Railjack, Dojo, and Resources: A Suggestion

[Ceolrus]

With the addition of the Dry Dock and Railjack research, some things popped into mind that I feel would make nice changes (QoL and other otherwise). Feel free to tweak/add suggestions.

First off, what does everyone else think of the personal research requirements for Railjack. I initially assumed it would be a clan effort for the entire process, but personally have no qualms with each clan member having to research their own Railjack. 

This does bring up an old idea that I think would be useful to implement (with tweaks to minimize issues). During the process of gathering resources for what we assumed was a clan Railjack, we had pooled our resources into the clan vault. As we learned our mistake, we had no way of pulling out those resources now to fund our research. We had a few ideas on how to possible resolve our error that might be useful for other purposes as well:

• The option to request/petition the retrieval of resources from the vault: One game we played some years ago allowed resources to be retrieved upon request and had to be approved by a majority vote. Submit a form with an explanation and for the amount requested, then wait for approval. Issues with this, as with Warframe and any other game, was absentee leaders and members, stacked votes, or abuse of power (kicking members out). These are some ways, either on its own or variations of each together, to address parts of this:
  • Option to turn on/off personal resource approval requirements: Make approvals for personal resources an optional process for a clan. Personal resources contributed during the requirement can only be retrieved with approval, but anything contributed during a period where it was not required can be retrieved freely (in most cases).
  • Ownership rules: Resources belonging to you can be retrieved (perhaps upon approval by a leader/higher member) up to the amount you have contributed. Anything more would require approval from those who have also contributed to that resource, in which case they would be notified to approve the request as well. Leaving a clan without retrieving your resources surrenders them. Being kicked removes your resources entirely (except maybe for specific cases such as being removed for extended inactivity).
  • Activity threshold: Only clan members that have been last active within some period of time (last week/month, several weeks/months?) have a vote for resource requests. In the event that the clan and/or leader is gone, but resources are stuck in the vault, there is the possibility of recovery.

This is what I have for resource sharing off the top of my head. Again, please feel free to tweak/add suggestions as this is far from a perfect solution.

A small QoL change: the ability to rearrange a list.
After building our Dry Dock, I thought it would neat to add transporters with nautical terms (Port/Starboard Side Boarding, East/West Viewing Deck, etc). The issue here is that transporters are organized alphabetically. Being able to rearrange and group transporters would better organize things (ie: grouping by priority/theme/player traffic). Perhaps make it hold-to-drag to move around. This could also translate to other small changes (loadouts without having to copy/recreate in a new slot). 

Of course I could be missing a lot of issues (technical or otherwise) and encourage you guys to throw in your two cents here. Maybe I have a good idea, maybe I have a terrible idea, but feedback (usually) doesn't hurt shaping an idea.

Edit: My friend and I have no issues having to re-gather everything (time not being an issue of ours), but we thought it might be nice to possibly make something out of our mistake.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ceolrus
Changes based on responses

[-CdG-Zilchy]

I think the requirements are fine and the people complaining are too used to being spoon fed everything in a F2P game. I think seeing as it's supposed to be for the latest quest, new players shouldn't be rushing it anyway. Furthermore the complaint about 12 hours wait time is silly considering practically every blueprint ever researched in the dojo was a 12 hour wait time.

Lastly, allowing funding from the vault would just cause more entitlement issues ie people joining a clan, getting it funded for free and leaving. This is a fairly major upgrade for the game, it shouldn't cost 1 orokin cell and 15000 credits, it should be something players earn. And since it will likely lead to battling sentients, it's about time they walled off some content from brand new players with no clue what they're doing and no gear to help out, literally just afking for the rewards, not caring that they're leeching, public Eidolons anyone?

Edit: that's an unfortunate mistake, if it's not a ghost clan you might want to consider finding another clan if you're unable to downsize, otherwise you'll be paying a premium for all future research and upgrades.

Edited November 26, 2019 by -CdG-Zilchy

[ZiltoidiaAttacks]

They need to indicate the vertical dimension of the drydock in the build menu so we can plan where to put it.

[Veridian]

4 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I think the requirements are fine and the people complaining are too used to being spoon fed everything in a F2P game. I think seeing as it's supposed to be for the latest quest, new players shouldn't be rushing it anyway. Furthermore the complaint about 12 hours wait time is silly considering practically every blueprint ever researched in the dojo was a 12 hour wait time.

Lastly, allowing funding from the vault would just cause more entitlement issues ie people joining a clan, getting it funded for free and leaving. This is a fairly major upgrade for the game, it shouldn't cost 1 orokin cell and 15000 credits, it should be something players earn. And since it will likely lead to battling sentients, it's about time they walled off some content from brand new players with no clue what they're doing and no gear to help out, literally just afking for the rewards, not caring that they're leeching, public Eidolons anyone?

Edit: that's an unfortunate mistake, if it's not a ghost clan you might want to consider finding another clan if you're unable to downsize, otherwise you'll be paying a premium for all future research and upgrades.

I was wondering how to put it, then I saw this post.

For any semi-invested player the cost is nothing. Rather than whine about the high costs, people should accept they're just not at the level of progress they believe they are.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

5 hours ago, Ceolrus said:

The option to request/petition the retrieval of resources from the vault: One game we played some years ago allowed resources to be retrieved upon request and had to be approved by a majority vote. Issues with this, as with Warframe and any other game, was absentee leaders and members, stacked votes, or abuse of power (kicking members out). These are some ways, either on its own or variations of each together, to address parts of this:

• Option to turn on/off approval requirements: Make approvals and optional process for a clan. Resources contributed during the requirement can only be retrieved with approval, but anything contributed during a period where it was not required can be retrieved freely (in most cases).
• Ownership rules: Resources belonging to you can be retrieved (perhaps upon approval by a leader/higher member) up to the amount you have contributed. Anything more would require approval from those who have also contributed to that resource, in which case they would be notified to approve the request as well. Leaving a clan without retrieving your resources surrenders them. Being kicked removes your resources entirely (except maybe for specific cases such as being removed for extended inactivity).
• Activity threshold: Only clan members that have been last active within some period of time (last week/month, several weeks/months?) have a vote for resource requests. In the event that the clan and/or leader is gone, but resources are stuck in the vault, there is the possibility of recovery.

1. this could be abused by players joining clans just to get various materials they are too lazy to farm for an just leave the clan afterwards
2. this is counteractive as materials are non tradable so making a system that allows them to traded through 3rd party means
3. all things donated to a clan are for clans dojo use only an so this system would make it where people are demanding rescources from a clan they helped to build up but are now no longer interested in being apart of it

[Genitive]

I just want to be able to demolish rooms without having to wait 2 hours.

[Ceolrus]

9 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I think the requirements are fine ... as it's supposed to be for the latest quest, new players shouldn't be rushing it anyway. Furthermore the complaint about 12 hours wait time is silly considering practically every blueprint ever researched in the dojo was a 12 hour wait time.

Lastly, allowing funding from the vault would just cause more entitlement issues ie people joining a clan, getting it funded for free and leaving.

Edit: that's an unfortunate mistake, if it's not a ghost clan you might want to consider finding another clan if you're unable to downsize, otherwise you'll be paying a premium for all future research and upgrades.

I agree and think the requirements are fine as is. Some players are too use to how easy Warframe is relative to most other games (grinding dungeons for hours/days/weeks for that one drop you desperately need). Progress-gated content is fine when reasonably attainable.

How would you address entitlement and leavers? Ways to ensure to only invested players can request resources. Do you think a minimum MR or Total Hours played would help? Minimum contributions to a dojo perhaps?

It’s really just him and I in our Ghost Clan these days, but it’s not like we can’t easily farm back everything. These days we’ve fallen off from our daily grind to just waiting for new updates and playing till we catch up to everything again.

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

1. this could be abused by players joining clans just to get various materials they are too lazy to farm for an just leave the clan afterwards
2. this is counteractive as materials are non tradable so making a system that allows them to traded through 3rd party means
3. all things donated to a clan are for clans dojo use only an so this system would make it where people are demanding rescources from a clan they helped to build up but are now no longer interested in being apart of it

1. That’s why it’s an approval process. How would you address leeches and leavers? Ways to ensure to only invested players can request resources. Do you think a minimum MR or Total Hours played would help? Minimum contributions to a dojo perhaps?
2. DE has made previously nontradeable items tradeable. There is no precedence saying it can’t change (I will partially agree and say that roundabout trading should not be allowed, that’s why I suggested a minimum requirement/investment from the requesting player).
3. Demanding does not mean you have to concede. If someone is leaving and they want resources back, they can ask for it (though I doubt someone who built a clan up would have trouble gathering resources again) No one is taking or being given those resources without some investment (be it a large minimum one from the leaver and time to approve the request from active clan mates or some other requirement). That’s why I suggested a voting system.

4 hours ago, Genitive said:

I just want to be able to demolish rooms without having to wait 2 hours.

I feel that lol. I didn’t have it too bad thankfully, had to wait a day destroying hallways to fit the damn thing in there, then I had to destroy the dry dock itself to rotate it when I noticed the default entrance was to the side.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ceolrus

[-CdG-Zilchy]

8 minutes ago, Ceolrus said:

I agree and think the requirements are fine as is. Some players are too use to how easy Warframe is relative to most other games (grinding dungeons for hours/days/weeks for that one drop you desperately need). Progress-gated content is fine when reasonably attainable.

How would you address entitlement and leavers? Ways to ensure to only invested players can request resources. Do you think a minimum MR or Total Hours played would help? Minimum contributions to a dojo perhaps?

It’s really just him and I in our Ghost Clan these days, but it’s not like we can’t easily farm back everything. These days we’ve fallen off from our daily grind to just waiting for new updates and playing till we catch up to everything again.

1. That’s why it’s an approval process. How would you address leeches and leavers? Ways to ensure to only invested players can request resources. Do you think a minimum MR or Total Hours played would help? Minimum contributions to a dojo perhaps?
2. DE has made previously nontradeable items tradeable. There is no precedence saying it can’t change (I will partially agree and say that roundabout trading should not be allowed, that’s why I suggested a minimum requirement/investment from the requesting player).
3. Demanding does not mean you have to concede. If someone is leaving and they want resources back, they can ask for it (though I doubt someone who built a clan up would have trouble gathering resources again) No one is taking or being given those resources without some investment (be it a large minimum one from the leaver and time to approve the request from active clan mates or some other requirement). That’s why I suggested a voting system.

I feel that lol. I didn’t have it too bad thankfully, had to wait a day destroying hallways to fit the damn thing in there, then I had to destroy the dry dock itself to rotate it when I noticed the default entrance was to the side.

You have the right mindset, if you'd like to join a clan that has 6 dojos to choose from, with everything researched, has an active discord, friendly players etc just message me.

[bad4youLT]

If a railjack was a clans effort , who would be the owner ? you can clolor customize and name railjack , did anyone ever though that I dunno , maybe railjacks wassint supposed to be clan effort but rather players own effort .

We have things like focus , prime mods , using formas and potatoes to build your arsenal , syndicates and other syndicate like reputation building as well a long term quest chains progression and yet people complain about this thing wich is a dent to players progresion .

On to the topic when .

Some folks have suggested to allow using clan treasury to fund ones railjack , I personal have two sided opinion on this as one this would be helpfull but on the other it could lead to clan resource abuse or straight up leeching other player resources .

One other idea is to make railjack entire clans effort , but let me ask you this , do you want the cost be affected by clan tier ? this would be the next hema but on steroids , think of moon clan cost .

Other suggestion would be to lower the cost but in doing so you would devalue whole thing in my opinion as railjack looks like to be a status simbol , aka I been here long enough to have this .

What I personaly would like if DE gaved us an option to help out with players own efforst , if I have friend who is new and strugling on its own I wouldnt mind offloading some of mine personal resources , this however should be kept away from clan treasury to avoid abuse .

 

Eddit for tipos

Edited November 26, 2019 by bad4youLT

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1 hour ago, Ceolrus said:

1. That’s why it’s an approval process. How would you address leeches and leavers? Ways to ensure to only invested players can request resources. Do you think a minimum MR or Total Hours played would help? Minimum contributions to a dojo perhaps?

ya but alot of people in the warframe community are quite helpful an so a player could join saying can i get a care package of so an so resources...........*leaves clan an tries with another*
 

1 hour ago, Ceolrus said:

2. DE has made previously nontradeable items tradeable. There is no precedence saying it can’t change (I will partially agree and say that roundabout trading should not be allowed, that’s why I suggested a minimum requirement/investment from the requesting player).

ya but having a 3rd party resource trading system for players ruins the farming an would also lead to people hacking accounts to enemy a players entire rescource inventory into a clan an then invite there account or another hacked account tranfser them to it.

1 hour ago, Ceolrus said:

3. Demanding does not mean you have to concede. If someone is leaving and they want resources back, they can ask for it (though I doubt someone who built a clan up would have trouble gathering resources again) No one is taking or being given those resources without some investment (be it a large minimum one from the leaver and time to approve the request from active clan mates or some other requirement). That’s why I suggested a voting system.

player could have been founding member of the 10 when clan was ghost an now is storm. they been away an dont like how clan grew an want more than what they put into the clan.
the player could still be a warlord an the player that is the founding warlord not around an so this one thats demanding materials could start ruining the dojo till he gets what he wants an not really much DE could do to stop them based on past experiences with inner clan troubles i reported.

[Firetempest]

Imo. If a clan wants to help someone with Mats, they can just run missions as groups instead of clans just being a giving tree of loot.

[Fire2box]

12 hours ago, Ceolrus said:

During the process of gathering resources for what we assumed was a clan Railjack, we had pooled our resources into the clan vault.

But why? You could of just kept them yourselves and if they were needed, give them to clan. There's a reason it's called donation. 

 

As for extracting material out of clan vault especially with plat. The clan owner could easily kick everyone else out and steal whatever for themselves. Changing the clan name and their own name to repeat it all over again. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Fire2box

[so_many_watermelons]

About organizing Transporters, manually group them by numbers for now. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[Gesteur]

Each person gets a railjack to decorate and all how they want so each making it seems valid to me. If you're not getting resources fast enough get a resource booster. I bought the booster from Baro when the update was released but only needed it to speed up getting the mined resources.

With being able to ride the stiff working on the railjack it would be cool to do the same with the ships in the dry dock (if you haven't tried you fall through them). 

I'm not in control of building anything clan related but with how big the dry dock is it would be nice if DE was able to give clans a one time way to rearrange the rooms so the older clans can have the same planning/decorating abilities as ones made after dry dock release (some people put a lot of time and effort into making there dojo flow nicely and would be sad for some to have to break things down to rebuild around the dry dock).

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Gesteur

[Ceolrus]

I get this feeling some of you aren't quite reading the whole thing (or being very selective of what is being said).

4 hours ago, Gesteur said:

If you're not getting resources fast enough get a resource booster.

Not to single you out, just this sentiment some share. It's not a matter of being able to gather fast enough (we can gather fast enough and have plenty of time to do it slowly as well), just a suggestion for clan resource for those who want to unload their excess for their friends or prep for the future (maybe you figure you might quit in the future and want to open those resources to your clan mates for more than clan research).

6 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

What I personaly would like if DE gaved us an option to help out with players own efforst , if I have friend who is new and strugling on its own I wouldnt mind offloading some of mine personal resources , this however should be kept away from clan treasury to avoid abuse .

I can see why you have reservations about abuse in the clan vault. I had some suggestion above on how to maybe address them, but I would like to hear any ideas you have as well to add onto/change what I was thinking of.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

ya but alot of people in the warframe community are quite helpful an so a player could join saying can i get a care package of so an so resources...........*leaves clan an tries with another*

That's why I also suggested above to having minimum contributions/activities with a clan first, no freebies. Plus going through the effort of joining a clan, crafting a key, grabbing common resources, and leaving to do it all again seems like a lot more effort than just farming it yourself, even with a PUG it would be easier than all that roundabout stealing.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

ya but having a 3rd party resource trading system for players ruins the farming an would also lead to people hacking accounts to enemy a players entire rescource inventory into a clan an then invite there account or another hacked account tranfser them to it.

Ruins for who? If you like farming you can farm. If you don't you can request some help, but no one is obligated to give you those resources. I don't see much evidence towards hacking community rising in Warframe (I could be wrong), but I believe DE is able to handle situations involving most purported hackers.

 

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

player could have been founding member of the 10 when clan was ghost an now is storm. they been away an dont like how clan grew an want more than what they put into the clan.
the player could still be a warlord an the player that is the founding warlord not around an so this one thats demanding materials could start ruining the dojo till he gets what he wants an not really much DE could do to stop them based on past experiences with inner clan troubles i reported.

I can see why this would be an issue with someone sabotaging/holding the clan hostage. What do you think might solve these problems? If DE were able to, say, do more to solve inner clan troubles and maybe revert any damage a troublemaker would cause, would that help?

6 hours ago, Fire2box said:

But why? You could of just kept them yourselves and if they were needed, give them to clan. There's a reason it's called donation. 

As for extracting material out of clan vault especially with plat. The clan owner could easily kick everyone else out and steal whatever for themselves. Changing the clan name and their own name to repeat it all over again. 

It wasn't a matter of misunderstanding what a donation means. I thought it was needed for the clan, that's why. Yes I made the mistake of assuming based on lack of information, but that's why we also figured why not? If it had in fact been clan research based, there is no compelling argument for why or why not, and things would've been fine. I'd still be making this suggestion.

As for your second part, I addressed that by suggesting that kicking a player would (in most circumstances) remove their resources from the clan. If I put in 200plat and got kicked, then that plat is now useless. Sure someone could trick unsuspecting players into giving up their resources and kicking them to troll, but that's something players can already do. In fact the voiding of resources from kicked players would address the issue of anyone kicking players to gather clan resources by making it useless.

5 hours ago, so_many_watermelons said:

About organizing Transporters, manually group them by numbers for now. 

Oh I know that, I just figured this could be a nice QoL change suggestion for the future.

4 hours ago, Gesteur said:

I'm not in control of building anything clan related but with how big the dry dock is it would be nice if DE was able to give clans a one time way to rearrange the rooms so the older clans can have the same planning/decorating abilities as ones made after dry dock release (some people put a lot of time and effort into making there dojo flow nicely and would be sad for some to have to break things down to rebuild around the dry dock).

The ability to freely rearrange rooms would be great. We'll pray and see if we ever get that in the future.

8 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

You have the right mindset, if you'd like to join a clan that has 6 dojos to choose from, with everything researched, has an active discord, friendly players etc just message me.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate that, but I'll have to decline. Our tiny Ghost clan is made of IRL friends (we've been friends for years and all live in the same neighborhood). A few of use are just too busy or not as motivated anymore. The two of us have more free time and income to support the rest of our friends. The only thing we're missing is the Hema cause it's not a priority of ours.

[Fire2box]

Just now, Ceolrus said:

Sure someone could trick unsuspecting players into giving up their resources and kicking them to troll, but that's something players can already do.

Yes. But the end result is the donated items are exclusively for dojo, not personal usage. I just gotta say, letting people withdraw not just their personal contributions but other people's as well from clan vault is the worst suggestion for Warframe I've heard asides from "bring back paid revives."

[Ceolrus]

50 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

I just gotta say, letting people withdraw not just their personal contributions but other people's as well from clan vault...

As I noted in my initial post, other peoples’ contributions will always require approval (notify/ask all other players who contributed). No one is just freely able to take other’s contributions. A player has to explain why they want to withdraw those resources. Maybe your own resources can be freely withdrawn if your clan chooses that option, but that’s why I also suggested other options be available so that players can set clan rules from a set of rules that are always known when joining a clan (much like how some games allow the distinction between casual and hardcore)

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ceolrus
Clarification