DE: Heres a Baseline for a casual player as far as Nightwave...

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

they just post walls of text hoping that nobody will be able to do the basic math which shows that it could be done. 

Congrats. You just discredited your argument with an opinionated, insulting hand wave.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

24 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Congrats. You just discredited your argument with an opinionated, insulting hand wave.

Congratulations, you haven't actually shown that to be the case. Glance at the posts and see if there isn't anyone making a those claims, quoting people showing that it's possible to miss significant swaths of the event, and still complete it and dismissing that, dismissing other people's first hand accounts in a condescending way, and generally shifting the goalposts in any way that cathhes their fancy after being disproven. 

Of course I will take the opportunity to indicate that you just made an opinionated and insulting handwave, that you needed to break a sentence in order to justify.

Disprove the content, and then you can dispute the tone. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Disprove the content, and then you can dispute the tone. 

I already disproved the content, which is why you are continuing to ignore the simple questions I asked you in favor of doubling down on your lies:

1. Can you quote text from my posts that suggested I want players to get rewards they didn't earn, or that players should get equal rewards for less effort?
2. Given that we agree that a catch-up mechanic is fair provided players finish before the Season ends and that players should need to earn their rewards equally, why were you arguing with me about it?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The players, because the system is automated and requires no continued effort to run past implementation. You missed the point of what I said, though, which is that NW itself should reset weekly if DE wants players to play every week.

If DE allots 10 weeks, players should be allowed to play whenever they want as often/infrequently as they want through the whole 10 weeks. Season 1 did not support that. Season 2 will, thanks to its catch-up mechanic.

Objectively false.

Utterly irrelevant. Nobody here is claiming that NW was impossible to finish, so your personal anecdote serves no purpose in this discussion.

Gasp, you missed THREE WHOLE WEEKS. Lucky for you that left you with enough standing available to finish. That would not necessarily be true for players with schedules different from your own.

Sigh.

Didn't realize I could run Warframe on my phone while not having access to my PC at home.

TONS of games are just coded and released..without continual support.  So, I don't see how "an automated system that requires no continued effort to run past implementation" is "unfair to players".  That's literally just games.   At least Warframe HAS active support and ongoing updates.

NW updating weekly is asinine.  They have 5...count 'em, FIVE... EPISODES throughout the season, they update CHALLENGES weekly, in addition to daily challenges AND the rep from random encounters, WHICH, by the by, became more frequent throughout the season..  The season made SENSE.  It had a STORY, a FLOW...and you want them to take the flow of 2 and a half MONTHS and condense it down to a week?  Then REPEAT it?  It'll only cheapen the quality of what they put out.. (and if you think it WAS low quality, then...you have your reason why less is not more).

Love how your experiences are "facts", but everyone who doesn't agree is "objectively false", even if they have proof to back it up.

If your schedule does not allow you to play Warframe, and you're out of game for over a MONTH at a time...Then these PARTICULAR rewards are not for you.  Most other content in Warframe is already just sitting around, waiting to be farmed whenever.  This ONE PIECE of content in nightwave, the devs decided ... "Let's make this special.  People want trophies for working harder than others, or investing more time than others (Plenty of forum posts asked for it), so let's give people something to strive for!"

And then y'all just whine that you can't play once a month and get it just as easily as people who DO carve out the time in their schedules.  Also, fun fact, I run a business, a household, and have a newborn nephew I need to help take care of... I don't have "tons of free time" either, but I still made it work. If I hadn't, then it'd simply mean my IRL obligations are more important than a game, which is TRUE for ANYONE.  If it's not, you've more issues than the Devs have the ability to deal with and need to seek professional help because it's an unhealthy obsession at that point.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No mate. We do see what points are being made. But we disagree that they're valid. 

Look at the posts above. There is someone claiming that we couldn't have caught up if we missed half of the event. When presented with the fact that some people were able to get twice the required amount of standing in the available time, and that this means that it was entirely possible to get done, they just post walls of text hoping that nobody will be able to do the basic math which shows that it could be done. 

T

THANK YOU.  Was beginning to feel pinned to a corner here...  Maybe I'm not the best at communicating things by text, but I've been giving as much evidence as I can to try and back my points, and all I keep getting is insults in return...then THEY act like the victims and call ME the bad guy o-o   I really don't understand it.  Starting to think they're just trolls at this point.

3 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Buses and schedules, in my experience of 2 and 1/2 years (and i admit i'm ignorant about how it was before) were not a part of Warframe. I continued to play warframe till now because, no matter breaks or holidays, i could catch up anything at my leisure. Missed events gave a una tantum reward (like a weapon, once you have it, no need for more) that could later be re-obtained from baro.

Now there is the umbra forma, that is not una tantum, it's a performance resource that is limited (to 1 x player, currently), stackable (more are coming), consumable (the more you have, the better), but its specific bus runs for 2 months only. Meaning that a player that starts playing warframe today for its first time cannot be in pair with other players regarding this item. Meaning that missing 2 months of game will let anyone behind other players, with no catch up possibility. IF this is the current reality, it's revolutioning the pace of the game from "i play whenever i want and i can stay at par" to "i need to play these specific 2 months if i want to stay at par". And i guess this is the main reason why NW is making a portion of players turn their nose: for the first time the game is separating players with an exclusive performace reward. Before everyone was walking, fast or slowly, your decision, now you need to catch the bus.

I said "IF this is the current reality", because this is what i know with the current information that i have now. If, in my ignorance, DE already officially and clearly stated the opposite, that is to say, season 1 umbra forma is not lost forever,  then please link the source.

1. Umbra Forma is not, in any way shape or form, required to play -any- content in the game.  We were brokenly powerful long before it was released...heck, long before UMBRAL mods were even a thing.  Most of my builds don't even use 'em, and I clear most content just fine.  They're  more a "neat bonus" than a necessity to "keep up".

So, respectfully, I ask...don't put that false notion out there for new players to read and actually think they're "forever behind", because they're not.

We're talking about a game where, with any half-decent build and regular mods, you can clear 99.99999% of the content easily.  We're talking about a game where there are tons of posts about "We're too OP!  Game needs tougher endgame/enemies/bosses".  Umbral Forma is, if ANYTHING, like giving some performance enhancer to The Hulk.  Is he stronger? Maybe...but is it noticable to the enemy he could ALREADY one-shot?  Nope.

In any case, using the examples you laid out:  When a rare weapon from an event or Baro comes through, it's once in a blue moon.  Usually MORE than 10 weeks in rotation.  There are some things Baro hasn't brought in over a YEAR.  So, I don't see how the Umbral Forma, which is pretty much guaranteed once per season, is any different, or any more exclusive.  If anything, it's a safer bet it'll be there.

Most people on forums have been stating they haven't even used their Umbral Forma yet, myself included. No need.

Point is, it makes little to no difference in "staying on par".  Everything already dies to our non-umbra gear.  Dead is dead. Overkill is Overkill.

[DiabolusUrsus]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

TONS of games are just coded and released..without continual support.  So, I don't see how "an automated system that requires no continued effort to run past implementation" is "unfair to players".  That's literally just games.   At least Warframe HAS active support and ongoing updates.

Please try not to lose track of your own questions. Automation is not what makes the system unfair to players, it is unfair to players because it creates an artificial scarcity of available standing as the Season progresses.

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NW updating weekly is asinine.  They have 5...count 'em, FIVE... EPISODES throughout the season, they update CHALLENGES weekly, in addition to daily challenges AND the rep from random encounters, WHICH, by the by, became more frequent throughout the season..  The season made SENSE.  It had a STORY, a FLOW...and you want them to take the flow of 2 and a half MONTHS and condense it down to a week?  Then REPEAT it?  It'll only cheapen the quality of what they put out.. (and if you think it WAS low quality, then...you have your reason why less is not more).

Dude WTF are you even talking about. What makes you think episodes or story is relevant to this discussion at all?

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Love how your experiences are "facts", but everyone who doesn't agree is "objectively false", even if they have proof to back it up.

Your claim:

6 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Here you could pick up NW any time during the season and still make their deadlines. 

Which is objectively false. Here is proof:

There is 43,000 standing available from daily/weekly/elite acts.

For a standard 10 week Season, that totals to 430,000 standing.

Players need 300,000 to be able to finish (board the bus).

In Season 1 unearned standing is lost forever after each weekly reset, meaning total available standing decreases by 43,000 every week.

Therefore, if a player starts from week 5 that means only 5 x 43,000=215,000 standing from acts is remaining.

Are you seriously going to suggest that a player with limited playtime will be able to earn the remaining 85,000 standing needed to board the bus by capturing fugitives at 150 standing per spawn?

No. That's insane.

Therefore, the player cannot start at "any" point in the season and still finish.

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If your schedule does not allow you to play Warframe, and you're out of game for over a MONTH at a time...Then these PARTICULAR rewards are not for you.  Most other content in Warframe is already just sitting around, waiting to be farmed whenever.  This ONE PIECE of content in nightwave, the devs decided ... "Let's make this special.  People want trophies for working harder than others, or investing more time than others (Plenty of forum posts asked for it), so let's give people something to strive for!"

Again... WTF dude?

Where did DE say that NW rewards were exclusive or intended to be prestigious? Can you cite that please?

Because last I checked the official DE stance is that it was intended as a replacement for Alerts that would make it easier for players who can't always be online for Alerts to still earn rewards.

That would make Nightwave pretty much the exact opposite of what you are claiming here.

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And then y'all just whine that you can't play once a month and get it just as easily as people who DO carve out the time in their schedules.  Also, fun fact, I run a business, a household, and have a newborn nephew I need to help take care of... I don't have "tons of free time" either, but I still made it work. If I hadn't, then it'd simply mean my IRL obligations are more important than a game, which is TRUE for ANYONE.  If it's not, you've more issues than the Devs have the ability to deal with and need to seek professional help because it's an unhealthy obsession at that point.

The only person whining here is you, because you feel like I am somehow threatening your "exclusive" rewards that you earned.

News flash:

NW effort is measured in STANDING, not TIME. Therefore, it should stand to reason that if I earn the same amount of STANDING, I should get the same rewards, yeah?

All I want is for the same amount of total standing to be available all the way up until the end of the Season. For example, let's say I am stuck working heavy OT at work for weeks 1-8, but I get a week off in compensation. I start playing at Week 9, and I now have the time to play longer to make up for lost time.

In NW Season 1, I would be blocked from finishing because the standing for Weeks 1-8 would be gone forever.

In NW Season 2, I will still be able to catch up as long as I put in the time needed to complete the same number of Acts.

How does that hurt you in any way? Why is that unreasonable? As long as I finish grinding before the end of Week 10, haven't I earned the rewards fairly?

[DebrisFlow]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

1. Umbra Forma is not, in any way shape or form, required to play -any- content in the game.  We were brokenly powerful long before it was released...heck, long before UMBRAL mods were even a thing.  Most of my builds don't even use 'em, and I clear most content just fine.  They're  more a "neat bonus" than a necessity to "keep up".

So, respectfully, I ask...don't put that false notion out there for new players to read and actually think they're "forever behind", because they're not.

We're talking about a game where, with any half-decent build and regular mods, you can clear 99.99999% of the content easily.  We're talking about a game where there are tons of posts about "We're too OP!  Game needs tougher endgame/enemies/bosses".  Umbral Forma is, if ANYTHING, like giving some performance enhancer to The Hulk.  Is he stronger? Maybe...but is it noticable to the enemy he could ALREADY one-shot?  Nope.

But here we are, with tons of people raging and debating about the time consumption and limit to obtain that forma, so apparently for players it is important, irregardless of what you personally think. You don't care about it? Fine. Other players do. Feeling of completion, min-maxing, whatever they want. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

In any case, using the examples you laid out:  When a rare weapon from an event or Baro comes through, it's once in a blue moon.  Usually MORE than 10 weeks in rotation.  There are some things Baro hasn't brought in over a YEAR.  So, I don't see how the Umbral Forma, which is pretty much guaranteed once per season, is any different, or any more exclusive.  If anything, it's a safer bet it'll be there.

I explained the difference, i'll repeat it here since you didn't have the patience to read. The weapon is una tantum, once you got one there i no need for a second. Of formas you'll preferably want many -> as many as possible. And since there will be a hard cap of formas x player, there will be unhappy players unable to reach that hard cap if there is no catch up mechanic (IF this is the current reality). 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Most people on forums have been stating they haven't even used their Umbral Forma yet, myself included. No need.

Point is, it makes little to no difference in "staying on par".  Everything already dies to our non-umbra gear.  Dead is dead. Overkill is Overkill.

And existing in game is existing in game, and as such people will want it, for how little the difference may be (according to you), overkill or not. Again, feeling of completion, min-maxing, whatever they want. Maybe these most people are waiting for a 2nd or 3rd forma before doing their build? DE put it there for people to take it but, not to snob i. My post was there to point out that, for now, the system seems exclusive for who comes late, instead of giving equal opportunity like it has always been.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Which is objectively false. Here is proof:

There is 43,000 standing available from daily/weekly/elite acts.

For a standard 10 week Season, that totals to 430,000 standing.

Players need 300,000 to be able to finish (board the bus).

Your proof is demonstrably false. Here's proof: 

First week started midweek and was 40k.

Every subsequent week starting on a Sunday was 43k. 

Pretty sure that there were 11 of those not counting the last Sunday. 

Total possible standing from the challenges would have been 513k of which 300k was needed. 

And again the fact that people were able to make it to rank 60 shows that it was definitely possible to get twice as much standing as needed to get all the regular tiers, in the allotted time for the entire event. 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Are you seriously going to suggest that a player with limited playtime will be able to earn the remaining 85,000 standing needed to board the bus by capturing fugitives at 150 standing per spawn?

No. That's insane.

Therefore, the player cannot start at "any" point in the season and still finish.

Nobody is suggesting that a player who only plays 15 minutes a week for 5 weeks would be able to get to tier 30. That is however what you seem to be aiming for with the last line. 

It would be ridiculous if a player could start 5 minutes before the end of the season and be able to earn all of the rewards. Any player who is unable to play for large swaths of time (in your example 5 weeks) would definitely need to be able to play more than an average player if they expect to be able to catch up. This doesn't mean that the game has excluded them, but that their individual circumstances don't allow them to get all of the rewards, and that's entirety understandable. 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

All I want is for the same amount of total standing to be available all the way up until the end of the Season. For example, let's say I am stuck working heavy OT at work for weeks 1-8, but I get a week off in compensation. I start playing at Week 9, and I now have the time to play longer to make up for lost time.

Such a little thing? 

The developers have repeatedly included systems that are meant to encourage people to play regularly. You only want them to upend years of working on ways to get us to log in more often, because it would be convenient to a small number of people, especially the type to no-life the game, get to max standing claim all of the rewards and then screech about how crappy it is to have nothing to do in the game. 

And you think that's a good idea. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Your proof is demonstrably false. Here's proof: 

First week started midweek and was 40k.

Every subsequent week starting on a Sunday was 43k. 

Pretty sure that there were 11 of those not counting the last Sunday. 

Total possible standing from the challenges would have been 513k of which 300k was needed.

I removed the inconsistencies and used a standard 10-week Season to simplify the example, which was illustrating that available standing decreased over time, and dropped below 300k before the Season ended. Therefore, it was not possible to start at any time and still finish, as Taishin claimed.

Here, I'll show it again with your own numbers:

Week 1: 513k remaining, as you calculated.

Week 2: 513k - 40k = 470k remaining.

Week 3: 470k - 43k = 427k remaining.

Week 4: 427k - 43k = 384k remaining.

Week 5: 384k - 43k = 341k remaining.

Week 6: 341k - 43k = 298k remaining.

Which means the actual deadline for players with limited availability was week 5-6, not Week 11. While it might be possible to make up for small deficits through capturing Fugitives, that depends on their availability... which is already established as limited. Their prospects only get worse as the season progresses.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And again the fact that people were able to make it to rank 60 shows that it was definitely possible to get twice as much standing as needed to get all the regular tiers, in the allotted time for the entire event.

For the last damn time, this is completely irrelevant to the point I was making and illustrated yet again above.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nobody is suggesting that a player who only plays 15 minutes a week for 5 weeks would be able to get to tier 30. That is however what you seem to be aiming for with the last line. 

It would be ridiculous if a player could start 5 minutes before the end of the season and be able to earn all of the rewards. Any player who is unable to play for large swaths of time (in your example 5 weeks) would definitely need to be able to play more than an average player if they expect to be able to catch up. This doesn't mean that the game has excluded them, but that their individual circumstances don't allow them to get all of the rewards, and that's entirety understandable. 

You are being horrendously disingenuous.

I have been saying this entire time that if a player misses earlier weeks in the Season, they should be allowed to put in the extra time needed to catch-up toward the end of it. Obviously a player should not be able to spend 15 minutes a week for the last 3 weeks and still get to R30. The sum of effort required to finish should not change. However, as others on your own side of the debate have already pointed out, completing individual acts does not actually take much time. Therefore, players who aren't available for several weeks but then become available during a later week would experience no trouble cramming multiple weeks' worth of Acts into each week.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Such a little thing? 

The developers have repeatedly included systems that are meant to encourage people to play regularly. You only want them to upend years of working on ways to get us to log in more often,

WOW that BS stinks something awful.

DE actually removed the login streaks aimed to make sure players logged-in more often, and they relaxed the new login rewards systems to cut down on the time investment needed to get specific rewards. Players already have plenty of incentive to log-in regularly - daily standing caps, daily Syndicate missions, daily Sorties, cyclic events/invasion rewards, etc. None of DE's work would be in any way "upended" if NW doesn't add itself to those existing mechanics.

DE has a history of alleviating login pressure, not increasing it. Perhaps their motives are different from yours?

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

because it would be convenient to a small number of people, especially the type to no-life the game, get to max standing claim all of the rewards and then screech about how crappy it is to have nothing to do in the game. 

And you think that's a good idea. 

That's odd... I could have sworn I directly contradicted this strawman of yours in a previous response to you. Oh, that's right, I DID. Here you go:

On 2019-05-20 at 5:05 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

It makes sense to measure out standing to prevent players from finishing within the 1st week,

Wow, look at that. Tell me, what is it like being such a chronic liar?

There is a huge difference between players finishing too early and being blocked from finishing at all if they happen to miss enough weeks. The ONLY change that was needed was to make available standing accumulative, to prevent it from dropping below the threshold needed to finish before the Season officially ends. DE has already agreed to make this change.

Do you feel that a catch-up mechanic is unfair or a bad idea? If not, what the heck is your problem?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Wow, look at that. Tell me, what is it like being such a chronic liar?

I dunno, to do that I'd have to be you. 

Read what you quoted again. I didn't say that they'd do it in the first week, just that people doing what you suggested would burn themselves out. 

Nonsense that you make up all on your own doesn't reflect on me. It reflects on you, just as your baseless accusations do. 

Literally every single point you made in that post is just plain bogus and contrary to the evidence. Some are just nonsense, other involve trying to move goalposts in rather ridiculous ways that have already been addressed. 

I suspect that I've once again remembered why I do not usually see your posts. You're on your own.

Have a great day, Tenno. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I dunno, to do that I'd have to be you.

Funny, cuz you don't seem to be willing to provide any direct evidence of your claims when I ask you for it. Still waiting for you to quote the parts of my posts that lead you to claim that I wanted players to get rewards they didn't earn.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Read what you quoted again. I didn't say that they'd do it in the first week, just that people doing what you suggested would burn themselves out.

So players who use a catch-up mechanic because they don't play regularly... are going to burn themselves out? A+ logic, Einstein.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nonsense that you make up all on your own doesn't reflect on me. It reflects on you, just as your baseless accusations do.

Baseless, huh?

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Literally every single point you made in that post is just plain bogus and contrary to the evidence.

Really? So how does DE removing login streaks, making high-tier login rewards easier to get, and removing alerts suggest that DE is trying to create more incentive for players to log-in regularly? Do those changes somehow not effectively allow players to collect rewards while logging in less often?

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Some are just nonsense, other involve trying to move goalposts in rather ridiculous ways that have already been addressed.

Where did I move goalposts? Can you quote the exact text? I'm guessing no, seeing as how I never moved any goalposts on you.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I suspect that I've once again remembered why I do not usually see your posts. You're on your own.

Have a great day, Tenno. 

Probably because you can't actually answer the simple questions I ask you without discrediting yourself. Same to you!

[Dama73]

I just want to add my pennies worth to this topic.

The way the challenges were in season one didnt bother me, the issue for me is that due to things going on in my life, I dont get to play warframe that often any more, I would simply like the option to be able to earn all the rewards from season one, even if it takes me a while to do so.