Being held hostage by trolls.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Just now, JackHargreav said:

And evidently other people think otherwise.

That's why both parties need to negotiate a compromise; you're arguing for exclusive representation, and blowing off the concerns of a fairly sizable chunk of the community. Nightwave can be altered in a way so that it doesn't covert Warframe into a job.

[NezuHimeSama]

4 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

And evidently other people think otherwise.

Which doesn't invalidate the other party.

Don't forget, you're on the offense here.

[JackHargreav]

Just now, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

That's why both parties need to negotiate a compromise; you're arguing for exclusive representation, and blowing off the concerns of a fairly sizable chunk of the community. Nightwave can be altered in a way so that it doesn't covert Warframe into a job.

Yep. And that I don't have a problem with. Is the new system perfect? No. It could be more "casual friendly". But to say that our current tasks are nothing but complete chores and whatnot just hurts my ears (or eyes in this case). Is the friend requirement a good thing? No and yes. It depends. There could be some actually challenging tasks without the requirement (which would be more friendly with the majority of the player base) but Elite weeklies aren't supposed to be mandatory so it doesn't concern me. (Not that I still like that 60 min survival. That shouldn't be there even if it's just an extra challenge.)

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

Which doesn't invalidate the other party.

Don't forget, you're on the offense here.

Sure it doesn't. But the system isn't in such condition as many of you describe it. And for everything else I just have the same that I wrote for Vile Slanders. I'm not opposed to change, but the over exaggeration around the system, I am.

[NezuHimeSama]

But it is, actually, exactly as it has been described. A daily chore. A slog. A thing you do just to not "miss out" on your exclusive e-peen for that day/week/whatever.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean it isn't what it is.

[JackHargreav]

13 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

But it is, actually, exactly as it has been described. A daily chore. A slog. A thing you do just to not "miss out" on your exclusive e-peen for that day/week/whatever.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean it isn't what it is.

Just because you think it's a chore It doesn't mean it is in fact a chore.

[NezuHimeSama]

That I(and others) think it's a chore does mean it is, in fact, a chore.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean it's not a chore.

[JackHargreav]

1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That I(and others) think it's a chore does mean it is, in fact, a chore.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean it's not a chore.

A huge problem here is that you and others think it's a chore therefore you consider it a chore while me and many others don't think it's a chore so I don't consider it a chore. 

There is no argument to be had since one group thinks that an other thinks the complete opposite.

[SpicyDinosaur]

OP, if you pres ESC, there's an option to "Abort Mission" you're welcome. Don't join endless stuff like that, especially when the current requirement is for an hour run, if you don't intend to actually... play the mission.

 

The best solution on both sides is really just bring people you know. I have held people "hostage" long before this, especially people that would join an endless fissure like a survival, and then want out at 5 mins. No.

[NezuHimeSama]

chore

• n.
  A routine or minor duty or task. See Synonyms at task.
• n.
  Daily or routine domestic tasks, especially a farmer's routine morning and evening tasks, such as feeding livestock.
• n.
  An unpleasant or burdensome task.

 

1 is indisputable. It's a routine or minor duty or task. But, for what we're all thinking...

3 is inclusive. It doesn't matter if you think it's a chore or not. The definition doesn't say "something that no one finds pleasant". If one person says it's a chore, it becomes a chore. Calling it as such is therefore not wrong.

Similarly, if someone is offended by something, that thing becomes offensive, whether or not you find it to be such. How damaging it is to credit that offense or adhere to the offended party is another topic entirely, but by being offensive to anyone, that thing becomes, by definition, an offensive thing, because something defined as offensive, is something that has offended someone. That's how inclusive terms work.

As such, it doesn't matter if you find it pleasant or fun or not a chore, because at the end of a day, the thing is a chore. Why you started an argument about whether or not it's a chore is anyone's guess, though, especially since you don't seem to want to follow through with said argument that you started, but hey, a chore is a chore.

Let's try to think of some ways to make it not so much of a chore, rather than arguing over how valid someone is for not liking something you like.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

38 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

But it is, actually, exactly as it has been described. A daily chore. A slog. A thing you do just to not "miss out" on your exclusive e-peen for that day/week/whatever.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean it isn't what it is.

I think the issue you and I may be oblivious to, at least in regards to his perspective, is that the opposite side is pro-conning Nightwave against the original Alert system. Nightwave does add far more enticing rewards than the original Alert System; it does use a far more immersive system for curating challenges than the old Alert system; but where Nightwave falls short, is time investment versus entertainment. With the original Alert system, missions could be completed in 10 minutes max; less than a minute at minimum. It was still a bit of chore, but it the requirements were lenient enough to permit for a cheap giggle.

Nightwave doesn't support that level of flexibility. With Alerts, I could just participate with 0 consideration as to my loadout; with Nightwave, I'm having to spend extra time modifying my loadouts, just to make sure that I can actually fulfill the requirements for certain challenges, such as kill 150 enemies with fire damage. This combined with forced social play, forced non-combat challenges (at its core, Warframe is a shooter, that is its allure; ransoming rewards behind conservation is going to irritate people who primarily play Warframe for the combat), repetitive challenges (You have to sit through 6 loading screens just to kill 3 bosses; what, is this Anthem?), and Warframe starts becoming more of a time consuming hassle than an enjoyable use of time.

Nobody likes having rewards gated behind activities that are either inconvenient or monotonous, and that is exactly what Nightwave has done. It completely defeats the purpose of a game. In that regard, Nightwave actually loses to the original Alert System, and given that entertainment value is the most marketable aspect of a video game, that's a big loss on Nightwave's end.

Just throwing it out there as a potential talking point.

Edited March 6, 2019 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

2 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Let's try to think of some ways to make it not so much of a chore, rather than arguing over how valid someone is for not liking something you like. 

Somebody put this man on a pulpit, 'cause he's got brains and jive.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

38 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

A huge problem here is that you and others think it's a chore therefore you consider it a chore while me and many others don't think it's a chore so I don't consider it a chore. 

There is no argument to be had since one group thinks that an other thinks the complete opposite.

I have a solution in mind, actually. It has to do with Nightwave's reward structure. Say the challenge system remained more or less the same (But mandating social play HAS GOT TO GO), but the ranking system was altered.

Instead of rewarding slots, Forma, Potatos, Kuva, Mods, etc. etc. from rank ups, what if ranking up only awarded Wolf Creds? Meanwhile, all the current rewards were transferred over to the Nightwave shop, and could be purchased with Wolf Creds. That way, players can cherry pick challenges based on their entertainment value, and still acquire goodies like Umbral Formas and Nightwave Cosmetics.

So instead of having to rank all the way up to 29 to get that blasted Umbral Forma, you could just buy it for the total amount of Wolf Creds that would be awarded at Rank 5. I can do without the Kuva, the Slots, the Formas, the potatoes, and even the new mods. That Umbral Forma is the only thing of value to me on the entire list, and I'd have to go through hours and hours of boredom and frustration just to get it. That mandated session of boredom and frustration runs completely counter to the purpose of a video game; a statement I think any gamer would concur with.

Rather than compare yourself to us with a passive-aggressive air, and imply that we're whining for the sake whining, you could actually try to contribute to resolving the issue; otherwise, you have nothing to say that's of any relevance, because this issue and its resolution has no impact on you whatsoever.

Edited March 6, 2019 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[NezuHimeSama]

To put it out there, I think the big problem behind ransoming a reward behind anything is that there will be parts of the game people just don't want to, or in some cases, can't play. Some people are fine with this because "get good scrub", but nobody likes when it happens to them.

Nightwave shouldn't be telling people how to play, and telling everyone who doesn't like it to #*!% off. It should be giving players things they can, but aren't required to, do. Having Nightwave missions just pile up for players to play when they have the time or motivation to is really the sensible thing to do. Why that's so hard for developers or publishers to grasp, idk. Maybe they really think that the best way to keep people playing is to turn the game into an obligation. Hell, maybe they're right. But, it's definitely not the way to keep me playing, and evidently, I am not the only one.

 

If nightwave isn't changed? Yeah, it's an eventuality that I will drop warframe completely for months on end, and just never bother catching up ever again. It happened in PSO2, it can happen here.

Also, PSO2 seems to be struggling to keep it's players through all the daily chores? They sure are rushing out a lot of content and power creep to entice people back into playing lately, and yet the game is basically dead as soon as people finish up with their chores, and pretty inactive the rest of the time.

[JackHargreav]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Instead of rewarding slots, Forma, Potatos, Kuva, Mods, etc. etc. from rank ups, what if ranking up only awarded Wolf Creds? Meanwhile, all the current rewards were transferred over to the Nightwave shop, and could be purchased with Wolf Creds. That way, players can cherry pick challenges based on their entertainment value, and still acquire goodies like Umbral Formas and Nightwave Cosmetics.

So instead of having to rank all the way up to 29 to get that blasted Umbral Forma, you could just buy it for the total amount of Wolf Creds that would be awarded at Rank 5. I can do without the Kuva, the Slots, the Formas, the potatoes, and even the new mods. That Umbral Forma is the only thing of value to me on the entire list, and I'd have to go through hours and hours of boredom and frustration just to get it. That mandated session of boredom and frustration runs completely counter to the purpose of a video game; a statement I think any gamer would concur with.

I like the idea. We have a weekly cap on how many tasks we can do, so there would be a wall that would keep players away from just rushing it in one day. Though either Wolf creds per rank have to be lowered or prices have to go up since we would be able to get wolf credits much faster. So a helmet would cost about 150-200 and with that cosmetics in market would still have a place.

[000l000]

Le 04/03/2019 à 03:54, Drachnyn a dit :

Hopefully that comes with the next mainline. It should have been ingame since the very start of endless missions but some things take far too long.

Then we'll have to endure one round extraction/interception missions though. There are leavers everywhere, for some reasons, people leave here and there, once they got a rare item in fissures, only after a round for reasons... I don't care about defense or survival (i don't like how most people play in survival anyway, better play solo there or with my wife only) but let be realistic a second, leavers in interception is a plague - This missions need players.

All of this mission PUG mechanics is flawed and really needs some overhaul, how host is handled too.

Rewards system should be reworked, there should be real incentive to stay at least 4 or 5 waves, and DE should really communicate about it. Many players don't even know they get a free enhanced relic after 5 waves of an endless mission fissure.

Edited March 6, 2019 by 000l000

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb 000l000:

Then we'll have to endure one round extraction/interception missions though. There are leavers everywhere, for some reasons, people leave here and there, once they got a rare item in fissures, only after a round for reasons... I don't care about defense or survival (i don't like how most people play in survival anyway, better play solo there or with my wife only) but let be realistic a second, leavers in interception is a plague - This missions need players.

All of this mission PUG mechanics is flawed and really needs some overhaul, how host is handled too.

Rewards system should be reworked, there should be real incentive to stay at least 4 or 5 waves, and DE should really communicate about it. Many players don't even know they get a free enhanced relic after 5 waves of an endless mission fissure.

Well maybe if those people need to leave we should hold them hostage. You cant go into a public group and expect everyone to go for the same amount as you do. If you want that you'll have to look for a group either in discord or in recruiting.

[Autongnosis]

Le 04/03/2019 à 11:22, Kriegerurteil a dit :

It is a team game, and there is no u in team. You shouldn't be able to leave unless you decide so as a team. Adding the abilty to leave whenever will just further seal the fate of endelss missions.

Actually, not really. What that allows os that the classic 1-3 people who wants to stay for 60 and 1-3 who stay for 10 mins now doesn't force one group to conform to the other. Who wants to leave leaves, and who wants to stay stay. I'd say it's an amazing thing. I've lost countof all the missed opportunities for longer runs I've had to ditch because one guy had rl stuff or just didn't want to stay longer (which I'm totally fine with, i mean you play what you want to). 

[JackHargreav]

10 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

chore

• n.
  A routine or minor duty or task. See Synonyms at task.
• n.
  Daily or routine domestic tasks, especially a farmer's routine morning and evening tasks, such as feeding livestock.
• n.
  An unpleasant or burdensome task.

 

1 is indisputable. It's a routine or minor duty or task. But, for what we're all thinking...

3 is inclusive. It doesn't matter if you think it's a chore or not. The definition doesn't say "something that no one finds pleasant". If one person says it's a chore, it becomes a chore. Calling it as such is therefore not wrong.

Similarly, if someone is offended by something, that thing becomes offensive, whether or not you find it to be such. How damaging it is to credit that offense or adhere to the offended party is another topic entirely, but by being offensive to anyone, that thing becomes, by definition, an offensive thing, because something defined as offensive, is something that has offended someone. That's how inclusive terms work.

As such, it doesn't matter if you find it pleasant or fun or not a chore, because at the end of a day, the thing is a chore. Why you started an argument about whether or not it's a chore is anyone's guess, though, especially since you don't seem to want to follow through with said argument that you started, but hey, a chore is a chore.

Let's try to think of some ways to make it not so much of a chore, rather than arguing over how valid someone is for not liking something you like.

I don't even.

"A routine or minor duty or task." You do it if you want. It's not like cleaning up or washing the dishes which is something that you actually should do for obvious reasons.

"An unpleasant or burdensome task." Subjective.

"If one person says it's a chore, it becomes a chore." If I have to explain what is wrong here that's just sad.

"Let's try to think of some ways to make it not so much of a chore, rather than arguing over how valid someone is for not liking something you like." Already said that I'm not against change in the new system. And I already left feedback about how I think it should change. I expressed here and elsewhere that 60 min survival and whatnot is something that shouldn't be, I already agreed that wolf creds should be easier to get. So what now? Just because I'm not agreeing on with you on Nightwave being a chore, It doesn't mean I don't agree that there should be changes.

[NezuHimeSama]

ofc don't actually contribute anything, just whine and jump on the defensive. You came into this topic to complain about people complaining. You're the one on the offensive here, and you can't actually back up anything you're saying, and instead want to perpetuate an argument for argument's sake because you don't want to "lose on the internet".

I already explained, it's an inclusive term, and already explained why. Your only response is "no ur rong thats sad".  If you have nothing to say, don't.
 

5 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Actually, not really. What that allows os that the classic 1-3 people who wants to stay for 60 and 1-3 who stay for 10 mins now doesn't force one group to conform to the other. Who wants to leave leaves, and who wants to stay stay. I'd say it's an amazing thing. I've lost countof all the missed opportunities for longer runs I've had to ditch because one guy had rl stuff or just didn't want to stay longer (which I'm totally fine with, i mean you play what you want to). 

 

While I think the ability to extract on your own is a good thing and should have been there ages ago in survival, there is a problem with the fact that new players can't join mid-mission, for various reasons.

I think it would be better to rework endless modes to allow for players to drop in and out, maybe remove rotations entirely(everyone hates these anyway, right? that's not just me?) and rather than ever increasing wave length/enemy level, have those things just stay the same, and add in a "hard mode" with higher level enemies. Maybe have a few classic endless missions for people who want the challenge, such as for dark sectors, but start them at a higher level so we aren't expected to waste literal hours just to get to the fun part.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[Ms_Salami]

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I think it would be better to rework endless modes to allow for players to drop in and out, maybe remove rotations entirely(everyone hates these anyway, right? that's not just me?) and rather than ever increasing wave length/enemy level, have those things just stay the same, and add in a "hard mode" with higher level enemies. Maybe have a few classic endless missions for people who want the challenge, such as for dark sectors, but start them at a higher level so we aren't expected to waste literal hours just to get to the fun part.

 

You would need options in the start mission to do this otherwise 'surprise' you've joined a level 150 mission you thought was level 20, and even then you could potentially have a never ending mission running as players that opt to join in a mission found they are in one that has been running for hours and hours with enemies scales even higher. But if levels and rewards don't scale what's the point in endless at all?

In the end, the only point to having mission longer than 20 mins is for a sense of pride and accomplishment (or as its now called, Nightwave 🙄) because the drop rotations discourage it with no increased reward incentives but then there is room to exploit ongoing missions in large clans (if you can drop in and out).

[000l000]

Il y a 8 heures, Drachnyn a dit :

Well maybe if those people need to leave we should hold them hostage. You cant go into a public group and expect everyone to go for the same amount as you do. If you want that you'll have to look for a group either in discord or in recruiting.

Players who don't want to play more than one round aren't victims. They should play solo.

Edited March 6, 2019 by 000l000

[NezuHimeSama]

22 minutes ago, Ms_Salami said:

You would need options in the start mission to do this otherwise 'surprise' you've joined a level 150 mission you thought was level 20, and even then you could potentially have a never ending mission running as players that opt to join in a mission found they are in one that has been running for hours and hours with enemies scales even higher. But if levels and rewards don't scale what's the point in endless at all?

In the end, the only point to having mission longer than 20 mins is for a sense of pride and accomplishment (or as its now called, Nightwave 🙄) because the drop rotations discourage it with no increased reward incentives but then there is room to exploit ongoing missions in large clans (if you can drop in and out).

Yeah it would be similar to nightmare or invasions, where you have a normal or hard mode option when you select a mission.

Like I said, remove level scaling for standard missions so people don't accidentally pop into a lv80 survival.

[Ham_Grenabe]

The trolls shall have no more power over you, OP. With the next update (this week, they say), you'll be able to independently extract from non-wave endless missions. 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[NezuHimeSama]

34 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The trolls shall have no more power over you, OP. With the next update (this week, they say), you'll be able to independently extract from non-wave endless missions. 

 

 

Spoiler