Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

49 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

Honestly though, to improve Warframe's region chat, DE should just copy other games in terms of global chat rooms, and only allow the players with an item that typically looks like a speaker horn (which either requires plat, credits, or some currency to obtain them) permission to chat in region chat so players won't be spamming region chat with lack of cost and force players to comment efficiently in region chat because they only have a limited about of horns or whatever to use in global chat.

Both the players and the mods can't handle the current region chat because there's no item/currency cost in trolling, spamming, or even derailing important topics in region chat. We have trade credit tax, but no region chat tax...

Uh.. And the newbs who are trying to ask questions? 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh.. And the newbs who are trying to ask questions? 

They can pm the guides of the lotus or moderators, since they are usually the only ones responding to their questions, anyways...

Also, we could just add another help-chat tab for newbs as well and make it strictly only for answering/helping other player's questions and asking questions.

Many discord channels do this...

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Just now, CrystalSpark said:

They can pm the guides of the lotus or moderators, since they are usually the only ones responding to their questions, anyways...

Huh? Weird. I don't remember being made a Guide of the Lotus. Can't say that I have ever interacted with them that I know of. 

 

I don't think that suggestion would be a good idea. Anything that makes it harder for newbs to get help is probably not the best way to do things. 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

...Can't say that I have ever interacted with them that I know of. 

Exactly...*looking at the Lotus*

Anyways, a "help" chat tab for solely the purpose of receiving help is better, anyways. Region chat's main purpose isn't always on helping others.

And like I said, most discord channels do this, both in the Warframe community and in other gaming communities.

Most of the time, I see newbs ask questions in region chat and then a bunch of comments cover it up and no one sees it, sometimes. Sometimes, people derail the topic of a specific question as well, since region chat can be used for most topics. Now, I'm starting to see DE's bots answering newb questions as well, which is kinda funny.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)Jheck7]

If they get banned in region it should also apply to the forums. That way we don't have to see all these 'how long am I banned for' threads.

[CupcakesMoo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Jheck7 said:

If they get banned in region it should also apply to the forums. That way we don't have to see all these 'how long am I banned for' threads.

You're making this way too complicated. My plan will work. If DE would just implement it. 

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, notlamprey said:

So far, we haven't seen any outward sign that anything is being done.

As mentioned in a thread that I think might no longer be publicly viewable, things might be happening internally without us knowing. That's possible, but it doesn't really do anything to make the community feel better.

In terms of backlash, we already had perhaps the biggest wave of backlash that might reasonably be expected - but that was three months ago. Things appear to have cooled back down to a simmer, but the tension definitely persists.

The last sign we were given was basically:

"We are working on it but know that this is our game, we do as please".

6 hours ago, Gizardpuke said:

completely agree. in a lot of cases, and this something im reading a lot, a simple sentence is banned because it contains a specific word. when the context of the entire statement should be the reasoning for the ban or suspension. i see trap mentioned a lot. but in the greater context, if the word is used in a way thats not demeaning or insulting, then why are they getting banned?

 

like for frost and the syndicate mod for it that freezes enemies. 

'i got the new frost mod from the syndicates and ran mobile defense and stopped them from claiming the node, with my freeze trap'.

innocent in context, but can get someone banned.

The current filter for trap works based on this formula:

[any frame] (is a, is or any word what basically points at the next word) [trap] .

You might wanna say x is a noob trap, but theres a good chance the bot will ignore that as you filled up his formula.

 

For this problem i suggested a warning system in the OP, where instead of instabanning your message is deleted and you get a full message from the bot on why it is prohibited and so on. This lso greatly decreases the ability to troll people into getting banned.

[Syln]

I never had any issue with region chat ... then again i never go into region chat :3

To be a little more on topic i prefer a clean and abusivly strict (sometime unfair) chat than a cesspool where people try to get attention by being as stupid as they can.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

12 hours ago, Sean said:

What I'm suggesting:

• Implement a system that allows people to add words, phrases, and their variations to a proper blocklist, including words that the bot cannot detect as it would be "too much" to be applied to everyone globally.
• Would only remove the actual word / phrase, NOT the full line.
• Would be within the actual Settings and allow parents to lock it to prevent their children from editing it.
• Affects ALL chats, including squad and clan.

Which would actually be worse.  Nor does this address the fact that the system would be opt-in and put the onus on the person making filters.

12 hours ago, Sean said:

You obviously didn't read where I said it would be **** regardless of length.

You could say something that was actually 6 characters and it would just become ****.
Something 3 characters? = ****
Something 20 characters? = ****

And, one can still infer what is being said.  I'd much rather have the whole line taken out, although that runs the risk of keeping people misinformed about who the bigots are.

12 hours ago, Sean said:

People should be given the tools, hiding behind a faulty automated system does not help anyone.

We already have a better system than what you're offering.  And it's not enough for the reasons specified...that I continually have to specify over and over because they never get addressed by the pro-filter crowd.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, Syln said:

I never had any issue with region chat ... then again i never go into region chat :3

To be a little more on topic i prefer a clean and abusivly strict (sometime unfair) chat than a cesspool where people try to get attention by being as stupid as they can.

Thats partially our goal.

We want a clean and strict chat where your errors are explained and acted upon with exponentially increasing punishments.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

And like I said, most discord channels do this, both in the Warframe community and in other gaming communities.

Most of the time, I see newbs ask questions in region chat and then a bunch of comments cover it up and no one sees it, sometimes. Sometimes, people derail the topic of a specific question as well, since region chat can be used for most topics. Now, I'm starting to see DE's bots answering newb questions as well, which is kinda funny.

Not all newbs are on discord, remember quite a number of us aren't on PC at all. 

And chat scrolls. When I do pop in, with extra time on my hands, I just scroll up and review what's been going on. If I see something worth responding to, I'll open a tab so that they will see the response and we start communicating there. 

 

The bots were giving responses to basic questions since I joined early this year. It's not new, which is why I fully suspect it of being a tweaked IRC channel maintenance bot similar to what I used decades ago. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

37 minutes ago, Syln said:

I never had any issue with region chat ... then again i never go into region chat :3

To be a little more on topic i prefer a clean and abusivly strict (sometime unfair) chat than a cesspool where people try to get attention by being as stupid as they can.

That's a big part of the original suggestion. But it's directed to the places where its actually needed, instead of just painting everyone with the same brush. If you check it out, you will see that the bans get progressively longer, far in excess of anything we currently have. A new player who is trolled into saying something, gets warned and relatively short bans, so they all learn not to do it again. Repeat offenders get months of not being able to send anything to the public chats. 

 

40 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, one can still infer what is being said.  I'd much rather have the whole line taken out, although that runs the risk of keeping people misinformed about who the bigots are.

Weak argument that doesn't actually work in the current system. Right now the line is taken out (not quite instantly), and the person kicked since you don't actually know (but can often infer) what triggered the ban, we have no way of identifying the actual bigots from someone who spammed caps or something. So, the current system "keeps us misinformed on who the bigots are", doesn't it?

My suggestion is for you to avoid thinking that everyone is a potential bigot, until they actually do something significant that identifies them as such. Like I've said before, most of the people getting bans seem to be newbies falling for the trolling, not someone who is "viciously, persistently, launching heinous directed attacks at all these helpless victims" the way you seem to think. 

 

51 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

We already have a better system than what you're offering.  And it's not enough for the reasons specified...that I continually have to specify over and over because they never get addressed by the pro-filter crowd.

Bad news. The current system is still a filter. It just happens to live on the bot instead of our individual machines. It's just one where an oligarchy has collectively contributed to, and maintains control of the list, rather than a single individual. But it is still just a filter. 

It isn't fundamentally different in deciding what to act on than what you are saying isn't good enough. I don't know but strongly suspect that the bot doesn't have any more ability to discern context than what is specifically added to the list (and that probably has to be written almost exactly as it exists in the list). I've seen trolls trying to get people to say the names of countries to get people banned because it might be picked up as a misspelled slur, and I suspect that it wasn't originally intended to work that way and that it meant that the original entry into the list was a bit too myopic. 

The filter on the bot is working, but it's not enough. We need more human eyes, and human brains. Let the mods keep their position of deciding who and what to act on, but let DE bring in a bunch of players who can make augmented semi-anonymous reports, so we don't have mods playing favourites and ignoring bad behaviour because they have beef with, (or going overboard because they are chummy with,) the people who sent in the report. 

As with any system, abusing the tool will lead to the removal of the privileges. 

[Zagrax]

I still think it should simply remove your first message and PM you a warning with a short blurb about what was wrong. (spam, too many caps, prohibited words) and then subsequent bad messages within X timeframe get you a ban. I've literally been learning the rules of this system through trial and error (literally got hit with "Used too many caps" on a fairly innocent post with an hours long chat ban, first offense)

[(PSN)abbacephas]

On 2018-09-07 at 11:38 AM, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I think there's an issue that should be brought to the forefront, as it relates directly to moderation, and how moderatorial action should be doled out: What is the purpose of Region Chat?

Because this is important and needs to be addressed.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And chat scrolls. When I do pop in, with extra time on my hands, I just scroll up and review what's been going on. If I see something worth responding to, I'll open a tab so that they will see the response and we start communicating there. 

How is this easier to accomplish than simply using a separate chat tab designated for help. Most people don't want to go through a lot of trouble helping others. You're still aren't addressing my extra help chat-tab for some reason. It's a good idea and it's commonly used in not just discord, but many other games, websites, and other programs with chat systems.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not all newbs are on discord, remember quite a number of us aren't on PC at all. 

When did I said the newbs need to join discord at all? I was simply expressing that an extra help-chat tab would be very helpful and it worked in these other communities/systems such as discord.

What I said...

13 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

Anyways, a "help" chat tab for solely the purpose of receiving help is better, anyways. Region chat's main purpose isn't always on helping others.

And like I said, most discord channels do this, both in the Warframe community and in other gaming communities.

Also, I don't see how the argument that not all newbs don't use discord is even relevant. I even said the extra help-chat tab works in other gaming communities. Certainly these other gaming communities have newbs as well, right?

1 hour ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Because this is important and needs to be addressed.

(PS4)guzmantt1977 said region chat is useful for helping other players; however, this can easily be replaced by adding an extra help-chat tab instead...

Honestly, DE could just delete region chat and add a help chat-tab...no more players and moderators would be complaining about one another then.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)abbacephas]

22 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

(PS4)guzmantt1977 said region chat is useful for helping other players; however, this can easily be replaced by adding an extra help-chat tab instead...

Honestly, DE could just delete region chat and add a help chat-tab...no more players and moderators would be complaining about one another then.

Assuming that is its purpose, I have also suggested simply repurposing Region and making it strictly a Players helping Players tab. I'm entirely onboard with this idea as Region, in its current state, serves absolutely no purpose but to breed threads about chat suspensions and complaints about moderation severity.

Edited September 18, 2018 by (PS4)abbacephas

[CosmicHermitCrab]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Assuming that is it's purpose, I have also suggested simply repurposing Region and making it strictly a Players helping Players tab. I'm entirely onboard with this idea as Region, in its current state, serves absolutely no purpose but to breed threads about chat suspensions and complaints about moderation severity.

I agree, it can work that way, obviously both the mods and players cannot handle the current region chat, and there's too many of players going to region chat just to "chill." There are other places where you can chill instead; for example, the clan dojo, clan chat, alliance chat, discord channels, warframe reddit, and even the warframe forums.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[AlinaBee]

Is there even a list of all the offenses and bannable words? How are we supposed to act by any rules if the rules are obscure and hidden?

[CosmicHermitCrab]

6 minutes ago, AlinaBee said:

Is there even a list of all the offenses and bannable words? How are we supposed to act by any rules if the rules are obscure and hidden?

That's a very good point, they should post that somewhere in Warframe's main website, guessing the main forums.

What's even more funny is, Warframe has a filter system...yet even though the word is filtered it's still punishable. DE honestly could just make filters mandatory for all public chat tabs if they wanted...but no...more work for the moderators...

I think having an enforced public chat filter is the most practical way of solving the problem addressed in your question.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

35 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

You're still aren't addressing my extra help chat-tab for some reason. 

Oh I suppose that the reason is that I didn't see a need to. I'm not DE. 😁

But seriously, I don't think it necessary. I agree with (PS4)abbacephas, I don't see any reason for having a channel flooded with people trying to troll, meme, and generally be a nuisance. And that's what it is like in the ps4's region chat. We get the occasional newbies asking for help, or where to farm resources and begging for plat. I don't see a need for a separate tab, just cleaning up the one we have. 

14 minutes ago, AlinaBee said:

Is there even a list of all the offenses and bannable words? How are we supposed to act by any rules if the rules are obscure and hidden?

I don't think so, but I don't know. 

 

Generally avoid slurs, (including obscure ones you may not know exist, ) generally avoid anything that refers to gender or sexual orientation, avoid using obscene language, avoid using too many capital letters, repeating the same thing multiple times, or sending too many messages in a short space of time. 

Other than that try to not post stuff in the wrong channel too often. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

36 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

DE honestly could just make filters mandatory for all public chat tabs if they wanted...but no...more work for the moderators...

That's what the bot does, the mods probably don't need to deal with that at all.

There are reasons for not sharing the list in detail. If they did, bypassing the bans and getting away with what you want, would be the easiest thing to do. I never shared my bot's full list with anyone when I ran a similar bot years ago. I kept a general list for the other mods/admin but the full list was several times larger because there were variations for each word or phrase. 

I don't have an issue with them not publishing the list, but it would be nice to have slightly better guidelines than the chat server/channel motd about being respectful or whatever it says, especially because some of the words are highly idiomatic and not commonly used the same way in all parts of the world. 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

I still think we should have a help-chat tab, in addition or without the region chat now. When I was a newb I wasn't comfortable asking questions in region chat because most players were talking about other stuff, some even unrelated to warframe. The game itself is already very unfriendly with newcomers, especially with lack of explanations of how many things work in the game. The tutorial of the game itself is actually used as a demo of warframe I heard and it doesn't even explain things in the surface level of how warframe works.

Also, I have many newb friends always asking newb questions to me in discord or ingame and it's just kind of annoying that I'm the best help they have access to.

In PS4, the community might be more constructive in region chat, but in PC it most certainly is not...

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

4 hours ago, AlinaBee said:

Is there even a list of all the offenses and bannable words? How are we supposed to act by any rules if the rules are obscure and hidden?

There isn't. You're supposed to just have an intrinsic encyclopedic knowledge of all bad words. 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

12 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, one can still infer what is being said.

So what? This isn't Club Penguin dude. 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

19 hours ago, (PS4)the-creeperman said:

DE won't even state the reasons for the ban to the offender in region chat so I don't see why they would make an exception on the forums.

Which is funny because I have posted proof in this very thread that chat moderators are supposed to tell you why you got banned, when you got banned.