September 12Th: Community Hot Topics!

[Othergrunty]

Hopefully DE makes a Uturn on this. I mean, are scarves what his game really needs at the moment ? Aren't there way more pressing matters ? Armor 2.0 ? End-game ? Lore ? Gameplay mechanics etc etc etc ...

 

Those are different parts of the team. As someone from the APB: Reloaded dev team once said:

"Do you want the concept artist to work on the servers?"

 

Not everyone on a development team is a multi tallent wizard who can create 3D models, record and modify sounds, as well as programming the code of the game. Development teams are split up into groups of specialist who are all focused on their job. It's called Division of Labor and is how basicly any kind of industry works nowdays.

 

Which means that the people working on the scarves are not delaying armor 2.0, end game, lore or gameplay mechanics, at best they delaying new helmets or weapon reskins.

 

You also can't expect DE to just fire the poor guys to hire more programmers, since that has never worked in game development. So these guys need something to do, while the programmers and writers are having their issues, which results in them making scarves, since they need to do something.

[101blubb]

Armor 2.0

 

The Armor 2.0 / damage system is taking longer than expected and will not be in day 1 of Update 10. Know that we have not stopped working on it, it just simply isn’t ready for Update 10.

 

Well... U10 just got a lot less exciting - for now.

[FoxyKabam]

• Ember’s damage needs to be buffed to compensate for her low armor and she doesn’t have crowd controlling power anymore.

[gavdl13]

awesome..!!! keep it up..!

[Haldos]

So, you're just ignoring what everyone was saying in the Trinity feedback post? You know the one where everyone who played Trinity before update 9.8 enjoyed playing her.

I had a very long post that was not going try to force feed you my opinion, but rather try to show you some of the better sides to Trinity's change but to be perfectly honest, after rereading your post again, I have this strong feeling you would be incapable of being receptive and retort with similar harshness as you did in your innitial post towards DE. You are set in your opinion and I respect that, despite how wrong I think you are.

 

However, feel free to look back in the official Trinity discussion. I made my post on the first page about her new powers and that may be enough to at least show you more utility than you see now. Regardless, I hope you are able to withold such intensity in the future, it certainly is not becomming.

[Lunaticked]

 

9.8 Warframe Balance

 

• Ember’s damage needs to be buffed to compensate for her low armor and she doesn’t have crowd controlling power anymore.

 

 

That's maybe 1 point of the several that keep coming up.

 

The -biggest- complaint is that nerfing Overheat's damage resist completely changed her playstyle and outraged many, since there is no other Warframe that played like that.

 

She's too slow to deal with her low armor. Damage will -not- help that.

 

Yes, her damage is too low.

 

All 4 of her abilities now do basically the same thing.

[NERVNQSR]

do you guys simply NOT understand that nukes below 1000 damage are practically useless at any point above level 30 (mostly the fault of the armor system and overpowered weapons)? it doesn't help that the only mod that scales up their damage is rare and only ups it by 30%

of course introducing MORE mods isn't going to help, then you're just introducing more clutter instead of addressing the problem with warframe abilities

[RevenantPhoenix]

Now now, guys, keep it civil.

 

 

I dunno, I thought my post was pretty well reasoned and civil. I wasn't swearing, I wasn't calling anyone names, didn't question DE's competence, I didn't threaten to leave the game... actually I didn't make any threats at all.

 

I simply asked some questions and voiced my stance on an issue that's rather important to me and many others.

 

If my post came across as hostile or uncivil, I appologize as that wasn't my intent.

[litlit]

Subtitles:

 

Great! Wish it hadn't taken so long, but making the game more accessible is always a good thing. I also greatly appreciate an independent volume slider for Lotus's voice, now I can freely listen to the Grineer using combat formation bravo without Lotus interrupting me!

 

Damage 2.0:

 

It's good that information about armor 2.0 was added. I was looking forward to seeing the new system rolled out with U10, and I know a lot of other people were as well, but I take it as a good sign that you're choosing to continue working on it.

 

I would like to point out, however, that in the future, major changes that affect the way Warframes are played should probably be postponed if you've announced you will be making other major changes that affect the way damage will be dealt -- we have these major changes to Ember, Trinity, Mag, and Vauban, but with the knowledge that damage 2.0 is coming soon, it's difficult for us to give proper feedback.

 

Lack of topics the community actually cares about in this "community hot topics"

 

It's been said already but I'm saying it again. Why bother calling it "community hot topics" if they're not the main focus?

 

I can understand mentioning the coming UI changes; UI has pretty much always been a hot topic and it's good to know that changes are on the way.

 

There was mention of balancing frames, which is definitely a community hot topic. But there was 0 mention of the nerf/don't nerf Nova threads, despite this being perhaps the single most talked-about issue in the past 2 weeks.

 

Volt is still crying in the corner. The last "buff" to Volt was immensely unsatisfying, and it's unanimously agreed upon among the community that he needs a buff the most out of any frame. I'm not even exaggerating here, I have yet to talk to a single person in-game or on these forums that doesn't think Volt needs a buff badly. It's fine if you want to wait for damage 2.0 before going over him again, but at least acknowledge the issue. Talk to us!

 

Stealth threads are also very common. I believe you mentioned it in recent livestream, but again: talk to us! Even if it's just a brief mention, let us know in these threads that you're aware of the issue and understand that the community thinks it's important.

 

Hot topic that wasn't mentioned: Newbie experience

 

This gets its own section because it's very important.

 

First off, the newbie experience sucks. It's really, really, really bad. There is nothing in the game that explains anything new players need to know about how to play. It tells you how to move and shoot, but anyone who has even looked at a video game can figure that out. There's no mention of how player progression works; no mention of the loot system, damage mechanics, formas, catalysts/reactors -- it doesn't even tell you how to mod your equipment. You have to go to the forums or a third-party site to find any of that info. New players can also ask region chat in-game, but -- and this is important -- information is so scarce that a lot of new players don't even know what questions to ask. Hopefully the new UI will alleviate some of this, but there needs to be more (and better) tutorials.

 

Furthermore, newbies need to be able to progress through the solar system by their own power if they choose to. Currently, it's incredibly rare for new players to find the mods and resources they need to get to level 25+ areas. Stuff like Nano Spores, Control Modules, Serration, Hornet strike, etc. But how are you supposed to progress to that point without already having that stuff? New players who can't get past Earth can't get any Nano Spores or Control Modules, meaning they can't build any of the blueprints available to rank 1 and rank 2 in the market -- they're stuck with their starting frame, starting weapons, plus the Strun and Braton (which can be purchased for credits only). Seriously DE put some thought into this; new players need to be given a basic grasp of the loot, damage, and progression mechanics and they need to be given the opportunity to acquire basic equipment, mods, and resources to really get into the game.

 

New players can get help from region chat and from their friends, but the fact remains that feeling powerless and weak is frustrating to many players. Some people don't enjoy being forced to rely on others. New players should feel like they have options and the ability to progress through the solar system map on their own if they want to.

 

Another series of hot topics that weren't mentioned: Core gameplay and overall game balance

 

This is also its own section, even though I briefly mentioned it earlier. There has been a lot of discussion about the core gameplay and the way certain game systems interact with other systems in relation to game balance. These are issues that are too important to be ignored.

 

(I am only going to talk about depth of gameplay specifically, but there have been many discussions about other mechanics and aspects of balance over the past couple of weeks, such as lore, movement (another link), reward mechanics, Warframe ultimate ability spam, the mod system (here's another link), and the energy system.)

 

Why is it that our options -- parkour, stealth, abilities, melee, and guns -- don't combo together well in most cases? It's because of a lack of depth.

Look at the way the enemies are designed, from the perspective of a player in-game. Tons of small enemies with the occasional heavy unit that always know where you are and track you perfectly regardless of your movement. They are always bullet-sponge swarms that always act the same way. Low-level enemies are a serious threat to newer players regardless of their skill at FPS games, but become trivially easy as they farm better mods. As enemy level scales upwards, they become so powerful that they cannot be beaten by even the most skilled players with the best mods and equipment unless players manipulate the game mechanics to effectively grant themselves godmode.

This leads to a bizarre dichotomy of difficulty: the game is either incredibly difficult, or trivially easy. If you don't have the right mods, the game is punishingly hard. If you don't bring a Frost to a high level Corpus defense past wave 20, it's punishingly hard. Yet, if you bring Vauban and Frost with energy siphon to a Grineer defense, you can stay as long as you want -- it's easy, the only "difficulty" being how long you can tolerate the monotony. Even at extremely high levels, the game is trivially easy if you bring a decent setup.

Combined with the amount of grind players face, this means the most efficient playstyles, and therefore the ones that players naturally gravitate towards, are:
1) Rushing through non-defense missions for blueprints, void rewards, alert rewards, nightmare rewards, or to get to a farming node (unlock nightmare, boss nodes, mobile defense nodes, etc)
2) In defense and mobile defense, killing large numbers of enemies as fast as possible by pressing 4
3) In defense and mobile defense with enemies of sufficiently high level, killing large numbers of enemies as fast as possible by disabling them indefinitely with frame abilities and killing them with armor-ignoring weapons

The game boils down to "take no damage and kill as fast as possible" while leaving only a very few methods of doing so available to players. Furthermore, these methods are either incredibly repetitive, easy, and boring, or they are exploits (which often go unreported when discovered because the grind would be even more tedious without them). Pressing 3 with Frost is the same whether enemies are level 10 Corpus or level 200 Grineer. Same with Banshee 2, Nova 2&4, Saryn 1, Vauban 4. Use an ability that grants your squad immunity or allows your squad to kill more efficiently, shoot enemies, repeat.

There's no room for stuff like parkour, melee, or stealth -- players do those things for fun, but through reward mechanics the game makes it very clear that doing those detracts from your efficiency. Why use stealth at all? Just run to the exit. Why use parkour? It doesn't help you evade enemy fire. Why even bother moving around? You're in a Snowglobe, just stay still and shoot enemies as they come close so the loot's in one place. Why use melee instead of the Acrid? That level 130 Heavy Gunner has a lot of HP, and there's 10 others you need to kill to get to the next wave.

Enemies gain stats so bloated that it makes them impossible to deal with unless they can be disabled permanently, yet their AI is too simplistic to offer a true challenge that provides players with a real sense of engagement.

To top it all off, players possess abilities so powerful that I honestly can't think of anything that could be done to provide an engaging challenge, unless these abilities are radically reworked. It doesn't matter how "smart" or well-programmed the AI is when Frost can press 3 and make the whole squad immune to damage, or Vauban can keep them all permanently disabled with Vortex. Same thing applies to lower-level enemies, who are easily disposed of with the press of a button.

 

Again, I'm not sure what should be done. It's easy to say that enemies should be reworked to be challenging in a way that doesn't solely depend on gaining stats as they level, and that Warframe abilities should be changed so that they don't function as an "I win" button, mesh well with other players using their abilities, all while keeping them looking cool and not making them feel weak. But what does this mean in terms of how the game should be and what needs to happen to get it there?

 

Despite that uncertainty, the fact remains that Warframe's gameplay needs to have more depth: a greater variety of approaches to problems presented to players in-game, that look and feel meaningful. Depth will draw in new players and keep them interested despite all the grinding, and it ensures players continue to play longer because variety that feels meaningful counteracts burnout. Retaining players and drawing in more new ones means more plat purchases and better advertising through word-of-mouth and gameplay streaming.

 

The core gameplay of Warframe offers so much potential -- a four-player co-op experience, a good level of immersion due to an aesthetic and atmosphere that are very well-made, and the freedom of movement combined with the level of control offered to players is almost exhilarating. But as Warframe currently exists, its gameplay and reward mechanics discourage players from creatively and freely exploring the combat and movement mechanics, and instead encourage players to adopt a hyper-efficient approach to deal with the grind. (Once again I'll point out that players do play in ways that aren't min-maxed grinding, but when we do, we do so with constant reminders that we are being less efficient than we could otherwise be.)

 

Grinding isn't inherently a bad thing. But it needs to be disguised better, it needs to be made more fun and engaging, there needs to be a variety of ways to do it, and, most of all, the game's reward mechanics shouldn't make players feel like they need to play a different way.

 

TLDR

Edited September 13, 2013 by litlir

[Cpl_Facehugger]

So we'll continue to see threads daily about it. As someone who clearly hates Nova reformers, is that what you want?

So long as they're safely ignored by DE? Yes. Let them cry all they want.

I'll be playing with clanmates who use Nova and help make tedious missions like nightmare defense and T3 void def fun.

Meanwhile my Rhino will be stomping everywhere and getting more kills than the team's Nova, and my teammate's Saryn will still be getting more damage numbers with venom (even post performance fix) than my Nova ever could.

when the majority of players keep posting about nova nerfs

Really? That's why the community is divided, right? With a vocal minority on both sides.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Maybe you should just stick to easier frames like Nova or Saryn then ...  Any experienced Tenno knew exactly how to use pull to avoid toxics or bombards. If you pulled levl 100+ mobs w/o the cover of a bastille or a snowglobe, you were doing it wrong. Also you could pull things from behind a crate etc, seems to me you're the one who lacks experience on how to play Mag with the 8.4 Pull ... Also just because her ability kills a bunch of stuff doesn't make it "one of the best 1 powers", it only makes her seemingly easier and takes away from the possible team and solo synergies pull offered.

 

emm, i was expresing an opinion and you did this a personal comment, so here is my answer...

 

i am at mastery level 11, so i farmed, tried and own all warframes, prolly have more time ingame than you.

 

mag was my first warframe, the one i used for a long time before i can farm a higher level one, and let me tell you that the original pull was crap, everyone used that for trolling team mates, like loki's ability like i said before.

 

you want to use your melee? JUST JUMP AND HIT THEM, you dont need a power to do that right?

 

an experienced tenno bla bla bla, you state in your answer that to make the power viable you needed a bastille or a snowglobe, and you think thats synergy?

 

sorry pal, any power should work on is own, and like you said, i know how to use the new pull, maybe is time for you to do the same, believe me, is better now than ever...just try it.

[Szilvia]

I like it the new pull and now as mag i feel myself far better. The old one wasn't bad yes but not so nice if you want survive the toxic ancients and disruptors. Please don't roll this.

 

What about the weapon scaling and the old weapons balance?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Szilvia

[jayrome3000]

Come on 10 it is killing me!!!!!!!!

[merryfistmas]

I'm really excited for a lot of the stuff in update 10 but a something worries me.

 

• Ember’s damage needs to be buffed to compensate for her low armor and she doesn’t have crowd controlling power anymore.

It seems DE is going with the "loldmg" route regarding ember and didn't read most the feedback. The issue most people have is that all of her powers overlap too much, they are variations of AoE DoT. No amount of damage buffs are going to fix that.

 

• Vauban’s Bastille struggles on higher level areas where you’re surrounded by 40+ tough enemies who can one shot kill you. The feedback is semi-split as people are withholding judgment until the damage system tweaks come.
• Mag’s Pull, although very powerful, makes enemies fly in absolutely random directions. The old Pull allowed for a better melee experience.
• Nyx’s absorb needs to go through walls and Shade needs to stop using cloak while Absorb is active.  Psychic Bolts hit walls, disappear and need more damage.
• Trinity’s Blessing ability to allow for longer invulnerability while casting is much appreciated.

I'm happy about a lot of this though. I'm glad you realized the problem with pull and are continuing to look at Nyx. Also, I think pretty much any frame struggles against 40+ tough enemies that can one shot you so it's not like that's a problem with Bastille.

 

I looks like they decided to go through with search the dead and name the new frame nekros as well. Eh, whatever, the name's not a huge deal and they'll probably change his third ability if everyone hates it. They did say to wait and try it for ourselves so maybe there's something cool about it that we don't know.

Edited September 13, 2013 by merryfistmas

[DavidSPD]

The problem with Embers change is not CC, its the loss of utility. Overheat allowed her to survive at higher levels and to use those powers that required her to get close to enemies in order to work. Without Overheat its pretty stupid to walk into a room full of grineer/corpus, pop WoF and get shot to death. 

 

Also unless Necros search the death has a chance to spawn blueprints or mods then just get rid of it please.

 

Yeah this is the biggest problem in my eyes. She does pretty decent damage now, but all that damage doesn't mean a thing if she can't be up in their faces like she's supposed to. 

 

CC seems to be hit or miss. Sometimes the CC works, sometimes enemies just ignore it (but play CC animations) and run up and slap me. Talking infested here.

[Corevi]

Can we please get a release date on this soon?

[Taihus]

Ember doesn't need a buff, she needs a complete rework. I doesn't matter if her damage is increased, she's still dull and uninteresting to play.

[KingKeif]

Armor 2.0

 

The Armor 2.0 / damage system is taking longer than expected and will not be in day 1 of Update 10. Know that we have not stopped working on it, it just simply isn’t ready for Update 10.

NOOOOOOOOOO! lol.

[Zuzzie]

I'm excited about everything but one thing.... the disappointing search the dead ability, and the fact that they removed the dangly bits off of him. more disappointed about search the dead though. I absolutely despise the thought of having it in the game, would rather have something that's actually useful to me. probably just forma the slot as soon as I get Nekros to 30 and pretend the ability (if you can even call it an ability) was never put into the game. 

The dangly bits will likely be Nekros' scarf. Just my best guess, don't quote me on that.

[KaraLotus]

Is U10 not on Friday? D: When is it?

[rechot]

i cant wait i wounder what the neckros has in store and how many docter visits will he need

[KazuraBlaze]

I really don't see what's so bad about Desecrate. Getting the extra chance on getting Health, Mods and resources :/ Especially if you're farming and is low on Health.

 

I'm not a Vauban player and even I see that they probably need to fix Bastille again. Ember's new Fireball is great, but the new Fire Blast isn't so great. (Haven't tried Mag's new stuff yet so no opinion for now.) Trinity seems fine for now. PLEASE FIX PSYCHIC BOLTS HITTING WALLS; such a waste of energy on the Grineer Galleons.... I'll wait for everything to actually come out to have an opinion (new UI, Lotus voices, etc.) But I can't wait for Nekros! :)

 

Btw, I saw an earlier post mentioning Banshee, Loki and Volt. Does anybody agree they need a little buff?

Edited September 13, 2013 by KazuraBlaze

[Brasten]

• Ember’s damage needs to be buffed to compensate for her low armor and she doesn’t have crowd controlling power anymore.

35 pages pointing out that Ember is

1: Ranged DoT

2: Close DoT

3: Close DoT

4: Close DoT

And nothing but DoT. Maybe there was too much dot so this happened...

Edited September 14, 2013 by Brasten

[GreatFreedom]

all i want is a properly fixed USEFUL saryn not a 1 skill half useless hit 4 spamming saryn who can sometimes 1hit if there isnt a nova around.. or just have its 3second stun.. id like a useful alternative to havign to have more then 5different frames for each type where saryn can do the power of 3frames in 1 which why i initially chose her >.>

[jayrome3000]

when is 10 going to drop