Peacemakers are a bad ability- because I can’t use them on half the games relevant content?

[Pixues]

20 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

It's almost like AoE frames are designed to clear out the chaff and Mesa, Saryn, old Ember, etc, are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

The shortsightedness of people on these forums is frankly astounding. I'll be here to remind people of what they caused if and when these frames get nerfed and the game reverts to "nobody matters but tanks and stealth," except with the addition of boss killer meta frames.

Basically, if you're going to champion that we nerf Mesa, you'd better be damn well prepared for Chroma, Volt, Harrow and anyone else that's part of the Eidolon meta, as well as frames like Rhino, Inaros and Nezha who will dominate the survival/defense meta after those others are butchered by the nerf bat.

Oh, and Atlas. But uh... People haven't figured out just how silly Atlas can be yet. So I'll give you all time to catch up on that one.

There is a difference in being good at clearing trash mobs.

And wiping the entire map of playable content. 

There is a difference in being good at clearing trash mobs.

And not having to put in any effort in clearing trash mobs.

There is a difference in being good at clearing trash mobs.

And being designed so badly, people can afk while clearing trash mobs.

(old ember). 

Mesa can be nerfed and still be better at killing trash mobs than other warframes. It just doesn't have to be so absurd.

[Sharkgoblin]

On 2019-06-09 at 7:12 PM, (PS4)FK2P said:

he wolf of Saturn six

 uhm, i used mesa a couple of times against awoo and i've been able to target him with peacemaker

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2019-06-09 at 12:39 PM, Ksaero said:

She does, but not more than Saryn or Equinox and Octavia

FTFY 

That said this thread is full of hyperbolic statements about Mesa. Mesa is fine as is. A dps frame, with enough draw backs as is. No more OP than Ash, Saryn, Octavia, Gara, Nova or Equinox. Or any of these OP aoe weapons we have. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2019-06-09 at 12:33 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Mesa needs a nerf more than anything

No she doesn't. She isn't pre ember or pre Ash nerf level by any stretch of the imagination. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[XaoGarrent]

9 hours ago, Pixues said:

Blah blah blah

Half the frames in the game can do this now to some degree. You're unable to see the forest among the trees.

[Pixues]

37 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Half the frames in the game can do this now to some degree. You're unable to see the forest among the trees.

This is a thread about Mesa and you happened to mention old Ember. I wasn't about to mention every broken power on every warframe. I know a lot of them are badly designed. But at least you seem to agree. 

[XaoGarrent]

3 hours ago, Pixues said:

This is a thread about Mesa and you happened to mention old Ember. I wasn't about to mention every broken power on every warframe. I know a lot of them are badly designed. But at least you seem to agree. 

People like you are why circular nerfing happens. Please stop participating in balance or design discussion unless you intend to actually discuss the topic at hand properly, including all relevant points regarding how any one point of balance fits into the larger game. You are not helping anything by doing what you are doing.

[Pizzarugi]

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Half the frames in the game can do this now to some degree. You're unable to see the forest among the trees.

Half the frames? The only ones I see being this crazy OP where you only need to press 1 button to clear entire rooms fall on 4 frames: Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, and Volt. People want to try and put Octavia on the list, but at least her Mallet has limited range, line of sight, and actually requires a few seconds of being shot at before it can be threatening. Either way, 4 frames out of 40 is hardly what I consider to be half. These 4 can do what an entire team of players should be doing together, on their own. Last I checked, this is a co-op game, not a "have 3 players vacuum the loot while I turn this game into a walking simulator".

On 2019-06-10 at 4:47 PM, XaoGarrent said:

Basically, if you're going to champion that we nerf Mesa, you'd better be damn well prepared for Chroma, Volt, Harrow and anyone else that's part of the Eidolon meta, as well as frames like Rhino, Inaros and Nezha who will dominate the survival/defense meta after those others are butchered by the nerf bat.

Yeah, and? Are you suggesting DE shouldn't bother trying to balance this game, because they might also go after other frames? The fact they would do this tells me they're finally going to put some actual effort into balancing this game like they should've done a very long time ago.

Just gonna put this out here, but tanky frames are nowhere near on the same league as press-4-to-win frames. You can tank all the bullets you want, but you will never trivialize the game for yourself and your teammates by deleting rooms with one press of a button. 20+ enemies killing you via the 1000 cuts method is still more threatening than the 20 who got 1shot by your 4th ability again and again and again. That's not to say they shouldn't be nerfed, but they're far from being broken.

And you know what? If they do nerf the "eidolon meta" frames, I'm cool with that. It sure would be nice to take my favorite frame like Nidus, Loki, or Nyx when looking for teams rather than being forced into a narrow grouping of frames I don't care for. And I'm sure people who play the press-4-to-win frames only because they're OP nuke frames would appreciate playing their own favorites now that they're all on an equal killing field.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)FK2P]

41 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Half the frames? The only ones I see being this crazy OP where you only need to press 1 button to clear entire rooms fall on 4 frames: Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, and Volt. People want to try and put Octavia on the list, but at least her Mallet has limited range, line of sight, and actually requires a few seconds of being shot at before it can be threatening. Either way, 4 frames out of 40 is hardly what I consider to be half. These 4 can do what an entire team of players should be doing together, on their own. Last I checked, this is a co-op game, not a "have 3 players vacuum the loot while I turn this game into a walking simulator".

Yeah, and? Are you suggesting DE shouldn't bother trying to balance this game, because they might also go after other frames? The fact they would do this tells me they're finally going to put some actual effort into balancing this game like they should've done a very long time ago.

Just gonna put this out here, but tanky frames are nowhere near on the same league as press-4-to-win frames. You can tank all the bullets you want, but you will never trivialize the game for yourself and your teammates by deleting rooms with one press of a button. 20+ enemies killing you via the 1000 cuts method is still more threatening than the 20 who got 1shot by your 4th ability again and again and again. That's not to say they shouldn't be nerfed, but they're far from being broken.

And you know what? If they do nerf the "eidolon meta" frames, I'm cool with that. It sure would be nice to take my favorite frame like Nidus, Loki, or Nyx when looking for teams rather than being forced into a narrow grouping of frames I don't care for. And I'm sure people who play the press-4-to-win frames only because they're OP nuke frames would appreciate playing their own favorites now that they're all on an equal killing field.

Absolutely agree, so many frames are just cut out of the bosses and new content.

[XaoGarrent]

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Half the frames?

This is your entire problem. Right here. People like you have a very narrow view of the game's balance.

Yes, half the frames. Maybe 1/3rd, but the rest bring something super special to the fight so they still count. There's a whole layer of frames that come close to the ones you listed, some that even have the capability to outdamage in total, even if not clear the "trash" as fast. That's the point of bringing up Chroma, as he's completely on the opposite end of the spectrum yet super meta where he applies... And eventually he's going to get a rework to fix his design issues. Because being super strong doesn't absolve him having massive design problems, this is how the Saryn rework happened.

But it's more nuanced than Chroma makes it seem, he's just the most obvious example. The game's balance is a massive web, that exists in layers. There's a whole layer slightly below and right next to the one with the likes of Saryn and Equinox, and then there's a layer under that one that's a bit tankier but does less area damage. And another under that one and off to a different side that brings some useful utility to a team. This isn't a 2D affair, with a linear balance dynamic. There's a reason that Brozime places the likes of Ivara in top tier with Saryn and Equinox. She's literally got everything in the game but survivability. If you count her cloak, she's even got that, making her absolutely all encompassing. Volt likewise is actually loaded, just in a more straightforward way, hence why he's got a bad damage type. 

Or take harrow, for instance. He isn't even in the same dimension as, say, Equinox, but he's still balanced in a way that all his tools are competitive, at least where they can apply. He has massive single target or narrow area damage capability, and decently good support which is largely why he's not able to clear as well. If we was, he'd be the thing everyone was complaining about, because why play anything other than Harrow if he was top damage in average instanced missions, supports better, *and* is part of the hunter meta? Saryn is all in on Damage- Even her debuffs increase damage- Equinox's support is flaky and sub par. Harrow still belches damage, through his massive gun buffs, but he also gives energy, invulnerability, crits for his WHOLE TEAM, can buff his attack speed through the roof which does more than just increase damage, and leech shields. Give him the right gun and he can already do area damage adequately, so why would you ever play Saryn or Equinox if they couldn't do better?

You have no idea how the frames actually compare, and you're trying to make adjustments on the wrong side of the balance equation. You don't realize that the frames are already really balanced against each other, and you've become a man with a hammer swinging at everything as if it was nails. Nezha is already just a better Ember, this is precisely the doing of people like you, and this pattern will repeat itself until we're back in the days of "only Rhino and Loki matters" just with more and different frames. All this because you're only looking at one half of the balance equation. Tank metas are always the ultimate resting place, because it's usually where the game ends up when the devs realize that they've been approaching the problem with the wrong strategy, after they've (at least in aggregate) ruined every single other class and now they've got nothing else to smash with a bat.

The enemy factions are what needs adjusting at this point. The scaling, is a big part of what needs adjustment at this point (but also enemy tools and gimmicks need work). Most of our frames are very competitive, it's just they're competitive with each other. The devs spent about a year attempting to get the frames better oriented against each other and improve their mechanical functionality (which produces unavoidable power creep if done after the launch of the game), they succeeded by a surprising margin, and now you want to start taking a sledgehammer to a lose thumbtack, while there's a crumbling, dilapidated wall falling down behind it. It's utterly ridiculous.

"Let's nerf this frame we just worked on a few months ago, and ignore the fact we've done almost nothing to adjust enemies since basically the game's launch."

The enemies in the game are utterly boring and their scaling is completely broken in about half a dozen different ways, IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, which is something that effects all the frames in the game, oh but Saryn is the problem for sure.

Edited June 12, 2019 by XaoGarrent
So many errors...

[Son_of_Anubis]

OP post explains fully why Mesa/Saryn players are obnoxious as hell 

That is the point as to why Peace Makers don't work on bosses or eidolons then she would make the game more easy. I don't know why most Mesa players believe just pressing 4 on Mesa is the only way to play her. 

Anyhow back to lurking great thread though OP made me laugh. 

[Pizzarugi]

38 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

"Let's nerf this frame we just worked on a few months ago, and ignore the fact we've done almost nothing to adjust enemies since basically the game's launch."

The enemies in the game are utterly boring and their scaling is completely broken in about half a dozen different ways, IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, which is something that effects all the frames in the game, oh but Saryn is the problem for sure.

And what do you think is going to happen if we balance enemy scaling? Do you think people are, all of a sudden, going to stop abusing nuke frames? People who constantly suggest this solution only think as far as this point, while ignoring why people play frames like Saryn or Mesa. They are both capable of clearing entire rooms in less than a second with only one press of a button, making them among the most efficient frames in the game to breeze through missions and most game content, irrespective if they or their teammates actually enjoy it. You can argue about Harrow and Chroma all you want, but neither of them can destroy entire rooms like those two can. There's no contest.

And you want to balance enemy scaling, making them easier to kill en masse for these broken frames? There's no way this should even be considered unless these problem frames get nerfed alongside the balance pass.

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And what do you think is going to happen if we balance enemy scaling? Do you think people are, all of a sudden, going to stop abusing nuke frames? People who constantly suggest this solution only think as far as this point, while ignoring why people play frames like Saryn or Mesa. They are both capable of clearing entire rooms in less than a second with only one press of a button, making them among the most efficient frames in the game to breeze through missions and most game content, irrespective if they or their teammates actually enjoy it. You can argue about Harrow and Chroma all you want, but neither of them can destroy entire rooms like those two can. There's no contest.

And you want to balance enemy scaling, making them easier to kill en masse for these broken frames? There's no way this should even be considered unless these problem frames get nerfed alongside the balance pass.

You've made some pretty horrible assumptions in this post, and they betray your bias pretty badly.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, XaoGarrent said:

You've made some pretty horrible assumptions in this post, and they betray your bias pretty badly.

Yes. I hate having my game trivialized by people who think they're cool by mashing 4 and turning my game into a walking simulator. Couldn't you tell? 😛

Also, it sure would be nice of you to respond properly. Nothing you said refuted what I said about "muh enemy scaling" not making the press-4-to-win abuse go away.

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Yes. I hate having my game trivialized by people who think they're cool by mashing 4 and turning my game into a walking simulator. Couldn't you tell? 😛

Also, it sure would be nice of you to respond properly. Nothing you said refuted what I said about "muh enemy scaling" not making the press-4-to-win abuse go away.

So you admit that you're reacting emotionally, and not thinking.

Which is why you should be disregarded in any serious balance discussion.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, XaoGarrent said:

So you admit that you're reacting emotionally, and not thinking.

Which is why you should be disregarded in any serious balance discussion.

Sure dude, if that's the excuse you want to run with not answering my questions I asked two posts ago.

Still waiting to get your input as to how fixing enemy scaling will suddenly resolve the issue of press-4-to-win abuse, on account of them being the most efficient frames to grind through missions and resources.

[Pizzarugi]

On 2019-06-13 at 2:15 AM, XaoGarrent said:

-Snip-

Giving me a simple answer to my question earlier isn't talking in circles. I want to know how balancing enemy scaling is going to miraculously make press-4-to-win frames not a popular pick among players who want to rush through missions at impossible speeds or kill absurd number of enemies to farm resources.

[XaoGarrent]

9 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Giving me a simple answer to my question earlier isn't talking in circles. I want to know how balancing enemy scaling is going to miraculously make press-4-to-win frames not a popular pick among players who want to rush through missions at impossible speeds or kill absurd number of enemies to farm resources.

You want a simple answer to a complicated problem. You know how wrongheaded that is?

...

Actually, it's not even that. You want what you want to the exclusion of reality. This is why going into detail is a waste of time with you, I could go on at length about the state of the game and where the balance problems are rooted, but I'd be wasting my breath. But my hope is that by not feeding into this behavior, maybe just for once, you might actually go back and learn something.

I'm probably expecting too much.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

You want a simple answer to a complicated problem. You know how wrongheaded that is?

...

Actually, it's not even that. You want what you want to the exclusion of reality. This is why going into detail is a waste of time with you, I could go on at length about the state of the game and where the balance problems are rooted, but I'd be wasting my breath. But my hope is that by not feeding into this behavior, maybe just for once, you might actually go back and learn something.

I'm probably expecting too much.

You're the one who refuses to answer my question and resort to insults, yet you accuse me of speaking out of emotion.

Okay then.

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

You're the one who refuses to answer my question and resort to insults, yet you accuse me of speaking out of emotion.

Okay then.

I'm sorry you feel that you've been insulted.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

On 2019-06-11 at 6:23 PM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

No she doesn't. She isn't pre ember or pre Ash nerf level by any stretch of the imagination. 

Extremely poorly thought examples. Mesa will UTTERLY outkill pre-Ember and pre-Ash any day. Aimbot coupled with absurd damage is simply too overpowered. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Extremely poorly thought examples. Mesa will UTTERLY outkill pre-Ember and pre-Ash any day. Aimbot coupled with absurd damage is simply too overpowered. 

Hahahah that's straight BullS#&$! Max range Ember doesn't require LoS. And max range Pre nerf Ash instantly killed up to 20 enemies no matter the level while invisible and the enemies were then invulnerable to everyone else. And with max melee speed  I could kill 60 enemies with 3 clicks with in 4 sec. with pre nerf Ash-hole. Lol come on. Mesa would have nother to aim at. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Max range Ember doesn't require LoS.

Her WoF can have 10000 meter range and it still will never outkill Mesa on higher level because the damage is very subpar.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

And max range Pre nerf Ash instantly killed up to 20 enemies no matter the level while invisible

Ash could never instantly kill regardless of level with Blade Storm. He deals Finisher damage with guaranteed bleeds, yes, but not enough to wipe out level 130+ enemies in one go. His damage remains exactly the same, yet you don't see him one-shotting foes with Blade Storm.

Again, Mesa is the best quick killer. Saryn still holds the tittle of Queen of Genocide, though. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2019-06-12 at 8:18 PM, Pizzarugi said:

press-4-to-win frames

Mesa is not a "press -4-to-win" frame. As you are not gonna just press 4 against anything on Pluto and win. That's straight disingenuous. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Again, Mesa is the best quick killer.

Nope. CL Ash (especially against hvys)can still kill regardless of level instantly. Mesa is exceptional at killing trash and that's about it. Her PMs scale horribly.  In fact that same trash can instantly drop her. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82