There is no benefit/incentive/reason to kill a Rank 5 Lich over a Rank 1 Lich

[Jarriaga]

When you attempt to kill your Lich and you fail because you don't have the correct Parazon mods, it ranks up. This in turn makes it harder to kill and increases the difficulty of Kuva Thrall missions.

What do I gain by risking leveling up my Lich in a Parazon attack (Other than speeding-up the process) instead of letting it kill me and go away until I'm done farming all the Thralls I need for an extremely easy kill? What is the benefit of killing a Rank 5 Lich instead of killing a Rank 1 Lich?

Normally, higher difficulty is rewarded with better loot or additional benefits not available in lower difficulties. But here, it's all the same. Rank 1 or Rank 5, your Lich gives the same weapon, and returns the same amount of stolen loot. This seems like a design flaw to me as it opens the door for outright avoid killing your Lich for the benefit of convenience until you're ready to kill it.

My feedback is based squarely on the following scenario:  Let's say you have farmed all Thralls with a Rank 1 Lich and you know the 3 Requiem mods you need. You fight it once, the first Requiem was right, but the second one failed, so you now know you only have to invert the last 2 Requiem mods for a guaranteed kill while your Lich is now rank 2.

Under this scenario, you have completed your Thrall farm and know the exact order of Requiem mods that will kill your Lich. Meaning, it's down to choosing to kill your Lich now, or willingly rank it up.

What reason do I have to willingly use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt? What do you get out of a Rank 5 Lich kill that is not available in a Rank 1 Lich kill after the first time you get the achievement?

"Faster murmur progress" is not a payout that makes any distinction between what you get out of a Rank 1 Lich and a Rank 5 Lich. It only speeds-up the process. It doesn't give you a reason to actively pursue a Rank 5 Lich.

Why not incentivize Lich ranking by adding a 1.2x - 2x multiplier to stolen loot when returned based on your Lich's rank? How about adding additional vanquish options that are only available for Rank 5 Liches such as 20,000 Kuva instead of the weapon? What if the Kuva Lich weapon bonus was higher or had multiple bonuses if harvested from a Rank 5 Lich? What if you could capture a Rank 5 Lich to use it as Kuva Battery you can harvest in your Orbiter once per day, with the amount of Kuva increasing with the number of captured rank 5 Liches?

This could also help with future-proofing. At some point, DE, we will eventually run out of Lich weapons and Ephemera to farm. It is inevitable. At that moment, we will have few reasons (If any) to engage with the system because we would be getting nothing out of it. Content longevity and sustainability has been an issue in WF. Game modes and boss battles lose value once you farm their respective pools. I even made a feedback thread about this some months ago with regards to lack of incentives to repeat content because of "one and done" rewards. If you are looking to get people to continue to engage with the Lich system, there has to be something that holds its own value after the reward pool has been exhausted.

Boosting earned loot (As an incentive) alongside adding more vanquish options other than kill/convert when we defeat a Rank 5  Lich would give us reasons to farm and rank up Liches after their reward pools have been exhausted. It is important for the system's longevity.

 

*****************Disclaimer for those who say I am just scared of my Lich*****************

I actually want DE to buff Rank 5 Liches to around pre-nerf Wolf levels.

"Increase Kuva Lich battle difficulty and stats to around pre-nerf Wolf levels. Liches are disappointingly weak for what they are and what they are meant to be. As pointed out by Mogamu, their life is only prolonged due to the RNG layers that are involved, which are only there to mask how easy the actual battle is. A Rank 5 Lich fight should be taxing on you as a player. It should demand endurance from you. It should not be over in 1 minute. On that note, the Lich should fight back against its doom during the final health bar depletion. The final Parazon stab would feel a lot more dynamic and full of tension if it had a minigame you can fail such as a button-mashing contest or a quick-time event. If you fail it, you don't die, but your Lich runs away. It becomes a lot more engaging that just depleting their life from a safe distance and only getting close for a 1-button kill."

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Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Drachnyn]

The incentive right now is faster murmur progress through failed lich attempts.

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

What do you mean no incentive? You don't like seeing your little angel come up in the world? How cruel..

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The incentive right now is faster murmur progress through failed lich attempts.

By what? 5-6 murmurs? Not worth the increased difficulty.

Also, that would be an incentive for attempting to kill it, not an incentive for actively pursuing a higher rank on your Lich.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[ebrl]

This is the endgame of DE being too scared of letting players fail for too long: now people are terrified of leveling up their liches despite being perfectly capable of handling the content, because they might die once or twice in a mission, which has no impact whatsoever on absolutely anything.

Congratulations, DE, you have designed yourselves into a corner with your coddling.

[Jarriaga]

38 minutes ago, ebrl said:

This is the endgame of DE being too scared of letting players fail for too long: now people are terrified of leveling up their liches despite being perfectly capable of handling the content, because they might die once or twice in a mission, which has no impact whatsoever on absolutely anything.

Congratulations, DE, you have designed yourselves into a corner with your coddling.

Mind you, I actually recommended for DE to buff Rank 5 Liches to around pre-nerf Wolf levels.

"Increase Kuva Lich battle difficulty and stats to around pre-nerf Wolf levels. Liches are disappointingly weak for what they are and what they are meant to be. As pointed out by Mogamu, their life is only prolonged due to the RNG layers that are involved, which are only there to mask how easy the actual battle is. A Rank 5 Lich fight should be taxing on you as a player. It should demand endurance from you. It should not be over in 1 minute. On that note, the Lich should fight back against its doom during the final health bar depletion. The final Parazon stab would feel a lot more dynamic and full of tension if it had a minigame you can fail such as a button-mashing contest or a quick-time event. If you fail it, you don't die, but your Lich runs away. It becomes a lot more engaging that just depleting their life from a safe distance and only getting close for a 1-button kill."

I am currently fine with ranking up my Lich because Rank 5 Kuva Thrall missions are fun. I've been asking for a higher difficulty.

But then it hit me: Other than my personal enjoyment, there is no benefit for doing this. It's not efficient. If all I'm doing is farming, then why make it intentionally more difficult for me when I'm getting the same net result out of it?

And I see many posts here from people who just avoid fighting their Liches or let themselves be killed so they can avoid ranking it up.

There's another game we can use a direct example of this: Anthem. At launch, people only played the easiest stronghold because the harder strongholds gave the same rewards for more effort.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jujuwa]

I'm not terrified of the difficulty raise, i just don't see the point of ranking it up for S#&$ and giggles.

[dogbus]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

By what? 5-6 murmurs? Not worth the increased difficulty.

On 2019-11-05 at 10:52 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Testing a Requiem on a Lich now advances Murmur progress by roughly 10x more than a Thrall on average

Testing a requiem helps narrow down the possible combinations required to kill it, from 19 (without knowing the correct Murmurs) brute force attempts down to 4 (knowing which, but not the order). 

Also, the current incentive to do something about your lich is so others can have their lich spawn...of course thats a rather heated debate until theres a way for other squad members to despawn your lich without your input. Failed attempts also increase the territory of the lich, for more options of tilesets to have your loot stolen on.

And don't forget that "kill a level 5 lich" achievement too.

It's also a partial system, as we do not have railjacks yet. You can't expect a complete package with only half the parts.

[Xardis]

I would want to see more ranks, like 20, or 30 max, with ending up with mission difficulty being 130 lvl, and each rank would also increase the weapon bonus.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, Vaeldious said:

Testing a requiem helps narrow down the possible combinations required to kill it, from 19 (without knowing the correct Murmurs) brute force attempts down to 4 (knowing which, but not the order). 

That would be an incentive for attempting to kill it by making the process faster, not an incentive for actively pursuing a higher rank on your Lich. 

3 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Also, the current incentive to do something about your lich is so others can have their lich spawn... of course thats a rather heated debate until theres a way for other squad members to despawn your lich without your input

What does that have to do with your own Lich's rank?

5 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Failed attempts also increase the territory of the lich, for more options of tilesets to have your loot stolen on.

That sounds to me like another reason to avoid ranking up your Lich if there's no payout for it.

6 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

And don't forget that "kill a level 5 lich" achievement too.

You get it once. What do you get from your next Rank 5 Lich that is not available when killing a Rank 1 Lich?

7 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

It's also a partial system, as we do not have railjacks yet. You can't expect a complete package with only half the parts.

 We don't know if they are planning something with regards to longevity and incentives so you can be encouraged to rank up your Lich. Hence why I'm submitting the feedback.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, Xardis said:

I would want to see more ranks, like 20, or 30 max, with ending up with mission difficulty being 130 lvl, and each rank would also increase the weapon bonus.

Indeed. Higher Ranks should result in better bonuses at the bare minimum.

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Jujuwa said:

I'm not terrified of the difficulty raise

Same boat. I actually want them to be harder if you read my post above yours.

11 minutes ago, Jujuwa said:

i just don't see the point of ranking it up for S#&$ and giggles.

Indeed.

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

That would be an incentive for attempting to kill it by making the process faster, not an incentive for actively pursuing a higher rank on your Lich. 

You dont have one without the other: the "risk" is a higher level lich, the payout is faster murmur progress.

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

You dont have one without the other: the "risk" is a higher level lich, the payout is faster murmur progress.

I'll put another way.

Let's say you have farmed all Thralls with a Rank 1 Lich and you know the 3 Requiem mods you need. You fight it once, the first Requiem was right, but the second one failed, so you now know you only have to invert the last 2 Requiem mods for a guaranteed kill while your Lich is now rank 2.

What reason do I have to actively use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt?

"Faster murmur progress" is not a payout that makes any distinction between what you get out of a Rank 1 Lich and a Rank 5 Lich. It only speeds-up the process. It doesn't give you a reason to actively pursue a Rank 5 Lich.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[ebrl]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

"Faster murmur progress" is not a payout that makes any distinction between what you get out of a Rank 1 Lich and a Rank 5 Lich.

That wraps it up, boys. OP isn't interested in a honest discussion, nothing more to see here.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, ebrl said:

That wraps it up, boys. OP isn't interested in a honest discussion, nothing more to see here.

I'm sorry, but how does that mean I am not interested in an honest discussion?

Please enlighten me, because I can not see where you're coming from unless you help me understand you. You made an earlier post saying I was afraid of ranking my Lich up. I pointed out a post in which I actively want for DE to buff them because they don't feel hard enough for what they should be. But that's a point about personal enjoyment, not a distinction based on a ranking mechanic.

Now you're saying I'm not interested in discussion without even addressing my earlier response to you, which contradicts your perception.

I'm throwing you an olive branch here, so please don't say that - I - am the one not interested in discussion if you are the one choosing not to engage.

What do you get out of a Rank 5 Lich that is not available in a Rank 1 Lich?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Drachnyn]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

What reason do I have to actively use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt?

The reason is that you'll get to that combination faster than with just thralls.

• Lich attempts give you roughly 10 murmur progress on each attempt, so that's like 40 thralls you have to kill less
• It helps you figure out the order on the way to your 3 murmur unveils.

You're trying to see failed lich attempts for murmur progress and the lich ranking up as 2 seperate things. But they're not.

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The reason is that you'll get to that combination faster than with just thralls.

• Lich attempts give you roughly 10 murmur progress on each attempt, so that's like 40 thralls you have to kill less
• It helps you figure out the order on the way to your 3 murmur unveils.

You're trying to see failed lich attempts for murmur progress and the lich ranking up as 2 seperate things. But they're not.

Re-read and analyze my response to you again. I am giving you an example in which you have completed your Thrall farm and you are ready to kill a Rank 2 Lich because you know the correct combination (1 failed attempt with the second Requiem mod, so you know now you only need to invert mods 2 and 3 for a guaranteed kill).

Again: Under that scenario, what reason do I have to willingly use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

Re-read and analyze my response to you again. I am giving you an example in which you have completed your Thrall farm and you are ready to kill a Rank 2 Lich because you know the correct combination (1 failed attempt with the second Requiem mod, so you know now you only need to invert mods 2 and 3 for a guaranteed kill).

Again: Under that scenario, what reason do I have to actively use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt?

That example makes no sense. You took the slower and easier route to your murmur farm instead of the fast route. You already walked the slower path and then wondered why going back and then going the faster route aswell is not faster.

Also:

vor einer Stunde schrieb Jarriaga:

What do I gain by risking leveling up my Lich in a Parazon attack instead of letting it kill me and go away until I'm done farming all the Thralls I need for an extremely easy kill?

Your absurdly contrived example is not what you were going for in your initial post. In your inital post you are talking about attempting the lich while still thrall farming. What situation are you going for? Because in your OP there is absolutely a point in attempting the lich for murmur progress because you're still farming thralls, in your new contrived example you already missed the point at which attempting the lich would have sped your progress up.

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

That example makes no sense. You took the slower and easier route to your murmur farm instead of the fast route. You already walked the slower path and then wondered why going back and then going the faster route aswell is not faster.

So you have no response then? The way or the speed I got there is not relevant because this is not about how fast or how long it takes to kill your Lich. This is about why would you choose to kill a Rank 5 Lich instead of a Rank 1 Lich. Ergo, what reason is there to not kill it as soon as you know the combination instead of willingly pursuing ranking it to 5.

If you can't address the topic at hand using the example provided then it confirms there is no benefit.

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Your absurdly contrived example is not what you were going for in your initial post. In your inital post you are talking about attempting the lich while still thrall farming. What situation are you going for? Because in your OP there is absolutely a point in attempting the lich for murmur progress because you're still farming thralls, in your new contrived example you already missed the point at which attempting the lich would have sped your progress up.

Fair enough. I'll edit it the post to make it as clear as possible that this is not about how long it takes to farm Thralls.

It's exclusively about what you get out of killing a Rank 5 Lich vs. killing a Rank 1 Lich.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Kontrollo]

I'm only talking for myself here. Things I gain when failing and ranking up my lich:

• one step toward knowing the right mods to bring, by means of elimination
• free murmurs
• higher level missions
• the lich is less of a push-over
• more options where to go next

 

For me, it's a no-brainer to do it, really.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Kontrollo
forgot the free murmurs

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

So you have no response then? The way or the speed I got there is not relevant because this is now about how fast or how long it takes to kill your Lich. This is about why would you choose to kill a Rank 5 Lich vs. a Rank 1 Lich.

If you can't address the topic at hand using the example provided then it confirms there is no benefit.

Just because you dont care about the benefit of getting your lich kill faster doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Because for me attempting lich absolutely makes sense because i want to progress through the murmurs faster.

So to summarize: you refuse to acknowledge the general advantage of attempting your lich in any normal situation that isnt deliberately constructed to not have an advantage anymore and you dont even acknowledge your personal liking of the having higher level missions. I am not sure anyone can help you at that point

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

So to summarize: you refuse to acknowledge the general advantage of attempting your lich in any normal situation that isnt deliberately constructed to not have an advantage anymore and you dont even acknowledge your personal liking of the having higher level missions. I am not sure anyone can help you at that point

I already made the clarification that it's not about what you get by attempting to kill it, but actually killing it at Rank 1 vs. killing it at Rank 5. If that's where you were coming from then yes, speeding it up is a benefit. I acknowledge that. If I was not clear enough in the opening post then that's on me.

But I have clarified, several times now, in subsequent posts, that it is not about that. It's about what you get out of killing it based on its rank.

So again, what reason do I have to willingly use the wrong Requiem mod combination all the way until my Lich is rank 5 instead of just killing it on my next attempt? What do I get from a Rank 5 Lich kill that I don't get from a Rank 1 Lich kill?

I stand by my observation: If you can't address the topic at hand using the example provided then it confirms there is no benefit for killing a Rank 5 Lich over a Rank 1. I see this as a problem.

[Jarriaga]

24 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I'm only talking for myself here. Things I gain when failing and ranking up my lich:

• one step toward knowing the right mods to bring, by means of elimination
• free murmurs
• more options where to go next

 

For me, it's a no-brainer to do it, really.

Please re-read the opening post and my subsequent posts.

Assuming you already know the correct combination that will kill your Lich at Rank 2 because you completed your Thrall farm, fought it at Rank 1 and got the first mod right and only need to swap 2 with 3 for a guaranteed kill, then what would be the benefit of willingly choosing to use the wrong mod combination so your Lich ranks up instead of killing it outright in your next fight using the correct combination?

I deleted the personal enjoyment factor out of your post for a single reason: The vast majority of players, when given the choice to obtain the exact same reward in an easy or a hard difficulty, will choose the easier route. Anthem is proof of this.

I do enjoy the harder Rank 5 Lich fight myself and that's why I've been ranking them up, but that's because I'm one of those players who have been asking for harder content for awhile. But that's not relevant to extrinsic rewards for the same reason there's no reason to go past a C rotation beyond personal enjoyment.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Please re-read the opening post and my subsequent posts. ...

Please reread my post. This is my personal opinion, not something up for debate.