Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[Fallen_Echo]

18 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I do not, for one second, believe you read a single word of what I posted (with, perhaps the exception of "memes" and "jokes"). Restricting what players can and cannot say in a specific chat tab does not make things worse. It provides focus. Are Trade chat and Recruitment chat "worse" because they have a clear purpose? Re-purposing Region and Relay chats to be strictly player-helping-player chat solves everything. You take away an immature player's ability to be immature, and threads about getting banned for being immature vanish.

The fact that you can't see that truly boggles the mind.

Okay before i adress anything else lets imagine that Digital Extremes comes down to this threads and points at your suggestion as turning the region and relay chat into a "Players helping players" chat.

Now since this is your suggestion lets get down to the details:

 

First of all what words do you want to add to the kickbot to ensure that it only prohibits "players helping players" kind of chat? This is a crucial point as we all know that our current chatbots are primitive as hell and they work off from two list provided to them one for kicks and one for bans.

How many words do you plan to add to it, what ensures that we can have a strictly game related discussion and still not trip the bot? Knowing how the bot behaves for example you cant make video and card banable or kickable if you want to have discussions related to videocards able to run wf.

This point already requies a huge storage upgrade for the bot to be able to function well, which gets to my suggestions last part what says that the provided suggestions needs the bot to be upgraded.

If you plan to get more moderators than we reached a point what was repeated across all this thread that even without any changes we need more mods.

 

Going on, if you plan to make the bot work 24/7 heres point 8 of my suggestion.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.

Does your suggestion provides solutions to problems adressed here? You know accidental misclicks and such.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 3 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spam. You will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

Does you suggestion makes the bot give out detailed information like suggested here?

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

Does the bot in your suggestion is able to differentate item name links vs words?

 

 

Im sorry but to me it seems like that you are assuming that the reason of this very thread is to talk about stale memes and such and how to handle them.

In my whole playtime since 2016, i have never seen anybody talking about religion and apart from the last american election no one talks about politics. Sexuality is quite frequent because people like to talk about which frames are the best looking.

This here is an overall update to the whole system and even if we go and implement your rule this would still stay relevant because you havent adressed any of the problems.

You could have just said to just turn off region.

 

Just from the top of my head i can already generate threads on bans after your rule comes live:

1. I got banned because i asked what the frame with the top hat is called!
2. Why is map geometry banable?
3. I got kicked while i explained bullet jumping, i said acrobatics.

And soo on...

Also on top of all this you would still have the old threads constantly popping up because you have adressed nothing from these:

1. How long is a ban?
2. What banned me here?
3. Why is this ban worthy?
4. Why does the bot kick for this?

[Fallen_Echo]

Okay, version 7 was created.

On 2018-07-20 at 9:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Im pretty sure most people already know the problems of the region chats moderation but if not im happy to list them.

When kicks happen whenever the user feels they are justified or not theres no information given, the chat just goes silent and the user may only notice it because the lively chats suddenly became abadoned.

The same course happens for bans the offenders may or may not get a message (thought this might be fixed now), the offfenders after the initial message doesnt get any information what they done wrong, how long they are banned which causes further confusion.

This becomes infuriating if the offender fell for a trolls trick or accidentally typed in a word what is somewhere in a faraway place is considered as an insult, a slur.

My goal here is to improve the system in a way what creates an enviroment where someone can make a mistake and learn from it while also punishes repeat offenders harshly.

Here it goes:

 

 

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 3 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spam. You will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

3.) When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited the bot simply deletes the message and warns the user that this kind of thing is not welcome here.

• You get 1 warning and the next one is the ban.

• One warning is universal in this case and its active for 240 hours, if the user uses another word whats prohibited the minimum ban is 2 days.

• Each new warning from the initial increases the ban lenght by 2 days while also resets the hour counter on them.

• If an user accumulates 10 warnings the bot sends a report to an avaible moderator who can decide if the user is worthy of having chat access, if the mod decides that the user is unworthy of it hes banned from the chat system completely for atleast half year.

• For the whole duration of banning and warning cooldown the users who crossed the line are marked so everyone can decide whenever they want to talk with them.

 

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

Clan chat gets its own chat filter system what can be edited by the leader and the highest ranking officers of the clan, they also can set the duration of the punishment they give out there.

 

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban.

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Users while can only message their friends in the pm system they are kept open for those who want to communicate privately. The only limit in how to talk to someone who is not a friend in a ban period is that the other side must start the conversation.

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.

9.) The bot can still kick people from the chat but as soon as the player relogs he is met with a warning saying that approtiate manner is requied to use chats. No further punishment is done.

 

10.) A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

This function is avaible on all chats with the adddition that you can select "mute and report" in squad chat if you think someone crossed the lines too much.

 

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here.

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

Minor updates and clarifications were added to the ruleset.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here.

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

god yes

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

god yes

Honestly, that's unlikely to effect a change. Most of the time, there's going to be at least some reason for a ban. The bot cannot figure out context, but humans often can. Really the appeal body should be external and unbiased to be truly fair. 

 

[Letter13]

Did some cleaning of the derailing back and forth over the last two pages. The thread shall remain open for the sake of gathering feedback.

 

Please keep in mind that reporting other users simply because they are disagreeing with you is not an appropriate use of the report button and may result in a warning point for abusive behavior, and making posts with the intent to incense, derail, or encourage the locking of a thread do not contribute to civil discussion and can result in a warning point for spamming. If a user is violating the rules, report it and use the report note to specify which part of their post you believe is violating the forum rules--specifically which rule you think it violates.

[Fallen_Echo]

Sub point section has been added to collect ideas and suggestions related to chat based infractions and rule breaks.

[(PSN)LORD_SKELETORUS]

Am 20.7.2018 um 21:30 schrieb Fallen_Echo:

Im pretty sure most people already know the problems of the region chats moderation but if not im happy to list them.

When kicks happen whenever the user feels they are justified or not theres no information given, the chat just goes silent and the user may only notice it because the lively chats suddenly became abadoned.

The same course happens for bans the offenders may or may not get a message (thought this might be fixed now), the offfenders after the initial message doesnt get any information what they done wrong, how long they are banned which causes further confusion.

This becomes infuriating if the offender fell for a trolls trick or accidentally typed in a word what is somewhere in a faraway place is considered as an insult, a slur.

My goal here is to improve the system in a way what creates an enviroment where someone can make a mistake and learn from it while also punishes repeat offenders harshly.

Here it goes:

 

 

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 3 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spam. You will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

3.) When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited the bot simply deletes the message and warns the user that this kind of thing is not welcome here.

• You get 1 warning and the next one is the ban.

• One warning is universal in this case and its active for 240 hours, if the user uses another word whats prohibited the minimum ban is 2 days.

• Each new warning from the initial increases the ban lenght by 2 days while also resets the hour counter on them.

• If an user accumulates 10 warnings the bot sends a report to an avaible moderator who can decide if the user is worthy of having chat access, if the mod decides that the user is unworthy of it hes banned from the chat system completely for atleast half year.

• For the whole duration of banning and warning cooldown the users who crossed the line are marked so everyone can decide whenever they want to talk with them.

 

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

Clan chat gets its own chat filter system what can be edited by the leader and the highest ranking officers of the clan, they also can set the duration of the punishment they give out there.

 

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban.

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Users while can only message their friends in the pm system they are kept open for those who want to communicate privately. The only limit in how to talk to someone who is not a friend in a ban period is that the other side must start the conversation.

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.

9.) The bot can still kick people from the chat but as soon as the player relogs he is met with a warning saying that approtiate manner is requied to use chats. No further punishment is done.

 

10.) A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

This function is avaible on all chats with the adddition that you can select "mute and report" in squad chat if you think someone crossed the lines too much.

 

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here.

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

 

Subpoints, these are suggestions what does not necessearly connect in a direct way to the main suggestion but could also eliminate other unnecesseary elements from the chat.

 

Subpoint 1: I propose the idea of an automatic search system incorporated into the whole chat system. We all know that various plat scammers are trying to get people buy their plat and this is both annoying and dangerous for foolish people. I suggest that all messages are scanned for containing combinations of links, real life money names and plat.

When a message is caught up in this filter an automatic mark is added to the message sent: PLAT SCAM, REPORT USER? 

If you click on the message a window opens where you can confirm if it is a plat scam and send the report directly to the support and to an active moderator to act and temporarly revoke the chat rights of the said user if it is really a plat scam.

 

 

Obviously a change like this needs big upgrades on the whole system such as additional capacity upgrade for keeping warnings and more server power to avoid downtimes, but i believe an update like this can go in great ways to reduce toxicity, trolling and overall unwanted behaviours.

Either that or they don't censor anything at all. They shouldn't be in the cold water with only half their foot, if censorship requires you to submerge in it. So all messages that get too political or too grotesque should be deleted. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

You know what also could be nice? Having actual chat rules posted in some easily accessible place. How the hell can anyone (be it mod or bot) enforce anything when we have no laws to begin with? And no, "common sense" is not an argument. I can go outside, stumble on something and shout the F-word as I fall down, and at worst it will lead to a couple of people raising their eyebrows. Mainly because of shouting rather than the words used.
In fact I can openly chat with friends or family using any amount of profanity in any public place, and once again nothing will happen.

I mean I wouldn't exactly mind if DE expected us to speak in Victorian era noble English as we slice into pieces, shoot, burn, melt, irradiate, infect and electrocute people in full gory details, but could they please at least make some minimum effort to make damn chat rules known to the playerbase? Preferably INSIDE the game itself. Ya know, a list of "crimes and punishments".

[(PSN)LORD_SKELETORUS]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb EvilChaosKnight:

You know what also could be nice? Having actual chat rules posted in some easily accessible place. How the hell can anyone (be it mod or bot) enforce anything when we have no laws to begin with? And no, "common sense" is not an argument. I can go outside, stumble on something and shout the F-word as I fall down, and at worst it will lead to a couple of people raising their eyebrows. Mainly because of shouting rather than the words used.
In fact I can openly chat with friends or family using any amount of profanity in any public place, and once again nothing will happen.

I mean I wouldn't exactly mind if DE expected us to speak in Victorian era noble English as we slice into pieces, shoot, burn, melt, irradiate, infect and electrocute people in full gory details, but could they please at least make some minimum effort to make damn chat rules known to the playerbase? Preferably INSIDE the game itself. Ya know, a list of "crimes and punishments".

Warframe just skipped the explaining bit on almost everything in-game. Perhaps they should do something about that.

[Zanchak]

Seems overly complicated and aimed at hand holding, to be blunt. Common sense usually keeps people out of trouble, the issue is more and more people seem to lack any.

When you DO accidently trip over some strange region ban that makes no sense it is generally very brief (session ban basically) THESE ones would be greater understood by people who meant no harm if they came with some information as to why.

From what I witness in my region at certain times of the day, more moderators are needed because people are just not right in the head and find literally anything amusing nowadays. Humans pick up on context, bots don't.

[SilverRook]

On 2018-07-20 at 8:30 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Im pretty sure most people already know the problems of the region chats moderation but if not im happy to list them.

When kicks happen whenever the user feels they are justified or not theres no information given, the chat just goes silent and the user may only notice it because the lively chats suddenly became abadoned.

The same course happens for bans the offenders may or may not get a message (thought this might be fixed now), the offfenders after the initial message doesnt get any information what they done wrong, how long they are banned which causes further confusion.

This becomes infuriating if the offender fell for a trolls trick or accidentally typed in a word what is somewhere in a faraway place is considered as an insult, a slur.

My goal here is to improve the system in a way what creates an enviroment where someone can make a mistake and learn from it while also punishes repeat offenders harshly.

Here it goes:

 

 

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 3 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spam. You will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

3.) When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited the bot simply deletes the message and warns the user that this kind of thing is not welcome here.

• You get 1 warning and the next one is the ban.

• One warning is universal in this case and its active for 240 hours, if the user uses another word whats prohibited the minimum ban is 2 days.

• Each new warning from the initial increases the ban lenght by 2 days while also resets the hour counter on them.

• If an user accumulates 10 warnings the bot sends a report to an avaible moderator who can decide if the user is worthy of having chat access, if the mod decides that the user is unworthy of it hes banned from the chat system completely for atleast half year.

• For the whole duration of banning and warning cooldown the users who crossed the line are marked so everyone can decide whenever they want to talk with them.

 

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only.

Clan chat gets its own chat filter system what can be edited by the leader and the highest ranking officers of the clan, they also can set the duration of the punishment they give out there.

 

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban.

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Users while can only message their friends in the pm system they are kept open for those who want to communicate privately. The only limit in how to talk to someone who is not a friend in a ban period is that the other side must start the conversation.

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

• What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

• What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

• Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

• What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

• A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

• A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

• A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

• Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

• And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.

9.) The bot can still kick people from the chat but as soon as the player relogs he is met with a warning saying that approtiate manner is requied to use chats. No further punishment is done.

 

10.) A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

This function is avaible on all chats with the adddition that you can select "mute and report" in squad chat if you think someone crossed the lines too much.

 

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here.

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

 

Subpoints, these are suggestions what does not necessearly connect in a direct way to the main suggestion but could also eliminate other unnecesseary elements from the chat.

 

Subpoint 1: I propose the idea of an automatic search system incorporated into the whole chat system. We all know that various plat scammers are trying to get people buy their plat and this is both annoying and dangerous for foolish people. I suggest that all messages are scanned for containing combinations of links, real life money names and plat.

When a message is caught up in this filter an automatic mark is added to the message sent: PLAT SCAM, REPORT USER? 

If you click on the message a window opens where you can confirm if it is a plat scam and send the report directly to the support and to an active moderator to act and temporarly revoke the chat rights of the said user if it is really a plat scam.

 

 

Obviously a change like this needs big upgrades on the whole system such as additional capacity upgrade for keeping warnings and more server power to avoid downtimes, but i believe an update like this can go in great ways to reduce toxicity, trolling and overall unwanted behaviours.

simpler solution.

Ppl stop being toxic trolly morons 

i only ever hear complaints from people that have abused the system and feel wronged by it.

I once made a your momma joke in reply to someone trolling about vay hek misspelling his name and chat mods deleted my message and i got a pm saying "play nice" 

this is the only time ever i have ever received a mod interaction...... 

 

So the question becomes, What am I doing so differently to the people that start these threads complaining about the chat moderation? 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Zanchak said:

Seems overly complicated and aimed at hand holding, to be blunt. Common sense usually keeps people out of trouble, the issue is more and more people seem to lack any.

When you DO accidently trip over some strange region ban that makes no sense it is generally very brief (session ban basically) THESE ones would be greater understood by people who meant no harm if they came with some information as to why.

From what I witness in my region at certain times of the day, more moderators are needed because people are just not right in the head and find literally anything amusing nowadays. Humans pick up on context, bots don't.

2 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

simpler solution.

Ppl stop being toxic trolly morons 

i only ever hear complaints from people that have abused the system and feel wronged by it.

I once made a your momma joke in reply to someone trolling about vay hek misspelling his name and chat mods deleted my message and i got a pm saying "play nice" 

this is the only time ever i have ever received a mod interaction...... 

 

So the question becomes, What am I doing so differently to the people that start these threads complaining about the chat moderation? 

Common sense is not an all-around solution to the many problems we have with the chat system. Many words in the banlist are not used as swearwords in any other place expect the US and Canada, some words are soo archaic that you need historical knowledge for them.

Take the word japan, cut down the last two letters and boom you have a slur. Misspell what i wrote lastly in the previous sentence and you once again can get banned.

When you do trip over some strange region ban you are gone for a whole week it doesnt matter if you got trolled or typed in something you have no idea about, its a weeklong ban. 

You might say that the plan is handholding players but how else do you expect to learn what you should or should not say when even a cat's species can trigger a weeklong ban.

@SilverRook You got more mod interaction than most of the people who got banned despite that DE has an official rule what states that every time a mod bans you need to get a written message explaining the problem and the ban lenght, for the bot nothing is requied in this manner.

You can get banned for the g-word but its inconsistent, you can get banned for the meme X is a trap, you can get banned for saying good just make a small grammal error and replace the D with a K and soo on. Lot of people get banned because they fell for trolls.

Just because you dont have a problem with the system that doesnt mean the system is flawless.

I know its easy to dismiss problems by just saying that everyone is just toxic but even if that is the case they deserve to have knowledge that what and why is forbidden.

 

 

@Zanchak 

@SilverRook

The main aim of this thread is to make sure that the banning process and the rules are clear enough for everybody to learn it. It makes sure that the new players wont get banned because of trolls and those who come outside of the english region dont have to memorize the whole urban dictionary to make sure they dont use some local slurs.

The rules are made simple and extended over both the bot and the mod system to make sure everything is covered.  Some of it are already here while others are not enforced enough, some are brand new to cover anything what the old ones cannot.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, SilverRook said:

I once made a your momma joke in reply to someone trolling about vay hek misspelling his name and chat mods deleted my message and i got a pm saying "play nice" 

this is the only time ever i have ever received a mod interaction...... 

 

So the question becomes, What am I doing so differently to the people that start these threads complaining about the chat moderation? 

As far as I know, I've never had any interaction with the chat mods in the game. I am also generally pro moderation, and support stronger bans than what we currently have, because I am truly tired of the foolish trolls who, when given a great game with lots of fun stuff to do, prefer to try and troll region chat and get newbs kicked and banned. 

I still support the majority of the suggestions as positive steps. They won't weaken the mods but strengthen the overall system. 

Remember this is an international game. Making a system that bans commonly used slurs is fine, but it begs the question "where is that slur common". Educating people by telling them how they went afoul of the rules is a good thing. It will cut down on repeat offenses by people who honestly don't know what DE is considering a slur and didn't mean offense. 

11 hours ago, (PS4)LORD_SKELETORUS said:

So all messages that get too political or too grotesque should be deleted. 

Bots can't sense context. All that it can do is detect specific words and phrases. You would need more human mods for your proposal. If we had those, then we might not be in this mess. 

 

10 hours ago, Zanchak said:

From what I witness in my region at certain times of the day, more moderators are needed because people are just not right in the head and find literally anything amusing nowadays. Humans pick up on context, bots don't.

Yes but we currently have a system where the bot does the grunt work. Adding some code to have it explain the actions to the offending player, isn't a bad idea. 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

18 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You know what also could be nice? Having actual chat rules posted in some easily accessible place. How the hell can anyone (be it mod or bot) enforce anything when we have no laws to begin with?

There are rules.

They are easily accessible.

https://www.warframe.com/en/terms

https://www.warframe.com/en/eula

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

There are rules.

They are easily accessible.

https://www.warframe.com/en/terms

https://www.warframe.com/en/eula

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/

 

And this is what happens when even the people quoting the vague "rules" as justification for their actions, don't really know what they say. 

First link and second are basically almost carbon copies of one another. 

The second link can be searched for "offen" and it appears (as offense or offensive) a total of 3 times. The first deals with usernames, the third deals with hypertext links and their content. 

The only seemingly useful one is the second:

Quote

 

You agree not to post, upload to, transmit, distribute, store, create or otherwise publish through the Website any of the following:

User Content that is unlawful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, suggestive, harassing, threatening, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable;

User Content that would constitute, encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party, or that would otherwise create liability or violate any local, state, national or international law,

 

You can copy a section of that first line and ctrl-f on the page in the first link to confirm that the subsequent section is practically identical. (Best part is looking at the semicolon and the comma, if you ask me but I'm strange like that.) 

 

Got all of those vague terms which don't have set definitions that span cultures and countries? Good..... Now go back and read the first line. That deals specifically with transmitting things to the Website. The Game is not mentioned in that particular section. 

Third link is specifically about use of the forums (as the link would suggest) with a bit tossed in saying it may apply to what's in the game as well. 

 

And bearing in mind that those documents are actually very long and multiply redundant there's no real valid reason to not have a short version that can be referenced in the game chat via "/rules" or something like it. 

 

Look, I get it. Believe me I get it. The rules need to be vague to cover all the possible unexpected things that people may try and pull. Unfortunately that also lends itself to: 1) abuse, where people with a particular agenda can stretch the rules in all sorts of creative ways either to allow or disallow things; and 2) people who legitimately don't know that they are crossing a line that they can't see getting into trouble. 

There's no real fix for the first one other than having very stringent oversight. If we had that we would not really need volunteer mods, would we? 

The second one is much easier to fix. Just let the automated bot give clear reasons for it's actions. Let banned users observe the chat but not send to it, so they can see how to behave so as to not be banned again. 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Minor adjustments

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018-10-11 at 12:12 PM, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

There are rules.

They are easily accessible.

https://www.warframe.com/en/terms

https://www.warframe.com/en/eula

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/

Thats nice and all expect that is as useful as the an umodded lato against lephantis. 

Those rules are soo vague that you cant simply reference them, its like the opening chat message:

" f-word the defection missions, they are bugged as hell", did this broke any rules? From the chat point i may be profane, it could count asbeing unrespectful to the devs. If we put in the rules what you posted it can be objectionable and abusive too, can break the code of conduct because its not constructive at all and sounds agressive.

And yet this message is perfectly fine, because nor the mods nor the bots ban for it what means that the ingame chat operates on different rules.

[Gnohme]

People far too often use comedy as a shield for insensitivity and projection of their personal (often political) views. Just because it was a "one-off" doesn't inherently mean it can't be offensive. It's not comedy if no one is laughing. I really don't understand this compulsivity people have where if they're told not to say something they constantly want to shout it out. Free speech is cool and all but when you're using someone else's platform to speak through, they can censor you all they want.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Gnohme

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Gnohme said:

People far too often use comedy as a shield for insensitivity and projection of their personal (often political) views. Just because it was a "one-off" doesn't inherently mean it can't be offensive. It's not comedy if no one is laughing. I really don't understand this compulsivity people have where if they're told not to say something they constantly want to shout it out. Free speech is cool and all but when you're using someone else's platform to speak through, they can censor you all they want.

We here dont really have problem with what is censored and what is not (thought some examples are starting to tip the scale) our main problem is how the censor works.

Instaban, no info on duration, no info on what you did wrong, no info on how long the punishment is. Seriosuly theres a post somewhere in general discussion or general feedback where someone reported that the chats simply dont work, i would bet half my plat on it that he got banned and hasnt even realized.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Gnohme said:

People far too often use comedy as a shield for insensitivity and projection of their personal (often political) views. Just because it was a "one-off" doesn't inherently mean it can't be offensive. It's not comedy if no one is laughing. I really don't understand this compulsivity people have where if they're told not to say something they constantly want to shout it out. Free speech is cool and all but when you're using someone else's platform to speak through, they can censor you all they want.

Right, and believe me, I have no problem with those people getting their socks pulled up. Hard. 

But we also have people encouraging (read trolling), newbs into saying things that result in getting kicked or banned. A big part of the reason why they can is that not everyone knows what words are considered offensive or slurs. This is an international game, and a lot of the words are only idiomatically offensive in specific places. 

If some version of the system Fallen_Echo proposed can adopted, people who accidentally (or were induced to) cross the line, would be educated. If they persist, then they get punished. If they repeat the offense in a short time, the punishment scales up. 

 

Right now, the moderators are supposed to give reasons for their moderator actions. That's the position of DE and the chat mods that replied here. Over the last couple of weeks on the forum I've seen stuff that suggests that it is not being done at all times. 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Right now, the moderators are supposed to give reasons for their moderator actions.

The thing is, this is literally impossible sometimes. When you get a total chat suspension, you cannot receive any messages. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

The thing is, this is literally impossible sometimes. When you get a total chat suspension, you cannot receive any messages. 

Yeah, this is why I support some of the changes Fallen_Echo suggested, despite having some hesitation about them. 

We're in accord about letting them see but not contribute to the chats, and honestly if that means letting at least some of the banned parties have chat access to only their clans or in game friends or something, I am willing to concede that it's still leagues better than what we have in game right now. 

The basis of the suggestion is education. If people can learn from their mistakes then they will stop doing it. If you can't learn what behaviour you need to avoid, you're doomed to repeat it until you can guess why you got in trouble. 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If people can learn from their mistakes then they will stop doing it. If you can't learn what behaviour you need to avoid, you're doomed to repeat it until you can guess why you got in trouble. 

You're not allowed to learn from other people's mistakes either. Someone got banned in region chat over some very tame language, and I asked in region, "Why did he get banned? Is that really considered profanity?"

I was PM'd by the chat moderator, "That's not an appropriate topic for our space-ninja game!" When I asked why not, he said something along the lines of "Suspensions are only between the person who got banned and Support."

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

You're not allowed to learn from other people's mistakes either. Someone got banned in region chat over some very tame language, and I asked in region, "Why did he get banned? Is that really considered profanity?"

I was PM'd by the chat moderator, "That's not an appropriate topic for our space-ninja game!" When I asked why not, he said something along the lines of "Suspensions are only between the person who got banned and Support."

I can believe that.

Like I've said in the past, intentionally vague rules are sometimes favoured because they allow for the most leeway to act. They should allow the mod teams flexibility in both directions, strict when needed and lenient when possible. But this is something that will always be, must always be affected by the human who is taking action, and also the group of personalities who act as oversight on one another. It can lead to people acting in ways that are detrimental to the actual goal, while truly believing that their actions are justified. 

Unfortunately this means that I figure that the human moderation actions are the subject for a totally different thread, which may be even more difficult to keep open. 

 

It's my overall hope that a better automated system, which is designed to help "educate" the people it's taking action against, instead of one designed with "punishment" as the raison d'être, will take a lot of the load off of the human mods, so that they can focus on the major infractions instead of trying to be 'bad word police'. Maybe then they'll be able to take the cue and, find the time to explain their actions. Maybe not. Who knows? 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

intentionally vague rules are sometimes favoured because they allow for the most leeway to act.

Yes but I'm not quite sure that this is a good thing. Simply asking why someone got banned should not be against the rules.

[NovusNova]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Yes but I'm not quite sure that this is a good thing. Simply asking why someone got banned should not be against the rules.

And other users should not be getting involved in bans that are not related to them, feedback on moderation is fine, telling moderators who they can and can't moderate is not.

As stated in the guidelines:

"*Warning points are only visible to the warning point holder, Community Moderators, and DE Staff/Admins. Warning point information is private and never shared with other Forum members." 

Both forum moderators and chat moderators will not discuss bans with other users.

If they have feel they have been unfairly moderated then they can either private message the moderator themselves and ask or if they have been banned, contact support.