Start planning level design for cloud gaming.

[Uthael]

Once again, I'm trying to shift the general attention to this. It may be possible to have a 4-digit number of players playing at the same time in the same zone. It would have to be a big zone, though.

Here's a brief history of what I'm talking about (Hadean's Aether engine)

And here's the next attempt at the world-record breaking stress test (join us) and the FAQ

And here's a video showing that AI is possible on that scale, too.

And the following is a quote of my last post about it:

On 2019-11-07 at 3:27 AM, Uthael said:

Here's a little story:
I've played EVE. EVE has this problem/solution when a large number of players decides to enter the same zone, they slow down the time in that zone rather than let it lag for everyone. This is so-called Time Dilatation (TiDi) and makes thousands of players in the same zone possible.

Hadean (some company) made a deal with CCP (EVE's devs) to test their Aether Engine. It's a system in development which would replace the server infrastructure, making it possible for the game to run without TiDi no matter the load. When I learned about that, I created the following topic:

^{Open world possible with Hadean?}

Basically, they're talking about being able to simulate everything from individual ants in their colonies in the ground to space stations in the orbit, all possible on the same game, on the same server.

And lately, Microsoft noticed them and they teamed up. It's not just Microsoft, but that one is big news, so you know how serious that is. And that technology will probably soon be related to Stadia.

If any of you want to help make history, join us at the second tech demo and try to break the game as hard as you can in as many ways as you can.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1165670/EVE_Aether_Wars__Tech_Demo/

Steam is another of their partners now.

Hopefully, DE catches wind of this too and they either re-make their own servers or rent some that can support true open world.

 

[Oreades]

I really want to find the marketing shlub or IT tech who just didn't want to deal with their idiot boss who coined the term "Cloud" and kick them squarely in their junk. 

We're talking servers, just heccin' say servers. 

[Loza03]

Warframe can already host 50 players on one thing. Relays.

Look at how well the engine handles that.

10 minutes ago, Uthael said:

Hadean (some company) made a deal with CCP (EVE's devs) to test their Aether Engine.

 

Its the engine that matters. Whilst some thing can be chopped, changed and updated, the core engine something runs on ultimately does limit a game. A full engine crossover and new engine development would be a massive task.

Warframe's Evolution Engine is a modified single-player engine, and whilst it does remarkably well in a multiplayer environment, it's unlikely to take upgrades to enable this very well.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't want this - it sounds potentially amazing - it's just there's practical considerations in the way.

[Leyvonne]

Well DE doesn't have proper servers to beingwith and the game uses P2P connection so I doubt they'd suddenly go for server that can have thousands of players in one area when we don't have servers that can have 4 people in the same area. And personally I wouldn't even want massive areas with tons of people in Warframe.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Leyvonne

[Uthael]

20 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I really want to find the marketing shlub or IT tech who just didn't want to deal with their idiot boss who coined the term "Cloud" and kick them squarely in their junk. 

We're talking servers, just heccin' say servers. 

In this context, this means several servers in several countries sharing their processing power for the same task. A single short word for that is welcome. But "cloud" does sound cringeworthy. Have a like.

 

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe can already host 50 players on one thing. Relays. Look at how well the engine handles that.

Its the engine that matters. Whilst some thing can be chopped, changed and updated, the core engine something runs on ultimately does limit a game. A full engine crossover and new engine development would be a massive task.

Warframe's Evolution Engine is a modified single-player engine, and whilst it does remarkably well in a multiplayer environment, it's unlikely to take upgrades to enable this very well.

That's not to say I wouldn't want this - it sounds potentially amazing - it's just there's practical considerations in the way.

Yeah, my bad not mentioning this. Didn't think of it. Quoting from Discord:
1. Is there going to be any form of Indie licensing for Aether Engine? I have been waiting for Aether Engine since about 2016.
– The Aether Engine SDK will release in 2020. We do have a closed beta which will launch later this year but that's for certain partners.
2. What is the resource consumption like with Aether Engine? Example: CPU, Ram, etc.
– Aether Engine runs on the cloud therefore it won't cause significant resource consumption on your local machine.
3. What integrations will you offer for Aether engine? Example: Godot, Unreal, Unity, etc.
– We are working to make sure that Aether Engine plays nice with many applications including Unreal, Unity, and CryEngine.
We'll be releasing more information about this as we get closer to releasing the SDK

It may be worth contacting them and asking if they'd support Evolution Engine, too.

8 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

Well DE doesn't have proper servers to beingwith and the game uses P2P connection so I doubt they'd suddenly go for server that can have thousands of players in one area when we don't have servers that can have 4 people in the same area. And personally I wouldn't even want massive areas with tons of people in Warframe.

At the moment, Warframe hosts about 30k-40k people online simultaneously. The server infrastructure is most likely inefficient as is.
From what I read, renting could be a viable alternative to maintaining own server. Also, keeping own servers and just switching to Hadean OS would be the same as buying much stronger hardware.

If there are tons of people in any open world area besides cities, the area is not big enough. And personally, I'm tired of being confined to my Orbiter. It's nice to have a "home", but this is more like living in a trailer. ... And doing missions feels like steping into a workplace from that trailer.
I want to have a walk around my grandma's forest and fields... Use my Itzal to fly from Earth to Lua, you know... Or around Mt. Everest. No tons of people there.
If you've played WoW before Cataclysm, you'll know the feeling of Nagrand. Both, before and after obtaining a flying mount (Archwing in this case).

[Leyvonne]

10 minutes ago, Uthael said:

At the moment, Warframe hosts about 30k-40k people online simultaneously. The server infrastructure is most likely inefficient as is.
From what I read, renting could be a viable alternative to maintaining own server. Also, keeping own servers and just switching to Hadean OS would be the same as buying much stronger hardware.

Again, there are no servers (other than login, relay and dojo). Everything else aka actual gameplay is P2P = you connect to other people playing the game, not a server. Renting a server is an expense just like maintaining your own.
 

18 minutes ago, Uthael said:

If you've played WoW before Cataclysm, you'll know the feeling of Nagrand. Both, before and after obtaining a flying mount (Archwing in this case).

I have played WoW for about 15 years, but I have no idea what feeling you are talking about 😄

[NoSpax]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Uthael:

2. What is the resource consumption like with Aether Engine? Example: CPU, Ram, etc.
– Aether Engine runs on the cloud therefore it won't cause significant resource consumption on your local machine.

And here is the moment, I can't take this serious anymore.

FOR A DECADE, we have been upgrading our rigs every two years to a 8-core+, near 4 GHz and a (or two) Geforce 1080 Ti Machine and 400Mbit/s Internet.

Now they tell us: "Oops, you don't need that with our fancy engine."

Cloud Gaming will never replace local Client Executables. They will finish this engine, it's relevant for 1-2 years, the games will create all sorts of trouble and then never be seen again.

[Uthael]

10 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

there are no servers (other than login, relay and dojo).

Well, SOMETHING does recognize when my Internet connection breaks, booting me out.
Fortuna release did cause them trouble. I guess that's relay servers?

10 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

I have played WoW for about 15 years, but I have no idea what feeling you are talking about 😄

Errr... Imagine questing in Stranglethorn Vale, but with PvP totally disabled and maybe seeing 5 other players in the zone. Similar to that.
A field trip, if you're into that sort of thing?

@NoSpax - I think normal missions in Warframe will remain as they are for a looong time, this being implemented or not... Requiring P2P and gaming rigs.
But an area with different terrains that requires >15min to cross will require a different approach. That would require a server. And that would be a waste to play with only 4 people.

Many would say that before that decade of upgrading, we lived in a stone age. Imagine not having to upgrade anymore 5 years from now. You'd have to do it only twice more.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Uthael said:

3. What integrations will you offer for Aether engine? Example: Godot, Unreal, Unity, etc.
– We are working to make sure that Aether Engine plays nice with many applications including Unreal, Unity, and CryEngine.
We'll be releasing more information about this as we get closer to releasing the SDK

It may be worth contacting them and asking if they'd support Evolution Engine, too.

That much is somewhat interesting. However...

1 hour ago, Uthael said:

2. What is the resource consumption like with Aether Engine? Example: CPU, Ram, etc.
– Aether Engine runs on the cloud therefore it won't cause significant resource consumption on your local machine.

If Stadia is anything to go by, this tech is nowhere near ready.

40 minutes ago, NoSpax said:

And here is the moment, I can't take this serious anymore.

FOR A DECADE, we have been upgrading our rigs every two years to a 8-core+, near 4 GHz and a (or two) Geforce 1080 Ti Machine and 400Mbit/s Internet.

Now they tell us: "Oops, you don't need that with our fancy engine."

Cloud Gaming will never replace local Client Executables. They will finish this engine, it's relevant for 1-2 years, the games will create all sorts of trouble and then never be seen again.

I'd question 'never', but this whole thing is jumping the shark. I'm gonna say it'll become viable in a decade or two, much like VR and the Virtual Boy.

[Uthael]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

(...) I'm gonna say it'll become viable in a decade or two, much like VR and the Virtual Boy.

I'd say in 2-8 years. They're releasing the SDK only in the next year and that's without even knowing if it will be available for the Evolution engine.

I know little about cloud gaming. I know:
- Stadia will have a subscription fee of about $10/month and a free version available through Google Chrome (free plus the games you buy)
- Microsoft is teaming up with Hadean most likely because of xCloud (competition to Stadia). Xbox Game Pass (Microsoft) is $10/month and it's likely they'll merge the services.
- DE plans to keep Warframe free-to-play and that's one of the conditions for the majority of players to stay
- PlayStation players still need to be able to play (without Microsoft or Google)

That's why I'm trying to hype this up and urge the devs to start some conversations with Hadean directly. To make sure Hadean's engine supports Evolution engine whether DE ends up teaming up with anyone or staying independent (preferable, if hardware allows it).

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Uthael said:

I'd say in 2-8 years. They're releasing the SDK only in the next year and that's without even knowing if it will be available for the Evolution engine.

I know little about cloud gaming. I know:
- Stadia will have a subscription fee of about $10/month and a free version available through Google Chrome (free plus the games you buy)
- Microsoft is teaming up with Hadean most likely because of xCloud (competition to Stadia). Xbox Game Pass (Microsoft) is $10/month and it's likely they'll merge the services.
- DE plans to keep Warframe free-to-play and that's one of the conditions for the majority of players to stay
- PlayStation players still need to be able to play (without Microsoft or Google)

That's why I'm trying to hype this up and urge the devs to start some conversations with Hadean directly. To make sure Hadean's engine supports Evolution engine whether DE ends up teaming up with anyone or staying independent (preferable, if hardware allows it).

The main thing I know about Stadia is that it's flopping like a breaching whale, and tech issues are a part of it, even in the US.

The tech really, really, is not there yet.

[Uthael]

^{---^ That post deserved a "Haha" emote, but there's an unwritten rule that that's actually a dislike button.}
I just don't want my current favorite game and devteam to end up like Nokia after they said "Smartphones are a passing fad".

[Shalath]

From the first linked article.

Quote

Gaming is moving to the cloud, period.

Incorrect. A company building a "cloud-first OS" would really, really like it if everyone used their product.

Anybody with any lick of sense knows that moving the processing time from the local client to a remote server (or server cluster) is going to introduce lag. I've only read 2 technical articles on Stadia but the fact that they completely contradicted each other says it all. The first said "there will be no lag". Riiiight. The second said they would be using predictive procesing to eliminate lag. I'm sure that will work...

A snippet from Engadget's Stadia review:

Quote

The first Stadia game I booted up was Destiny 2 on the Chromecast Ultra. The title screen loaded quickly and I created a new character; the process felt so smooth and familiar that I forgot I was playing a AAA, online game on a streaming puck the size of a Thin Mint. But then, I started shooting. The lag was immediate.

I don't care what any marketing shlub keen on stuffing everything "in the cloud" says. Any service that takes my keystrokes/mouse movements, sends them "to the cloud" and streams me audio and video back cannot do so with zero lag. I don't care if that "cloud" is at the end of my road, you can't do it.

Gaming has been "in the cloud" if you want to completely misuse the term since the very first online games where the server did all the "world" work (where everything is) and instructed your local installed client what to render (enemy goes here, door goes there, bullets go there). I'm pretty sure some of therm lagged too.

"Ah" the article says, "but our OS can have diferent servers *kicked by marketing*, sorry clouds, all over the world processing the same game world so no regional servers!". So, what about the lag sending data between these servers, sorry clouds, as well as betwen the cloud and the players?? "There won't be any because marketing said so!"

Sorry, but this OS is not a new solution to an existing problem. It is a product looking to create a market for itself by slapping the word "cloud" on it. The proper name for this product is "distributed processing" but we all know that has been around for ages so they can't call it that.

A few months from now Stadia and similar will all be on life support because everyone will have worked out that any game that relies on response times doesn't work on it and they are left with people playing games like The SIms. I know they would like to think they can entice the Call Of Warfare Medal Of Duty types but come on, these are the people that will quibble over a single frame per second and buy special controllers/keyboard/mice to increase response times and you think they are going to put up with a single millisecond of lag? RTS pros and their actions per second?

[Uthael]

Competitive shooters 100% won't work on cloud. I'm with you there. Any game where lag and precision are both involved has to make a compromise either by:
- Letting enemy models appear client-side or
- using a single dedicated server (not a cloud) very close to the client playing (so the lag is ~15-25ms)

Both solutions are very prone to abuse. In the first case, a popular hack was to increasing the size of head models for offensive purposes.
In the second case, employing a lag-shield for defensive purposes is easy and practically undetectable.

Warframe is doing the 1st. That Scorpion Grineer you both landed a headshot on as it started its pull animation... She was actually at two places at once and both of your shots landed at different places because of lag. And that's perfectly fine since this is a PvE game. This makes cloud gaming viable for Warframe.

Heck! People have found unintended ways for abusing it in Warframe, too. But there are no players whose game experience is harmed by this so DE is allowing it letting it slide while doing all in their power to minimize it.

Edit: "predictive procesing" my butt! That's just a sugar-coated way of saying "rubberbanding".

On 2019-11-22 at 10:08 AM, Shalath said:

Sorry, but this OS is not a new solution to an existing problem. It is a product looking to create a market for itself by slapping the word "cloud" on it. The proper name for this product is "distributed processing" but we all know that has been around for ages so they can't call it that.

Yes. They're figuratively reinventing the wheel, trying to minimize the lag between the servers in their cloud. There won't be a Windows or a Linux anymore required to support a game installation. This is their pitch:

Edited November 23, 2019 by Uthael

[NoSpax]

Am 21.11.2019 um 23:41 schrieb Loza03:

The main thing I know about Stadia is that it's flopping like a breaching whale, and tech issues are a part of it, even in the US.

And it did.

[zuraja]

On 2019-11-22 at 4:08 AM, Shalath said:

Anybody with any lick of sense knows that moving the processing time from the local client to a remote server (or server cluster) is going to introduce lag. I've only read 2 technical articles on Stadia but the fact that they completely contradicted each other says it all. The first said "there will be no lag". Riiiight. The second said they would be using predictive procesing to eliminate lag. I'm sure that will work...

Even on the tech demo where they were connecting to a server that was in the same building as the console there was noticeable lag.  This is something that could work for turn-based games like Civ or XCOM but not anything where reaction time is remotely relevant.