What Conclave can learn from Crucible (Destiny)

[Cephalycion]

Just a list of similarities and differences I want to point out.

Similarities:

Both Conclave and Crucible are PvP gamemodes contained within a co-op, PvE looter game.

The similarities pretty much end here.

Differences:

Conclave is recognised as a dead gamemode by most of the community, whereas Crucible is highly popular and most importantly, functions as one of the endgame activities that veterans participate in.

Conclave changes many things from the PvE gamemode such as removing normal mods and changing warframe abilities. Crucible does not attempt to make PvP separate from PvE aside from light level balancing for obvious reasons.

Rewards from Conclave hardly affect PvE and do not provide any progression outside of cosmetics and menial resources. Crucible gives players legendary weapons that can be used in both PvE and PvP.

Conclave has a very high skill ceiling and not enough playerbase to encourage a proper ranking system. Crucible has many ways to lower the skill ceiling and make sure new players can still stand a chance against highly skilled players, such as purposely crippling gun accuracy when airborne. The developers openly stated that they did not want veterans to abuse the movement system to gain an advantage.

More to come.

[(PSN)robi191291]

The best reward for PvP always will be PvE rewards. 

I have 0 interest in cosmetics. 

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by (PS4)robi191291

[Dabnician]

Crucible -- is hosted on dedicated servers hosted by bungie.

Conclave -- is some times hosted on dedicated servers hosted by players.

The fact that they screw with the abilities to be different in conclave then in the game itself is a problem. They could very easily fix conclave to be more fun or at least some what balanced, they could just make your warframe level 1, abilities to rank 1 and all weapons to rank 1. Disable all mods on all equipment/warframes. Then conclave would become a challenge about the base warframe everyone mods in pve.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Unfortunately, PVE balance for PVP just doesn't work in Warframe.

In Destiny (from what I can tell), weapon damage is tuned such that it works well for either enemies or players. In Warframe, something that works well for enemies will 1-shot players.

Players don't have enough health for core PVE factors like crit/status to play the same role. CC tends to be rather OP.

PVP used to have the PVE balance, and it was just OHKO-spam chaos.

[Cephalycion]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Unfortunately, PVE balance for PVP just doesn't work in Warframe.

In Destiny (from what I can tell), weapon damage is tuned such that it works well for either enemies or players. In Warframe, something that works well for enemies will 1-shot players.

Players don't have enough health for core PVE factors like crit/status to play the same role. CC tends to be rather OP.

PVP used to have the PVE balance, and it was just OHKO-spam chaos.

Agreed. I was only using mods as an example to prove the point.

[(NSW)Kaffeebohnson]

I'd honestly be up for a Conclave rework. Never really got into it, but I think a solid PVP option would be healthy for the game.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Cephalycion said:

Agreed. I was only using mods as an example to prove the point.

I think it might be better to develop non-Tenno PVP (e.g., Grineer vs. Corpus deathmatch/CTF/what have you) with Invasion-type rewards at stake).

Failing that, standard-loadout "classes" and your mentioned poor accuracy mid-air could help even the playing field a bit.

[Mach25]

30 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think it might be better to develop non-Tenno PVP (e.g., Grineer vs. Corpus deathmatch/CTF/what have you) with Invasion-type rewards at stake).

"50 on Red! I bet 50 on Red! Prodman has 3:1 odds on Hek!"

Edited December 12, 2018 by Mach25

[Tyreaus]

7 hours ago, Dabnician said:

Crucible -- is hosted on dedicated servers hosted by bungie.

Conclave -- is some times hosted on dedicated servers hosted by players.

The fact that they screw with the abilities to be different in conclave then in the game itself is a problem. They could very easily fix conclave to be more fun or at least some what balanced, they could just make your warframe level 1, abilities to rank 1 and all weapons to rank 1. Disable all mods on all equipment/warframes. Then conclave would become a challenge about the base warframe everyone mods in pve.

Some abilities do need to be tweaked a bit, though. If we had abilities like we do in PvE, an Equinox could sleep a target at a pretty healthy range and, given the TTK of most weapons and the client-side damage registration with most common latency issues, all but guarantee a kill in the process. Ivara's noise arrow also isn't terribly useful or has any PvP effects.

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Unfortunately, PVE balance for PVP just doesn't work in Warframe.

In Destiny (from what I can tell), weapon damage is tuned such that it works well for either enemies or players. In Warframe, something that works well for enemies will 1-shot players.

Players don't have enough health for core PVE factors like crit/status to play the same role. CC tends to be rather OP.

PVP used to have the PVE balance, and it was just OHKO-spam chaos.

There are some PvE changes that could help PvP lean in that balance direction. DPS caps on weapons (Against players only; damage output adjusted based on modded stats, with crits at a higher cap) can help prevent the OHKO insanity and make Rad procs a little more tolerable in PvE. Shields could be reworked in some way as proc protection to make Corpus more interesting and prevent overabundance of CC, plus faster recovery times (or more dynamic recovery systems, like a QTE or something) that I'm sure everyone who's been hooked by a Scorpion would love. Etc. etc.

_{If one really wanted to go in that direction, at least.}

Edited December 12, 2018 by Tyreaus

[Cephalycion]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think it might be better to develop non-Tenno PVP (e.g., Grineer vs. Corpus deathmatch/CTF/what have you) with Invasion-type rewards at stake).

Failing that, standard-loadout "classes" and your mentioned poor accuracy mid-air could help even the playing field a bit.

That was one of the very popular ideas (and still is) for a conclave rework. I support it and even made a few comments about it a few weeks back I think.

However, there are some Conclavers which also value to high-adrenaline gameplay of the current Conclave. While I agree that mashing your keyboard and being able to dodge almost anything that is thrown at you is fun, this kind of tactics is very "elite" and closed off to a small section of the playerbase who knows how to maximise the potential of the parkour system. Which means you frequently have games where 1 veteran will utterly dominate everyone else, and maybe 1 or 2 close behind him.

Worst case scenario is where that 1 veteran is the only one getting kills and everyone else is just spawning and dying.

Knowing how to exploit the movement system makes a world of difference in the current Conclave and it can make gameplay very frustrating for anyone who doesn't.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

20 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

Conclave changes many things from the PvE gamemode such as removing normal mods and changing warframe abilities. Crucible does not attempt to make PvP separate from PvE aside from light level balancing for obvious reasons.

Here's a reference that killed PvP in WoW: removing PvP gear and having PvE gear doing PvP ... with the RNG mess to acquire gear.

Token system for PvP gear is the "secret sauce" in making PvP a GOAL to do everyday to collect the daily tokens, which people save up for that gear they want to buy.

Another PvP sinker: don't allow dual boxing in instances. The battlegrounds became full of multi-boxers with 30 toons one-shotting players. No one wants to play with bot armies like that (other than if you have a good team, farming them!).

As for PvP in Warframe I like the old PvP/solar rail protection/takeover wars. Sometimes it was CRAZY in how many showed up, and the larger clans/alliances churned out 5 star bot armies to protect their rails. MY GOD! Learned how to use the Sonicor to blast them into space, too!

FUN/FUN/FUN!!!

[RealHeftyTrout]

Thing is, Destiny was made with both PvE and PVP in mind.

Warframe was developed with solely PvE in mind and PvP was just tagged in there later on.

Destiny's gameplay and balancing work greatly in a PvP environment whilst WarFrame's clearly doesn't due to abilities and movement. 

Crucible gives players an incentive to play since you're always given a decent/good reward just for playing and participating (whether it's a weapon or piece of armor), plus the engrams from Shaxx are very easy to get if you just play. In Conclave, the only reward you get is some resources and exp (if you actually got kills), increasing rep and standing with Conclave takes ages and is near impossible to get now. You get cosmetics (all are nice) but that's really all you'd want from Teshin, Conclave only mods, Frames that are easy to get, armor set that you'd get quicker by farming plat, nah.

Only way WF can get functioning PvP would be to drastically alter the system of gameplay, nerfing movement adding stamina etc whatever

Controlling Corpus/Grineer/Infested/Corrupted for PvP would be great but will most likely not happen sadly

RailJack, however, can possibly add some nice spaceship/pirate esque PvP.

[Cephalycion]

On 2018-12-13 at 3:57 AM, (NSW)Kaffeebohnson said:

I'd honestly be up for a Conclave rework. Never really got into it, but I think a solid PVP option would be healthy for the game.

Agreed. That was one of the points i wanted to get across in this post. There are some people in the community who say that they play Warframe for the PvE experience only, hence PvP is irrelevant. I don't have a problem with those personal preferences, but I do have a problem when people pass off that kind of thinking as the rule.

PvP in coop PvE games has repeatedly and successfully been done before in other games like Destiny. DE should have more than enough talent to do the same.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Cephalycion

[Me.KayOh]

All I'd want for Conclave is movement speed to be increased. It's just too slow for me.