The changes to gas are a big Saryn nerf, but was this intended ?

[lukinu_u]

First of all, as much as I like her, YES, Saryn always deserve nerfs because she is damn strong, but here, I'm talking about something that may not be intended.

As you probably know, last update made big changes to status and what was done to gas is this :

Gas	The base duration of a Gas Status Effect now matches Slash for 6 seconds. No longer does AoE with forced Poison Status Effect (resulting in Poison DoT for enemies in radius), instead it does AoE DoT Gas damage around the target.

Before this change, gas doing a cloud with a set amount of damage and 100% toxin status chance, and because it was it's own damage instance caused by Saryn weapons, Toxic Lash applied there, so the cloud did additionnal toxin damage equal to Toxic Lash bonus with guaranteed toxin status.
This was problably a bug and as I said earlier I'm all for nerf on too strong Warframes, but it was an interesting synergy between Saryn and gas status (which make sense becaue she is the toxin queen), and most importantly, it was an interesting mechanic to consider when modding and it gave more depth in her gameplay. In Warframe, a lot of changes occure to make everything easier to understand for new and casual players, but at the cost of some cool little mechanics like this one, that help you optimise your loadout if you really take the time to understand a warframe you enjoy.

Most of these "features" were initially bugs like negative stats on Rivens, stacking stealth buffs, Glaive Wukong, or how toxin DoT used to interact with Spores, and most of these deserved a nerf, but even if unbalanced, the idea behind them was super interesting and really made the difference between casual players and those who do testing and try things.

Overall, what I'm saying is most of these "bug feature" are interesting and should be considered, balanced and officially introduced when reworking stuff, because they really make a difference and in a game like Warframe where you are free to play what you want without real restrictions or need to adapt, giving unique almost hidden small mechanics like that to each frame really reward the player for making in depth search and testing to see what loadout fit best with their current Warframe and play style.

[BiancaRoughfin]

Quote

The changes to gas are a big Saryn nerf, but was this intended ?

How, if none of Saryn`s Skills do Gas damage?

Spore == Corrosive
Molt == Toxic
Toxic Lash == Toxic
Miasma == Viral

Edited March 26, 2020 by BiancaRoughfin

[Gailus]

13 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

How, if none of Saryn`s Skills do Gas damage?

Spore == Corrosive
Molt == Blast
Toxic Lash == Toxic
Miasma == Viral

Toxic Lash. 

In the past, the extra damage from Toxic Lash stacked additively with elemental mods, and thus would be taken into account for Gas procs when determining the strength of the DoT.

Now that Gas scales entirely off of base damage and doesn't account for any of the mods involved it also means that Saryn doesn't get the benefit of boosting Gas into the sky with a power strength build.

This somewhat lowers Saryn's build options and further incentivizes nuking builds.

Edit: Well that was all false.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Gailus

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 minutes ago, Gailus said:

Toxic Lash. 

In the past, the extra damage from Toxic Lash stacked additively with elemental mods, and thus would be taken into account for Gas procs when determining the strength of the DoT.

Now that Gas scales entirely off of base damage and doesn't account for any of the mods involved it also means that Saryn doesn't get the benefit of boosting Gas into the sky with a power strength build.

This somewhat lowers Saryn's build options and further incentivizes nuking builds.

Based on the Wiki it never stacked with other elemental mods, it just caused some AoE/DoT effects to proc an additional Toxic damage.

Quote

• The gas cloud from a  Gas proc will cause a second  Toxin proc from Toxic Lash.
• The explosion from mods like  Acid Shells will proc  Toxin while Toxic Lash is active.
• The additional  Toxin damage is a separate instance of damage and does not combine with elemental damage on the weapon.

 

[Gailus]

3 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Based on the Wiki it never stacked with other elemental mods, it just caused some AoE/DoT effects to proc an additional Toxic damage.

Oh interesting. I should have looked into it more thoroughly then.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 29 minutes, BiancaRoughfin a dit :

Based on the Wiki it never stacked with other elemental mods, it just caused some AoE/DoT effects to proc an additional Toxic damage.

Additionnaly to what you quoted, the toxin multiplier (from mods that make gas) was used to calculate toxin lash status.

To make a comparison, let's compare what a gas hit with 100 base damage,a +90% toxin mod and +60% heat mod would look like with and without Toxic Lash (base value, so +30%).

• Without Toxin Lash :
  • Base hit deal 100*(1+0.9+0.6)=250
  • Gas proc does a gas cloud that deal 100*(1.9/2)=95, 9 procs each dealing 100*(1.9/2)^2=90.25, so 95+9*90.25=907.25
  • A total of 250 + 907.25 = 1157.25
     
• With Toxin Lash :
  • Base hit deal 100*(1+0.9+0.6)=250
  • Toxin Lash deal 250*0.3=75 with a guaranteed toxin status that add 9 procs each dealing 75*(1.9/2)=71.25, so 75.25+9*71.25=716.25
  • Gas proc does a gas cloud that deal 100*(1.9/2)=95, 9 procs each dealing 100*(1.9/2)^2=90.25, so 95+9*90.25=907.25
  • On top of that another Toxic Lash instance is created based on weapon damage (not gas cloud damage), which add another 716.25
  • A total of 250 + 716.25 + 907.25 + 716.25 = 2589.75

In this situation adding Toxic Lash multiply your damage output by roughly 2.23x (while it state being a +30% increase) and it could be much stronger with higher stregth, but what is important to consider is the fact not only you get a second toxin proc from gas cloud, but also that toxin into your gas increase the Toxic Lash proc damage (it's true for Corrosive and Viral too).

[(PSN)DISCOgnome83]

Yep I started playing with a Grendel build thinking the toxin bonus damage could build a God of a frame but alas... nerfed in a cruel way 😞 Because everyone is loving Grendel and Gas builds atm!!?

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 hours ago, (PS4)DISCOgnome83 said:

Yep I started playing with a Grendel build thinking the toxin bonus damage could build a God of a frame but alas... nerfed in a cruel way 😞 Because everyone is loving Grendel and Gas builds atm!!?

Seeing as Toxin goes directly through shields, and the high-level Corpus shield-gating can be a little problematic for some players, having frames that deal base Toxic damage is never really a bad thing.

It's not going to work so well on Grineer, but... give it a go on your average Corpus missions.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

On 2020-03-05 at 3:03 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

How, if none of Saryn`s Skills do Gas damage?

Spore == Corrosive
Molt == Blast
Toxic Lash == Toxic
Miasma == Viral

None of Saryn's skills do Blast damage.

[BiancaRoughfin]

On 2020-03-24 at 8:26 PM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

None of Saryn's skills do Blast damage.

Yeah i noticed, someone had edited the Wiki when i read her infos and changed the Toxic damage of her Molt to Blast. Its been fixed now.

Spore == Corrosive
Molt == Toxic
Toxic Lash == Toxic
Miasma == Viral

[(PSN)DISCOgnome83]

On 2020-03-24 at 4:52 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Seeing as Toxin goes directly through shields, and the high-level Corpus shield-gating can be a little problematic for some players, having frames that deal base Toxic damage is never really a bad thing.

It's not going to work so well on Grineer, but... give it a go on your average Corpus missions.

I agree with the above but the exponential damage of the old gas system allowed for some truly end game builds regardless of enemy faction, it's just very few players actually took the time to do the maths 🙂

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DISCOgnome83 said:

but the exponential damage of the old gas system allowed for some truly end game builds regardless of enemy faction

Sadly, I'm one of those old end-game players, I did do the maths on it with the old team, Gas didn't 'exponentially' scale due to the poor range and the massive fall-off against things like Armour, Auras and even the base Robotic health types, compare to the Flesh types. What it did, specifically, was have a high level of damage that could be maintained, meaning that its actual damage cap was high enough that players usually ran out of time before they ran out of damage. However from experience it did have a cap.

The only mechanic that actually scaled, as in truly scaled, in the game was four CP Auras and Mag's old Shield Polarise. The one that just did an instant, non-line-of-sight AoE burst of shields that didn't even need a max-strength build to cause any faction that had Shielded enemies to burst like ripe grapes. This meant that the other three players could literally die and stay on the 'revive' screen (since non-active Auras are not based on whether you're alive or not) and go have a nap or something while the Mag just used her 1 and 2 to infinitely scale.

There is one mechanic left in the game that scales, but cannot be done with only one version of the frame in the squad, and that's the bouncing of Equinox's 4 back and forth between two of them.

Beyond that, nothing actually scales, as it were, the literal best we can manage is to keep up its damage long enough that it doesn't matter for the level of content we have to attempt.

Basically... The damage cap has just been lowered a bit compared to before. It still has one, and we just never go that high unless we're really bored.

[(PSN)Mr-Wookie_]

17 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There is one mechanic left in the game that scales, but cannot be done with only one version of the frame in the squad, and that's the bouncing of Equinox's 4 back and forth between two of them.

Beyond that, nothing actually scales, as it were, the literal best we can manage is to keep up its damage long enough that it doesn't matter for the level of content we have to attempt.

Basically... The damage cap has just been lowered a bit compared to before. It still has one, and we just never go that high unless we're really bored.

Well, Garuda is still a thing. Revenant too.

Edited March 27, 2020 by (PS4)Mr-Wookie_

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Mr-Wookie_ said:

Well, Garuda is still a thing. Revenant too.

Direct damage, augmented, still isn't exponential scaling ^^ Don't get me wrong, there are powerful functions here, but the classification of these is direct boosts to already capped damage. All you're doing is extending the cap to that damage beyond the point where players would normally go.

I'm not belittling the power of these functions, just had a bit of an issue with the terminology.

[(PSN)Mr-Wookie_]

23 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Direct damage, augmented, still isn't exponential scaling ^^ Don't get me wrong, there are powerful functions here, but the classification of these is direct boosts to already capped damage. All you're doing is extending the cap to that damage beyond the point where players would normally go.

I'm not belittling the power of these functions, just had a bit of an issue with the terminology.

Wait, so how do Garuda and Revenant not have scaling damage? They can deal true damage which scales with enemy health, so you’re not boosting capped damage. Isn’t that the definition of scaling damage? You could theoretically go to level 9999 with them.

Edit: So I assume what were trying to say is that Garuda and Revenant don’t have exponentially scaling damage, but until recently they did have exponentially scaling damage. Because enemy health scaled exponentially and G&R’s scaled with the enemy’s health, so technically that’s exponentially scaling damage.

Edited March 28, 2020 by (PS4)Mr-Wookie_

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mr-Wookie_ said:

Wait, so how do Garuda and Revenant not have scaling damage? They can deal true damage which scales with enemy health, so you’re not boosting capped damage

True damage isn't scaling damage? True damage is not based on a percent or any kind of multiplicative nature, it's based on raw, capped numbers. You proc a Bleed from Garuda's 4 that deals 200 damage per tick it will kill an enemy that has only 1400 damage, but that same bleed on an enemy that has actually scaled up to 200,000 Health before armour, your bleed will still only proc for 200 damage and tick for a max of 1400 damage over time.

Applying multiple Bleeds over time is, as we've seen, a fantastic way to take down enemies quickly. But that's still not scaling damage.

You are, in fact, just boosting capped damage. You can only deal a maximum amount of damage with any given weapon, all Garuda's 4 does is allow that to reliably convert to a Bleed tick of True Damage. There's no actual scaling there at all, just better application for that capped damage, and it will eventually not kill enemies anywhere near as fast and may even not kill them at all before they kill you.

That point is very, very high with the right setup and weapons, but it's still a cap.

Revenant is not even close to that, his damage is just adaptive, it shifts to provide the best bonus against the enemy type it's hitting, but that's literally just boosted base damage and has no functional scaling at all. It's high damage, but it's capped damage.

So what I'm saying is that they never had scaling damage at all, not exponential or otherwise. This does not mean that they are not effective, these functions allow the Frame or the Team to run to higher level (or scale up their effectiveness to a higher level), but true Scaling of any kind is very specific in this game.

Here, like these:

Saryn, for example, has scaling damage. She casts her 1, and it will tick on that enemy until it kills that enemy. The damage will only increase over time, going up every single tick, and can (if used correctly) be infinite damage. That is a scaling function. There will never be a point where Saryn's damage from her 1 actually caps out.

Similarly, you can bounce the slash damage back and fourth between two Equinox 4th abilities until the damage numbers stop being numbers and become mathematical equations on screen. That is a scaling function.

Octavia's 1 has scaling, it will always deal back a multiplied amount of the damage dealt to it. Since enemy damage increases over time, and it always returns that damage multiplied, then as long as an enemy damages Mallet it will deal up to infinite damage in response. That's a scaling function.

These are very different from the way that frames like Garuda function.

[(PSN)Mr-Wookie_]

12 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

So you have no idea how Garuda’s 4 interacts with her 1 and how revenant with enough power strength can instakill any enemy under the effect of his 1 with his 3? These abilities are literally scaling damage. I’m surprised you don’t know these things as a veteran.

Also Saryn’s 1 does cap out.

Edited March 28, 2020 by (PS4)Mr-Wookie_

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mr-Wookie_ said:

So you have no idea how Garuda’s 4 interacts with her 1

It interacts by making the slash proc from that damage guaranteed. Your energy to charge the ball caps, no matter what, meaning that the damage from the ball caps, meaning that the Slash Proc is capped.

It's huge, but it's not scaling.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mr-Wookie_ said:

how revenant with enough power strength can instakill any enemy under the effect of his 1 with his 3?

Please show me that build, I was genuinely unaware of that before. I'd like to test it.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mr-Wookie_ said:

Also Saryn’s 1 does cap out.

At what point does it stop dealing consistent damage per tick and increasing its damage per tick? If there is a cap on the increasing damage, I have not found it with any testing.

But still, dude, why are you arguing this like it's a personal insult that I've said that these frames aren't scaling? Nothing I've said means they aren't powerful frames, they allow for much higher levels of play than normal, or even practical players would ever go to. It's the specifics of the word 'scaling' are why I started the line of comments, not trying to downplay the power of the frames.

[Krenlik]

18 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

True damage isn't scaling damage? True damage is not based on a percent or any kind of multiplicative nature, it's based on raw, capped numbers. You proc a Bleed from Garuda's 4 that deals 200 damage per tick it will kill an enemy that has only 1400 damage, but that same bleed on an enemy that has actually scaled up to 200,000 Health before armour, your bleed will still only proc for 200 damage and tick for a max of 1400 damage over time.

..

Octavia's 1 has scaling, it will always deal back a multiplied amount of the damage dealt to it. Since enemy damage increases over time, and it always returns that damage multiplied, then as long as an enemy damages Mallet it will deal up to infinite damage in response. That's a scaling function.

These are very different from the way that frames like Garuda function.

 

Garuda has that too.  If you have the shield up, then damage accumulates that you can throw back at them.  The more damage they do, the faster/higher that number goes.  It scales with the enemy.. it scales more slowly than Octavia, but it does scale.  Instead of using it for trash, I tend to hold it for the really ugly stuff and it generally one-shots things.

Also, the leap that accompanies the shield flat out kills anything with 40% or lower health... that's scaling also, just can't use it immediately and have to be paying attention not merely just pressing buttons.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Krenlik