DE's questionable lRoadmap

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I have to disagree here. Looking at the chart again, the 2018-2019 years were the same years where YouTuber vets like Rio decided to begin a negative campaign due to the lack of endgame content. That negativity expanded progressively to false but click-baiting headlines like "content drought", "nothing to do", "warframe is dying", "I'm quitting", etc. Fast forward to now, with PLENTY of things to do, the dark cloud over youtubers and some posters now go so far as to complain about not getting rewards easily, not being able to one shot enemies in Railjack and having to work for better rewards. 

I think the only thing that says is that those negative campaigns didn't really have an influence on player numbers, at least not at the time, as opposed to the recent updates that did. I also don't think the issues you're listing here are really accurate in portraying the major complaints players in general are making of Railjack, and overall it feels more like you're trying to misrepresent critics of DE as entitled, lazy, and inconsistent: recent complaints about the loot for example aren't about not getting the loot easily, for example, but about the loot being gated by a double whammy of ultra-low RNG drops and now RNG stats, the latter of which no-one expected from the mode. Similarly, it's now common knowledge that certain MKIII parts are essential in order for Railjacks to be usable, and that the healing mechanic attached to high-level enemies itself imposes a pretty harsh gear check. As such, were you to read player complaints in slightly less oppositional manner, you'd see that they're not complaining about rewards not being handed to them on a silver platter, or the game being too difficult, but are instead pointing out serious balance issues and a reward system that is ultimately not difficult, just tedious.

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 17 heures, (XB1)Erudite Prime a dit :

Have you heard of the trading mechanic?

Trading is linked to your mr. The possibility of dropping valuable rare is often linked to your progression on the starchart that can be slow for player with limited time. 

Warframe is free if you can spend more time in it than in your daily work.

[ciTiger]

I'm fine with the Roadmap, it's a guideline not a promise.

I dislikes half baked untested content riddle with bugs and several layers of RNG, if only the released content was in proper state from the get go.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think the only thing that says is that those negative campaigns didn't really have an influence on player numbers, at least not at the time, as opposed to the recent updates that did. I also don't think the issues you're listing here are really accurate in portraying the major complaints players in general are making of Railjack, and overall it feels more like you're trying to misrepresent critics of DE as entitled, lazy, and inconsistent: recent complaints about the loot for example aren't about not getting the loot easily, for example, but about the loot being gated by a double whammy of ultra-low RNG drops and now RNG stats, the latter of which no-one expected from the mode. Similarly, it's now common knowledge that certain MKIII parts are essential in order for Railjacks to be usable, and that the healing mechanic attached to high-level enemies itself imposes a pretty harsh gear check. As such, were you to read player complaints in slightly less oppositional manner, you'd see that they're not complaining about rewards not being handed to them on a silver platter, or the game being too difficult, but are instead pointing out serious balance issues and a reward system that is ultimately not difficult, just tedious.

Trying to misrepresent? No. Take a look at Brozime's recent video on Railjack along with many of the comments posted there. That's not a misrepresentation. Borderlands uses almost the exact same concept except it just throws in more lower tiered weapons among the loot, giving the image of a big score while Warframe gives more resources to build stuff. 

In regards to the complaints with mod rng, welcome to Warframe. Farming for the ultimate mod, rolling the ultimate riven, getting the ultimate kuva weapon, these are all the quest to get to overpowered. If it's not difficult but tedious, then why do you NEED to get it? It's not necessary then, right? You want it because it exist and you MUST find it and have it. It's another reward in the hundreds of rewards available in this game and yet another way to get it. I see no issue with this. Now, if it was mandatory for progression, then and only then would I see an issue with drop chances.

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Trying to misrepresent? No. Take a look at Brozime's recent video on Railjack along with many of the comments posted there. That's not a misrepresentation. Borderlands uses almost the exact same concept except it just throws in more lower tiered weapons among the loot, giving the image of a big score while Warframe gives more resources to build stuff. 

I did, actually, and the first five seconds are enough to show you are misrepresenting his opinion, as the bulletpoint list easily confirms. Not only that, but you have also completely missed the entire point of Borderlands' loot system, in that it showers the player with loot precisely because that is the only way to make RNG-statted items bearable. Not only that, but it and similar games, like Diablo 3, also specifically make sure to give the player a consistent influx of usable items, unlike Empyrean, whose 2% rewards may give such bad rolls that the resulting items are worse than their lower-mark versions.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

In regards to the complaints with mod rng, welcome to Warframe. Farming for the ultimate mod, rolling the ultimate riven, getting the ultimate kuva weapon, these are all the quest to get to overpowered. If it's not difficult but tedious, then why do you NEED to get it? It's not necessary then, right? You want it because it exist and you MUST find it and have it. It's another reward in the hundreds of rewards available in this game and yet another way to get it. I see no issue with this. Now, if it was mandatory for progression, then and only then would I see an issue with drop chances.

Define "mandatory" in the context of Warframe. Warframe does not force the player to do anything (and, more broadly, no video game does, as the player can stop whenever), but it certainly incentivizes the player to progress, and get more powerful. In this particular case, though, unlike Rivens, which are a luxury item, good rolls on Railjack items are necessary in order to get the thing working properly, largely because baseline RJ is incredibly weak and not very useful. Those items may not give Mastery, but certain late-game missions certainly do have items that do. Even if none of that existed, though, that would still not prevent there from being a problem, because no game should aim to be tedious. Excusing the tediousness of a game system, on the grounds that one can choose to pretend it doesn't exist and abandon a whole lot of content in the process, is not a particularly good argument to make in the broader context of that game's design problems.

[SneakyErvin]

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I did, actually, and the first five seconds are enough to show you are misrepresenting his opinion, as the bulletpoint list easily confirms. Not only that, but you have also completely missed the entire point of Borderlands' loot system, in that it showers the player with loot precisely because that is the only way to make RNG-statted items bearable. Not only that, but it and similar games, like Diablo 3, also specifically make sure to give the player a consistent influx of usable items, unlike Empyrean, whose 2% rewards may give such bad rolls that the resulting items are worse than their lower-mark versions.

That also happens in borderlands quite frequently and it is a thing in D3 aswell when you hit max level. In borderlands it is very common because each item has so many more affix posibilities, so you can hunt for a specific item for a long time in order to get something better than your lower level one. In D3 it starts at endgame by having stat ranges on legendary perks aswell as a multitude of primary and secondary stats, out of which you can only ever reroll 1.

In WF we are talking about a 2% drop chance, roughly the same as some of the most wanted items in BL and D3. But in WF we have very specific affixes that can roll, that doesnt have to compete with 10 others on the same item. So here we just hope for the right item with the right stat range roll. In the others you hope for the right item aswell as the right affixes in addition to the right stat roll range ontop of that. Not to mention how much more important every little piece of gear is in D3 to make a build work.

We have RNG on 3 gear slots for a total of 9 different items. In diablo you have 10 different gear slots where 7 of them can roll as 3-5 different sets and you can get so unlucky that the thing that drops isnt even for your class. Not to mention all the absolutely worthless items that also waters down the loot pool for several slots, like Nagelring, Puzzle Ring and so on.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That also happens in borderlands quite frequently and it is a thing in D3 aswell when you hit max level. In borderlands it is very common because each item has so many more affix posibilities, so you can hunt for a specific item for a long time in order to get something better than your lower level one. In D3 it starts at endgame by having stat ranges on legendary perks aswell as a multitude of primary and secondary stats, out of which you can only ever reroll 1.

There is a rather significant difference between looking for a specific item simply for build purposes, and looking for a specific item because it's the only one worth picking at all. There is more than one item to be hunted at a time in Borderlands and DR, and those systems also have a plethora of mechanics that let the player still advance themselves even when they don't get the drop they want.

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In WF we are talking about a 2% drop chance, roughly the same as some of the most wanted items in BL and D3. But in WF we have very specific affixes that can roll, that doesnt have to compete with 10 others on the same item. So here we just hope for the right item with the right stat range roll. In the others you hope for the right item aswell as the right affixes in addition to the right stat roll range ontop of that. Not to mention how much more important every little piece of gear is in D3 to make a build work.

This fundamentally misunderstands how RNG works, and what the problem currently is with bad rolls on randomly-statted items. The number of random affixes doesn't matter, what matters is that the player can roll awful numbers on their ultra-rare item.

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We have RNG on 3 gear slots for a total of 9 different items. In diablo you have 10 different gear slots where 7 of them can roll as 3-5 different sets and you can get so unlucky that the thing that drops isnt even for your class. Not to mention all the absolutely worthless items that also waters down the loot pool for several slots, like Nagelring, Puzzle Ring and so on.

All of those worthless items can still be broken down to work towards other systems of advancement, and ultimately the player isn't playing for a single item at a time. By contrast, Warframe will have the player play specifically for a chance at a single item, which has a tiny chance to drop, only for that item to also have a high chance to have useless stats. Unlike those games, there is no pity timer, but also no compensatory system. The player's time is wasted entirely.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

There is a rather difference between looking for a specific item simply for build purposes, and looking for a specific item because it's the only one worth picking at all. There is more than one item to be hunted at a time in Borderlands and DR, and those systems also have a plethora of mechanics that let the player still advance themselves even when they don't get the drop they want.

This fundamentally misunderstands how RNG works, and what the problem currently is with bad rolls on randomly-statted items. The number of random affixes doesn't matter, what matters is that the player can roll awful numbers on their ultra-rare item.

All of those worthless items can still be broken down to work towards other systems of advancement, and ultimately the player isn't playing for a single item at a time. By contrast, Warframe will have the player play specifically for a chance at a single item, which has a tiny chance to drop, only for that item to also have a high chance to have useless stats. Unlike those games, there is no pity timer, but also no compensatory system. The player's time is wasted entirely.

Neither BL or D3 offer a plethora of mechanics to let the player advance, unless you talk about pre-endgame. When you actually hit the endgame in those games and wanna min-max to push the furthest and get the most efficienvy out of your runs, then no, no mechanics will help you. It is about finding the best gear to kill as efficiently as possible. The items of BL and D3 have an impact on player potential that overshadows the need for a Vidar reactor several times over. We can get to what would be considered efficient endgame farming in the other games by simply picking up a sigma mk3 and picking the slighly lower cosing avionic or skipping tactical avionics and get near the same performance with those 50 less capacity.

The people complaining about the reactors are complaining about min-maxed builds being hard to do. Endgame builds however that are just as efficient are dirt easy to build, since we have access to the dojo items. Both Zetki engines and shields will last you well into your min-maxing and perform perfectly in endgame.

The number of random affixes matter alot when only 2-3 out of 15 or so are desired. Which is the case in D3 and BL. And an item with 2% drop chance isnt ultra rare, it is pretty normal when it comes to min-max items. You have a bigger chance getting a perfect vidar reactor here than getting a perfect primal ancient in D3. The thing is, here in WF we get our legendaries with guaranteed rolls i.e the dojo items. You and others are complaining about ancients and primal ancients being too hard to get.

No really they cant, not for anything worthwhile whatsoever. The things that you actually need are obtained in missions that would equal grinding lith level missions for hour in order to get a chance at one single roll on an item. We are also grinding for several items here at once, because we have avionics and weapons aswell. It is just that only one of the items we want is based heavily on RNG while the other games have everything based on heavy RNG. I honestly cant count the number of guns I've discarded in BL when running the same boss or specific mob over and over for a 5 level higher upgrade to come out with worse performance due to the affixes. And when I've finaly gotten it I've been so close to level that the gun is no more the optimal choice and I need to regrind if 4 levels later. Neither of those games have any pity systems or compensative systems whatsoever. Unless of course you think scrapping unwated items actually matter is D3. There is a time when you'll have so much crap due to getting showered with S#&$ that you'll have no way of even using it all, since if you wanna use it you are forced into the most trivial content possible to get the other mats needed. That is not what I'd consider compensation or pity. And in BL there is nothing you can do with crap loot except selling it or shoving it over to an alt.

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

pre-endgame. 

Your posts in a nutshell.

[Teridax68]

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Neither BL or D3 offer a plethora of mechanics to let the player advance, unless you talk about pre-endgame. When you actually hit the endgame in those games and wanna min-max to push the furthest and get the most efficienvy out of your runs, then no, no mechanics will help you. It is about finding the best gear to kill as efficiently as possible. The items of BL and D3 have an impact on player potential that overshadows the need for a Vidar reactor several times over. We can get to what would be considered efficient endgame farming in the other games by simply picking up a sigma mk3 and picking the slighly lower cosing avionic or skipping tactical avionics and get near the same performance with those 50 less capacity.

"Endgame" in D3 is about pushing Paragon levels, though, and BL ends up focusing on legendary weapons, whose unique traits are fixed, so you are talking complete guff here. Beyond that, though, you are also wrong in that even mediocre items in those games can still be enough to keep the player afloat, even if they're obviously not going to be the best. By contrast, those Railjack items are essential to be able to do anything with one's RJ, making the system in Warframe significantly more brittle. This is compounded by the fact that Diablo and BL shower the player in loot (so it's easy to pick up something useful), whereas Warframe has the player run missions for a mere chance of obtaining usable loot. Thus, Railjack combines the worst of both worlds, making the player grind extensively for an extremely low chance at an item, whose stats may roll so terribly that it becomes entirely useless. 

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The people complaining about the reactors are complaining about min-maxed builds being hard to do. Endgame builds however that are just as efficient are dirt easy to build, since we have access to the dojo items. Both Zetki engines and shields will last you well into your min-maxing and perform perfectly in endgame.

This is also a lie, as the people complaining are clearly pointing out that base Railjack is far too weak, and requires high-level components to have a decent chance of functioning on its own. This is, once again, in stark contrast to the Empyrean demo we got last year, which showed players able to comfortably include their Railjack in combat throughout.

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The number of random affixes matter alot when only 2-3 out of 15 or so are desired. Which is the case in D3 and BL. And an item with 2% drop chance isnt ultra rare, it is pretty normal when it comes to min-max items. You have a bigger chance getting a perfect vidar reactor here than getting a perfect primal ancient in D3. The thing is, here in WF we get our legendaries with guaranteed rolls i.e the dojo items. You and others are complaining about ancients and primal ancients being too hard to get.

You have visibly played neither game, as you are clearly unaware that legendary items have set affixes, which in D3 can themselves be extracted and equipped onto new items. Oh, and that same system in D3 also lets the player reforge items into Ancient and Primal Ancient versions, so is always relevant. While the latter are much rarer items, they aren't mandatory for one's character to work, either, particularly as Paragon levelling smooths out the differences significantly, whereas those Railjack items are. If D3 made it impossible for one's character to function properly without Primal Ancients, or even just Legendaries, there would be a problem, and that is the same problem currently affecting Railjack.

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No really they cant, not for anything worthwhile whatsoever. The things that you actually need are obtained in missions that would equal grinding lith level missions for hour in order to get a chance at one single roll on an item.

See above on Kanai's Cube and how grinding in D3 provides steady progress no matter what. Perhaps also try playing the games you're feigning expertise on sometime.

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We are also grinding for several items here at once, because we have avionics and weapons aswell. It is just that only one of the items we want is based heavily on RNG while the other games have everything based on heavy RNG.

Yes, and those games compensate by giving the player tons more loot and compensatory systems to mitigate bad RNG. Warframe has none of these.

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I honestly cant count the number of guns I've discarded in BL when running the same boss or specific mob over and over for a 5 level higher upgrade to come out with worse performance due to the affixes. And when I've finaly gotten it I've been so close to level that the gun is no more the optimal choice and I need to regrind if 4 levels later.

Have you considered the possibility that you may be playing the game wrong?

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Neither of those games have any pity systems or compensative systems whatsoever. Unless of course you think scrapping unwated items actually matter is D3. There is a time when you'll have so much crap due to getting showered with S#&$ that you'll have no way of even using it all, since if you wanna use it you are forced into the most trivial content possible to get the other mats needed. That is not what I'd consider compensation or pity. And in BL there is nothing you can do with crap loot except selling it or shoving it over to an alt.

Well yes, they do, because they give the player plenty of usable loot, and those mats actually do matter in D3 thanks to the aforementioned systems. On top of that D3 literally has a pity timer on Legendary drops so the player is guaranteed to get a Legendary item if they go too long without. Once again, you have managed to produce an entire reply where nothing you have said is true or worth reading, all under this bizarre attempt to make two games famous for their loot systems appear worse than this game whose most recent loot system has been excoriated. Because somehow, that will make Railjack's unpopular RNG-statted items good all of a sudden.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

"Endgame" in D3 is about pushing Paragon levels, though, and BL ends up focusing on legendary weapons, whose unique traits are fixed, so you are talking complete guff here. Beyond that, though, you are also wrong in that even mediocre items in those games can still be enough to keep the player afloat, even if they're obviously not going to be the best. By contrast, those Railjack items are essential to be able to do anything with one's RJ, making the system in Warframe significantly more brittle. This is compounded by the fact that Diablo and BL shower the player in loot (so it's easy to pick up something useful), whereas Warframe has the player run missions for a mere chance of obtaining usable loot. Thus, Railjack combines the worst of both worlds, making the player grind extensively for an extremely low chance at an item, whose stats may roll so terribly that it becomes entirely useless. 

This is also a lie, as the people complaining are clearly pointing out that base Railjack is far too weak, and requires high-level components to have a decent chance of functioning on its own. This is, once again, in stark contrast to the Empyrean demo we got last year, which showed players able to comfortably include their Railjack in combat throughout.

You have visibly played neither game, as you are clearly unaware that legendary items have set affixes, which in D3 can themselves be extracted and equipped onto new items. Oh, and that same system in D3 also lets the player reforge items into Ancient and Primal Ancient versions, so is always relevant. While the latter are much rarer items, they aren't mandatory for one's character to work, either, particularly as Paragon levelling smooths out the differences significantly, whereas those Railjack items are. If D3 made it impossible for one's character to function properly without Primal Ancients, or even just Legendaries, there would be a problem, and that is the same problem currently affecting Railjack.

See above on Kanai's Cube and how grinding in D3 provides steady progress no matter what. Perhaps also try playing the games you're feigning expertise on sometime.

Yes, and those games compensate by giving the player tons more loot and compensatory systems to mitigate bad RNG. Warframe has none of these.

Have you considered the possibility that you may be playing the game wrong?

Well yes, they do, because they give the player plenty of usable loot, and those mats actually do matter in D3 thanks to the aforementioned systems. On top of that D3 literally has a pity timer on Legendary drops so the player is guaranteed to get a Legendary item if they go too long without. Once again, you have managed to produce an entire reply where nothing you have said is true or worth reading, all under this bizarre attempt to make two games famous for their loot systems appear worse than this game whose most recent loot system has been excoriated. Because somehow, that will make Railjack's unpopular RNG-statted items good all of a sudden.

Endgame in D3 is about pushing GRifts, leveling gems, getting primals and then spending point in paragon. And in BL even the legendaries can roll with affixes you dont want, the legendary perk isnt all. And as for keeping you afloat. Yeah sure if you dont care about pushing, if you wanna push you need near perfect rolls. When you do wanna push, those showers of items are meaningless. The items in RJ, the ones that people really want, which is 1 single item i.e the Vidar Reactor is not essential for anything. That reactor is only needed for the luxory mods, those that you dont barely use when you have them equipped eitherway. It is there so you can fill every avionics spot with pointless avionics. That is the opposite of essential. You need the Sigma mk3 reactor, that is it. That gives you enough avionic capacity to slot everything useful that impacts your efficiency when clearing/farming Veil. Everything else rains, because it drops from enemies, Zetki engines and shields drop in abundance.

Also, nice to claim I havent played either game then you go and claim that legendary affixes in D3 can be extracted and placed on other items. How long ago was it since you played? Must have been realy long ago because that isnt even a thing. You can extra up to 3 and use in your cube. And you are talking about 1 single affix on the items, some of which are also RNG based in their stat range. BL has fixed legendary affixes, but they can still, as I mentioned uptop, roll with other affixes in different ranges, which potentially screw up your drop. You also cannot reforge, it is a gamble, the ancient you pop in may come out as a normal, just as a newly "crafted" item can come out as normal or primal. You also need massive amounts of mats for it that are an utter chore to grind.

[Cloud]

On 2019-12-29 at 7:52 AM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, I remember.  I super remember.  

I run through the "new player experience" nearly monthly.  I've watched dozens of people quit out of frustration with certain aspects (This game is not free, I do not care what anyone says.  If you don't spend money to get slots in your first few MR ranks you are going to have a BAD time.) like slots, time-gates, and the sheer grind of getting through the star chart, which is the same handful of missions on the same handful of tilesets over and over, just so they can get to the late game fun, like Railjack and Eidolon hunts and living the power fantasy of nuking the whole map. 

I watch them quit because of how confusing everything is, and how little of it is explained.  I'm a wiki guy.  I love wikis, and I use them all the time, so this wasn't a problem for me, though it did cause me to spoil a few things for myself.  A lot of people are not wiki people, and the fact that so little is explained and even more is explained poorly really doesn't help new players out.  Their obsession with hiding things in the UI only makes this worse.  I have explained the modding system so many times at this point that I could give a class on it. 

People don't understand that the only thing new players can do for the first several mastery ranks is just plow through the starchart and farm mods and level gear.  That's the new player experience right now.  Solo playing star chart mission after star chart mission while leveling total MR fodder with no mods and super limited capacity for the mods they do have.  The whole system early on is crafted around getting players to waste potatoes on trash weapons and basic frames just so they can stick a half leveled Vitality or Serration on it.  When you're MR 28 and you can fit half a build on something with one polarity while it's fresh out of the foundry you forget what it was like starting a weapon with literally 4 capacity, running all the way back to the Lith Defense node on Earth because it's the only thing your unranked, unmodded Boltor can handle at MR4.

A sweet new cinematic isn't going to fix any of that.

Never spent a single coin on this game and I've played since the very start.

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Endgame in D3 is about pushing GRifts, leveling gems, getting primals and then spending point in paragon.

Yes, which therefore involves reforging items into Primals, and then subsequently enchanting them. Boom, compensatory systems.

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And in BL even the legendaries can roll with affixes you dont want, the legendary perk isnt all. And as for keeping you afloat. Yeah sure if you dont care about pushing, if you wanna push you need near perfect rolls. When you do wanna push, those showers of items are meaningless.

So, by your own admission, the random affixes only become a problem to ultra-perfectionists who otherwise have no real incentive to min-max. This is therefore different from requiring a good or perfect roll on a rare drop just for it to make one's Railjack usable.

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The items in RJ, the ones that people really want, which is 1 single item i.e the Vidar Reactor is not essential for anything. That reactor is only needed for the luxory mods, those that you dont barely use when you have them equipped eitherway. It is there so you can fill every avionics spot with pointless avionics. That is the opposite of essential. You need the Sigma mk3 reactor, that is it. That gives you enough avionic capacity to slot everything useful that impacts your efficiency when clearing/farming Veil. Everything else rains, because it drops from enemies, Zetki engines and shields drop in abundance.

"luxory" (sic) is an interesting word to use when Railjacks are notoriously fragile and impotent without those specific components. Do you not find it even slightly strange that people largely abandon the centerpiece of the new mode because using it is not worth the risk?

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Also, nice to claim I havent played either game then you go and claim that legendary affixes in D3 can be extracted and placed on other items. How long ago was it since you played? Must have been realy long ago because that isnt even a thing. You can extra up to 3 and use in your cube. And you are talking about 1 single affix on the items, some of which are also RNG based in their stat range.

Thank you for once again proving my point, as Kanai's Cube exclusively equips the highest possible roll of the chosen power. You clearly took a hasty look at a wiki here in an attempt to justify yourself, all while still being disproven on your claim that D3 lacks fallback systems for loot.

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BL has fixed legendary affixes, but they can still, as I mentioned uptop, roll with other affixes in different ranges, which potentially screw up your drop. You also cannot reforge, it is a gamble, the ancient you pop in may come out as a normal, just as a newly "crafted" item can come out as normal or primal. You also need massive amounts of mats for it that are an utter chore to grind.

So there are in fact compensatory systems by your own admission. You have, once again, been caught lying, in a discussion that has become so far removed from the main topic it's a wonder you're still arguing.

Oh, and while we're here:

On 2020-01-04 at 1:02 PM, SneakyErvin said:

This is my last answer to you

Since then you have produced five additional responses, several of which were quite verbose, though only two of which were even remotely relevant to the issue of DE's 2019 roadmap, and the discrepancy between their promises and reality. Why are you even still here?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, which therefore involves reforging items into Primals, and then subsequently enchanting them. Boom, compensatory systems.

So, by your own admission, the random affixes only become a problem to ultra-perfectionists who otherwise have no real incentive to min-max. This is therefore different from requiring a good or perfect roll on a rare drop just for it to make one's Railjack usable.

"luxory" (sic) is an interesting word to use when Railjacks are notoriously fragile and impotent without those specific components. Do you not find it even slightly strange that people largely abandon the centerpiece of the new mode because using it is not worth the risk?

Thank you for once again proving my point, as Kanai's Cube exclusively equips the highest possible roll of the chosen power. You clearly took a hasty look at a wiki here in an attempt to justify yourself, all while still being disproven on your claim that D3 lacks fallback systems for loot.

So there are in fact compensatory systems by your own admission. You have, once again, been caught lying, in a discussion that has become so far removed from the main topic it's a wonder you're still arguing.

Oh, and while we're here:

Since then you have produced five additional responses, several of which were quite verbose, though only two of which were even remotely relevant to the issue of DE's 2019 roadmap, and the discrepancy between their promises and reality. Why are you even still here?

But that is the whole thing lol. You dont need a rare drop or perfect roll to make your RJ usable since all that is achieved by a guaranteed 50 capacity reactor from your dojo. Zero RNG involved to get that. And it is luxory, because you can skip the luxory items in order to focus on your useful avionics. Tactical avionics will do jack squat for you, it wont make it less fragile, it wont make it perform better. Not that you need a RJ with more than base health, even in Veil. Heck, people willingly build base hull RJs and do wonderfully with them while playing around last stand. So no one needs that Vidar Reactor except in order to absolutely min-max.

As for D3 and compnesatory system. They really arent because if you wanna make use of the you need to play unrewarding content that neither provides xp or progress in other ways since at the point when you can finaly obtain primals, you are so far and above the levels of bounties. Although, slightly less tedious now with slightly more torment levels. Also no, I didnt need to look at some wiki, although I assume you have since you still dont really understand the full system. Kenai's Cube enhancements are dedicated for specific items in your build, those are the only 3 guaranteed top rolls you'll have. It still leaves you with 11-12 slots you need to grind where everything is RNG based. So it isnt just to take any item and use kenai's as a compensatory solution, it is about taking the correct items and slotting it there to make your build work. It comes down to knowing exactly which ring or neck to use equipped and which neck or ring to spend your cube slot on. This is because the rings and necks come with other stats outside of the legendary affix, stats the neck may have that you need that arent available on the rings you have planned for your build. So it isnt a simple swap when you get a bad roll of one and a perfect of the other.

So in the end, WF is far more forgiving and generous, both when it comes to midgame aswell as endgame min-maxing.

Maybe you should go play a little RJ before complaining about it?

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that is the whole thing lol. You dont need a rare drop or perfect roll to make your RJ usable since all that is achieved by a guaranteed 50 capacity reactor from your dojo. Zero RNG involved to get that. And it is luxory, because you can skip the luxory items in order to focus on your useful avionics. Tactical avionics will do jack squat for you, it wont make it less fragile, it wont make it perform better. Not that you need a RJ with more than base health, even in Veil. Heck, people willingly build base hull RJs and do wonderfully with them while playing around last stand. So no one needs that Vidar Reactor except in order to absolutely min-max.

This is all just straight-up lying, as players have clearly pointed out the balance issues with Railjack that compel people to seek out those high-level components for the thing to be usable.

Quote

As for D3 and compnesatory system. They really arent because if you wanna make use of the you need to play unrewarding content that neither provides xp or progress in other ways since at the point when you can finaly obtain primals, you are so far and above the levels of bounties. Although, slightly less tedious now with slightly more torment levels. Also no, I didnt need to look at some wiki, although I assume you have since you still dont really understand the full system. Kenai's Cube enhancements are dedicated for specific items in your build, those are the only 3 guaranteed top rolls you'll have. It still leaves you with 11-12 slots you need to grind where everything is RNG based. So it isnt just to take any item and use kenai's as a compensatory solution, it is about taking the correct items and slotting it there to make your build work. It comes down to knowing exactly which ring or neck to use equipped and which neck or ring to spend your cube slot on. This is because the rings and necks come with other stats outside of the legendary affix, stats the neck may have that you need that arent available on the rings you have planned for your build. So it isnt a simple swap when you get a bad roll of one and a perfect of the other.

You claim that D3 has no compensatory systems right as you list several within this very paragraph (the guaranteed rolls with Kanai's Cube, XP, Torment levels). Your point is not only false, it proved itself wrong.

Quote

So in the end, WF is far more forgiving and generous, both when it comes to midgame aswell as endgame min-maxing.

Maybe you should go play a little RJ before complaining about it?

I would suggest you do so first, as your reply is once again so completely beside reality it raises the question as who you expect to actually believe you. Really, who do you expect to convince with any of this? You know I only care about concrete facts and evidence, and the only other people who still pay attention to what you have to say openly mock your posts. If this is all you have to say, why break your promise not to reply any further? 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Teridax68

[Aggh]

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is all just straight-up lying, as players have clearly pointed out the balance issues with Railjack that compel people to seek out those high-level components for the thing to be usable.

No, he's not lying.  +50 avionics is plenty for running the veil right now.  Decent Mk III weapons are not all that hard to get either.   You can easily get by on vidar avionics.  The only thing that is time consuming is farming for really good rolls and zekti avionics, and those make things easier, they are not necessary to for a playable experience.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Aggh

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 8 heures, Cloud a dit :

Never spent a single coin on this game and I've played since the very start.

That's the issue. People who started long time ago may not be aware but actual Warframe new player experience can be heavily platinum gated due to mr lock and starchart.

You cannot earn platinum easily if you start as a totally new player in 2019. 

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

il y a 20 minutes, Aggh a dit :

they are not necessary to for a playable experience.

Playable experience ? Are we so bottom down that playable experience is something we must be satisfied with today ? 

Edited January 8, 2020 by (PS4)Herrwann69

[Aggh]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Playable experience ? Are we so bottom down that playable experience is something we must be satisfied with today ? 

You have to try pretty hard to fail a mission with vidar avionics and mkIII guns, none of which are particularly hard to get.   Anyone that thinks that they need high roll vidar reactor and perfectly rolled guns to run veil missions is being melodramatic. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Aggh

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

il y a 23 minutes, Aggh a dit :

You have to try pretty hard to fail a mission with vidar avionics and mkIII guns, none of which are particularly hard to get.   Anyone that thinks that they need high roll vidar reactor and perfectly rolled guns to run veil missions is being melodramatic. 

Then why lock them behind heavy grind for ressources + rng for drop + rng for roll + time for craft if they are nothing useful ?

[Aggh]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Then why lock them behind heavy grind for ressources + rng for drop + rng for roll + time for craft if they are nothing useful ?

Are you seriously asking why a loot shooter has grind and RNG?  No one said they're not useful, they're just not as necessary as the OP says they are.  Also, is a twelve hour crafting time really that insane?  It's hardly anything new for the game.  It's half the time of many weapons in the game.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Aggh

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

il y a 21 minutes, Aggh a dit :

Are you seriously asking why a loot shooter has grind and RNG?  No one said they're not useful, they're just not as necessary as the OP says they are.  Also, is a twelve hour crafting time really that insane?  It's hardly anything new for the game.  It's half the time of many weapons in the game.

It's the first time that you need craft time and resources on top of rng loot and rng roll. Rng loot + rng roll are ok for free to use immediately items that drop in huge quantity (Diablo, Borderlands and co), time gate and resources cost are ok for static and definitives stats as Warframe was until end of 2019.

It's the worst of both systems without the good.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

luxory" (sic) is an interesting word to use when Railjacks are notoriously fragile and impotent without those specific components. Do you not find it even slightly strange that people largely abandon the centerpiece of the new mode because using it is not worth the risk?

People? No, perhaps you chose to do that but I did not. In fact, most of your points seem to be based off of solo play. If that's the case, or you're using other forum posts for your data, I find it strange that a Veil level mod is involved in a conversation regarding Railjack's fragility. If one is farming at the highest current levels, that implies that the player's equipment is sufficient enough to conquer those levels. I'm having no trouble using the base MKIII versions. Also keep in mind, players are finding it "tedious" not difficult, meaning the ultra rare parts aren't necessary.

As for the loot drops in bl3 and d3, what do you do with the 99% fodder weapons? You sale them, right? Those weapons usually don't allow for any setup options. This is not the case in WF.

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, Aggh said:

No, he's not lying.  +50 avionics is plenty for running the veil right now.  Decent Mk III weapons are not all that hard to get either.   You can easily get by on vidar avionics.  The only thing that is time consuming is farming for really good rolls and zekti avionics, and those make things easier, they are not necessary to for a playable experience.

I don't have to say much more here, as this response was met with immediate disagreement from others. As said already, your response itself also presumes that even with the lowered standard you are setting, it is necessary to grind just for Railjacks to be usable, to say nothing of how RNG stats prolong the grind in ways most players have been finding unpleasant.

3 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

People? No, perhaps you chose to do that but I did not. In fact, most of your points seem to be based off of solo play. If that's the case, or you're using other forum posts for your data, I find it strange that a Veil level mod is involved in a conversation regarding Railjack's fragility. If one is farming at the highest current levels, that implies that the player's equipment is sufficient enough to conquer those levels. I'm having no trouble using the base MKIII versions. Also keep in mind, players are finding it "tedious" not difficult, meaning the ultra rare parts aren't necessary.

Well no, it simply implies that players abandon their Railjack and instead treat missions like regular Archwing content. Like you said, this isn't difficult, but tedious, which is the worst combination to have, and not what I'd consider an acceptable standard, especially when RJ was meant to be the main new addition to those missions.

3 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

As for the loot drops in bl3 and d3, what do you do with the 99% fodder weapons? You sale them, right? Those weapons usually don't allow for any setup options. This is not the case in WF.

When the weapons are so far below what you have, you turn them into currency or resources you can use to acquire other stuff, yes. There is no such system in Warframe, hence one more reason why the grind feels so awful by comparison. This is to say nothing of how BL and Diablo make a point of very quickly giving players usable stuff that is only superseded by exceptional items, thus ensuring the player doesn't hit some gear check wall at the start of play where their character cannot operate properly without some rare drop.

[0_The_F00l]

Let's first categorise the playability and gear check:

Minimum Viable - this kind of gameplay allows you to atleast complete the game  with the gear. It might take a lot more time and you might have multiple failures if things don't go as planned (imagine playing without mods or potatoes) 

Better than viable : this kind of gameplay has a much better chance of success with the gear available, there is still chance of failure, but is unlikely to happen with some minor planning before hand (imagine playing with good mods, but not maxed with no potato) 

Preferred : this kind of gameplay has a very low chance of failure with the gear available (imagine playing with good weapons, mods and potatoes, some may have acceptable rivens) 

The cheese : this is the gameplay used by those that would like to get through with the least amount of effort with the highest chance of success (multiforma top tier weapons and frames with top of the line rivens and arcanes)

 

With that personal categorization, I would say that the Railjack complaints we get are cause people have a minimum viable to better than viable option (sigma variants and mediocre stats on drops and only a few good avionics ) but they are struggling to get a preferred build, while a few lucky people managed to already get into the cheese sheerly cause they were lucky with their drops.

I am one of the lucky few with a preferred build, (82 capacity, decent Zetki engines, good avionics to get to 6k hp and 5 k armor and mk 3 Vidar weapons) 

And the difference between my viable build to my preferred one is very significant.