Zephyr's Tail Wind could do with some changes

[Prof_Blocks_007]

In the rework, Zephyr’s Tail Wind gained a lot of speed, but lost a lot of its control, and her overall movement flow suffered (due to other changes). In this thread, I will be going over the main issues, and making some suggestions.

All clips were recorded with a 70% duration build (except for the abrupt halt issue, which used a 139% duration build).

 

Tail Wind’s dash speed and momentum

The speed of Tail Wind was increased, and momentum was added. This is great for crossing the Plains of Eidolon and large tiles (e.g. the Corpus Hangar), but unusable in medium sized tiles, without modding for a lower duration (which in turn limits her 3 and 4). This also means that Tail Wind is locked to one duration for the entire mission.

Suggestion: Allow Tail Wind to be canceled by casting it again during the dash (the same way as Revenant’s Reave ability).

This would enable players to use a high duration build for large distances, and a solid duration on Turbulence/Tornado, while still being able to perform shorter dashes where desired.

 

The loss of the quick ground launch

This one is more of a personal issue (though I am not the only one to have expressed it).

Pre-rework, casting Tail Wind while on the ground launched Zephyr straight up into the air. Post-rework, Tail Wind was changed to always perform the dash, and the launch was moved to a ~2 second charge up, which also locks Zephyr in place for a duration (though it can be canceled with roll/melee/Tail Wind).

The instant launch was a major part of Zephyr for me - being able to swiftly take to the air and rain chaos with Angstrum/Ogris/Kulstar/Staticor etc while gliding around was great fun. The ascent could even be stopped with any use of aim glide, making it usable in any tile height.

Bullet jump and Tail Wind’s dash can be used instead, but the dash has control issues (with the momentum), while bullet jump lacks the speed and ‘extra floatiness’ of the launch.

Suggestion: Currently, looking down and casting Tail Wind while on the ground causes the dash to launch upwards/forwards, depending on the angle. At very steep angles, the launch angle varies significantly for even a small difference in camera angle.

It currently looks like this:

Spoiler

 

The suggestion is to change casting at a steep angle into a quick launch (no charge time, but no hover), while keeping the shallow angle cast as a dash. The hold to charge launch + hover would remain as is.

It’d look something like this:

Spoiler

 

 

Abrupt halt on Tail Wind dash

There is an abrupt stop if Zephyr is on or close to the ground when Tail Wind ends. This is particularly noticeable on a build with Jet Stream and some sprint speed fitted:

Spoiler

 

 

Momentum issues with Tail Wind dash

Using aim glide or jump after the dash ends causes Zephyr to ascend even further, often out of bounds. This only applies to vertical movement - completely horizontal dashes have no issues. The effect isn’t as strong if you wait until the ascent has stopped, but it is still awkward to try and play around.

Here is a quick demo of the issue:

Spoiler

 

This won’t really be an issue if the (quick) launch is re-introduced, as that can be used for ascents instead, but is still worth mentioning, if only for completeness.

 

Passive turns off after using Tail Wind dash

Zephyr’s slow-fall passive is turned off after using the dash. Using jump turns it back on, but this can only be done once ‘per flight’. Here is a demonstration of the bug, using the Synthesis scanner to show the falling speed:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Prof_Blocks_007

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I agree with all of these and pointed them out as well but DE doesn't care, which is why we have the Zephyr we have now. There's also members of the community who would rather tell you to "don't use tailwind" instead of asking DE to make it plausible for indoor use. 

Good luck garnering attention.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I agree with all of these and pointed them out as well but DE doesn't care, which is why we have the Zephyr we have now. There's also members of the community who would rather tell you to "don't use tailwind" instead of asking DE to make it plausible for indoor use. 

Good luck garnering attention.

Yeah 😞

Either way, I'd rather try my damnedest and still fail, than not try at all.

[KaijuKraid]

At first I was a little confused with your wording about the Dashing on the first part, but I think I get it.

These would be all nice fixes for Zephyr honestly. I sometimes get some interesting bugs where, inconsistantly, I can use my Tailwind to go into the air and then sometimes clip through ceilings while other times I won't. Sometimes I get stuck on geometry while other times, in the same locations, I won't.

But the worse is definitely the abrupting stopping on Tail Wind. I love using Jet Stream Augment, modded a nice Duration and Power build for it. However it would be nice if I didn't have to aim it slightly upwards and then go into a slide to make it not abruptly stop me. I literally forgot this was a thing until you mentioned it. 

Edit: But when Tail Wind is used indoors at the right places, it is certainly really satisfying. However, half the time these days I'm ignoring it and just using my speed from Jet Stream and my Passive basically take me places with the floatyness that I'm looking for with the occasional use of Tail Wind just to streak through straights.

Edited September 11, 2018 by KaijuKraid

[DarkwarriorJ]

I completely agree with your premise, and tentatively agree with half your suggestions.

In terms of cancelling, I'd prefer if we didn't need to cast the ability again in order to cancel it, because that would cause us to be forced to either endlessly cast it while mostly on the ground to avoid ramming into a wall, only to be forced to ram into a wall after the last one anyways. My suggestion: shorten or completely remove the animation and/or let us interrupt it into an aimglide or a crouch slide. Being able to interrupt into a crouch slide which preserves much of the momentum, and then set up another tailwind with a bullet jump, would be what I'd want to do.

Been a Zephyr player since after the rework, so I don't know about the vertical launch thing - it doesn't seem necessary to me, but that's because I've never had the pleasure of trying it out as it was before.

Abrupt halt after tailwind ends is jarring, but I think it'd be cool to keep as a feature, because endlessly slipping on one's feet isn't particularly well controlled either. It could certainly be less abrupt, like a small slide of a meter or so as Zephyr violently slows down, and if paired with crouch-slide interruption for the actual long-distance slide, it'd be nice.

Same case as the vertical launch thing - I don't think that's necessary. In fact, aimglide continuing to preserve upward dash momentum is something I really want to keep, because it seems like the sort of really fun thing that I'd like to use. Plus, if I needed more controlled vertical ascent, I'd use a bullet jump or two normal jumps.

The passive being turned off is... wow that's really, really bad. That's a bug that absolutely must be changed; how the heck does the passive get turned off in the first place?

[Prof_Blocks_007]

1 hour ago, KaijuKraid said:

At first I was a little confused with your wording about the Dashing on the first part, but I think I get it.

These would be all nice fixes for Zephyr honestly. I sometimes get some interesting bugs where, inconsistantly, I can use my Tailwind to go into the air and then sometimes clip through ceilings while other times I won't. Sometimes I get stuck on geometry while other times, in the same locations, I won't.

But the worse is definitely the abrupting stopping on Tail Wind. I love using Jet Stream Augment, modded a nice Duration and Power build for it. However it would be nice if I didn't have to aim it slightly upwards and then go into a slide to make it not abruptly stop me. I literally forgot this was a thing until you mentioned it. 

Edit: But when Tail Wind is used indoors at the right places, it is certainly really satisfying. However, half the time these days I'm ignoring it and just using my speed from Jet Stream and my Passive basically take me places with the floatyness that I'm looking for with the occasional use of Tail Wind just to streak through straights.

What part of it is confusing?

I've tried to explain as much as I can in as few words as possible, which may have gone badly in some parts.

Let me know and I'll edit it  ^^

32 minutes ago, DarkwarriorJ said:

I completely agree with your premise, and tentatively agree with half your suggestions.

In terms of cancelling, I'd prefer if we didn't need to cast the ability again in order to cancel it, because that would cause us to be forced to either endlessly cast it while mostly on the ground to avoid ramming into a wall, only to be forced to ram into a wall after the last one anyways. My suggestion: shorten or completely remove the animation and/or let us interrupt it into an aimglide or a crouch slide. Being able to interrupt into a crouch slide which preserves much of the momentum, and then set up another tailwind with a bullet jump, would be what I'd want to do.

Been a Zephyr player since after the rework, so I don't know about the vertical launch thing - it doesn't seem necessary to me, but that's because I've never had the pleasure of trying it out as it was before.

Abrupt halt after tailwind ends is jarring, but I think it'd be cool to keep as a feature, because endlessly slipping on one's feet isn't particularly well controlled either. It could certainly be less abrupt, like a small slide of a meter or so as Zephyr violently slows down, and if paired with crouch-slide interruption for the actual long-distance slide, it'd be nice.

Same case as the vertical launch thing - I don't think that's necessary. In fact, aimglide continuing to preserve upward dash momentum is something I really want to keep, because it seems like the sort of really fun thing that I'd like to use. Plus, if I needed more controlled vertical ascent, I'd use a bullet jump or two normal jumps.

The passive being turned off is... wow that's really, really bad. That's a bug that absolutely must be changed; how the heck does the passive get turned off in the first place?

Ah, when I said cast again to cancel, I meant turn off the dash. i.e. press once to dash, press a second time (during the dash) to cancel it. This would not start another dash.

For the vertical launch, I have some gameplay I recorded a long time ago, before the rework had even been announced:

Spoiler

 

I agree on the abrupt halt (make it a slow down instead of halt), and I can see your point on the dash/aim glide/jump momentum interactions.

(Also, a bit of extra trivia - the passive not working after a dash has been a thing since before the rework. Whether it is a bug or not, at this point, I have no idea.)

[KaijuKraid]

2 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

What part of it is confusing?

I've tried to explain as much as I can in as few words as possible, which may have gone badly in some parts.

Let me know and I'll edit it  ^^

 

Don't worry about it much, it takes me a while to fully digest information. I'm an idiot. But I still completely agree with you =P

(But if you must know, I originally thought you mean we couldn't do a straight vertical dash, which is certainly not true since you mention that you can do it.) 

[DarkwarriorJ]

1 minute ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

Ah, when I said cast again to cancel, I meant turn off the dash. i.e. press once to dash, press a second time (during the dash) to cancel it. This would not start another dash.

For the vertical launch, I have some gameplay I recorded a long time ago, before the rework had even been announced:

I agree on the abrupt halt (make it a slow down instead of halt), and I can see your point on the dash/aim glide/jump momentum interactions.

(Also, a bit of extra trivia - the passive not working after a dash has been a thing since before the rework. Whether it is a bug or not, at this point, I have no idea.)

That makes sense, though bashing two buttons for something that quick seems rough, especially given where the button is located. Not impossible though; I play Ranger from Quake Champions so I can tell it's doable. I'd prefer a simple maintain momentum into a crouch slide or aimglide though. In any case, the common thread is ways to control dash duration/length.

On the gameplay: Huh, it looks a lot more useful than I'd have thought. Particularly with explosive weapons. Though I feel like any bullet jump could've done the same.

If it's not a bug, they should reclassify it as a bug because it's really, really weird that the passive gets disabled. Unintuitive, and I don't see any situation where it could be a desirable trait.

[Atsia]

Let me summon @Thaylien to take a look at this, he's been a part of many Zephyr threads.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Atsia said:

Let me summon @Thaylien to take a look at this, he's been a part of many Zephyr threads.

Who DARE SUMM- Oh, uh... Hi everyone... XD

Okay, let's take a look at this.

Well, a couple of these problems are genuine hang-overs from old Tailwind, and others are dependent on which type of mission you're in... And yes, I know that what I'm about to say is odd, especially for one in my position, but since Fortuna is coming, the balance is shifting. If you're on the Tileset missions, or 98% of the game, Tailwind is unfortunately limited, but if you're in the Open World settings, it's surprisingly capable.

To be more specific, the lack of Passive after a Tailwind is actually an old bug, something we've been asking to be fixed for a long time. What they've done as an attempt to hide it is add the Momentum, where you carry on in the direction you were heading, meaning that the lack of her passive is countered by that forward movement in most cases.

Two of the others, such as the stopping if over the ground at the end of cast, and the Aim Glide continuing your vertical movement... I'm actually fairly sure that these are mistaken attempts by DE to cater to the weird, shouty and un-informed rework thread makers that plagued 2017 and late 2016. Those threads frequently requested the ability to 'just stop' at the end of a cast, and, in the next breath, to be able to have her Aim Glide work like a null-gravity function that would continue her momentum in any direction.

So I'm not sure if those are going away. One thing I do like about the Aim Glide, though, is how it functions in Open Landscape play, verticality on the Plains is not very common, but in the build-up to Fortuna I've been grabbing resources to carry over into that new market (DE have mentioned that they do), and the quickest way to do that is to float around as Zephyr, due to it not costing Archwing charges, and also not getting me shot out of the sky like Titania. When you actually want some fun, try canyon-running using Tailwind and Aim Glide, ascending and descending the hills while getting as close as you can to the floor without touching it, the momentum continuing with Aim Glide is actually really fun for buying time if you're skimming over rocks up a slope, because as long as you have upwards momentum, you won't suffer from the immediate stop that comes with being too low to the ground at the end of the cast... odd, but fun.

The vertical jump? I loved it, but apparently not a lot of people did overall. It was the most requested 'remove this pls' feature of Tailwind because nobody understood what it was for.

So we have the launch instead. And while that, in itself, isn't a bad thing... the actual execution of it is. A stationary charge up? For a locked hover that is no better, really, than standing on a box somewhere? Not really something we can get behind. But still, it's something they went to the trouble of programming in for us, so I think we should make use of it in some way.

And as for the big one, the Momentum itself... that one I have a more in-depth fix for.

I call it all the Big Tailwind Fix. It comes in three parts; simple, obvious and complex. And I've Spoilered it in case people aren't interested.

Spoiler

1. The simple:

Dive Bomb needs an Aiming Reticle change, just a little hint to say 'this is Dive Bomb, not Tailwind'.

2. The Obvious:

Why is the Hover a stationary cast? Let us cast it while mobile, charging it as we move to get the right position, and charging it in the air to lock our position and cancel Momentum. 

A half-body animation, so it still interrupts reloads and other actions, but it means we're not squatting down and waiting to fart out the lifting gas for the hover every time we want to use it.

The key here is that you can then cast the Hover in order to halt your movement after a Tailwind. Not only cancelling your movement, but still placing you in the air and not forcing you to drop out of it.

3. The Complex:

De-couple Tailwind from Duration. What's causing the problems with Tailwind's movement is that it's all based only on Duration. A long Duration makes you not only travel further, but you do it at increased speed, so we need to find a way to make that not only manageable, but moddable.

The initial distance travelled should be on Range. Something that is optional to mod for on Zephyr, but unwise to mod negatively. A quick cast and a guaranteed distance travelled.

The Momentum, though, would be on Strength, something that is even more optional to mod for on Zephyr, and often can be dumped in favour of getting a wider Turbulence range to help with personal defense. The key being that Momentum, at base, conserves only around 50% of your flight speed, meaning that you still travel in a straight line after the distance has finished, but you slow down to 50% of that speed and have the equivalent of hang-time.

In modding terms, then, dropping 60% Strength with an Overextended mod would cause you to travel at -60% of that 50%, for a light and lazy hang time of around 30% conserved momentum. Meanwhile building for silly amounts of Strength to get a super-powerful Jet Stream and Tornado build could get you up to 200% Strength and thus conserve 100% of your momentum and you would have the current iteration of Tailwind ^^ And in the more average Jet Stream build, with neutral range and about 155% Power Strength would give you a standard Tailwind with a decent amount of momentum afterwards, making for a more manageable Tailwind for the confined spaces, but retaining the higher mobility that players enjoy on the open world tiles.

With all three changes combined, we would have a more controllable, more customised Tailwind without the drawbacks inherent with getting slammed into corners (because of the slower momentum after casts and the specific Range modding), and the ability to stop on demand anyway, plus you would never have the problem of not knowing what was going to be Tailwind and what was going to be Dive Bomb and grinding your beak on the floor comically instead of attacking.  

I'm not sure what to suggest for some of the problems, because, as I mentioned, I think they're intentional. But... still. The Hover cancel for your movement would clear up the difference between players that want to tap Tailwind repeatedly to travel over long distances, while keeping that crucial cancel function that you (and a lot of us) want. And the de-coupling from Duration allows for more customisation, meaning less confusion with the ability overall.

I don't think we're going to get the vertical launch back to what it was, but making the charging portion mobile does mean that we can, in theory, use the current Hover Launch version as that. Charge it, launch vertically, roll or Tailwind out of the Hover itself when you need to. 

What do you think?

[Prof_Blocks_007]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Well, a couple of these problems are genuine hang-overs from old Tailwind, and others are dependent on which type of mission you're in... And yes, I know that what I'm about to say is odd, especially for one in my position, but since Fortuna is coming, the balance is shifting. If you're on the Tileset missions, or 98% of the game, Tailwind is unfortunately limited, but if you're in the Open World settings, it's surprisingly capable.

To be more specific, the lack of Passive after a Tailwind is actually an old bug, something we've been asking to be fixed for a long time. What they've done as an attempt to hide it is add the Momentum, where you carry on in the direction you were heading, meaning that the lack of her passive is countered by that forward movement in most cases.

Plains of Eidolon and Fortuna aren't (at least as of current?) going to be replacing the rest of the game though. I'm not saying that Tail Wind should be usable everywhere, but it is usable in less tiles now than before the rework, which sucks, really.

I'm under the impression that the momentum was added just as part of giving Zephyr more speed, especially given that the dash itself had its speed and range increased.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Two of the others, such as the stopping if over the ground at the end of cast, and the Aim Glide continuing your vertical movement... I'm actually fairly sure that these are mistaken attempts by DE to cater to the weird, shouty and un-informed rework thread makers that plagued 2017 and late 2016. Those threads frequently requested the ability to 'just stop' at the end of a cast, and, in the next breath, to be able to have her Aim Glide work like a null-gravity function that would continue her momentum in any direction.

If that is indeed the case then... ugh. The aim glide/momentum thing can be mitigated somewhat by waiting before using aim glide/jump, but the abrupt halt is gonna be really hard to ignore.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So I'm not sure if those are going away. One thing I do like about the Aim Glide, though, is how it functions in Open Landscape play, verticality on the Plains is not very common, but in the build-up to Fortuna I've been grabbing resources to carry over into that new market (DE have mentioned that they do), and the quickest way to do that is to float around as Zephyr, due to it not costing Archwing charges, and also not getting me shot out of the sky like Titania. When you actually want some fun, try canyon-running using Tailwind and Aim Glide, ascending and descending the hills while getting as close as you can to the floor without touching it, the momentum continuing with Aim Glide is actually really fun for buying time if you're skimming over rocks up a slope, because as long as you have upwards momentum, you won't suffer from the immediate stop that comes with being too low to the ground at the end of the cast... odd, but fun.

I suppose the momentum issue does have its uses. It's still really awkward when you want to glide around without going out-of-bounds and getting reset though.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The vertical jump? I loved it, but apparently not a lot of people did overall. It was the most requested 'remove this pls' feature of Tailwind because nobody understood what it was for.

So we have the launch instead. And while that, in itself, isn't a bad thing... the actual execution of it is. A stationary charge up? For a locked hover that is no better, really, than standing on a box somewhere? Not really something we can get behind. But still, it's something they went to the trouble of programming in for us, so I think we should make use of it in some way.

Yep, the new launch has a lot of "friction" (having to charge for 2s, and then cancel the hover with roll/melee). The hover can be kept in without making a mess, but I think the charge up animation isn't gonna be usable. I don't know how it'll end up looking when moving, and unless the charge time is really short, the ability will end up still feeling too slow.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Dive Bomb needs an Aiming Reticle change, just a little hint to say 'this is Dive Bomb, not Tailwind'.

I like this suggestion! I was thinking the same thing for the launch vs dash suggestion when aiming down, but forgot to add it (one indicator for launch, the other for dash).

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Why is the Hover a stationary cast? Let us cast it while mobile, charging it as we move to get the right position, and charging it in the air to lock our position and cancel Momentum. 

A half-body animation, so it still interrupts reloads and other actions, but it means we're not squatting down and waiting to fart out the lifting gas for the hover every time we want to use it.

The key here is that you can then cast the Hover in order to halt your movement after a Tailwind. Not only cancelling your movement, but still placing you in the air and not forcing you to drop out of it.

Having to charge it each time would be pretty clunky, unless the charge time is massively reduced.

How about making it a tap vs hold ability, like Gara's Shattered Lash (tap to stab, hold to swipe). For Zephyr, this would be tap to dash, hold to launch (from ground), hold to hover (from air).

It'd keep the dash virtually the same (there would be a slight delay on the air cast, as it'd fire on release instead of on press, like the ground cast does currently), while reintroducing the launch (albeit at a delay, but it shouldn't be too bad after some practice), and separating said launch from the hover, without being too slow/clunky to use (at least, in theory).

As I mentioned a little above, this would unfortunately (most likely) mean losing the charge animation. (Unless it gets used for something else? An augment maybe?)

Tail Wind could still do with a second-tap-to-cancel mechanic though, for when you want to perform a shorter dash, but not be forced to stop still (activate hover) to do so.

 

The modding of Tail Wind's strength is debatable, given how many builds (and Forma'd polarities) have been made with just duration affecting Tail Wind in mind.

For example my current/old (aka relic of her pre-rework) build has 195% duration, 160% efficiency, 79% range, and 155% strength (as well as Jet Stream, Aviator and Vitality). I would end up losing duration or strength for range if I wanted a longer dash. (My actual "current" build has been cleared and re-done while testing stuff for ideas/suggestions, so I don't really have one, especially as I can't stand to play her in her current form, even on PoE, just because what once was and no longer is.)

There are other all-in-on duration builds that are used for wisp farming, which no dobut have low range.

These builds can be changed, of course, but I'm not sure if the potential mess would be worth it, especially if Tail Wind became interruptible with the hover and/or a cancel.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Glad I could offer some good feedback ^^ So, to clear up a couple of the points

30 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

Having to charge it each time would be pretty clunky, unless the charge time is massively reduced.

The thing is that Hover actually is able to be cast after only a half-second hold, it's just the duration of the hover and height off the ground afterwards that's affected, the important bit is to get that cancel ^^ It is, in fact, already capable of that simple 'tap/hold' variance as is, if it was made castable in the air.

Because, importantly, while having the cancel is definitely the improvement we all want here, you can't remove functionality that people already use, like re-casting for further distance without stopping first.

On the other hand, you're not wrong. A tap/hold would mean that we could shift the actual Hover length onto a Duration instead of on the Charge at all... meaning that the modding for a longer Duration would still tie in to that function ^^

The only thing that would really change is that you could basically pull in your Range on purpose to counter things like the Casting Spread of Tornado (max range can have the funnels spawning 140m away from each other and 70m away from your point of cast if they feel like it... very awkward), and to specifically use Tailwind in confined spaces.

A point in my favour is that it would make Target Fixation valid. Because with the ability to Hover instead of just Cancel, you wouldn't touch the ground, you would be able to cast, hover, re-aim and cast for longer chains, even in confined spaces if your reaction times were good ^^

35 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

For example my current/old (aka relic of her pre-rework) build has 195% duration, 160% efficiency, 79% range, and 155% strength (as well as Jet Stream, Aviator and Vitality). I would end up losing duration or strength for range if I wanted a longer dash.

That's the thing, you kind of wouldn't, because with 155% Strength you'd be keeping a high amount of momentum meaning that you would still travel further based on that, and the base distance of Tailwind doesn't have to be low. I mean, think about what's achievable with abilities that have a base of about 35m; a max-range is capable of going almost 100m and even your build taking it down to 28m that's still a longer dash than any of the other frames have at base.

And heck, why not make it match Nova? With 50m base on Warp she can got to 140m at max range, and your build would still only take it down to about 40m, all of these being with additional travel from Momentum.

As a side note,

Spoiler

 

My current all-rounder Jet Stream build goes for 209% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 106% Range and 155% Strength with Gladiator Resolve as my only health (because why not? I mean, I never get hit with her anyway ^^) Kind of the build I've had on her ever since the Second Dream's Drift mods, and I swapped in Gladiator Resolve because I wanted to see just how low I could go without certain death from trap/Aura damage. Also helps that I do run an Arcane Grace on her, because 29 H/s regen for six seconds will prevent most of my problems from trap damage.

Then of course, there's the Funnel Clouds variant, with 236% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 91% Range and only 130% Strength, because you work that thing with a weapon, not on its own merits ^^

The only one I run un-augmented is... let's see the same Duration and Efficiency as always, but 136% Range and 115% Strength, still a bit of a work-in-progress there.

The idea being that with the extra seconds on the duration that I get out of all of them, plus not having to sacrifice any Range below that 106% variant, means I never lose functionality from any of the abilities, but have the longest portion of time to top back up on energy, meaning my Efficiency doesn't have to be so high to compensate ^^ 

 

So yeah... different, but similar approaches. Been playing her for over 4 years now, and it's not actually going to stop anytime soon.

But I honestly believe that splitting up the base factors on Tailwind is what's necessary for being able to actually mod this ability, by de-coupling it from Duration in terms of how far you travel and in terms of how much you glide afterwards, you can change up which builds you want to use for the different occasions.

Tailwind is trying to do too much with just Duration, and while Duration ties in to the rest of the frame, I don't believe that modding for high Duration on the rest of your abilities should necessitate Tailwind being an actual inhibiting cast when you're in a confined space (as you and I both mentioned, Plains and Orb Valis are not the rest of the game).

Personally, I'd really want to try a high Strength, low Range build just to see how much floating around could be done, and going over 200% strength would be interesting because you'd accelerate after the end of the Range, and with an Aim Glide assist... float into space from the plains? XD

[Prof_Blocks_007]

8 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

The thing is that Hover actually is able to be cast after only a half-second hold, it's just the duration of the hover and height off the ground afterwards that's affected, the important bit is to get that cancel ^^ It is, in fact, already capable of that simple 'tap/hold' variance as is, if it was made castable in the air.

Because, importantly, while having the cancel is definitely the improvement we all want here, you can't remove functionality that people already use, like re-casting for further distance without stopping first.

On the other hand, you're not wrong. A tap/hold would mean that we could shift the actual Hover length onto a Duration instead of on the Charge at all... meaning that the modding for a longer Duration would still tie in to that function ^^

The only thing that would really change is that you could basically pull in your Range on purpose to counter things like the Casting Spread of Tornado (max range can have the funnels spawning 140m away from each other and 70m away from your point of cast if they feel like it... very awkward), and to specifically use Tailwind in confined spaces.

When I say cancel, I mean just cut off the dash there and then, keeping the momentum/movement as if it had only lasted for that long, instead of the full duration ^^ . It wouldn't bring zephyr to a stop. Infact, you'd be able to do a quick double-tap mid dash to change direction instantly, instead of having to wait for the full dash to end before turning.

I think the closest example is Revenant's Reave, where it can be canceled at any time during the cast, and re-cast again without issue (though Revenant does come to a stop, as he has no momentum on Reave).

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

A point in my favour is that it would make Target Fixation valid. Because with the ability to Hover instead of just Cancel, you wouldn't touch the ground, you would be able to cast, hover, re-aim and cast for longer chains, even in confined spaces if your reaction times were good ^^

Target Fixation could get its own changes (e.g. only reset charges on Dive Bomb), but valid point.

Both the hover and cancel could coexist though - tap (and release) to cut the dash, or hold the input to initiate a hover.

47 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

That's the thing, you kind of wouldn't, because with 155% Strength you'd be keeping a high amount of momentum meaning that you would still travel further based on that, and the base distance of Tailwind doesn't have to be low. I mean, think about what's achievable with abilities that have a base of about 35m; a max-range is capable of going almost 100m and even your build taking it down to 28m that's still a longer dash than any of the other frames have at base.

And heck, why not make it match Nova? With 50m base on Warp she can got to 140m at max range, and your build would still only take it down to about 40m, all of these being with additional travel from Momentum.

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But I honestly believe that splitting up the base factors on Tailwind is what's necessary for being able to actually mod this ability, by de-coupling it from Duration in terms of how far you travel and in terms of how much you glide afterwards, you can change up which builds you want to use for the different occasions.

Tailwind is trying to do too much with just Duration, and while Duration ties in to the rest of the frame, I don't believe that modding for high Duration on the rest of your abilities should necessitate Tailwind being an actual inhibiting cast when you're in a confined space (as you and I both mentioned, Plains and Orb Valis are not the rest of the game).

I see your point. Ultimately, it depends on how the hover/cancel mechanics feel. Tail Wind modding changes might be needed, or they might not ^^

[-Bv-Qrow_the_Hokage]

@Prof_Blocks_007 Although I wouldn't evision myself utilizing it to much, I'm on board with Tailwind lauching you into the air when pointing sharply at the ground. I imagine this could work similar to how bullet jumps already work with some modifications. For shallow angles, I would like the dash to carry out its full distance though. 

@Thaylien I really like your idea of being able to charge hover while moving. I know a lot of people don't like the hover, but I enjoy it and feel it doesn't otherwise get in the way of normal play. 

On the hover however, I feel height should be based off of charge duration and time in air is ability duration. (If that's what you said and I misread, sorry). 

I have some things that I would like to add to divebomb that expand on how I feel Zephyr should feel. Spoilered because not directly related.

Spoiler

My favorite thing about Zephyr is ultimately that she is floaty and mobile. You can't float forever however, and at one point you need to come down. 

What I don't like about divebomb at the moment is that how much it freezes movement after casting. There is a small (feels like forever for me though) delay where you can't really do much after you hit the ground. One of my proposals would be to remove that delay, allowing you instantly make further actions after landing. 

Another issue I have is one that I think is related to tailwinds momentum transfer in general. Sometimes after a divebomb, instead of actually landing onto the ground, I'll bounce off the ground, and it doesn't seem totally consistent on when it does this. If it is related to momentum, I think that divebomb should remove all momentum on landing.

The final change that I want to divebomb is being able to more effectively aim it. This would expand off of Thayliens divebomb reticle, and would be very similar to how ground slams for melee 3.0 work (#NotARipOff, came up with the same basic concept in my old Zephyr rework thread). Clicking divebomb facing down sends you straight down, while holding lets you aim where you want to land. If you aimed at a wall, it would halt at the wall and let you be able to immediately wall latch/wall jump off of it. 

 

[Caelward]

I also really miss the old press to launch of the original tailwind. Knowing exactly how the launch would function made it an easy to master tool that not everyone realized they had.

I'm also going to resurrect my suggestion of putting divebomb on her melee slam as a passive ability because it would make so much more sense. DE is staunchly against buffing the ability in any sort of numbers way. Why not replace her normal slam, fixing the passive hover glitch when your character rises for a moment by overriding it with the her neglected custom ground smash. And perhaps let her have a no damage variant for when Zephyr doesn't actually have a weapon equipped?

The important thing here is to give her a very predictable way down that doesn't depend on throwing your camera around like you're in a seizure... part of why I miss the launch.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

There really was little if not absolutely no reason to remove the ground launch since you get 50% Energy Cost reduction on Tail wind if cast while you are in the air, which means you would almost always save up that energy by jumping then pressing 1.

I really wish some day they make Zephyr's Tailwind usable for mobility as in ways to maneuver the battlefield instead of just zoom across the universe. Tap mid cast should imo, cancel the momentum, and slightly make her "jump" the moment it's cancelled, take a look at Nezha's Blazing Chakram teleport to see what I mean, so it helps her stay up instead of cancelling it and have her be a brick on the air soon bound to fall. I generally think the massive momentum on Tail wind should go away since it's proven to be more disruptive than helpful anyway, forcing low duration builds to be controllable to then become a Bullet Jump with energy cost and it still feels real bad with the momentum dragging you away from where you intially plan to dash towards.