Revenant is the Worst Frame in the Game

[LAD.Y]

I... don't think this is accurate at all.I find his kit fairly synergystic. I mean Mesmer Skin's...a bit lack luster, but the utiltiy is nice, but I don't personally have any problems running him in late game content to great effect. Is it very original? Maybe not, but I don't find him bad at all.

Yes his 1 doesn't do a lot of damage, but it disrupts the hoard, gives him easy sustain in conjunction with his three, and will pretty much keep itself up since enemies can spread it. They don't have to do damage. They're just meat shields that blow up and keep you going.

Pillars... Eh okay yeah they're pretty useless unless you kill a bunch of mind controlled in a doorway or something, but yeah i never particularly liked or even saw an impact of that part of his ability.

Mesmer Skin.... Obviously you're talking about base stats, which okay sure, but also who DOESN'T mod a frame? So.... my build has 13 charges and 6 seconds of stun. Again just more control and utility. It's fine. it's whatever. it has a use and all.

Reave. Heals him. Moves him. and most importantly lets him move safely with DM. More survivability. More sustain.

Danse Macabre. The original idea's cool sure. But, I wouldn't say that was any more original than the 'Meme Spin' we got. Also ....what are  you doing? Just pressing 4 and staying in Danse? Other comments mention how you can't hit enemies above you etc and can't use weapons and have to cancel it to reposition and yeah that's true, but enemies also tend to die in like 2 seconds with rev and the damage off Danse is frankly dumb. So I don't see the issue? In comparison to Ember yeah she can use weapons and jump freely, but her damage is WAY lower and won't proc other status effects as well. They're just different styles of channeling whichis fine. Also my experience with Ember is that she drains a whole lot faster with her four than my Rev does so again *shrugs*. Perhaps I just don't understand her play as well as Rev's or I haven't built her up as much but.

Edited November 30, 2018 by LAD.Y

[Howl4Me]

6 hours ago, TakaTheBrute said:

im not sure how you think this. how much power strength do you have on your revenant? only 6 charges for his 2? i have 15! i never die! did you know that his 2 prevents most types of damage? i think he is a FANTASTIC frame. the only problem is that his noble stance is... strange.

I was stating base stats, unaffected by build. 15 is still a tiny amount of charges. 

[Howl4Me]

1 hour ago, LAD.Y said:

I... don't think this is accurate at all.I find his kit fairly synergystic. I mean Mesmer Skin's...a bit lack luster, but the utiltiy is nice, but I don't personally have any problems running him in late game content to great effect. Is it very original? Maybe not, but I don't find him bad at all.

Yes his 1 doesn't do a lot of damage, but it disrupts the hoard, gives him easy sustain in conjunction with his three, and will pretty much keep itself up since enemies can spread it. They don't have to do damage. They're just meat shields that blow up and keep you going.

Pillars... Eh okay yeah they're pretty useless unless you kill a bunch of mind controlled in a doorway or something, but yeah i never particularly liked or even saw an impact of that part of his ability.

Mesmer Skin.... Obviously you're talking about base stats, which okay sure, but also who DOESN'T mod a frame? So.... my build has 13 charges and 6 seconds of stun. Again just more control and utility. It's fine. it's whatever. it has a use and all.

Reave. Heals him. Moves him. and most importantly lets him move safely with DM. More survivability. More sustain.

Danse Macabre. The original idea's cool sure. But, I wouldn't say that was any more original than the 'Meme Spin' we got. Also ....what are  you doing? Just pressing 4 and staying in Danse? Other comments mention how you can't hit enemies above you etc and can't use weapons and have to cancel it to reposition and yeah that's true, but enemies also tend to die in like 2 seconds with rev and the damage off Danse is frankly dumb. So I don't see the issue? In comparison to Ember yeah she can use weapons and jump freely, but her damage is WAY lower and won't proc other status effects as well. They're just different styles of channeling whichis fine. Also my experience with Ember is that she drains a whole lot faster with her four than my Rev does so again *shrugs*. Perhaps I just don't understand her play as well as Rev's or I haven't built her up as much but.

For his 1: You can also disrupt a hoard by killing enemies. Shrug. It barely disrupts, too; 7 enemies is not that many in a hoard gamemode, unless you're constantly killing the thralls but ONLY just enough to keep them rolling, which is only going to happen in solo.

13 charges is still not very much.

Reave is pointless. You can get pretty much as much healing with things like Magus Elevate or Life Strike, etc for free or near free. Things I mentioned in the post. The heal you get is not at all worth the cost.

As for his 4, my point is that if you want the kind of damage he can deal, you bring Mesa instead. If you want the trash clearing, you bring Equinox or someone else. I'll cede that Ember is probably worse than Revenant at this point, but Revenant is still really bad. Nothing you said really justifies any of his abilities. 

[Howl4Me]

On 2018-11-26 at 11:38 AM, IceColdHawk said:

>be immortal

>stun enemies that hit you and be able to draw aggro away

>have scaling damage and room clear that can kill anything not health gated

>still be the worst in game

>

Sucks to be Revenant i guess. Meanwhile Ember is giggling in the corner.

Immortality is not that impressive when other frames already do that (Valkyr, Rhino...)

Stun enemies that hit you is okay, sure, I guess. Not great, though. Other frames can stun enemies without relying on them shooting you first, after all. 

And for his 3... yeah, I'm sure you'll get lots of use out of that, when the energy cost of the combo in question is far out of proportion to its usefulness in anything below 150+ level play. For the rest of us who aren't exclusively playing Mot all the time, that ability is mostly pointless. Unless you mean his 4, in which case, just use Mesa's regulators, they're better in almost every way except omnidirectionality. 

Ember is worse, yeah. I'll cede that. Revenant's the second worst, sorry for my indiscretion. :)

Edited November 30, 2018 by Glyphicality

[The_Tiddler]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Enthrall is a shoddy CC ability and trying to upsell Reave like that is Hilarious.

Except it's not shoddy. It works very well. I gave examples on how it can be used - simply saying "no" is not a refutation.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, The_Tiddler said:

Except it's not shoddy. It works very well. I gave examples on how it can be used - simply saying "no" is not a refutation.

You’re relying on a target to draw enemy fire that can and will be killed by team mates and/or yourself. I’d consider that shoddy CC.

[The_Tiddler]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re relying on a target to draw enemy fire that can and will be killed by team mates and/or yourself. I’d consider that shoddy CC.

This can be fixed if DE made it so thralls could not be killed by teammates. However, I don't see the use in that as:

In lower levels where allies can instantly evapourate your thralls, that means they can also just evapourate any other enemy. This can be said about just about any CC ability: Excalibur's blind, Ember's Accelerant, Rhino's Stomp, all of it. It's far more efficient to kill than control until enemies CANNOT be 1-shot.

But even then, you'd be surprised how that point doesn't stand up; I was playing with another Revenant on a star chart alert who's thralls spread like wildfire. Even if a freak happening, it's still enough to break the absolute.

 

Ignoring even the 'aggro drawing' though, it's an ability that lets you take stronger enemies out of the fight instantly.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

26 minutes ago, The_Tiddler said:

 

 

Ignoring even the 'aggro drawing' though, it's an ability that lets you take stronger enemies out of the fight instantly.

And for an ability that has 2 different functions as well as having every synergy tied to it, it’s unacceptable that that’s its only practical use, that’s now going to be completely outshined by Nyx’s Mind control rework.

Edited November 30, 2018 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[The_Tiddler]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And for an ability that has 2 different functions as well as having every synergy tied to it, it’s unacceptable that that’s its only practical use, that’s now going to be completely outshined by Nyx’s Mind control rework.

Lol.

Ignoring points you can't argue, doesn't win you the argument. Best we stop here before the thread just becomes our bickering.

58 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

Immortality is not that impressive when other frames already do that (Valkyr, Rhino...)

Stun enemies that hit you is okay, sure, I guess. Not great, though. Other frames can stun enemies without relying on them shooting you first, after all. 

And for his 3... yeah, I'm sure you'll get lots of use out of that, when the energy cost of the combo in question is far out of proportion to its usefulness in anything below 150+ level play. For the rest of us who aren't exclusively playing Mot all the time, that ability is mostly pointless. Unless you mean his 4, in which case, just use Mesa's regulators, they're better in almost every way except omnidirectionality. 

Ember is worse, yeah. I'll cede that. Revenant's the second worst, sorry for my indiscretion. 🙂

Many frames have abilities that are redundant in earlygame - because the Star Chart is easy as anything. But, having tested a proper endgame Mesa build against Revenant's 4... Revenant may fall in range, but his damage is surprisingly superior. I'm not saying it's better, mind you -- their functions are too different to compare aside from "they do the damage."

While immortality is not impressive on its own, the fact Revenant's immortallity is so extreme he can do what would otherwise require an invisible frame is. It's also a combination of his immortality, and ability to kill anything. And it doesn't matter all too much if enemies have to shoot him to be stunned, seeing as them shooting him doesn't actually hurt him. And you still have on-demand CC with his 1.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, The_Tiddler said:

Ignoring points you can't argue, doesn't win you the argument.

[LAD.Y]

1 hour ago, Glyphicality said:

For his 1: You can also disrupt a hoard by killing enemies. Shrug. It barely disrupts, too; 7 enemies is not that many in a hoard gamemode, unless you're constantly killing the thralls but ONLY just enough to keep them rolling, which is only going to happen in solo.

13 charges is still not very much.

Reave is pointless. You can get pretty much as much healing with things like Magus Elevate or Life Strike, etc for free or near free. Things I mentioned in the post. The heal you get is not at all worth the cost.

As for his 4, my point is that if you want the kind of damage he can deal, you bring Mesa instead. If you want the trash clearing, you bring Equinox or someone else. I'll cede that Ember is probably worse than Revenant at this point, but Revenant is still really bad. Nothing you said really justifies any of his abilities. 

The thing about his 1 is that even while his thralls die, as long as they're not all dead, they'll keep making MORE thralls. And I mean... yeah? Sure. but you can literally say 'just disrupt by killing' for literally any frame sooo, i feel like that defense isn't very good either lol. You can disagree with me on this but like, your point's just as shaky as you perceive mine is.

Again. Okay. As opposed to what? You know you can recast whenever you want, you also get more from reaving specific targets. I don't ever run out of stacks. The number may not be 'high' but it's more or less infinite.

Again, okay, there's other ways to do the same thing, but that doesn't make this 'pointless'. It's free mobility that you take no damage in, heal and can pick up overshield as well without using another mod slot, 90% shield/HP drain for just dashing through something isn't pointless to me. Again you can disagree, but it also doesn't cost that much. It's 28 on my build which is barely more than a base 1st ability. Also again, it allows you to move where you want with DM.

Okay. I'm...not even gonna answer this one. Really what I'm seeing is that you just don't like Revenant. Which like okay you made this post, so that's pretty obvious, but rephrase, you don't really WANT to like Rev either. There's nothing wrong with how he plays, and all your justifcations of 'something else can do the same thing in a different way' or what you'd think is 'more efficient' or 'better' is ...meh. So Mesa has more distance? whatever. She's a different play style, that doesn't make her worse or better than Revenant is in his current state. Mesa is loads squishier, and for plenty of players Rev would prove to be a lot safer for them. 

[The_Tiddler]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

4 minutes ago, The_Tiddler said:

Ignoring points you can't argue, doesn't win you the argument.

I never did. You said his CC was shoddy because allies could kill your thralls, I gave an example on how I'd seen thralls that lived long, happy lives despite allies shooting explosives all around them. As well as all CC being redundant until a certain point. You didn't even gloss over this - instead simply ignored it.

[LAD.Y]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And for an ability that has 2 different functions as well as having every synergy tied to it, it’s unacceptable that that’s its only practical use, that’s now going to be completely outshined by Nyx’s Mind control rework.

i disagree, Nyx's Mind control is just going to be a different use. I always liked Revs more because it doesn't revolve on Rev as heavily and it can be recast more times. Mind control, is still more limited and fulfills a different purpose (if I understood the notes correctly, she's gonna more or less make mind controlled targets into walking turrets by shooting them?) That's an entirely different niche than what Rev is doing with his 1st ability

[Howl4Me]

6 minutes ago, LAD.Y said:

Okay. I'm...not even gonna answer this one. Really what I'm seeing is that you just don't like Revenant. Which like okay you made this post, so that's pretty obvious, but rephrase, you don't really WANT to like Rev either. There's nothing wrong with how he plays, and all your justifcations of 'something else can do the same thing in a different way' or what you'd think is 'more efficient' or 'better' is ...meh.

The idea that I don't want to like Revenant is silly. Khora, a frame often considered subpar, is one of my absolute favorites, and I love other frames often overlooked like Zephyr and Atlas. Revenant has uses. You can play him and you'll be fine. The reason I'm so vehement in not liking him is because I hate the way DE went about his design. They just stuffed his kit full of meaningless synergies, barely thought about how they could make his abilities fresh, barely cared about his balancing, made his 4 an uninteractive kill-all button, and then just dropped him like a rock. I want Revenant to be redesigned and made stronger and better, which is why I made this post. 

I like Garuda, even when she does things other frames can do, because she presents a unique mixture of abilities with fun animations and their own caveats. Revenant really doesn't. Everything he does genuinely feels like a retread of another frame's ability or plain, utilitarian stuff, and I think it's really sad, because we could have had something much more interesting than Revenant is. I don't even care about power that much, but I made those arguments for the people who do; the main reason I rag on his 4 so much is not JUST because it doesn't deal as much damage as Peacemakers can, but because it doesn't deal as much damage as Peacemakers can while also being an unoriginal, uninteractive ability. If it brought something new to the table, even if it wasn't as strong, I would be much more inclined to like it.

I don't hate Revenant. I hate how little thought, effort and care went into making him. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Glyphicality

[Guest]

Revenant is not a good frame, that's as much as can be said. But to say he is the worst frame is a bit of a misnomer. I don't bother with the synergies in his abilities at all - I simply use the powers for what they are worth.

1. Enthrall is just to create a target to draw threat away from the self. Considering the fact it works on things like Ancients, Bursas and Noxes, you can use this as a distraction and to prevent incoming fire from being aimed at you. Think of it as a free, more reliable and longer lasting rad proc. Is it the best? No, but it works.

2. Mesmer Skin is pretty much the best tanking ability in game. Not only can it be recast, each layer tanks infinite damage once. Against low level, of course it has little value, but against instances of extreme damage this will save your life.

3. Reave is not good. That's as much can be said.

4. Danse is a lame and uninspired power, but it does what it ... does. It's good at what it was meant to do, which is clear trash mobs. You have a gun for hard targets.

[The_Tiddler]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

Revenant is not a good frame, that's as much as can be said. But to say he is the worst frame is a bit of a misnomer. I don't bother with the synergies in his abilities at all - I simply use the powers for what they are worth.

1. Enthrall is just to create a target to draw threat away from the self. Considering the fact it works on things like Ancients, Bursas and Noxes, you can use this as a distraction and to prevent incoming fire from being aimed at you. Think of it as a free, more reliable and longer lasting rad proc. Is it the best? No, but it works.

2. Mesmer Skin is pretty much the best tanking ability in game. Not only can it be recast, each layer tanks infinite damage once. Against low level, of course it has little value, but against instances of extreme damage this will save your life.

3. Reave is not good. That's as much can be said.

4. Danse is a lame and uninspired power, but it does what it ... does. It's good at what it was meant to do, which is clear trash mobs. You have a gun for hard targets.

1. Enthrall can also be used to disable stronger units altogether and set them up for a combo with his 3

2. Ye

3. It's mobility, and can be used on thralls to instantly kill them. One can argue it's a bit redundant at lower levels, but it's great at higher.

4. I can't argue if some people find it boring. Personally, I find it fun enough to use in short bursts if there's a big crowd. To each their own, though!

Revenant is extremely powerful assuming you DON'T just ignore his synergies. After actually playing him, fiddling with builds and how to play him, I'd dare say he's one of the strongest despite his reputation. Part of me is relieved by his reputation since it means he's unlikely for a nerf, but at the same time I worry that DE may actually change him and end up ruining him.

[LAD.Y]

8 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

The idea that I don't want to like Revenant is silly. Khora, a frame often considered subpar, is one of my absolute favorites, and I love other frames often overlooked like Zephyr and Atlas. Revenant has uses. You can play him and you'll be fine. The reason I'm so vehement in not liking him is because I hate the way DE went about his design. They just stuffed his kit full of meaningless synergies, barely thought about how they could make his abilities fresh, barely cared about his balancing, made his 4 an uninteractive kill-all button, and then just dropped him like a rock. I want Revenant to be redesigned and made stronger and better, which is why I made this post. 

I like Garuda, even when she does things other frames can do, because she presents a unique mixture of abilities with fun animations and their own caveats. Revenant really doesn't. Everything he does genuinely feels like a retread of another frame's ability or plain, utilitarian stuff, and I think it's really sad, because we could have had something much more interesting than Revenant is. I don't even care about power that much, but I made those arguments for the people who do; the main reason I rag on his 4 so much is not JUST because it doesn't deal as much damage as Peacemakers can, but because it doesn't deal as much damage as Peacemakers can while also being an unoriginal, uninteractive ability. If it brought something new to the table, even if it wasn't as strong, I would be much more inclined to like it.

I don't hate Revenant. I hate how little thought, effort and care went into making him. 

That's just how it read honestly. I get where you're coming from but. It read more like anyone who didn't agree with you that Rev was a complete hodge podge of awful was just wrong. Because the fact he's got a lot of copy pasted abilities isn't exactly... new. Would I be opposed to a rework of some sort down the line? No. But I just don't see him as uninspired and boring as you do. I have more issue with his design itself looking like a Limbo/Nekros love child than any of his abilities. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by LAD.Y

[LAD.Y]

1 minute ago, The_Tiddler said:

1. Enthrall can also be used to disable stronger units altogether and set them up for a combo with his 3

2. Ye

3. It's mobility, and can be used on thralls to instantly kill them. One can argue it's a bit redundant at lower levels, but it's great at higher.

4. I can't argue if some people find it boring. Personally, I find it fun enough to use in short bursts if there's a big crowd. To each their own, though!

Revenant is extremely powerful assuming you DON'T just ignore his synergies. After actually playing him, fiddling with builds and how to play him, I'd dare say he's one of the strongest despite his reputation. Part of me is relieved by his reputation since it means he's unlikely for a nerf, but at the same time I worry that DE may actually change him and end up ruining him.

i agree my friends hate how strong he is. XD they keep waiting to see a nerf

[TakaTheBrute]

1 hour ago, Glyphicality said:

I was stating base stats, unaffected by build. 15 is still a tiny amount of charges. 

Tiny compared to what? And if youre going to talk base stats, that makes A LOT of frames weak. Its bold of you to make a sweeping statement that revenant is the worse frame in the game when you dont understand how he is supposed to be played. Evidence is that you said the synergies are poorly thought out when in fact, they work quite well. Since youre bringing up base revenant lets talk about a popular frame. Rhino. The frame that is played worse than most limbos. Rhino is often called a tank when in fact, he is a support with survivability. NEKROS is a better tank then him. But about his abilitys. His 1 is a weak movement/path stun for enemys. His 2 is very dangerous to use because you can get shot down the second it gets worn down. His 3 is a damage increase that helps the entire team, but is NEVER used in pub matches (for every 100 rhinos ive played in a match with, even in sortie or boss dps missions, only 2 use it) and his 4 is a AOE stun. Revenants 1 takes over an enemy, and that lets it spread to more. His 2 makes his 1 cost nothing and basically makes his invulnerable. His 3 recharges his 2, does PERCENTAGE based damage, and is a good movement ability. His 4 is just something to cheese some bosses and enemies with, but otherwise becomes more of a hazzard then a useful ability. Just because you dont know how to use a frame, does not make said frame bad. Zephyr is worse than him with the criteria you used. Lets not even TALK about vauban.

[Teridax68]

There are a lot of arguments that seem to have popped up in this thread, and I think that comes in part from the ambiguous title: "worst frame in the game" can mean a lot of things, and I don't think all of them apply to Revenant: is Revenant the weakest frame in the game? Absolutely not, in fact I'd go as far as to say that he's quite strong right now. Is Revenant one of the worst-designed frames in the game? That I'd be much more inclined to agree with, because his kit feels largely bland and disjointed, and has a serious identity problem in both gameplay and theme. As has already been mentioned in the thread, Revenant started out as a vampire frame, and halfway through the development process turned into an Eidolon frame, while still keeping a set of abilities that now ceased to make any sense on him. Just like Khora, Sanctuary Onslaught and Arbitrations, Revenant is the unfortunate byproduct of a development pipeline that tunnel-visioned way too hard into Fortuna, and what could've been a solid concept resulted in a frame with thoroughly mediocre gameplay, and a similarly bare-bones "quest", if one can even call it that.

So where do we go from here? For better or worse, Revenant being released to the live game means some players have gotten attached to his kit, or at least some parts of it. How then does one improve Revenant's design without antagonizing his fans? Personally, I feel the solution should be to change the flavor of some of his abilities, while keeping their core gameplay intact: if Revenant could produce Vomvalysts from his enemies, instead of mind-controlling them, he'd immediately start to fit much better into his Eidolon theme, even though he'd still be a minion-mancer. Moreover, if those Vomvalysts had their own health, damage, etc., Enthrall or whichever replacement wouldn't need to load itself with a whole bunch of different effects to feel good to use, particularly since those bonuses still don't individually feel strong or useful in most cases.

From there, there could be a lot of room for development: I agree that Revenant's passive is a throwaway effect with no real flavor or gameplay value, and thankfully it doesn't seem like players have gotten particularly attached to it, so I'd say it could be an opportunity to give him something more interesting or thematic, like a spectral form on bleedout capable of self-revival (which would, once again, fit the Eidolon theme, thanks to Vomvalysts turning into specters after taking enough damage). If Reave could be charged up and could also command Vomvalysts to do the same thing for more damage or other effects, the ability would similarly become more thematic and interesting, as Vomvalysts in spectral form also have a dash with a charge-up. As for Mesmer Skin, I think the ability needs to be reworked completely, because the core effect erases all interaction and is only balanced by how tedious it is to constantly reapply the immunity, though that's a suggestion that is likely to generate a lot more opposition.

[JohnLemon123]

I'd hardly call him the worst, but he's by no means perfect or well-designed.

the thing that irks me most about him is how for each good part of his abilities, there's some baffling ''synergies'' that makes no sense. it's almost as if every part of his kit was designed in a vacuum, without consideration for the fact that they'd all be put onto one single warframe. he just keeps contradicting himself :

The warframe focused on building an army of sacrificial pawns also happens to have a high damage, massive range aoe that not only barely interacts with his 1, but actively discourages you from using it.

Hey, did you know that revenant has the highest amount of base shields in the game, and the second highest overall (losing only to harrow) shield maximum ? Maybe you did, but guess what ? It doesn't matter, because unlike harrow, he has no way of using them actively. And thanks to mesmer skin giving you invincibility, shields are even more pointless on him than on anyone else.

Man, getting 50 overshields sure seems like a good deal, on this warframe that's either invincible or dead !

Everyone defending reave mentions it's infinite scaling, but here's the thing : i'm pretty sure that it wasn't meant to be used that way. Why would the warframe with a charge-based iron skin need to ''dash away'' ? Or need to heal at all, for that matter ? It makes about as much sense as if rhino had a random self-heal thrown into his kit : it's pointless, thematically inappropriate, and feels like a waste of a mod slot.

Revenant takes the ''i hate my squad'' mentality of harrow and nidus, and brings it up to eleven. That your allies can make it harder for you to ''do your thing'' is fine, that's always gonna happen to some extent. But his first ability, his main selling point, is completely neutered the moment you play with someone else.

Also, enthrall is bad and unoriginal, and has been since his first showcase. It tries to sound complex and technical, but it's really just mind control with some fancy gimmicks. it sclaes terribly too.

Finally, his 4. They nerfed it as a kneejerk reaction to people receiving revenant as nothing more than another ''press 4 to win'' frame. However (in traditional DE fashion), the change failed to achieve it's intended purpose, and obliterated the ability's performance outside of the one place where it was ''too good'' (remember ember and chroma ?). Going from 12.5 to 20 is already a pretty big hit, but more than anything, the ''focused'' variant got screwed over. The one, singular part of the ability that required player input had it's cost changed from 25 to 40. 40 !

Sadly, I'm pretty sure that no more changes are coming. enthrall will remain poor and unoriginal, and reave will stay situational at best. Revenant will survive solely on mesmer skin and danse macabre, and everyone will promptly forget that he even existed.

[Howl4Me]

4 hours ago, TakaTheBrute said:

Tiny compared to what? And if youre going to talk base stats, that makes A LOT of frames weak. Its bold of you to make a sweeping statement that revenant is the worse frame in the game when you dont understand how he is supposed to be played. Evidence is that you said the synergies are poorly thought out when in fact, they work quite well. Since youre bringing up base revenant lets talk about a popular frame. Rhino. The frame that is played worse than most limbos. Rhino is often called a tank when in fact, he is a support with survivability. NEKROS is a better tank then him. But about his abilitys. His 1 is a weak movement/path stun for enemys. His 2 is very dangerous to use because you can get shot down the second it gets worn down. His 3 is a damage increase that helps the entire team, but is NEVER used in pub matches (for every 100 rhinos ive played in a match with, even in sortie or boss dps missions, only 2 use it) and his 4 is a AOE stun. Revenants 1 takes over an enemy, and that lets it spread to more. His 2 makes his 1 cost nothing and basically makes his invulnerable. His 3 recharges his 2, does PERCENTAGE based damage, and is a good movement ability. His 4 is just something to cheese some bosses and enemies with, but otherwise becomes more of a hazzard then a useful ability. Just because you dont know how to use a frame, does not make said frame bad. Zephyr is worse than him with the criteria you used. Lets not even TALK about vauban.

Except neither is true, because Zephyr is fun and unique and Vauban has a niche, because he has the most powerful CC in the game.

I was pointing out base stats in my post because I wanted to give numbers that people could INFER what they would be like with proper strength. 15 attacks is a tiny amount compared to that which you would normally sustain throughout the lifespan of an ability like Shatter Shield or Splinter Storm or any of the other tanking abilities. His 3's percentage damage is 8%, which means it will always be S#&$ no matter what level of enemy, unless you hit a thrall with it, and thralls are already harmless to you anyway so you'd be better off shooting them.

I understand exactly how Revenant is supposed to be played. Of the synergies that Revenant has, almost none of them really do anything except for a scant few which offer some benefit; he has a lot of utterly pointless synergies, like the overshield pickups or the ability to grant charges of mesmer skin to allies. Sorry, a charge. One charge.

Just because you think I am wrong does not mean I do not know how the frame is supposed to be played. The problem is that in almost all cases except for extremely high level play you would be better off playing any other frame, and his abilities are poorly designed and uninteresting even if you didn't care about his power level.

Stop condescending to me. 

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

19 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

Except neither is true, because Zephyr is fun and unique and Vauban has a niche, because he has the most powerful CC in the game.

Fun is subjective, so that's not really a sound argument for Zephyr. As for Vauban having the best CC in the game? Nova, Rhino, and Saryn all prove otherwise.

As for Revenant? Anyone who disses Enthrall hasn't played late game. The adds make for handy (and tanky) distractions, drawing enemy fire away from Rev and his teammates. Keep in mind, Nekros's 4th achieves EXACTLY what Rev's 1st does, so if you're gonna gripe about Rev's 1st...

...You might want to play a dirge in mourning for Nekros's 4th.

Reave's only practical use is in boosting Danse Macabre's mobility and getting charges back for Mesmer Skin; without its synergies, Reave is absolute garbage.

Danse Macabre & Mesmer Skin are OP AF. Damage negation regardless of damage received is easily the best tanking ability in the game; thanks to enemy damage scaling, Rev can take more hits in endgame than any other Warframe, save for Hysteria Valkyr & AFK Limbo. Danse Macabre not only offers "smart" damage and status in an AoE, it also scales with enemy damage, meaning that Danse Macabre's TTK will NEVER peter out late game, as opposed to every other Warframe's damage abilities.

Mechanically, Revenant is one of the strongest and toughest Warframes in the game. But as for the subject of fun? Well, as stated before...

Fun is subjective. I personally don't enjoy Revenant's playstyle, despite his strengths. But I know a certain geriatric gamer who adores the playstyle for its versatility and practicality. Because I don't enjoy playing Rev, I choose to play other Warframes; I have 35 other options after all. But I'm not about to ruin Rev for the people that do enjoy his kit; he's not Saryn or Limbo; he ain't killing MY fun when someone else plays him.

[Ventura_Highway]

On 2018-11-18 at 7:58 PM, Glyphicality said:

Ehh, I really like Khora, actually. She does her job reasonably well and she doesn't suffer from the same 'this is just the same ability another frame does' thing. All of her abilities were unique, had good synergies, and were perfectly good at what they did. I don't think she's the best frame or anything, but she's actually my personal favorite and I think she holds up fairly well, nothing at all like Revenant who... just got screwed, honestly, because all of his abilities were not only bad but also copies of everyone else's abilities. 😕

I think the big thing is that a frame can get away with either having a lot of similar abilities to other frames, or being really bad, but not both. A frame that copies others but is still good isn't great, but at least people will use them because they're good. A frame that is unique but not very strong will at least have some ardent supporters who enjoy the little stuff they bring to the table. Revenant gets neither. 

Compounding this is, I have to point out, that they had a kit for her totally planned around on Damage 3.0 they had to scrap before making Khora's current kit. Quick moves, DE.

[Threa]

After the initial release and subsequent iterations of Khora, Revenant’s nerfed state and Garuda’s clunkyness which persists despite the recent patch’s insufficent changes, I have lost faith in DE’s current Warframe design philosophy. Third time Ive been burned, and consecutively too.  

There are two things probably happening: either DE has lost the ability/inspiration to create powerful Warframes with useful and impactful abilities or they just don’t care to devote enough manpower toward their designs and instead place those resources on the big content updates like Fortuna. 

Our roster of Warframes are not aging well and while others say they’re fine, I will continue to hold DE to higher standards and expectations.