Night Wave Solution

[Kairo-Kuraku]

Night Wave has undoubtedly been a Nightmare.(I mean it has split players immensely not "The whole system was a mess")

Players are by far split on whether it is good or bad and that's fine. Personally, I hate how it is now, and I'm not the only one. It was a good start to fixing Alerts, but is by no means an end and should be altered a bit for everyone to enjoy. People who don't like it are as justified as those who do like it. Anyways...

 

I figured a possible way to keep NW but trim the fat. Throw away the meaningless tasks disguising as "challenges" and turn them into missions. Daily and Weekly missions, are missions of various types range from LVL 10-45, this way it encourages players to get to Sedna and also gives most players access to all the story by then, giving them a reason to have an Umbral Forma. 

Elite Missions should be like LVL 90-150 + modifiers to make it better. (Could also make these MR locked too at like MR12, but that doesn't matter to me.) New Players, would be able to do the missions if they wanted, likely wouldn't finish, but they could try. And decrease Revives to 2 per player and not 4 to make it more interesting. 

Any "infinite" missions shouldn't be higher than 20 min/wave/zone, because that is average for most players and sucks when it's any higher.

All missions still give the standing like current NW standing and should have a reward after each, the higher the level, the better the reward. (Imagine like the old Alerts, but these aren't the purpose)

                                 Daily missions: 50,000 credits or so, Potatoes, Endo, Forma.  Enough for New Players to be motivated to do it, but not a ton cause they are daily.

                                 Weekly Missions: Oxium, Tellurium, Detonite Injectors, Fieldrons, Mutagen Mass, Potatoes, Forma, Exilus Adapters, Rivens, etc. Respective amounts, not to overshadow other aspects for the game

                                 Elite Missions: Potatoes, Forma, Exilus Adapters, Endo (large amount) Rivens, All previous Items, but scaled accordingly. 

All of that, (It's just an Example of what it could be like, but I wouldn't know how to balance it. Potatoes, Forma and Adapters should be on all tables tho. Just rarity is scaled) + NW standing 

Maybe a bit too much, but you get the point. Each mission type, (Daily, Weekly, Elite) has its own reward pool to attract every player group. This way it's not all up in your face to do random tasks while playing, but gives you purpose to play that mission outside of what you were going to do anyway, like Eidolons, Fissures, Giant Fortuna Spider Psychos, whatever.

Current NW lacks reward. When I did it, it seemed very empty and boring, but if other items were up for grabs and aren't stupid tasks, I would be more inclined to join the fun. I love the game, but I hate it when I'm told to do something while playing. These missions wouldn't be in your face, but they would be like Syndicate missions. There, but easily ignored. 

This obviously isn't perfect for a solution, but I feel like it would be more publicly accepted and would stop driving players away. Sorties have been around for a while now, this is just a different version of that essentially. Don't kill me, please 🙂

Edited April 14, 2019 by Kairo-Kuraku
Explained "Nightwave is a Nightmare" is an observation not an opinion

[Oreades]

Overall I think Nightwave would benefit from a UI overhaul that let players know the current week and how close it was to expiring. Because IMHO that uncertainty of being able to determine if you are "on track" to hit your desired reward tier is where a lot of the stress related to Nightwave is coming from. 

Some of the challenges could definitely be toned down a bit cause they IMO have crossed the line from "challenge" to "tedious" in a couple instances. 

Tho they wouldn't be nearly so "bad" if the challenges didn't expire at the start of the next week. Instead staying available to complete at any point until the end of the event. Which would avoid a scenario where the event (intended to get people to log in) could become a deterrent to people logging in if there was no way for them to reach their desired tier. 

People have brought up issues where people would potentially get by with less effort if multiple "Use X Forma" where allowed to be stored and triggered off the same forma near the end of the event. For that I'd personally be fine if the event triggered them sequentially. for identical challenges. But that would probably be a fairly complicated whoozle to code. 

Dailies would expire as per normal

Edited April 12, 2019 by Oreades

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

13 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

Night Wave has undoubtedly been a Nightmare

I 'doubt' that's a general statement. Sure, not perfect, mostly everyone can agree. But farm from nightmare if you are not too picky.

 

13 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

figured a possible way to keep NW but trim the fat. Throw away the meaningless tasks disguising as "challenges" and turn them into missions. Daily and Weekly missions, are missions of various types range from LVL 10-45, this way it encourages players to get to Sedna and also gives most players access to all the story by then, giving them a reason to have an Umbral Forma. 

Elite Missions should be like LVL 90-150 + modifiers to make it better. (Could also make these MR locked too at like MR12, but that doesn't matter to me.) New Players, would be able to do the missions if they wanted, likely wouldn't finish, but they could try. And decrease Revives to 2 per player and not 4 to make it more interesting. 

Yeah, except most people already whine because they can't do elite. While this wouldn't affect me I can already see the crying: "Can't reach x mission before the week ends! Unfair!". I do like it, but I'm afraid many won't.

 

13 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

All missions still give the standing like current NW standing and should have a reward after each, the higher the level, the better the reward. (Imagine like the old Alerts, but these aren't the purpose)

                                 Daily missions: 50,000 credits or so, Potatoes, Endo, Forma.  Enough for New Players to be motivated to do it, but not a ton cause they are daily.

                                 Weekly Missions: Oxium, Tellurium, Detonite Injectors, Fieldrons, Mutagen Mass, Potatoes, Forma, Exilus Adapters, Rivens, etc. Respective amounts, not to overshadow other aspects for the game

                                 Elite Missions: Potatoes, Forma, Exilus Adapters, Endo (large amount) Rivens, All previous Items, but scaled accordingly. 

I'd like it as well, but I'm not sure DE would do it so easily. Besides the higher tiered rewards are more needed by newbies. That'd lock them out of potatoes, which would cause more complaining. As for working for them, well, check above.

 

TL;DR Good intentions, nice suggestions. But nightwave's biggest problem isn't exactly implementation, even if it could have been better (which I'm sure will be mostly corrected for next season), it's something else.

Edited April 12, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

TL;DR Good intentions, nice suggestions. But nightwave's biggest problem isn't exactly implementation, even if it could have been better (which I'm sure will be mostly corrected for next season), it's something else.

I disagree to an extent- the biggest issue Nightwave has is implementation, though not necessarily in the chores it wants you to do, but in how it handles the payoff for doing them. Going back to a setup that rewards a single mission with a single reward would be a step in the right direction, I think, though I still think a system that does away with the battlepass nonsense and moves everything to the cred offerings, with every task awarding creds would be better as a compromise solution, since it wouldn't require a major rework of tasks, just the rewards. 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

6 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

I disagree to an extent- the biggest issue Nightwave has is implementation, though not necessarily in the chores it wants you to do, but in how it handles the payoff for doing them. Going back to a setup that rewards a single mission with a single reward would be a step in the right direction, I think, though I still think a system that does away with the battlepass nonsense and moves everything to the cred offerings, with every task awarding creds would be better as a compromise solution, since it wouldn't require a major rework of tasks, just the rewards. 

That we agree with. My main point was that even if Op's idea is implemented there's always someone who won't like it, and will get vocal about it. I liked alerts, I like NW, and I like what OP proposes. All good alternatives on paper. The problem is acceptance and how after OP's suggestion is hypothetically implemented more complaining will come and another OP will suggest yet another alternative system, and round and round we go. 

Nothing bad with change, but mindless complaining doesn't take the game anywhere either. NW is far from perfect, sure, but it's not gamebreaking as some make it out to be. The same way as I pointed out at the very beggining of NW while everyone was praising it as the perfect system that it was not, despite DE nragging about it like that.

Edited April 12, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(XBOX)Sumosan13]

41 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

Night Wave has undoubtedly been a Nightmare.                            

Probably more fitting to end that with "IMO" or "for me".  I feel the exact opposite regarding Nightwave; I really like it.

I just posted my feedback (on page...86...of the feeback thread on it) and it was overall very positive.

I don't really have ANY complaints at all with the Nightwave system.  One or two things weren't the "funnest" but a game of this magnitude is never going to please everyone.

[Kairo-Kuraku]

On 2019-04-12 at 3:01 PM, (XB1)Sumosan13 said:

Probably more fitting to end that with "IMO" or "for me".  I feel the exact opposite regarding Nightwave; I really like it.

That was more meant as in, "it has destroyed more than it's helped" or "its divided the community more than anything has" 

You have to admit, a lot of people hate it and a lot of people hate the people who hate it. And like I said up there community wise, I have never seen a system cause more people to leave in the 4 years that I've played.

I'll edit that in, since you aren't the only one to bring this up.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

To put it bluntly, no thankyou. If you're going to make elite missions elite, make them actually hard, lvl 90 - 150 is a joke in this game. As for revives you forgot about arcanes. Your elite rewards are not rewards, save maybe rivens. Forma is ok, potatoes and exilus are absolutely not needed and endo is not wanted either and I imagine that's the same for many vets. And by the way what you've literally done there is just add another sortie to the week, nothing else. Also inifinte missions to 20 mins are a joke and simply kill the whole point of having an endurance mission challenge. 

Personally I like Nightwave except that it's far too easy.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Zilchy

[Kairo-Kuraku]

On 2019-04-12 at 2:26 PM, Oreades said:

Overall I think Nightwave would benefit from a UI overhaul that let players know the current week and how close it was to expiring. Because IMHO that uncertainty of being able to determine if you are "on track" to hit your desired reward tier is where a lot of the stress related to Nightwave is coming from. 

Some of the challenges could definitely be toned down a bit cause they IMO have crossed the line from "challenge" to "tedious" in a couple instances. 

Tho they wouldn't be nearly so "bad" if the challenges didn't expire at the start of the next week. Instead staying available to complete at any point until the end of the event. Which would avoid a scenario where the event (intended to get people to log in) could become a deterrent to people logging in if there was no way for them to reach their desired tier. 

People have brought up issues where people would potentially get by with less effort if multiple "Use X Forma" where allowed to be stored and triggered off the same forma near the end of the event. For that I'd personally be fine if the event triggered them sequentially. for identical challenges. But that would probably be a fairly complicated whoozle to code. 

Dailies would expire as per normal

I don't know about using forma in the way I understood it from your statement, that might be a little too easy. I understood it as you can use a certain amount of formula to buy your way up to tiers. Interesting tho, will look into it more.

It is possible that a lot of deterrent is the fact that things are time gated. I get that there could be a stress factor among people who don't know if they are on track to get the tier 30 or if they have done everything before the clock resets. Even my idea doesn't address that too much which might be a bigger flaw in it.

I do appreciate the idea the chores not expiring after Time and and just building up. This way you're not pushed to finish them and it's a little bit more free will as to when you do it. the only thing I could see here being an issue, is you could do a lot of the similar chores like "kill x enemies" and like one go. Other than that I think it would be a great step in the right direction.

 

[Oreades]

6 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

I don't know about using forma in the way I understood it from your statement, that might be a little too easy. I understood it as you can use a certain amount of formula to buy your way up to tiers. Interesting tho, will look into it more.

 

No... ?

I'm talking about how we've had multiple instances of the Nightwave mission "Use X Forma" I could have easily swapped that with "Complete X Sorties" or "Open X Relics". Where people have taken issue with the fact that if those where allowed to stack in a way that say Four "Use Three Forma" Missions all activated simultaneously that Player A who had been there from the beginning would have used a total of Twelve Forma over the event and Player B who came in at the last minute would have only used Three Forma to clear all Four missions. 

So for that instance of duplicate missions I agreed with them that they should resolve sequentially instead of simultaneously.  Where dissimilar missions resolving simultaneously would be totally fine. 

[Kairo-Kuraku]

5 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

To put it bluntly, no thankyou. If you're going to make elite missions elite, make them actually hard, lvl 90 - 150 is a joke in this game. As for revives you forgot about arcanes. Your elite rewards are not rewards, save maybe rivens. Forma is ok, potatoes and exilus are absolutely not needed and endo is not wanted either and I imagine that's the same for many vets. And by the way what you've literally done there is just add another sortie to the week, nothing else. Also inifinte missions to 20 mins are a joke and simply kill the whole point of having an endurance mission challenge. 

Personally I like Nightwave except that it's far too easy.

First off, Warframe doesn't have any elite rewards. So saying that those items aren't elite rewards means nothing because that's the best we got. You can't say prime mods are elite rewards because those are accessible to anybody and everybody when Baro comes around. And throwing them into the pool would upset a lot of people. Also you would be surprised on how many people would still appreciate having those items among vets. 

Also we have a very different range of what makes you a veteran player. and this idea isn't meant for veteran players it's meant for high-level players and which vets fall into. Saying Endo is something vets need would be a complete wrong statement. Sure there are people who have hundreds of thousands of endo and they don't use it for anything, but there are people like me who buy a crap ton of prime mods and use all of our Endo filling them up to rank 10. A lot more people including me use our Endo to sell items then you think. And freak that's 40000+ per mod.

Things would be locked at 20 min / wave because no one likes doing anything longer than 40 minutes and average people only play to 20. those missions aren't necessarily endurance missions as they were intended. The word endurance doesn't even fit Warframe. the only endurance that would be expressed as people's ability to play such a boring mission for longer than 40 minutes. 

Also you must not have finished reading because I specifically said, 

On 2019-04-12 at 2:14 PM, Kairo-Kuraku said:

Sorties have been around for a while now, this is just a different version of that essentially.

 

[Kairo-Kuraku]

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

No... ?

I'm talking about how we've had multiple instances of the Nightwave mission "Use X Forma" I could have easily swapped that with "Complete X Sorties" or "Open X Relics". Where people have taken issue with the fact that if those where allowed to stack in a way that say Four "Use Three Forma" Missions all activated simultaneously that Player A who had been there from the beginning would have used a total of Twelve Forma over the event and Player B who came in at the last minute would have only used Three Forma to clear all Four missions. 

So for that instance of duplicate missions I agreed with them that they should resolve sequentially instead of simultaneously.  Where dissimilar missions resolving simultaneously would be totally fine. 

Okay gotcha. After re-reading your original post I get what you mean. Yeah In those situations that would be the best. Honestly anything that requires you to expend something in your inventory that you might not have use for then or have no reason to, should be abolished or stacked like that.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

First off, Warframe doesn't have any elite rewards. So saying that those items aren't elite rewards means nothing because that's the best we got. You can't say prime mods are elite rewards because those are accessible to anybody and everybody when Baro comes around. And throwing them into the pool would upset a lot of people. Also you would be surprised on how many people would still appreciate having those items among vets. 

Also we have a very different range of what makes you a veteran player. and this idea isn't meant for veteran players it's meant for high-level players and which vets fall into. Saying Endo is something vets need would be a complete wrong statement. Sure there are people who have hundreds of thousands of endo and they don't use it for anything, but there are people like me who buy a crap ton of prime mods and use all of our Endo filling them up to rank 10. A lot more people including me use our Endo to sell items then you think. And freak that's 40000+ per mod.

Things would be locked at 20 min / wave because no one likes doing anything longer than 40 minutes and average people only play to 20. those missions aren't necessarily endurance missions as they were intended. The word endurance doesn't even fit Warframe. the only endurance that would be expressed as people's ability to play such a boring mission for longer than 40 minutes. 

Also you must not have finished reading because I specifically said, 

 

Actually Kuva is the best reward we have. I never suggested using prime mods as a reward? I also sell primed mods and still don't need endo and again I'm sure I'm not alone, you want these rewards to appeal to everyone, I'm telling you right now that they don't. The best reward is kuva because it's irritating to gather and we always need more of it. 
Again with the assumption that "no one likes doing anything longer than 40 mins". You're trying to appeal to everyone remember, once again it isn't. There are plenty of people who like to do endurance runs, what about them? 

Yes I did miss that last bit sorry.

You wanted feedback, I'm giving you it. Don't get hostile because you don't like the feedback, that's how critique works.

[Kairo-Kuraku]

On 2019-04-12 at 2:27 PM, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Yeah, except most people already whine because they can't do elite. While this wouldn't affect me I can already see the crying: "Can't reach x mission before the week ends! Unfair!". I do like it, but I'm afraid many won't.

That is true and that could possibly happen. That's where the Mr Lock would be handy because people who couldn't get there in the first place wouldn't cry about it as much as I think, like syndicate weapons. Unfortunately no matter what change, people are going to be a little whiny about it. Just depends on how many people are. With nightwave, not a lot of people are vocalizing that they hate it because they're just leaving entirely. I get what you're saying though.

On 2019-04-12 at 2:27 PM, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

But nightwave's biggest problem isn't exactly implementation, even if it could have been better (which I'm sure will be mostly corrected for next season), it's something else.

I'm sure for the next season they will fix things, and honestly they could fix it for the better and everybody could be happy with it. From my experience with digital extremes they'll make it worse before they make it better. Or they just will take ages to fix it. How long have raids been gone? How long has it been since dark sectors disappeared? I am a little bitter towards digital extremes because lately it seems they focused odd or more pointless tasks than the important ones. However I hope they do turn a leaf with this one because it needs help in some fashion.

[FlusteredFerret]

Well I certainly get where OP is coming from, as far as the "boring and meaningless tasks" is concerned. Some of the dailies (and even weeklies) are pretty mind-numbing.

The old alerts used to be tied to specific nodes...particularly in the Void, as I recall.

I think it would be a major improvement if, instead of all these, "Kill X enemies with Y damage" tasks, they went back to making specific nodes available for Nightwave missions, which play out much the same as regular missions, but perhaps with added conditions, to make them more challenging. Plus the obvious related rewards.

I guess, kind of like Sorties...but easier.

Though for the Elite missions they should have normal Sortie difficulties.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

That is true and that could possibly happen. That's where the Mr Lock would be handy because people who couldn't get there in the first place wouldn't cry about it as much as I think, like syndicate weapons. 

Oh yes they will. If it in any way allows older players to get more nightwave standing than they can, they will flood the forums with their salty tears. That's what they've been doing since day 1 unfortunately.

[Kairo-Kuraku]

8 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Actually Kuva is the best reward we have. I never suggested using prime mods as a reward? I also sell primed mods and still don't need endo and again I'm sure I'm not alone, you want these rewards to appeal to everyone, I'm telling you right now that they don't. The best reward is kuva because it's irritating to gather and we always need more of it. 
Again with the assumption that "no one likes doing anything longer than 40 mins". You're trying to appeal to everyone remember, once again it isn't. There are plenty of people who like to do endurance runs, what about them? 

Yes I did miss that last bit sorry.

You wanted feedback, I'm giving you it. Don't get hostile because you don't like the feedback, that's how critique works.

I didn't mean to sound hostile. I did come off that way and I apologize. 

I only included the bit about prime mods cuz I was more of a prediction as to what you might have said or what people might think so I just threw it in there. Kuva is something I completely forgot about because I don't mess with riven mods too often because of Kuva. And these missions are necessary to appeal to everyone but they are to appeal to the majority. You can't please everyone, that's a prize that fails from the start. And you would find that I am appealing to more people than you think when it comes to the 20 min/wave thing. Besides if you want an endurance challenge you can do something else. 

[Kairo-Kuraku]

3 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Oh yes they will. If it in any way allows older players to get more nightwave standing than they can, they will flood the forums with their salty tears. That's what they've been doing since day 1 unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah that's fair.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, Kairo-Kuraku said:

I didn't mean to sound hostile. I did come off that way and I apologize. 

I only included the bit about prime mods cuz I was more of a prediction as to what you might have said or what people might think so I just threw it in there. Kuva is something I completely forgot about because I don't mess with riven mods too often because of Kuva. And these missions are necessary to appeal to everyone but they are to appeal to the majority. You can't please everyone, that's a prize that fails from the start. And you would find that I am appealing to more people than you think when it comes to the 20 min/wave thing. Besides if you want an endurance challenge you can do something else. 

All good

Unfortunately the sad truth is that just because you hear on the forums the people whining that Nightwave is tedious or too much work etc doesn't mean they're the only ones that need pleasing. It's an echo chamber, the silent majority is silent because currently they don't mind. Cater to the loud complainers at the moment and watch as another group pops up with complaints of a different nature. This makes it very hard to know who the true majority are and what that majority wants. Because we can hear what seems like the majority complaining at the moment, does not make it so.