Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, NovusNova said:

If they have feel they have been unfairly moderated then they can either private message the moderator themselves and ask or if they have been banned, contact support.

You cant private message anybody once you are banned because all chat channels are blocked.

The support most often takes longer time to react than the bans duration and in most cases you just get an auto-message stating that if you want to make feedback go to the forums.

[NovusNova]

Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

1. You cant private message anybody once you are banned because all chat channels are blocked.

2. The support most often takes longer time to react than the bans duration and in most cases you just get an auto-message stating that if you want to make feedback go to the forums.

1. "if they have been banned, contact support." - They can also report the chat moderator as well if they feel they have been unfairly moderated. We (moderators) have been told to direct users to support if they wish to appeal their ban, posting about it on the forums will do nothing.

2. The auto message is usually because people are putting in the wrong support area, I'm assuming they are either making it sound like a bug or think its a bug and reporting it as such and the automated system detects that and sends them to the forums.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, NovusNova said:

And other users should not be getting involved in bans that are not related to them, feedback on moderation is fine, telling moderators who they can and can't moderate is not.

As stated in the guidelines:

"*Warning points are only visible to the warning point holder, Community Moderators, and DE Staff/Admins. Warning point information is private and never shared with other Forum members." 

Both forum moderators and chat moderators will not discuss bans with other users.

If they have feel they have been unfairly moderated then they can either private message the moderator themselves and ask or if they have been banned, contact support.

I accept all of that, and the reasons you've given for that make sense on one level. 

But....

Please understand that we as players are literally groping in the darkness when it comes to what we can and cannot say in the chat. I have said repeatedly, I don't generally favour releasing a full list of what is currently filtered for by the bot, but it is very hard to know to avoid words that are idiomatic and not used the same way in all places. There are on the list that I have literally never heard said in a derogatory manner in my life, and I'm a native English speaker. I'm not saying that they aren't used as derogatory terms, just that they aren't used in those ways in the country where I live. I wouldn't expect someone from another country to know our native slurs, but we're pretty much expected to know the slurs that are currently bannable offenses without warning. 

Also given the question Erudite God asked, I have to wonder whether the message that produced the action even contained any of the usual triggers that would have resulted in a bot action. He didn't say "you shouldn't have banned them", he asked if what they said is considered profanity. How can the people who didn't get kicked know what they should avoid without getting even a "yes"? 

 

Look, I'm more than willing to play by the rules once I know what they are. I have taken any and all warnings given to me on the forum because I respect the position the forum moderators are in. I may disagree with an action, and if so I will respectfully try to bring that to your attention, if I believe that it is important enough to do so. But there is a fundamental difference between the forum and the chat. Your actions involve giving a reason. You literally educate us on what's acceptable and what isn't every time you close a thread or issue a warning. You go out of your way to explain what we did wrong. Banning isn't a first response to infraction, an attempt at educating is. 

That's not what currently happens in the chat. I see trolls trying to trick newbs into saying things that aren't known to be offensive for the lulz. I see the bot purging the phrases and taking action against people so rapidly that we don't have a chance to figure out exactly what they did wrong.

The majority changes proposed by Fallen_Echo would make the bot act more along the lines of how the forum mods do, explain to the individual, warn them, scale up the punishment for repeat infractions, auto-expiring warning points so that users aren't penalised forever for what might have been just a misunderstanding of what is and isn't offensive in another country or language. 

I don't see how any of those could be viewed as bad things. 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Please understand that we as players are literally groping in the darkness when it comes to what we can and cannot say in the chat

Basically, if you wouldn't say it in a public place where people can hear you it's safe to say you shouldn't say it in a public chat.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

56 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Basically, if you wouldn't say it in a public place where people can hear you it's safe to say you shouldn't say it in a public chat.

You should have read a bit further, the next 3 sentences should have shown why your rule of thumb isn't any good to many players. 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I have said repeatedly, I don't generally favour releasing a full list of what is currently filtered for by the bot, but it is very hard to know to avoid words that are idiomatic and not used the same way in all places. There are on the list that I have literally never heard said in a derogatory manner in my life, and I'm a native English speaker. I'm not saying that they aren't used as derogatory terms, just that they aren't used in those ways in the country where I live. 

There are words on the list that have non-derogatory meanings in the English language and are exclusively used in that way where I live, at least as far as I know.

At least some of the triggers aren't apparently used in a derogatory way by anyone outside of North America, so how can we expect the global playerbase to know what they are? Toss in the fact that people aren't all native English speakers and you'll rapidly realise that the what you wouldn't say in a public place or even the dinner table and what I wouldn't say aren't the same list at all even if we're both well mannered respectful and non-bigoted people. 

So I'm sorry, but I still believe that Fallen_Echo's suggestions that will result in educating people about what isn't considered acceptable is leagues better than what you have done, which would end me up in trouble with a ban for saying that something appeared paste-like, and someone like you who uses words that some people in my part of the world would strongly object to, free and clear for talking about the stuff that you managed to spear in the plains and sell to Hai-Luk. 

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, NovusNova said:

1. "if they have been banned, contact support." - They can also report the chat moderator as well if they feel they have been unfairly moderated. We (moderators) have been told to direct users to support if they wish to appeal their ban, posting about it on the forums will do nothing.

I have two questions related to this if you dont mind and still have some time.

The first is what does a moderator have to include in the message (if they have to, thats it) when you decide someone has crossed the line?

I guess their crime and what is the penalty for it but is there anything else?

 

The second does a moderator break any rule when they ban an user without providing anything of what was in the previous question? Without even stating that who was who issued the ban?

 

3 hours ago, NovusNova said:

2. The auto message is usually because people are putting in the wrong support area, I'm assuming they are either making it sound like a bug or think its a bug and reporting it as such and the automated system detects that and sends them to the forums.

Fair point.

In fact i have no idea if i have to use the community page or the my account page to issue a ticket regarding a ban.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, NovusNova said:

1. "if they have been banned, contact support." - They can also report the chat moderator as well if they feel they have been unfairly moderated. We (moderators) have been told to direct users to support if they wish to appeal their ban, posting about it on the forums will do nothing.

2. The auto message is usually because people are putting in the wrong support area, I'm assuming they are either making it sound like a bug or think its a bug and reporting it as such and the automated system detects that and sends them to the forums.

That's quite interesting because I lost access to support for reporting that mod that reported my last post and got it removed and he knows why. He's the definition of abuse and we can't do absolutely nothing against him what so ever mean while he's still swinging the ban hammer around in chat. I even got a strike on my account over that nonsense. 

Why every time I tried reporting a mod or a ridiculous ban support always told me they couldn't anything about it and I should try getting in touch with the mod that issued the suspension? 

Btw it was reported in the correct area. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Guest

[Cleesus]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Agent x420x said:

That's quite interesting because I lost access to support for reporting that mod that reported my last post and got it removed and he knows why. He's the definition of abuse and we can't do absolutely nothing against him what so ever mean while he's still swinging the ban hammer around in chat. I even got a strike on my account over that nonsense. 

Why every time I tried reporting a mod or a ridiculous ban support always told me they couldn't anything about it and I should try getting in touch with the mod that issued the suspension? 

Btw it was reported in the correct area. 

You do not lose access to support for simply reporting someone. The only reasons you can lose access to support is spamming or abusive behavior towards support.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Cleesus said:

You do not lose access to support for simply reporting someone. The only reasons you can lose access to support is spamming or abusive behavior towards support.

Interesting... 

[Cleesus]

This is going to be one of the final warnings to stay on topic, this thread is not about discussing any forum moderation that has happened to you or others. If you want to discuss that, pm a moderator. 

We are also not discussing which words you think should get people banned or not, been there and done that 30 times already.

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

Then let's stay on topic. Is it possible to get any official word on what has been presented here so far? 

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Cleesus said:

This is going to be one of the final warnings to stay on topic, this thread is not about discussing any forum moderation that has happened to you or others. If you want to discuss that, pm a moderator. 

I would like to object that by presenting actual cases of ingame chat banning, we can point out the flaws of the system and suggest improvements.

Many here has claimed that when you get banned you are supposed to get a message what claims what was the problem and how long is the punishment, this also have been confirmed by the support but without posting evidence we are technically just "spreading gossip".

I have actual video evidence of it but as you say i cant post it here so we are nullfied.

[Cleesus]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I would like to object that by presenting actual cases of ingame chat banning, we can point out the flaws of the system and suggest improvements.

Many here has claimed that when you get banned you are supposed to get a message what claims what was the problem and how long is the punishment, this also have been confirmed by the support but without posting evidence we are technically just "spreading gossip".

I have actual video evidence of it but as you say i cant post it here so we are nullfied.

Over the last several pages there has been a lot of moderation due to several people breaking forum rules, the thread just needs to get back on track

[Fallen_Echo]

25 minutes ago, Cleesus said:

Over the last several pages there has been a lot of moderation due to several people breaking forum rules, the thread just needs to get back on track

I gotta agree on that, i guess i need to explain to the guys that the point of the thread is to give suggestions on improving the chat moderation and how it is done instead of talking about what should or not should be banned and that the forum rules are still applied here regardless that we are close to discussing those too.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

On 2018-10-17 at 11:39 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

In fact i have no idea if i have to use the community page or the my account page to issue a ticket regarding a ban.

It would go under the "My Account" page as there is a Category for "Chat Ban or Restricted."

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

It would go under the "My Account" page as there is a Category for "Chat Ban or Restricted."

Ah, thank you.

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

Since my earlier question didn't get answered, i'll ask again: is it possible to get an official response to the suggestions that have been presented here so far?

At this stage, especially with the heavy moderating of this thread, I feel like it's just going in circles again... but a different set of circles. It's as if this thread has become more of a means to placate than progress...

[SongBird-MK.6]

Ugh, yes please.

This moderation without jurisprudence and giving no clear comprehension on the action implemented is unacceptable. Almost a form of internet censorship; as in the customers are given no clear comprehension of their action or rulings of the matter, no justification on the period of prohibition or any prior advisory and no room for indemnity on the given penalty. These form of moderation only considers the regulators with their own initiative; without fully disclosing the reasoning to the public. I know, it is cliché. But freedom of information (U.S.C. § 552)? I expected better. 

[peterc3]

14 minutes ago, RompezFleuret said:

Ugh, yes please.

This moderation without jurisprudence and giving no clear comprehension on the action implemented is unacceptable. Almost a form of internet censorship; as in the customers are given no clear comprehension of their action or rulings of the matter, no justification on the period of prohibition or any prior advisory and no room for indemnity on the given penalty. These form of moderation only considers the regulators with their own initiative; without fully disclosing the reasoning to the public. I know, it is cliché. But freedom of information (U.S.C. § 552)? I expected better. 

The thread is regarding the chat platform in a video game developed by a Canadian company.

The FOIA has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, (PS4)the-creeperman said:

is it possible to get an official response to the suggestions that have been presented here so far?

Im not sure, soo far the only chat moderation thread what got an official answer was the "word filter is abysmal" and a reddit thread and both got answers equilovent to "we are working on it" with a dissmissing tone.

[(PSN)Firebrandd]

On 2018-10-17 at 9:31 AM, (XB1)Shodian said:

Basically, if you wouldn't say it in a public place where people can hear you it's safe to say you shouldn't say it in a public chat.

In Britain, it is okay to say "Can I bum a f a g?" where cigarettes are also known as that word but here in America, f a g  is a derogatory term that refers to human beings whose sexual orientation falls under the LGBTQI umbrella. That innocent comment in one country is highly offensive in another - and we speak the same language. Your guideline is not a good one.

Edited November 7, 2018 by (PS4)Firebrandd
trying to make a point using a filtered word

[(XBOX)Shodian]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Firebrandd said:

In Britain, it is okay to say "Can I bum a f a g?" where cigarettes are also known as that word but here in America, f a g  is a derogatory term that refers to human beings whose sexual orientation falls under the LGBTQI umbrella. That innocent comment in one country is highly offensive in another - and we speak the same language. Your guideline is not a good one.

To counter your point I have two things to ask.

1. Why would you ever need to say that phrase in this or any video game? Not a topic that I feel will naturally come up while playing a game.

2. I know several words that are okay in America but not over in Britain. If one is on the internet enough, where in this day and age they should, they probably have come across it in some point in time and should know not to use it.

It's not DE's responsibility to teach us what words or phrases are bad. That is up to us, and our responsibility to realize that this game is played all over the world, just like any game of this type.

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

It's not DE's responsibility to teach us what words or phrases are bad. That is up to us, and our responsibility to realize that this game is played all over the world, just like any game of this type.

But its DE's responsibility if they want to create an acceptable chat experience.

Have you heard about the thread "the chat filter is abysmal"? It mentions the word good (replace the d with a k) what results in a ban. This word was used in one of the asian-american wars and rarely used by those who never fought there if its even used or there is the discussion of items what is seemingly nowhere banned, if DE wants to keep such words out of the chat they have to educate the player both old and new.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

It's not DE's responsibility to teach us what words or phrases are bad. That is up to us, and our responsibility to realize that this game is played all over the world, just like any game of this type.

While this thread is NOT meant to be about what is allowed and what is not, I have to strongly disagree with you. 

This game is played all over the world. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to innately know all of the terms that are currently considered offensive by DE. At least a few of the words on the list aren't anything that people in my country are likely to know off hand. And no, requiring us to go and look up all the potentially offensive terms we never use and try to avoid using them because they might be offensive while having other non-offensive meanings, is simply unacceptable. The example Fallen_Echo just gave, is a word that actually means "paste-like" in most of the English speaking world. Where I live nobody is likely to use it in any more offensive way than commenting on someone's cooking, or lack of skill with a makeup brush. 

 

That's why Fallen_Echo's suggestions about the bot issuing a clear warning prior to taking action would be hugely beneficial. It will help to educate people who didn't realise that they were crossing the line, or were trolled into saying something without pushing them for their misstep. On the other hand the incremental ban system will truly punish those who repeatedly offend. 

With fewer people getting in trouble unwittingly, the mods can focus on the actual troublemakers. 

 

So you're wrong. If someone has a set of rules that we're expected to follow, and they refuse to explicitly tell us what they are, then they do have a responsibility to help us to understand what is and isn't acceptable instead of just punishing.

 

I fully support DE's right to have these rules, and even support the decision to not share the details of the list, but I also support the request for a system that educates newbs and helps them to learn what's acceptable and what's not. 

 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Have you heard about the thread "the chat filter is abysmal"? It mentions the word good (replace the d with a k) what results in a ban. This word was used in one of the asian-american wars and rarely used by those who never fought there if its even used...

I'm not sure I see what your point is?  Is there some reason you would be using that word?  Is it DE's responsibility to make sure that people don't commit typos?