far from an ideal one but a simple one) is to hold back on spending money right off the bat due to the fact that this is infact a 'test server'.

Edited January 30, 2014 by taiiat