Backseat Dev: Cleaner Solar Map and tileset distribution

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

11 minutes ago, Zoretor said:

Ok, you just want to try to deconstruct and tear down this greatest of great QoL ideas for the betterment of Warframe. That's fine. You won't be able to, but you can go ahead and bang your head on my wall for as long as you want.

Based on your wiki copy+paste, I guess I'm not sure how planet mastery works. I thought the Junctions gave each planet's mastery. But this is besides the point. Here, have this nugget:
- Junctions provide each planet's Mastery (equal to the sum total of nodes+junctions in current Solar Map)
- Where there are no Junctions (Void, Derelict, etc.), each mission type provides the Mastery, equal to the sum total of the nodes in a given area current Solar Map.
Badda-bing badda-boom. There you go. Anything else?

Like I said in OP, I probably missed a lot of things. Thank you for your help indicating one of the things I missed.
Just remember I have a suggestion for a fix or tweak or adjustment for any needed situation.

What? No. Seems you didn't read the entire OP. Assassinations missions would act like Junctions, in that they have requirements to unlock before you can do them. In turn Junctions would require you to have killed the boss of the planet in question.  You would have to do them. Ass missions'd are as inescapable as is currently.

You don't seem to understand that this system is really mostly just a UI QoL rework. It's much more than that, but basically that's what this is... We're not really changing much, except instead of following an arbitrary path through arbitrarily and senselessly laid out mission nodes, you're choosing what missions to do, always under the regulations of the Assassination mission unlock requirement or Junction requirements...

tho doesnt help that you put feedback in general chat forums.

your idea is not a QoL idea as your forcing a downgrade of mission progress to simplified means an will never see the light of day in game.
as your idea fits more into a browser based 2D sidescroller game instead of what warfame is.
 

 

 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

16 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And there goes the lack of humility again. Trust me, you don't have anywhere near the level of clout to portray your ideas in such absolute terms.

think this OP is some privileged 12 year old that has never had anyone say no to them 

[Zoretor]

14 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

But, in a time where DE's attention is split between big-ticket new content (Fortuna, Railjack) and reworking old content that is in serious need of a touch-up (melee 3.0, Archwing, pets, bringing Trials back LOL), do you really think their time is well-spent on improving something that you admit is "good enough" and "functional"? Especially with the current emotional climate regarding the "content drought".

I don't personally care about or acknowledge the "content drought".
True, DE's spinning lots of plates already, but hey, this could be implemented 2 years in the future, whatever. I'm just throwing the idea out there. I wish it was implemented yesterday, but, yeah.

9 hours ago, fishworshipper said:

Dude, no. One tileset per planet is garbage and compromises lore, demolishes any sense of scale or environmental storytelling, and makes every planet aesthetically boring.

Furthermore, I like the lines. They’re nice, flowy, and tell us exactly what we need to complete to unlock various areas. Making the mission select screen literally be a drop-down menu would take away the unique aesthetic flavor that the Star Chart currently has and turn it into Microsoft Excel But With Gun’s.

 

8 hours ago, Zanchak said:

One tileset per planet? No.

I fell in love with this game for all the different things I could see and find in different maps, right from the start. If I was new, stuck on one planet seeing the same thing every mission? Ugh boring.

The lines to nodes make it really easy to see everything, it's connect the dots. You'd have to be really dim-witted not to work it out just by looking at it.

There used to be just a bunch of boxes and no clear indication of how to open other planets, the current layout is way more new player friendly and doesnt need changing.

As for any changes needing to be "waaaaaaay better".. an icon slapped in the middle of a planet? This method is boring (1 tileset, really no), ugly, adds more clicks to an already functional and streamlined node map, therefore, it's worse not better.

The lines and nodes are arbitrary, artificial and clunky. They're not placed for a reason, or as "lore-food", or anything. They're clearly an "out-of-control" UI system that is even bad for "future-proofing", like if they want to add new missions or something like that, they'd have to add more nodes, which is even more annoying and visually noisy.
Yes, the lines are smooth. Yes, the nodes have fancy names. But they don't mean anything!

We have space/orbital dropships (Lisets n' whatnot). We can go to any part of any planet in an instant. We're not taking a stroll down the yellow brick road...
ingle icon with mission select screen reflects this better. You're doing black ops strikes on the Grineer Forest Complexes, wherever they are. Who cares if there's a node in India, Russia, or Tazmania? Especially in Warframe's warped and thousands-of-years-in-the-future Solar System...

Sense of scale? Environmental storytelling? Where? Because a node is called "Stickney" (Phobos' biggest crater)? And that node is arbitrarily a Survival node? Who cares? How is that "environmental storytelling? How is an icon expressing Phobos' "Mine Complex" (with Grineer Asteroid tileset or a Corpus version of it) not more immersive? You're running around the whole of Phobos' mine complex, through the twisting tunnels and such. Why would it be in just it's main crater area, when the tileset doesn't even reflect that?...
It's hard to put into words the idea of it being more immersieve, but the icon is an abstraction, like I've said. Each planet/area's icon expresses what that planet/area is about, what operations are going on, what factions controls it, etc.

The mission menu would be as time-consuming as when you choose an Alert/Sorie/Syndicate mission... woe!

 

[Zoretor]

21 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And there goes the lack of humility again. Trust me, you don't have anywhere near the level of clout to portray your ideas in such absolute terms.

Ok, ok, I'm playing around. I'm sorry. Seriously though, I'm playing around because I truly believe this system to be better. It's not lack of humility, it's passion. No BS. I hope you (everyone) can understand that.

[Zoretor]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

tho doesnt help that you put feedback in general chat forums.

your idea is not a QoL idea as your forcing a downgrade of mission progress to simplified means an will never see the light of day in game.
as your idea fits more into a browser based 2D sidescroller game instead of what warfame is.
 

think this OP is some privileged 12 year old that has never had anyone say no to them 

You'd be surprised...

Anyway, I'd like to go back to talking about (and me defending) this system, and not personal bashing. 

It's not quite feedback, though. It's a mix of feedback, new idea and concepts, and discussion about the current Solar Map.
You could also ask why isn't this in UI forums...
It's not "general chat", by the way. It's "general discussion", which is what we're doing.

My idea is a QoL idea. Maybe not for you, but I'm not sure you get the concept as a whole. I'm convinced you don't. Especially because you say it's like a browser based yadda yadda, but here's a mind-blower for you: Warframe already has mission select menus in the form of world-state menu and Bounties menu.

And yes, this will probably never be implemented. But who knows, DE might come to this same conclusion on their own, eventually, when one or two or all of the planets are filled to the brim with frikkin' diamonds and scribbles...

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1 hour ago, Zoretor said:

You'd be surprised...

Anyway, I'd like to go back to talking about (and me defending) this system, and not personal bashing. 

It's not quite feedback, though. It's a mix of feedback, new idea and concepts, and discussion about the current Solar Map.
You could also ask why isn't this in UI forums...
It's not "general chat", by the way. It's "general discussion", which is what we're doing.

My idea is a QoL idea. Maybe not for you, but I'm not sure you get the concept as a whole. I'm convinced you don't. Especially because you say it's like a browser based yadda yadda, but here's a mind-blower for you: Warframe already has mission select menus in the form of world-state menu and Bounties menu.

And yes, this will probably never be implemented. But who knows, DE might come to this same conclusion on their own, eventually, when one or two or all of the planets are filled to the brim with frikkin' diamonds and scribbles...

Tho this is feedback based topic in general chat topic area.
you are suggesting DE change to your dumbed down mission selection instead of the mission node progression

DE has drop down menus on mission nodes with multiple mission instances
from alert, sydnicate, fissure, sortie an event missions going on..
But your wanting a single drop down menus showing just the basic missions going on.

[LascarCapable]

Moving to general feedback.

[Zanchak]

On 2018-10-22 at 1:56 AM, Zoretor said:

I don't personally care about or acknowledge the "content drought".
True, DE's spinning lots of plates already, but hey, this could be implemented 2 years in the future, whatever. I'm just throwing the idea out there. I wish it was implemented yesterday, but, yeah.

 

The lines and nodes are arbitrary, artificial and clunky. They're not placed for a reason, or as "lore-food", or anything. They're clearly an "out-of-control" UI system that is even bad for "future-proofing", like if they want to add new missions or something like that, they'd have to add more nodes, which is even more annoying and visually noisy.
Yes, the lines are smooth. Yes, the nodes have fancy names. But they don't mean anything!

We have space/orbital dropships (Lisets n' whatnot). We can go to any part of any planet in an instant. We're not taking a stroll down the yellow brick road...
ingle icon with mission select screen reflects this better. You're doing black ops strikes on the Grineer Forest Complexes, wherever they are. Who cares if there's a node in India, Russia, or Tazmania? Especially in Warframe's warped and thousands-of-years-in-the-future Solar System...

Sense of scale? Environmental storytelling? Where? Because a node is called "Stickney" (Phobos' biggest crater)? And that node is arbitrarily a Survival node? Who cares? How is that "environmental storytelling? How is an icon expressing Phobos' "Mine Complex" (with Grineer Asteroid tileset or a Corpus version of it) not more immersive? You're running around the whole of Phobos' mine complex, through the twisting tunnels and such. Why would it be in just it's main crater area, when the tileset doesn't even reflect that?...
It's hard to put into words the idea of it being more immersieve, but the icon is an abstraction, like I've said. Each planet/area's icon expresses what that planet/area is about, what operations are going on, what factions controls it, etc.

The mission menu would be as time-consuming as when you choose an Alert/Sorie/Syndicate mission... woe!

 

The lines and nodes are part of a story. They give scope. You may fail to see it, but many others don't. This boring "list" of things to do removes all imagination from the "story" people learn as they go along. What happens to things like the hidden messages quest if nodes don't exist? All those "fancy names" mean something, or represent something, or are there for a reason. Writing and atmosphere are clearly not your thing, are they? Click and bull-rush more like it.

Not everyone who plays wants to mindlessly click boring lists and pay no attention to anything else.

[Zoretor]

I have been playing Warframe with the current Solar Map.
This may seem like an obvious statement, but by mentioning it perhaps folks can understand the implication. Things like: I know how it is currently, what it does and doesn't offer and/or represent. I know how those "fancy" node names are just for color, and they're a product of past programming that is redundant and clunky. I know how some quests depend on these node names. None of these arguments work for me, because what I'm suggesting is just better.
It wouldn't change much, but it would sure make things better. 

The nodes are not there for a reason. That's your inner "I don't like change" talking. "That's how it's always been, so that's how it has to be". Multiple mission nodes are senseless, placed arbitrarily by DE because "Hey, there just has to be a Draco/Hydron/Hieracon". How could there not be?
Well, I'm here to suggest a different approach. One that is more immersive (objectively, once you really get it). Less cumbersome UI-wise (yep, even with that "oh noes an additional click!"). More transparent, as much new-player-progression-wise as objective-wise ("I want/need to do x mission on y planet to get z resource").

Apparently I'm being called out for "simplifying" or "dumbing down". Nope. Current system is as rock-hard dumb as can be. It's definately a major improvement over past Solar Maps, though, to be sure, which is why it frustrates me that DE didn't go the extra mile to really overhaul the system as they were apparently intending to but probably got shot down due to fear of forum whiner/entitled gamer.
Current system is basically a copy+paste of the last Solar Map, just brought into this "path" concept, which has made the system cluttered, clunky and overloaded. Unnecesarily so.
Single-missions-icon would also offer DE more modularity. Not just in adding/removing mission types, but also room on planets/areas to add "special nodes" and such.

Wouldn't it feel more immersive if when you roll over the icon (not click) you get a pop up graphic of the corresponding tileset (which immediately informs where you're going into, what it looks like, recognition and stuff...) with relevant information of the planet, like resources, time of day (for Earth, and maybe Venus), maybe a "completed" sign, etc., and when you click it the "missions available" menu pops up, each mission slot already informing it's relevant information (type, squads, etc.)?
Doesn't that just sound like it'd feel better? Can ya feel it? I know I do.

[GrayArchon]

3 hours ago, Zoretor said:

it frustrates me that DE didn't go the extra mile to really overhaul the system as they were apparently intending to but probably got shot down due to fear of forum whiner/entitled gamer.
Current system is basically a copy+paste of the last Solar Map, just brought into this "path" concept, which has made the system cluttered, clunky and overloaded.

The current Starchart is version 3.0, released with Spectres of the Rail. Starchart 2.0 was obviously an abomination, but 1.0 is fairly similar to what we have now. The path system has always been part of DE's design philosophy for the solar system. It was even present in Starchart 2.0 in a very reduced capacity, namely the nav segments you got from defeating bosses that would open up the next planet. DE didn't intend to get rid of the path system in reworking the Starchart.

I looked at the vine you linked (here, for anyone who doesn't want to scroll back to the first page). It's very cool! I love seeing work-in-progress videos from the devs and it's always nice to see what could have been. But it clearly does show additional nodes on the planet, aside from the big central icon, as well as paths connecting them.

Here are some of the quotes that the Lotus used to say during the tutorial, before it got replaced with Vor's Prize:

Quote

"Our enemies control the ancient Solar Rail network and with it travel throughout the regions. Complete missions to unlock new regions!"

"You begin at Mercury's Terminus, your only way in to the system. It is time for the Tenno to return."

The theme of exploration and progression through the planetary nodes has always been a part of DE's design philosophy for the Starchart. They have intentionally kept the path-and-node design central to Navigation throughout almost all of its iterations, including this concept art for a rework. It seems important to them, and there are posters in this thread,myself included, who have attempted to explain why the path-and-node design resonates with them as players. Even if your idea can somehow be shown to be objectively better, the improvement is marginal, and there is always a cost to changing systems, even if for the better. I think you're fighting a losing battle here, pushing uphill against what is probably a sizable portion of players, as well as DE's own design philosophy.

Edited October 22, 2018 by GrayArchon
formatting

[Zoretor]

Yeah, I know I'm fighting an uphill battle. As a matter of fact, I believe I've already lost, many posts ago. And I'm very much aware of how miniscule of an importance this is to everyone exept me, but I'm gonna keep wishing.

The vine I linked had other nodes, yes, but I was just using it as a visual example to complement my edited pic.

I know about all the earlier solar maps. I know that paths were a driven design philosophy. That's fine. It's just that, ever since the period right before map 3.0 was implemented, the idea of a single icon and mission menu just popped into my head, and it all clicked and I saw it perfectly and how much it would make mission selection and the immersin feel more natural, like osmosis, and I was left dissapointed when what they implemented was basically more of the same, except with way better graphics, and much better feeling.

I understand the idea of progressing along a path, but c'mon, it's ridiculous in the context of instant ground-to-space ninja infiltrations, and also, someone mentioned "it's like playing a boardgame". Well yes! When you zoom out and see the whole Solar System and it's planets and areas of interest, well, to me, THAT's the board! The planets are the nodes connected by paths! Gittit? Just makes more sense, dammit.

(Minor sidetrack into re-explaining/comparing with my system:) 
The planets are controlled by this or that faction, so they have outposts and whatnot spread out (or not that spread out in some planet's cases) all over the planet/area, but why the need to specify each node, especially when the tilesets are always the same? Isn't it better to have those installations abstracted? The icon doesn't represent a node, or one installation. It represents the type of operation going on wherever on the planet in general. Do the cephalon fragment codex entries for planets/areas mention specific places/regions on the planets? No, it doesn't, because it is expressed in general terms that give a general idea of what the planet is about, what operations are active, which faction controls it, etc. It's specific in it's descripition of the goings-on of the planet, but abstact in the specific locations of installations/emplacements/bases. Who cares?. So this single missions-icon system complements the codex entries better than the randomness of nodes.

I understand quests and some other thing I'm not paying attention to might collide with this system, but the workarounds would be extremely easy, really, like slapping some of those fancy names onto the mission slots on the mission menu.

...I can see it so clearly... If only at least one of you could too...

[Zoretor]

Ok. So: With the halloween event going on, Earth is unbearably convoluted with nodes and crap. There's never been more of a reason to implement the "one-environment-tileset-mission-icon". 
Earth is currently a clustermuck. It's horrible. If you don't feel that way, you're lying. You're a liar. Or in severe denial.

[fishworshipper]

On 2018-10-26 at 9:06 AM, Zoretor said:

Ok. So: With the halloween event going on, Earth is unbearably convoluted with nodes and crap. There's never been more of a reason to implement the "one-environment-tileset-mission-icon". 
Earth is currently a clustermuck. It's horrible. If you don't feel that way, you're lying. You're a liar. Or in severe denial.

A) They added a whopping 3 nodes that are all completely disconnected from the Star Chart. If anything, this is a step closer to your vision.

B) You sound like an insane person. You keep saying, over and over and over again, without a hint of irony: “I know I’m right” “I know what’s best” and when literally everyone disagrees you go full Thanos, ignoring any counter arguments to just state your point again and say “I know I’m right, why won’t anyone agree with me?”.

We read your point like 5 times. We understand exactly what you want. The mental image is clear. We don’t want it. 

[Cicasajt]

i really like how it is now. this idea is like 2 steps back

[Fallen_Echo]

How about making it look like some actual map?

Take something like this:

And mesh it onto the globe, where each area symbolizes a node.

Each completed node unlocks something what clearly identificates why for example the marinara connect to the mantle node and so on.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about making it look like some actual map?

Take something like this:

And mesh it onto the globe, where each area symbolizes a node.

Each completed node unlocks something what clearly identificates why for example the marinara connect to the mantle node and so on.

^This is a better Idea that what OP's suggesting XD 

Either way @Fallen_Echo this isn't any different than the current node system, this is just making prettier version of the map that's there already.

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

^This is a better Idea that what OP's suggesting XD 

Either way @Fallen_Echo this isn't any different than the current node system, this is just making prettier version of the map that's there already.

I know but from what i seen in the first post i got the impression that OP just wants to make the maps prettier with some filtering options.