Shotguns: Remove Damage Falloff Over Distance.

[inappropriatename5818]

I may or may not be salty because of the Kohm changes, but it made me realize what a pointless mechanic this is.   

 

In which galaxy will a lead ball that has has been launched from a barrel at high speed hurt less 20 meters away than it does 5 meters away?   

 

By that logic bows should have damage falloff over distance too no? Pretty sure an arrow would lose momentum a lot faster than a pellet from a shotgun.    

Rifle bullets don't fly forever either, so those should have damage drop over ~50 meters then?    

 

What I'm trying to say is this mechanic is just another nerf to an already inferior weapon type.   

There is no point using shotguns right now. Why take Boar Prime over Boltor Prime?   

 

Pellet spread is already enough of a downside the shotguns have, they don't need to do less damage further away, because most of them will miss anyway, why pour salt into the wound?   

 

 

Please, I want to use my maxed out Boar prime, I want to use Hek, Tigris, but I can't afford to. I can't afford to get upclose to heavy units to melt their pretty little faces off because I can't clear out the smaller units from a bit further away, so I am forced to go back to boring machineguns and just melt them from a safe distance.  

[Nitresco]

Shotgun damage falloff is an artifact from a time where the Hek shot nuclear missiles.

 

I personally hope they remove it as well. Shotguns deserve time in the spotlight again.

[AdunSaveMe]

While the damage falloff is a little much, removing it completely would probably render a lot of weapons obsolete.

[Tenno-nymous]

aren't shotguns supposed to be used on close quarter combats? Hence the people who carry them have .45 caliber pistols.

[shut]

aren't shotguns supposed to be used on close quarter combats? Hence the people who carry them have .45 caliber pistols.

 

We're not saying that we should be able to snipe with shotguns or anything, but it's silly for shotgun pellets to suddenly transform into spitballs the moment they fly in the air for 15m without hitting anything. Shotguns' effective range should be limited mostly by spread, as opposed to having so much falloff that even a magical zero-spread shotgun does nothing to an enemy that's still close enough for you to throw a rock at.

[inappropriatename5818]

aren't shotguns supposed to be used on close quarter combats? Hence the people who carry them have .45 caliber pistols.

 

Yes, because you want many pellets to hit your target and that's their weakness. Why do those pellets that have a hard time hitting at long range have lower damage too? I have no idea.   

 

If I shot you from 30 meters in real life you'd just have less pellets in you, but they would still hurt the same.   

 

In my opinion pellet spread is enough of a weakness shotguns have, the damage dropoff is completely unnessecary. If any shotgun would turn out to SOMEHOW be too strong in this game that is ruled by machine rifles they could easily reduce the base damage or give it more spread, no need for damage dropoff.

[Frenrihr89]

I hope they remove at least the falloff penalty in 50%... there's no point... in the real world all the projectiles suffer from the same rules of physics, all lose velocity and are affected by the gravity, so if the shotguns have falloff damage.. shouldn't  we get falloff damage in almost all weapons, excepting the energy ones?

[inappropriatename5818]

I hope they remove at least the falloff penalty in 50%... there's no point... in the real world all the projectiles suffer from the same rules of physics, all lose velocity and are affected by the gravity, so if the shotguns have falloff damage.. shouldn't  we get falloff damage in almost all weapons, excepting the energy ones?

 

That's what I'm trying to say. There is no consistency in the game when it comes to this.   

 

Main point is, shotguns are weak. Removing this second needless downside they have would maybe make them worth equipping over boring machineguns

[Tenno-nymous]

We're not saying that we should be able to snipe with shotguns or anything, but it's silly for shotgun pellets to suddenly transform into spitballs the moment they fly in the air for 15m without hitting anything. Shotguns' effective range should be limited mostly by spread, as opposed to having so much falloff that even a magical zero-spread shotgun does nothing to an enemy that's still close enough for you to throw a rock at.

Then i think its the Shotguns trajectory mechanics that needs rework and not just the damage fall off. AFAIK there are no ethereal objects in WF so if we count this games physics, you're supposed to hit anything in front of you within a guns effective range. 

 

Yes, because you want many pellets to hit your target and that's their weakness. Why do those pellets that have a hard time hitting at long range have lower damage too? I have no idea.   

 

If I shot you from 30 meters in real life you'd just have less pellets in you, but they would still hurt the same.   

 

In my opinion pellet spread is enough of a weakness shotguns have, the damage dropoff is completely unnessecary. If any shotgun would turn out to SOMEHOW be too strong in this game that is ruled by machine rifles they could easily reduce the base damage or give it more spread, no need for damage dropoff.

i haven't done my homework yet so i can't really say which gun (Rifles vs Shotguns) has the better mod and higher base damage over all. Guess i have to wait until we get a pump action (or charge action) shot gun (not grenade launchers) to have a say to this.

[Bobtm]

I wholly agree with the removal of Damge falloff.  It's been in for a good while and it just isn't working out well at all.  Like others have said, let spread dissuade the use of Shotguns outside of their effective range.  No need for the pellets to just magically turn into snowflakes after X meters.

[BluelitHalo]

Damage falloff is redundancy at its finest. Remove it and let spread limit range.

[Noble_Cactus]

I booted up Quake 2 the other day.

 

I had a jolly good time killing Grineer Strogg from a good 25 yards away.

 

With a shotgun.

 

Shotguns have been in the "We'll look at it later" worklist for a year now. It's time for that to change.

[Suthurn]

have to agree. i have built most of the shotguns available in the game and what really kills them is the falloff damage.

 

even the hek, which is supposed to be a longer range shotgun, is pretty much garbage at 20m or more.

 

any logic a person can come up with to apply to shotgun pellets will also apply to arrows and bullets. physics is physics. pellets aren't made of feathers. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Suthurn

[Rhiss]

 

i agree, damage falloff makes no sense, shotguns are already not very effective at range because of spread, damage falloff is jut nonsense. As if all other kind of weapon projectiles dont lose any energy over distance, but shotgun somehow does, plus theres not much of a distance to talk about, 100m at the most in current warframe maps

[fatpig84]

While the damage falloff is a little much, removing it completely would probably render a lot of weapons obsolete.

 

Render what weapon obsolete ?

The Boltor Prime ? 

 

/sarcasm.

 

 

Face it any shotgun that is going for MAXIMUM damage will have Vicious Spread equipped.

The spread alone will ensure that you are not going to connect with a lot of the pellets pass 20 meters.

Shotguns don't need that fall off, because there is already mods that affect their spread.

 

Without VS, shotguns damage is only average at best with a lot of it going into over kill.

And that mag size means you will be reloading waaay waaay often, so your sustained and effective DPS will still be lower.

Edited March 27, 2015 by fatpig84

[Wooffgang]

In our galaxy bullets have falloff dmg.Even in real life the speed decreases as the distance increases. Introducing damage falloff for every weapon is a really potent alternative. This implies:

 

Shotguns: Get deadly up to 10-15m

Rifles: 15-25m Range

Semi/Burst rifles: 25m

Snipers:50m+

 

This would be a great overall balance suggestion. But then this implies we get a increase in damage when we are using the weapon in the intended range. This is a great alternative.

[Siekier]

In our galaxy bullets have falloff dmg.Even in real life the speed decreases as the distance increases. Introducing damage falloff for every weapon is a really potent alternative. This implies:

 

Shotguns: Get deadly up to 10-15m

Rifles: 15-25m Range

Semi/Burst rifles: 25m

Snipers:50m+

 

This would be a great overall balance suggestion. But then this implies we get a increase in damage when we are using the weapon in the intended range. This is a great alternative.

No way.

Rifles losing damage after reaching 15m mark? What are these, nerf guns?

 

Just look at shotguns right now. Damage falloff makes them pretty much obsolete in comparison to other weapons.

Now, let's say your idea comes through. And now every weapon in game is artificially limited.

This doesn't make sense.

I've had enough of this in battlefield series, where a round shot from assault rifles looses 50% of its damage after reaching rather short distance.

 

So basically, no to damage falloff of any kind. Also, +1 for OP

[Wooffgang]

Rifles do lose dmg in about any competitive shooter. They are supposed to lose dmg after the 25m mark. They also have higher dmg in the intended dmg mark. Artificially limited? Lets see. Atm you are using: Soma/Boltor oh thats about it. Some ppl like using Amprex after the 4th forma and red crit abuse. Other than that 80% of the WF community uses only the secondary weapon. That sums up the Warframe arsenal. + some Fan weapons like Dread/Penta and ppl rolfing with Dragon Nikana/Dakra/Scindo P

[Tsukinoki]

Problem with this is that shotguns in general dont have enough of a spread for spread alone to balance it out.

Take the reason we have damage fall off: the hek.
At 30-40 meters you could get most of the pellets to hit a single target, with a good number of them hitting the head.
It made it essentially a sniper rifle because of how small the pellet spread is.

And its that way for a large number of shotguns.

If we remove damage fall off we would have to up the spread for a lot of shotguns quite dramatically to balance it out.
Otherwise it would easily once again render snipers completely obsolete like they did originally.

[LazyKnight]

Take the reason we have damage fall off: the hek.

At 30-40 meters you could get most of the pellets to hit a single target, with a good number of them hitting the head.

It made it essentially a sniper rifle because of how small the pellet spread is.

Even if targeting the head, Hek would be far worse than most of the sniper rifles and bows. It's because of the critical hit multiplier on the head (unless DE broke that again) and the absurd damage values that one can gain. The only weapon type it would make obsolete are the weapons Grinlok and Latron Prime (critical hits are too small a percentage of its hits).

 

HeK damage per hit is high, but its DPS is mid-tier at best. 

[Blakrana]

If we remove damage fall off we would have to up the spread for a lot of shotguns quite dramatically to balance it out.

Otherwise it would easily once again render snipers completely obsolete like they did originally.

 

Isn't the standing argument that Snipers are rendered obsolete because of Bows and the general nature of Horde Gameplay with no real 'point' to a Single target weapon?

 

At any rate...Shotguns are a strange beast. I think the only game I've seen them even behave like they do in real life is Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall DC, because there, they actually give them spread after set ranges to say nothing of the accuracy. Close to Mid Range, shotguns work. Fact that shooting further targets means you can hit adjacent targets...

 

End of the day, finding a good niche for Shotguns (and snipers) is a thing. Whilst I'm admittedly not much of a fan of shotguns personally (albeit I admit the Alloy Cannon in XCOM: Enemy Unknown is pure condensed awesome), it's a bit of a pity that, on average you're going to see the same Automatic rifles time and again, bows, or the occasional semi-auto/burst rifle.

 

Variety would just be nice.

[Rhiss]

 

people complaining about hek hitting target at long range with most of its pellets and making snipers useless? How about soma or boltor prime, spray rounds on a target, you will hit it with most of them, do they make sniper useless too?

[zoboso]

Damage falloff might be a bit to rapid, but it is fine at doing what it is supposed to. re:encouraging close range engagements

[Blaze200]

Damage falloff might be a bit to rapid, but it is fine at doing what it is supposed to. re:encouraging close range engagements

Then shotguns should have damage ramp-up at close range in that case, not just falloff. but it seems pretty silly to make some of these shotguns accurate and then give them a falloff range.

[TheCometCE]

Agreed, even within their intended range, shotguns feel weak due to a combination of their dps being outclassed by the automatic weapons of the game (not to mention a miss is devastating on a shotgun), and the constant/long reloads meaning using more than 1 magazine to kill an enemy just doesn't cut it.

 

I'm sure that without the damage falloff, we'll actually start seeing people using shotguns in the game. I still am amazed how many players don't even recognize the Tigris ingame because it is used that little.

Edited March 27, 2015 by TheCometCE