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Auto Burst on old weapons?


hs0003
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So the Battacor was released and it had a nice new firing mode called Auto Burst, which is basically a burst firing mode that doesn't require you to keep clicking your firing mouse button.

As a frequent user of the Hema, I'd love this function so my index finger might be spared from further ruination.

I'm sure there are other popular burst weapons that would benefit from this change, especially those that are not used at long range/not used for precision shots.

Those were my 2 cents, have a good one.

Edited by hs0003
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On 2018-11-17 at 8:51 AM, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, the ability to auto-fire with semi-automatic weapons is something that should have been there from the start.

So then what you're looking for is every semi auto weapon being changed to full auto. Because that is essentially what adding an auto fire trigger to a semi auto would do which would defeat the purpose of them being semi-automatic.

If you want to fire a semi auto quickly why dont you do what everyone else does and either make a macro if you have that kind of mouse or make an alternate binding for firing on the scroll wheel.

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4 hours ago, LordPantaloonsthe3rd said:

So then what you're looking for is every semi auto weapon being changed to full auto. Because that is essentially what adding an auto fire trigger to a semi auto would do which would defeat the purpose of them being semi-automatic.

If you want to fire a semi auto quickly why dont you do what everyone else does and either make a macro if you have that kind of mouse or make an alternate binding for firing on the scroll wheel.

The end result is the same and it would be optional; why do you care?

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The end result is the same and it would be optional; why do you care?

It would diminish the class between semi-auto and full auto since fire rate can be modded.

I can throw in fire rate mods just to make a Tiberon Prime go "full auto" on what is dictated as "semi-auto mode"
And the semi auto have way higher crit chance and crit multiplier making it the best "full auto" should it be capable of doing so.

Latron Wraith, Latron Prime. Even with capped fire rate the semi-auto just turns into a "slow auto" mode.
Stradavar, Argonak on semi auto all have higher crit chance for balance.

not to mention currently DE have to cap the fire rate to 10 for semi auto weapons 
because mouse wheel and turbo mouse button can simulate full auto.


it would totally break the tiers and classes of weapons
especially in warframe where you can mod the fire rate and recoil reduction.
what you will ends up with is a lot of classes that is overstacking each other due to the lack of distinction
between semi-auto and full auto ruining weapon types essentially.

having a "auto semi-auto" or "auto burst" is essentially "innate full auto"


To put it simply a M1 Garand capable of going full auto or fire as fast as you can click
vs a Browning Automatic Rifle will be no difference under such scenario, 
since you can mod fire rate and magazine capacity to essentially turn a M1 Garand "functionally B.A.R."

In the case of Warframe what we will see is modding semi-auto weapons with fire rate mods
since the clear distinction is Semi-Auto have higher base damage than full auto in the game

a Latron Prime modded with Fire rate and recoil reduction would make Soma Prime, even Tiberon Prime a joke.
Since the 15 rounds would dispose of enemies much faster than the 200 or 42 rounds would actually do
given the higher base damage.

 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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5 hours ago, LordPantaloonsthe3rd said:

So then what you're looking for is every semi auto weapon being changed to full auto. Because that is essentially what adding an auto fire trigger to a semi auto would do which would defeat the purpose of them being semi-automatic.

If you want to fire a semi auto quickly why dont you do what everyone else does and either make a macro if you have that kind of mouse or make an alternate binding for firing on the scroll wheel.

Why should there need to be a work around for a basic feature?  "Everyone else uses a script to do this anyway" so why isn't this widely desired feature available by default?

2 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

It would diminish the class between semi-auto and full auto since fire rate can be modded.

I can throw in fire rate mods just to make a Tiberon Prime go "full auto" on what is dictated as "semi-auto mode"
And the semi auto have way higher crit chance and crit multiplier making it the best "full auto" should it be capable of doing so.

Latron Wraith, Latron Prime. Even with capped fire rate the semi-auto just turns into a "slow auto" mode.
Stradavar, Argonak on semi auto all have higher crit chance for balance.

it would totally break the tiers and classes of weapons
especially in warframe where you can mod the fire rate and recoil reduction.
what you will ends up with is a lot of classes that is overstacking each other due to the lack of distinction
between semi-auto and full auto ruining weapon types essentially.

having a "auto semi-auto" or "auto burst" is essentially "innate full auto"


To put it simply a M1 Garand capable of going full auto or fire as fast as you can click
vs a Browning Automatic Rifle will be no difference under such scenario, 
since you can mod fire rate and magazine capacity to essentially turn a M1 Garand "functionally B.A.R."

In the case of Warframe what we will see is modding semi-auto weapons with fire rate mods
since the clear distinction is Semi-Auto have higher base damage than full auto in the game

a Latron Prime modded with Fire rate and recoil reduction would make Soma Prime, even Tiberon Prime a joke.
Since the 15 rounds would dispose of enemies much faster than the 200 or 42 rounds would actually do
given the higher base damage.

 

As the prior guy said, "everyone uses a macro anyway" so it's already broken, DE just doesn't want to admit it. 

Edited by ReshyShira
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5 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

As the prior guy said, "everyone uses a macro anyway" so it's already broken, DE just doesn't want to admit it. 

One thing people did suggested before is if the fire rate on a semi-auto weapon reaches 10, it should be innately
turned into full auto, since from the purpose of use aspect a player is clearly trying to make it shoot fast.

shooting a semi auto at 600 rounds / minute is just humanly impossible in prolonged duration
without mouse wheel binding or macro.

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17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

It would diminish the class between semi-auto and full auto since fire rate can be modded.

I can throw in fire rate mods just to make a Tiberon Prime go "full auto" on what is dictated as "semi-auto mode"
And the semi auto have way higher crit chance and crit multiplier making it the best "full auto" should it be capable of doing so.

Wouldn't simply adding an "Auto Fire" option give DE more direct control over the game balance than endorsing macros or allowing wheel bindings? They could, after all, just cap the applicable rates of fire.

17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Latron Wraith, Latron Prime. Even with capped fire rate the semi-auto just turns into a "slow auto" mode.
Stradavar, Argonak on semi auto all have higher crit chance for balance.

The whole point of the suggestion is reducing the number of clicks; if balance is a problem... then the balance should be adjusted.

17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

not to mention currently DE have to cap the fire rate to 10 for semi auto weapons 
because mouse wheel and turbo mouse button can simulate full auto.

Oh, so they've already capped it? Then what, pray tell, is the actual problem here? How would simply implementing it as an official option change anything?

17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

it would totally break the tiers and classes of weapons
especially in warframe where you can mod the fire rate and recoil reduction.
what you will ends up with is a lot of classes that is overstacking each other due to the lack of distinction
between semi-auto and full auto ruining weapon types essentially.

Workarounds already exist, so there's nothing to break. If it breaks, it's already broken.

Let's also not pretend that there is much in the way of mechanical diversity between any guns without special gimmicks anyway.

17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

having a "auto semi-auto" or "auto burst" is essentially "innate full auto"

Only for the people who choose to use that option. It changes nothing for anyone else.

17 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

To put it simply a M1 Garand capable of going full auto or fire as fast as you can click
vs a Browning Automatic Rifle will be no difference under such scenario, 
since you can mod fire rate and magazine capacity to essentially turn a M1 Garand "functionally B.A.R."


In the case of Warframe what we will see is modding semi-auto weapons with fire rate mods
since the clear distinction is Semi-Auto have higher base damage than full auto in the game

a Latron Prime modded with Fire rate and recoil reduction would make Soma Prime, even Tiberon Prime a joke.
Since the 15 rounds would dispose of enemies much faster than the 200 or 42 rounds would actually do
given the higher base damage.

So why, then, is the entire PC playerbase not using the Latron Prime with a secondary fire binding on their scroll wheels?

You're acting like this option MUST be implemented in a specific way that potentially strays into your listed pitfalls, when there is no such requirement. The DPS would overtake other weapons? No problem; cap the automatic RoF. The use of an automatic trigger makes the weapons too generic for you? Fine, don't use the full-auto option.

And wouldn't it be better if mods could offer actual customization, such that a player could convert a high-damage low RoF weapon into a lower-damage higher RoF weapon... and vice-versa? I would certainly prefer that to the simplistic fill-in-the-progression-template system we have currently.

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5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Wouldn't simply adding an "Auto Fire" option give DE more direct control over the game balance than endorsing macros or allowing wheel bindings? They could, after all, just cap the applicable rates of fire.

Which part of "semi-auto" you do not understand ? 
Semi auto is essentially self loading weapons that is capable of going to the cyclic rate's limit (bolt cycle interval)
capping the applicable rates of fire is against the principle of semi-auto since technically you should be capable of bump firing a semi-auto 
as fast as a full auto.
 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The whole point of the suggestion is reducing the number of clicks; if balance is a problem... then the balance should be adjusted.

You suggest how we should put the distinction between Tiberon Prime's Semi Auto and Full Auto  ?
Stradavar, Argonak ? And people who have thrown in forma for a full build on those weapons ?

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Oh, so they've already capped it? Then what, pray tell, is the actual problem here? How would simply implementing it as an official option change anything?

Not do they already capped it, weapons like Stradavar, Argonak and Tiberon Prime on semi auto have the fire rate on semi auto rigged just so scrolling the mouse 
wheel to fire will fire much slower than the stats on the fire rate.

It used to be possible to mod Latron Wraith to scroll fire with fire rate of 12

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Workarounds already exist, so there's nothing to break. If it breaks, it's already broken.

Let's also not pretend that there is much in the way of mechanical diversity between any guns without special gimmicks anyway.

I suppose you kind of get my point, the diversity would diminish further more,
 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Only for the people who choose to use that option. It changes nothing for anyone else.

So why, then, is the entire PC playerbase not using the Latron Prime with a secondary fire binding on their scroll wheels?

I suppose I would use that option, in fact it is what I use a lot of time with the Latron Prime, but given a Latron being build with high fire rate and
increased capacity it simply would not hold off against full auto at the moment, since the modding itself very much "weaken" the weapon

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You're acting like this option MUST be implemented in a specific way that potentially strays into your listed pitfalls, when there is no such requirement. The DPS would overtake other weapons? No problem; cap the automatic RoF. The use of an automatic trigger makes the weapons too generic for you? Fine, don't use the full-auto option.

Those are not pitfalls, those are potential exploits that exists within the game currently, a lot which I am using at the moment
my Latron Prime overtook Soma Prime's DPS, this is the potentials of modding, just that it is slightly inconvenient to use Latron Prime at the moment.
which might be the reason I am using Tiberon Prime due to the full auto option.

I might retire Tiberon Prime and re-use Latron Prime should the full auto option become a thing.

Giving full-auto option might be too big of a temptation for me to make a Full Auto Vectis Prime
which will be similar to a Sybaris, but deal way higher damage with the 2 round auto "burst"
and with the sniper counter and scope bonus, things are really getting fun.
 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

And wouldn't it be better if mods could offer actual customization, such that a player could convert a high-damage low RoF weapon into a lower-damage higher RoF weapon... and vice-versa? I would certainly prefer that to the simplistic fill-in-the-progression-template system we have currently.

This two mods, you can essentially turn a Latron Prime about the comfort level to handle as a Braton Prime, 
just don't expect full auto trigger at the moment.

You can throw in hunter munitions to offset for the lack of elemental when this 2 slots is taken up,
and maybe point strike just so when the slash proc hit the number is easily 10 - 20x that on a Soma Prime

latest?cb=20171007155815latest?cb=20171007154802
What I would like to see is full auto conversion fire rate mod to have at the moment.

 

 

 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Which part of "semi-auto" you do not understand ? 
Semi auto is essentially self loading weapons that is capable of going to the cyclic rate's limit (bolt cycle interval)
capping the applicable rates of fire is against the principle of semi-auto since technically you should be capable of bump firing a semi-auto 
as fast as a full auto.

I know full well what "semi-auto" means in terms of real-world designs, but so what? What bearing do the internal design mechanisms of firearms have on their implementation in-game? Have you seen the inner workings of a Braton? How about a Hema?

What you need to realize is that the auto/semi-auto distinction has nothing to do with the actual mechanisms of the weapon (which don't plausibly exist in many cases) and everything to do with how the players interact with them. The clicks are what matters, not the engineering of fictitious firearms.

Even if we assume your argument from realism is appropriate, automatic firing mechanisms are not mutually exclusive with semi-automatic or even burst-fire. The actual constraint preventing an exclusively semi-automatic weapons from utilizing an automatic design is NOT incompatibility with a specific mechanism, but instead the physical capabilities of the user. That's why you won't see any fully automatic Barret M82s firing .50 caliber ammunition, but you WILL see something like the GAU-8 Avenger mounted to aircraft.

In this case, it should be safe to assume that the super-human capabilities of a Warframe could be used to hand-wave any such practical concern for exclusively semi-automatic weaponry.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

You suggest how we should put the distinction between Tiberon Prime's Semi Auto and Full Auto  ?
Stradavar, Argonak ? And people who have thrown in forma for a full build on those weapons ?

I'm saying that there is no need to concern ourselves with a distinction at all. There is no functional difference between Tiberon/Stradavar/Argonak at all when you're just talking about actually firing bullets. The differences lie purely in the audio-visual aesthetics and (in the case of the Argonak) target acquisition gimmick.

If Latron Wraith can suddenly be fired automatically, how does that change the identities of those other weapons? It doesn't change them at all.

"But then the Latron Wraith would have better stats!"

I don't really think that matters, but even allowing the argument on the basis that the Tiberon Prime should be the strongest of the bunch for lore/progression reasons... No big deal. Just cap the automatic RoF of the Latron Wraith so that it can't out-DPS the Tiberon Prime. This isn't complicated.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Not do they already capped it, weapons like Stradavar, Argonak and Tiberon Prime on semi auto have the fire rate on semi auto rigged just so scrolling the mouse 
wheel to fire will fire much slower than the stats on the fire rate.

It used to be possible to mod Latron Wraith to scroll fire with fire rate of 12

Is it still possible to do that with Latron Wraith or not? If not, what is the problem?

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I suppose you kind of get my point, the diversity would diminish further more,

I understand your point completely; I just don't accept it as particularly important. The Braton is the same as the Karak, which is the same as the Stradavar, which is the same as the Soma, which is the same as the Baza, which is the same as every other hitscan weapon in the game. Sure, there are arbitrary statistical difference that control how "viable" each weapon is relative to arbitrary enemy level, but these weapons are all used the same way.

If you feel that firing 5 shots with 1 click vs. 5 clicks makes a huge difference to your weapon's identity... just don't use the option.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I suppose I would use that option, in fact it is what I use a lot of time with the Latron Prime, but given a Latron being build with high fire rate and
increased capacity it simply would not hold off against full auto at the moment, since the modding itself very much "weaken" the weapon

This doesn't answer my question. If the statistical difference is so overwhelmingly significant, why do more players not use it? You don't need to mod the weapon for RoF and magazine capacity to use the scroll while for firing automatically.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Those are not pitfalls, those are potential exploits that exists within the game currently,

So how, then, would adding an official option change anything with regards to these exploits?

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

a lot which I am using at the moment
my Latron Prime overtook Soma Prime's DPS, this is the potentials of modding, just that it is slightly inconvenient to use Latron Prime at the moment.
which might be the reason I am using Tiberon Prime due to the full auto option.

I might retire Tiberon Prime and re-use Latron Prime should the full auto option become a thing.

Why is that a problem, exactly? Use whichever gun you want.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Giving full-auto option might be too big of a temptation for me to make a Full Auto Vectis Prime
which will be similar to a Sybaris, but deal way higher damage with the 2 round auto "burst"
and with the sniper counter and scope bonus, things are really getting fun.

Why are you assuming a full auto Vectis Prime would be similar to Sybaris? Who said anything about changing rate of fire? The only difference is you could hold down LMB instead of needing to click twice. There would be no difference in what happens in-game. The only difference would be user input, which can already be changed.

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

This two mods, you can essentially turn a Latron Prime about the comfort level to handle as a Braton Prime, 
just don't expect full auto trigger at the moment.

You can throw in hunter munitions to offset for the lack of elemental when this 2 slots is taken up,
and maybe point strike just so when the slash proc hit the number is easily 10 - 20x that on a Soma Prime

latest?cb=20171007155815latest?cb=20171007154802

How is this relevant to the discussion at all?

36 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

What I would like to see is full auto conversion fire rate mod to have at the moment.

Which is, IMO, worse than an option because it forces the change automatically. What if I want a high RoF Latron which still uses the semi-auto trigger? Your system forces me to use auto. Why is that necessary?

This suggestion also flies in the face of your own argument that allowing an automatic trigger would disrupt weapon balance and diversity. The end result is the same!

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17 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The whole point of the suggestion is reducing the number of clicks; if balance is a problem... then the balance should be adjusted.

^ This was the whole point of the tread, reduce the number of clicks on burst weapons that are not used for precision shots. Spare our index finger!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Seen multiple treads about the same firing mode once battacor came out, honestly the mode is amazing.

If intention ever would be to revisit some old weapons and maybe add this mode it only should be few selective weapons, and not like guys here crying about making all semi to auto, no.

Rather than wise selection of really painfull weapons such as akbolto , akjagara thats from my experience.

Can imagine it on hema due to slower fire rate, but on burston maybe not due to very high fire rate. Mainly a thoughtfully selecting few weapons that has higher bullet count in magazine and does not have too crazy fire rate & does not have any secondary firing mode allready.

The worst could happen is additional firing mode which could be just "optional" , original still would be there. But i guess battacor hype is dieing out, expecting someone from developers to GO and Revisit old weapons is foolish to say the least, at the very best now and then new released weapon might have this cool mode !

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On 2018-11-17 at 7:51 AM, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, the ability to auto-fire with semi-automatic weapons is something that should have been there from the start.

Exactly.

Save hardware breakdowns from smashing button..

There's a pause between chained shots.. If you want to keep the weapon firing just hold the button.

The only reason Auto-Burst wasnt implemented was for a Old School feel really.. (Good Finger Exercise)

 

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It would save a lot of fingers from future carpal tunnel for sure. I never touched Akbolto P or Arca Siscon for long precisely because of this. Destroying my fingers to get out 7 - 9 rounds per second is pretty stupid and unprofitable.

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Honestly, sometimes I feel that developers want you to use macro, I see no reason to not have an option to shoot automatically, semi automatic weapons will continue to have low fire rate, would be a great improvement in quality of life, hardware and fingers will be saved.

But I already imagine that will not happen, I have already realized that the developers are not very open to suggestions that are not part of the last update, unfortunately.

Would I have to beg for it to happen?

Edited by Peter
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I always thought that heavy hitting semi-auto weapons were meant to have control in mind, which is something you need at range to maintain a consecutive string of headshots or weakpoint-shots. Firing such weapons faster is meant to be a challenge in controlling recoil & maintaining trigger finger, but realistically is only done so for the sake of either damage milking, or escaping a situation that is FUBAR (e.g. being in a CQC scenario that semi-autos are not designed for whatsoever).

It's like the difference between Grakata & Veldt. Neither have any real business, or general right, to tread the other's ground (I know bullet hoses currently suck; Grakata is just an example).

That said, I could endorse this. \/\/\/

On 2018-11-22 at 9:04 PM, Ada_Wong_SG said:

One thing people did suggested before is if the fire rate on a semi-auto weapon reaches 10, it should be innately
turned into full auto, since from the purpose of use aspect a player is clearly trying to make it shoot fast.

shooting a semi auto at 600 rounds / minute is just humanly impossible in prolonged duration
without mouse wheel binding or macro.

I think this scratches both itches, & could have functionality on all platforms, instead of just PC. It maintains semi-autos, burst, & full-autos in their proper niches, especially given that fire-rate builds are inefficient & lack the damage that the current meta usually employs. It might need some tweaking, as 8rps is still quite high for a trigger finger (I believe that's the highest any real-life competitive shooters have achieved).

Seeing what a semi-auto weapon is like full-auto is just a hidden desire of many connoisseurs.

As for burst weapons, the rate at which the button needs to be pressed is not enough to warrant "auto-burst" like Battacor. I watched a couple vids of it since my access effectively doesn't start until the 13th (clan research). It appears to be more of a QoL gimmick. It still can be considered full-auto, just that there's a forced break like "hey check your aim & reset". It's almost like Argonak's laser sight; the player doesn't absolutely need it but it's nice to have.

Edited by (PS4)VagueWisdom
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This sounds like a great QoL change, in my opinion. It saves fingers and mice, without actually increasing DPS or anything like that. Furthermore, players who do not want to use the feature would not have to~

Just for curiosity's sake- If they were to make this mechanic into a mod instead, would you give up a mod slot on semi-auto weapons to make them fire automatically?
I'd still stick to automatic weapons in that case. 😛

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