Friendship doors and Liches.

[Yasha-7HS]

As a measure to protect all players in said game, I'm not releasing the video that I have of this situation because I can't remove their names (my edited video with the names blocked refuses to render)

I was just in a game with quite the perfectly placed Friendship door, and a teammate who didn't want to kill their Lich. Now, this game can be considered griefing, as one of the four of us wanted to proceed to extraction, and the other three (myself included) wanted to have a chance to spawn their respective Lich. Hence, the player who did not want to kill their Lich walked to the friendship door and waited, while two of the other players continued to attack the Lich into a downed state. 

On one hand, three players are griefing the player that did not want to kill their Lich by forcing them to do something they didn't want to do, and incurring punishment on them (leveling the Lich or forfeiting their murmurs by leaving the mission) by not allowing them to open the friendship door, and furthermore get to extraction (not to mention not being able to extract anyway, because they need two players at minimum to start the extraction timer).

On the other hand, three players are being griefed by the player that did not want to kill their Lich as, while their Lich is active they're mostly guaranteed not to be able to spawn their Lich, voiding their entire cause for the mission not out of gameplay factors like RNG, but simply due to a player's unwillingness. 

This isn't the only time this has happened in my games, and I can't see anything but two wrongs. If neither side concedes, it's stalemate. The objective is different for both sides, yet still the same: They want to play their game, but they just want to get to the outcome in different, valid ways. 

How do you solve this problem? 

This feedback has been given too much to not have had any response at all. 

[Walkampf]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb ShichiseitenYasha:

How do you solve this problem? 

Don't play public.

[Yasha-7HS]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

Don't play public.

This is a cooperative, multiplayer game at its core. This is a non-solution. 

[Test-995]

Just remove the #*!%ing reason to not kill liches, as well as arbitrary one lich spawns at a time restrction.

Or perhaps punish players not want to kill liches, or limit lich spawns per mission instead of one at a time, or maybe just remove friendship door.

Maybe remove lich spawns from PuG, or make lich missions recruit only like derelict nodes.

What else?

[Xaero]

1) Get rid of friendship doors (for the least amount of work put a 30 seconds timer for the door to open if only one player interacts with it).

2) Allow multiple liches to be spawned at the same time.

[KIREEK]

Primary objective is more important, i'm not here to tell you the objective priority here, you are way past any tutorial.

You cannot stall games intentionally, however, after being idle for 2 minutes in a friendship door (i mean completely still), you will be able to open the friendship door even if alone.

So whoever was at the door, not only can he report the team for intentionally halting the run, but he could also open the friendship door if he waited long enough.

[Pizzarugi]

42 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

How do you solve this problem?

Play Revenant. He has a "bug" right now where enthralled Liches can be despawned if you take out their health bar. It has potential to troll by despawning other peoples' Liches even if they intended to finish them, but I've been using it to remove the ones people are dodging.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[Yasha-7HS]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

2) Allow multiple liches to be spawned at the same time.

 

5 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

limit lich spawns per mission instead of one at a time

We can't just spawn multiple liches for balance reasons. Say, having multiple liches with radial disarm and hallowed ground using radiation weapons makes it almost completely untenable to attack them as anything but a solo player, because everyone will kill each other. That's just a single combination that could result artificial challenge. 

5 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Primary objective is more important, i'm not here to tell you the objective priority here, you are way past any tutorial.

You cannot stall games intentionally, however, after being idle for 2 minutes in a friendship door (i mean completely still), you will be able to open the friendship door even if alone.

So whoever was at the door, not only can he report the team for intentionally halting the run, but he could also open the friendship door if he waited long enough.

The extraction condition was completed. Arguably, being that the mission is a specifically selected node, the primary objective is not just the extraction condition. 

I can't say the other two players were intentionally stalling the game, as they were trying to complete the objective given to them, yet were not allowed to. 

[KIREEK]

1 minute ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

 

We can't just spawn multiple liches for balance reasons. Say, having multiple liches with radial disarm and hallowed ground using radiation weapons makes it almost completely untenable to attack them as anything but a solo player, because everyone will kill each other. That's just a single combination that could result artificial challenge. 

The extraction condition was completed. Arguably, being that the mission is a specifically selected node, the primary objective is not just the extraction condition. 

I can't say the other two players were intentionally stalling the game, as they were trying to complete the objective given to them, yet were not allowed to. 

i'm not here to tell you the objective priority here, you are way past any tutorial.

[Walkampf]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ShichiseitenYasha:

This is a cooperative, multiplayer game at its core. This is a non-solution. 

Not playing public is something different from playing solo.

You have friends, don't you? Are you member of a clan? Are you able to write in chat? You know, communicating with the people you play with instead of simply clearing the map-markers the game shows you.

It is very much a solution, just not for the laziest of lazy. Also, it's highly hypocritical of you refering to the multiplayer aspect while completly ignoring what it actually means to play with others.

[Yasha-7HS]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Play Revenant. He has a "bug" right now where enthralled Liches can be despawned if you take out their health bar. It has potential to grief, but I've been using it to remove Liches people are dodging.

Exploitation is a non-solution. And, like you said, it has potential to grief. 

[dogbus]

Just abort the mission. Won't loose any sleep over it. Someone wants to be stubborn one way or the other? Fine, I'm not a babysitter. Y'all can stay at your friendship door arguing all night long.

[Xaero]

6 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

We can't just spawn multiple liches for balance reasons. Say, having multiple liches with radial disarm and hallowed ground using radiation weapons makes it almost completely untenable to attack them as anything but a solo player, because everyone will kill each other. That's just a single combination that could result artificial challenge. 

Liches don't move far from the place they're at. Different liches could spawn, like, 3 rooms away from each other.

[Yasha-7HS]

1 minute ago, KIREEK said:

i'm not here to tell you the objective priority here, you are way past any tutorial.

Then this isn't helpful feedback if you're refusing to elaborate. If you're going to say there is only one viable objective, then just say it. 

 

3 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Not playing public is something different from playing solo.

You have friends, don't you? Are you member of a clan? Are you able to write in chat? You know, communicating with the people you play with instead of simply clearing the map-markers the game shows you.

It is very much a solution, just not for the laziest of lazy. Also, it's highly hypocritical of you refering to the multiplayer aspect while completly ignoring what it actually means to play with others.

I assumed solo, as that's what most people say other than public. In which case that you meant play with a clan or friends, that is a solution. 

There was communication in that game. 

Playing with others means bending to the whims of the team, I suppose. But, again, that doesn't solve anything. Half the team wants to do one thing, the other half wanted to do another thing. So, three people are wrong, or one person is wrong? What criteria are we basing the best interests of the team here? Majority? The personal objective? 

[Yasha-7HS]

4 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Just abort the mission. Won't loose any sleep over it. Someone wants to be stubborn one way or the other? Fine, I'm not a babysitter. Y'all can stay at your friendship door arguing all night long.

This doesn't solve the problem. This can happen in any string of games, this could happen for weeks straight for all it matters, the problem just comes back. 

 

4 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Liches don't move far from the place they're at. Different liches could spawn, like, 3 rooms away from each other.

But there is the chance they all spawn together, as before the kill-convert liches bug was fixed multple could spawn in the same mission, and twice in my games they all spawned on-top of one another. 

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb ShichiseitenYasha:

There was communication in that game. 

Playing with others means bending to the whims of the team, I suppose. But, again, that doesn't solve anything. Half the team wants to do one thing, the other half wanted to do another thing. So, three people are wrong, or one person is wrong? What criteria are we basing the best interests of the team here? Majority? The personal objective? 

Or, you know, talk  to them before automated matchmaking so you can clear these question before you start the mission?

[Kefirno]

11 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

This is a cooperative, multiplayer game at its core. This is a non-solution. 

Coop implies some cooperation, not just 4 random people being dropped in the same mission. Expecting proper coop from pub group is like expecting happy marriage from a glory hole. If you grind this joke of a content is public group you should just accept that it's gamble and other players might have goals and approach different from yours.

Anyway, "friendship doors" are cancer and should be removed from the game.

[Test-995]

12 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

We can't just spawn multiple liches for balance reasons. Say, having multiple liches with radial disarm and hallowed ground using radiation weapons makes it almost completely untenable to attack them as anything but a solo player, because everyone will kill each other. That's just a single combination that could result artificial challenge. 

Git gud, and removal of rad procs from liches are must no matter what, rad proc isn't a difficulty from the beginning in any way.

[dogbus]

1 minute ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

This doesn't solve the problem.

Yes it does. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it any less true. 

Keep in mind, this is all a temporary problem already being addressed by devs, so your "problem" is actually only an issue until a hotfix rolls out.

[Xaero]

Just now, ShichiseitenYasha said:

But there is the chance they all spawn together, as before the kill-convert liches bug was fixed multple could spawn in the same mission, and twice in my games they all spawned on-top of one another. 

I don't think it's out of DE's control to spawn different liches in different places. Potential bugs regarding spawns at the same spot (which are not even game-breaking) can also be fixed.

[Test-995]

7 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Playing with others means bending to the whims of the team, I suppose. But, again, that doesn't solve anything. Half the team wants to do one thing, the other half wanted to do another thing. So, three people are wrong, or one person is wrong? What criteria are we basing the best interests of the team here? Majority? The personal objective? 

Expecting others to do something that you want them to do, in PuG, is wrong.

So in this case, both.

[Pizzarugi]

14 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Exploitation is a non-solution. And, like you said, it has potential to grief. 

I'd take advantage of it while you can. Not only does it give players who don't want to be forced to try and finish their Lich just to get killed for next to no benefit (10 murmurs means nothing) a means of removing them, it also means you don't have to worry about your own getting locked out by someone who refuses to kill theirs.

Whether DE is working on a solution to both of these issues is uncertain (I'm sure Lich locking has more priority over the Revenant "bug" exploit), but this is the only option we have to deal with the situation at hand.

[Yasha-7HS]

2 minutes ago, Kefirno said:

Coop implies some cooperation, not just 4 random people being dropped in the same mission. Expecting proper coop from pub group is like expecting happy marriage from a glory hole. If you grind this joke of a content is public group you should just accept that it's gamble and other players might have goals and approach different from yours.

Anyway, "friendship doors" are cancer and should be removed from the game.

Having a goal and approach different from mine does not usually create a stalemate in the rest of the game. It creates some annoyance, but not a rift between a team that should be playing the objective. 

4 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Or, you know, talk  to them before automated matchmaking so you can clear these question before you start the mission?

Do you mean before the game starts? Because you can join the game in the middle of the mission. Before the situation occurs? Because they joined immediately, and then the lich spawned right after. 

There was communication in the game. There isn't always opportunity to have a discussion about that before it happens. 

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Do you mean before the game starts? Because you can join the game in the middle of the mission. Before the situation occurs? Because they joined immediately, and then the lich spawned right after. 

There was communication in the game. There isn't always opportunity to have a discussion about that before it happens.

This is one scenario you can use as a responsible Revenant. Inform your team you can despawn Liches by force, and anyone who intends on avoiding them should let you know. If they say they are or don't respond while miles away from their Lich, it's safe to assume they're blocking and you can despawn them.

[Yasha-7HS]

5 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Expecting others to do something that you want them to do, in PuG, is wrong.

So in this case, both.

This doesn't answer anything. I don't expect them to do what I want them to do, I'm looking for a solution to the situation the game created. 

10 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Yes it does. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it any less true. 

Keep in mind, this is all a temporary problem already being addressed by devs, so your "problem" is actually only an issue until a hotfix rolls out.

There's a difference between solving a problem and delaying it. 

Tell me where they've addressed it, please. I'd love to finally have confirmation that this isn't going to be a perpetual scenario.