Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm not sure I see what your point is?  Is there some reason you would be using that word?  Is it DE's responsibility to make sure that people don't commit typos?

Your second section is because you don't see what his point is. At this stage, I honestly believe that's intentional on your part. 

 

The point is, to put it plainly, not everyone is bigoted, not everyone is trying to attack others when they say something that people may consider offensive. A lot of people don't know what triggers you, or me, or the bot, so demanding that they avoid all references to things that may be offensive, when they have no way of knowing, is not a good system! 

The bot can be adjusted to explain things and educate people. There is no scenario that I can think of where education of what is unacceptable, isn't superior to banning people who may not realise what they said is offensive to some minority group of some minority. 

Well that's not entirely true, there is one. It's where the people who are tasked with issuing the bans are trigger happy and would rather perpetuate the memes, use of banned terms, and trolling of newbs. That's also a possible reason for them avoiding answering legitimate questions like "why did you do that" by giving what they know is an overly vague answer like "that's not a topic that should be discussed in our space ninja game". 

 

The mods and bot are already supposed to give a reason for their moderator actions. We've been told that they do. How about if we bring the reality into line with the spirit of the rule instead of just doing the bare minimum to claim compliance with the letter of the rule? How about letting the bot educate newbs so that the mods can deal with actual bigotry and offensive behaviour? 

 

The suggestions in the first post would go a long way to allowing us to get there. 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm not sure I see what your point is?  Is there some reason you would be using that word?  Is it DE's responsibility to make sure that people don't commit typos?

No its not but if its in the bot's list its their job to make sure people dont try to use it. Also dont tell me it doesnt sound stupid that people get banned over typos.

Everything can be a derogatory/insulting term and because this whoever handles the chat bot has to make sure that users are not just blindly shot down for not knowing that their innocent word is some north-american street slang for chinese or whatever. Before that topic i never ever heard of that word and im sure the same can be said about a lot of stuff what is possibly in that filter list, but thats not what we are discussing here.

Education is important and can go in a long way to make sure the problems cease to exist. As i said people come from a lot of places, different worlds, games and they most possibly dont have a copy of urban dictionary opened up next to them while they play.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No its not but if its in the bot's list its their job to make sure people dont try to use it. Also dont tell me it doesnt sound stupid that people get banned over typos.

This makes no sense to me.  How is it DE's responsibility to make sure "people don't try to use it?"  In fact, this is contradictory, isn't it?  You can't say that it's not DE's responsibility and then claim that it is in the same sentence.  Can you please clarify?

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Everything can be a derogatory/insulting term...

We've already been over this.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Before that topic i never ever heard of that word and im sure the same can be said about a lot of stuff what is possibly in that filter list, but thats not what we are discussing here.

But, the question remains why would you ever use that word?  There's only one meaning for it.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

38 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

But, the question remains why would you ever use that word?  There's only one meaning for it.

LOL, no. This suggests another clear deficit in your vocabulary. Non-north Americans who speak English can find the word in a dictionary or thesaurus as "messy sticky substance; muck" (Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition) or "expressive word, perhaps blend of goo and muck" (Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2018) 

This is probably the exclusive way that most non-bigoted English speakers would be likely to encounter or use the word. Now it's fine that in an abundance of caution DE decided to include that word, and any others that they see fit, that's not what we're trying to discuss, but many people won't know that the words on the list are there, because we can't see the list. 

 

And of course expecting everyone to just know exactly what words are slurs in every single possible way is unreasonable, just like how you didn't realise that "scum" is a very serious slur in some places and it's use has lead to reprimands and resignation from positions in some cases. Now what gets you into hot water is that when I pointed it out to you, you immediately claimed "context", but seem to have no interest in listening to others make the same claim. There's a word for that. 

But that's why education is so important. You obviously didn't realise what you did was a grave offence in some places. Just like you obviously didn't realise that the particular word Fallen_Echo made reference to, could be used either offensively or not. 

 

Instead of trying to ban you for something that you didn't realise, it's a lot better to educate you, so that you can police yourself from now on. The bot can be made to do that automatically, as it already sends some messages to people who run afoul on the chat.

And if you do continue to constantly try to flout the rules that were laid upon all of us..... Well that's when more serious action should be considered, don't you think? 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

This makes no sense to me.  How is it DE's responsibility to make sure "people don't try to use it?"  In fact, this is contradictory, isn't it?  You can't say that it's not DE's responsibility and then claim that it is in the same sentence.  Can you please clarify?

You are confusing things here. I said its not DE's responsibility to fix typos but its their responsibility to educate users on words what they shouldnt use and if you watched that thread you may have noticed that the collective help of many users were needed to find out what did this guy done wrong.

This is where the warnings come in, instead of instabanning someone who tries to cross the line, he gets warned explaining whats wrong.

 

As for the word only having one meaning a quick google search gave me 3 different accepted meaning for the word namely asian foreginer, prostitute or bland.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You are confusing things here. I said its not DE's responsibility to fix typos but its their responsibility to educate users on words what they shouldnt use and if you watched that thread you may have noticed that the collective help of many users were needed to find out what did this guy done wrong.

I don't think this is true.  Does a restaurant need to educate patrons on what words they can/can't use before being shown the door?

And, my recollection of the thread in question wasn't that people had to figure out what was wrong, but that the OP knew what had happened and was complaining because it was a typo.

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

As for the word only having one meaning a quick google search gave me 3 different accepted meaning for the word namely asian foreginer, prostitute or bland.

All of which are derogatory.  Why would anyone need to use that word in this game?  Answer is they don't.  Why are we arguing for the ability to use derogatory terms that could conceivably be used that no one should be using and shouldn't have cause to use in this game?

Also, I thought this thread wasn't about what specific words should or should not be allowed?

[(PSN)abbacephas]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Also, I thought this thread wasn't about what specific words should or should not be allowed?

Perhaps tell yourself then, seeing as how you contributed to the thread getting derailed in such a fashion. 

Man, you have got to love the hypocrisy that runs rampant in these types of threads.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

18 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

-Snip-

We still have the issue about what DE's responsibility is in this matter.  Is it DE's responsibility to ensure that everyone knows exactly what words are and are not allowed?  I don't believe so, nor do I believe that @Fallen_Echo thinks that.  So, they are drawing a line somewhere, but I'm unsure where it is or how they determined it should be there.  From my experience, people know exactly what they said/did when they get chat banned, so that would seem to indicate that DE is not shirking any sort of duty.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

We still have the issue about what DE's responsibility is in this matter.  Is it DE's responsibility to ensure that everyone knows exactly what words are and are not allowed?  I don't believe so, nor do I believe that @Fallen_Echo thinks that.  So, they are drawing a line somewhere, but I'm unsure where it is or how they determined it should be there.  From my experience, people know exactly what they said/did when they get chat banned, so that would seem to indicate that DE is not shirking any sort of duty.

it is my understanding that the entire purpose of this thread is not that DE is responsible to ensure everyone knows what words are or are not allowed, but to provide greater transparency to those who have been suspended by informing them the reason for their suspension as well as the duration, as well as possibly giving a firm reminder that their particular word choice is not welcome in Region.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

17 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

From my experience, people know exactly what they said/did when they get chat banned, so that would seem to indicate that DE is not shirking any sort of duty.

That's interesting, except for the fact that DE has given clear directives that moderators are to also give reasons for their actions. If what you claim as your experience was DE's stance on the matter that wouldn't be required.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I don't think this is true.  Does a restaurant need to educate patrons on what words they can/can't use before being shown the door?

Honestly if a restaurant throws you out because you speak mainland chinese they gonna face a huge backlash and possibly lawsuits, so yes.

In general once again i think its DE's responsibility to go and educate the masses of their rules. A simple ban is not enough education especially seeing that people still come to here to make threads like why was i banned or why is this banable.

The approtiate learning method is not that you push your childs hand into fire to show them what happens but to warn them about the dangers and if they still proceed they can learn on their own.

Thats the entire reason why i have point 6 and 7:

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Honestly if a restaurant throws you out because you speak mainland chinese they gonna face a huge backlash and possibly lawsuits, so yes.

That's not at all related to the discussion.  A restaurant owner can throw you out if you start loudly saying racist things, for example, and they do not need to explain the rules to you before they do so, nor do they have any responsibility to educate you before doing so.

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The approtiate learning method is not that you push your childs hand into fire to show them what happens but to warn them about the dangers and if they still proceed they can learn on their own.

DE is not pushing anyone's hand into a fire (obviously not literally, but not figuratively either).

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

In general once again i think its DE's responsibility to go and educate the masses of their rules. A simple ban is not enough education especially seeing that people still come to here to make threads like why was i banned or why is this banable.

Yes, I went out of order on your paragraphs.  Why do you feel that DE has a "responsibility to educate the masses of their rules?"  What is it about chat that leads you to feel this way?

[(PSN)WetPollito]

On 2018-07-20 at 4:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

 

Really!!....

I think you dont know how much  work do mods everyday!. the system is simple, if you have a bad behavior, you will be kicked. 

how can mods do this?? A copy of the text what has banned you..... have you seen how fast ppl texting on region?

 

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

Really!!....

I think you dont know how much  work do mods everyday!. the system is simple, if you have a bad behavior, you will be kicked. 

how can mods do this?? A copy of the text what has banned you..... have you seen how fast ppl texting on region?

 

You may think this is too much but we have official confirmation that a mod when he bans or kicks you, they have to explain the problem and the lenght of the ban already.

The moment a mod fails to do that they are breaking the rules set by DE.

 

As for how can this be done? Well first of all instead of actually typing into the chat the mods could get a more advanced system where everything is placed in a sample form. All they need to do is to click on someones message and fill the non-automated forms.

For example:

Hello [username of the player autofill]! You have broken our rules with your message {the copy of the users message} for this you have been [choice between ban and warning] for {the lenght of the punishment}, [reasoning of the punishment scrolldown list].

 

If you take a look at the first page of the thread you will notice that this is an advanced suggestion what requies updates to the system to improve the whole chat.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

That's not at all related to the discussion.  A restaurant owner can throw you out if you start loudly saying racist things, for example, and they do not need to explain the rules to you before they do so, nor do they have any responsibility to educate you before doing so.

And even then they have a high chance of having to deal with customer protection services, lawsuits and outrage.

5 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

DE is not pushing anyone's hand into a fire (obviously not literally, but not figuratively either)

Literally not but figuretively they do. By going out and expanding the trigger list without informing users on the new changes they indirectly push people near the fire only to wait for the small mistake they make to burn them.

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yes, I went out of order on your paragraphs.  Why do you feel that DE has a "responsibility to educate the masses of their rules?"  What is it about chat that leads you to feel this way?

Maybe the countless topics created by people who dont understand what they did wrong or why is it wrong, the fact that several people still cross the lines and yet some newbie who called trash pandas their real name gets banned instead or the general feeling that we have moderation what simply doesnt work?

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And even then they have a high chance of having to deal with customer protection services, lawsuits and outrage.

No, they don't.  If a patron is being disruptive, they can be shown the door.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Literally not but figuretively they do. By going out and expanding the trigger list without informing users on the new changes they indirectly push people near the fire only to wait for the small mistake they make to burn them.

I think you meant to say that it's not literal, but you think they figuratively do it.  I disagree.  I think this description is completely coming at this from the wrong angle.  When someone is kicked, it is because they are breaking the rules.  If DE changes the coding for Kickbot to better enforce the rules, they are not pushing people to break the rules, they are simply doing a better job of enforcement.  No one is forcing any chat users to break the rules.  If chat users are breaking the rules and getting away with it one day, then not the next because DE is doing a better enforcement job, that is not DE pushing anyone into bad behavior.  That is a rule breaker finally getting caught.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Maybe the countless topics created by people who dont understand what they did wrong or why is it wrong, the fact that several people still cross the lines and yet some newbie who called trash pandas their real name gets banned instead or the general feeling that we have moderation what simply doesnt work?

Except we don't have countless topics by people who don't know what they did.  In my experience it's rare that someone doesn't know what they did.  And, what is this general feeling?  Is it the vocal minority that shows up in every thread about this to complain because they have been moderated and they think they should get to say what they want?  Don't forget that in all those threads there are people who argue the opposite.  Can we state that there is a general feeling that moderation is working, at least for the most part, based on those people?

Still, what part of these things mean that DE has an obligation any more than a restaurant owner or someone who has allowed you into their home?  The use of chat is a privilege, not a right.  And, DE has every right to remove people from chat when they abuse that privilege, especially when that abuse is harmful to the other users of the chat.  We shed so much ink on these forums crying about all the poor people who have to serve bans for saying horrendous things and yet we rarely, if ever, hear about the people who want to be able to use chat without being reminded of the bigotries that are aimed at them in other areas of life every single day.  DE have made efforts to try and make chat welcoming to all people, save those who can't abide the rules and be respectful to others.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You may think this is too much but we have official confirmation that a mod when he bans or kicks you, they have to explain the problem and the lenght of the ban already.

The moment a mod fails to do that they are breaking the rules set by DE.

BTW, there is no official confirmation of this.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

think you meant to say that it's not literal, but you think they figuratively do it.  I disagree.  I think this description is completely coming at this from the wrong angle.  When someone is kicked, it is because they are breaking the rules.  If DE changes the coding for Kickbot to better enforce the rules, they are not pushing people to break the rules, they are simply doing a better job of enforcement.  No one is forcing any chat users to break the rules.  If chat users are breaking the rules and getting away with it one day, then not the next because DE is doing a better enforcement job, that is not DE pushing anyone into bad behavior.  That is a rule breaker finally getting caught.

Okay lets go by a simple example.

You cross a street where you are supposed to do while keeping all laws you know of and yet a cop comes and punishes you to pay 100$.

When asked why he tells you that the laws were changed 2 days ago and jaywalking is illegal and that crossing is no longer legal.

At that point would you argue with the cop , seek legal help to get out of the trouble or accept your fate because not knowing is not an excuse.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Can we state that there is a general feeling that moderation is working, at least for the most part, based on those people?

Literally all you need is to type in moderation and warframe into google to find atleast 5 pages worth of topic complaining about the faulty moderation system.

 

Also let me repeat what our friend who you "ignore" and many others said before not everybody is a horrible person who gets banned. Just because you think so it doesnt become true but if you are so adamant that thats the case prove it.

Show me threads where its clear that the user who got banned is not some petty joker, trolled person, typo maker or whatnot but some terrible inhuman being.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

BTW, there is no official confirmation of this.

Welcome to the thread. Please refer to the following comment:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-chat-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10127446

"Bot and moderators already give automated messages. All of this already exists." 

We've also had a very nice screenshot of a response from DE informing a member that Mods are supposed to provide reasons for their actions. 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-chat-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10136339

(Link added because I took the time to find it.) 

So, we've seen it from the chat mod replying to the thread, and also from DE. And yet, here's you claiming something different. Now the only way that I can see to reconcile this is to believe that someone isn't telling the truth. 

Do you want to figure out which scenario is more likely? 

(Personally I kinda figure that you've said so many things that contradict common sense and established fact, that it's you. But hey there's a possibility that the folks at DE, the other mod and me could all be wrong.) 

 

So which is it? 

 

Are mods supposed to give reasons, or are you free to do whatever you want, to whomever, without reasons? 

If the Bot already gives automated responses, what's the valid reason for not expanding this function to educate users? 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Just wanted to include a link for DE's position. Also minor edits.

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

Yeah, I know this doesn't help.. it'll get removed anyway.. just trying to express my feelings in a lighthearted way...

[Marcooose]

Well, as the gif above demonstrates, this thread has gone on past it's point of constructive feedback. This thread is now closed from further discussion.

We appreciate the thoughts and concerns regarding the Forums and their management, as that's only indicative of your collective passion for feedback, and Warframe itself.