Please stop adding entirely new gameplay systems for a couple years and just fix the core

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

On this I disagree. The community has a pretty good idea of the big picture when it isn't trying to focus on something that was already happening. DE has been slowing down content to work on revisions and polish. Its not DE's fault that it isn't going to result in the same polish or the revisions for each person. While content is much easier to see and count. A new Tennogen not content, hek even Old Blood and Railjack have limited content and what came out since Fortuna before? A revision of Jupiter not content. Your statements here lack solid ground.

Are you saying that those things aren't content, or that other people are claiming that they're not content? The Gas City tileset rework dropped in a set with Wisp, the Roplalolyst, and the first Disruption node, and the Ropalolyst is a part of the main quest storyline. Like, the "content" vs. "not content" argument is genuinely meaningless anyway, but Jovian Concord was absolutely "new content" in every possible sense. 

But yeah, no, I don't think "the community" knows what it wants 99% of the time, and that's with the understanding that I really mean that the individuals who make up the community, who only agree with each other under influence from watching the same Partner channels, do not as individuals know what they each want, before even beginning to ask whether they're right. Which is fine, I just wish that when DE ignored the forums and did their own thing it looked less like Railjack and more like Revised, and that when they listened to community sentiment it looked absolutely nothing at all like the recent Khora nonsense. 

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

This is a good point I hadn't considered -  the Gas City rework, like Revised, was another effort to go back and do the less glamorous fixing and fussing and improving the basic gameplay. Disruption is new "content" but kinda is a part of that scheme too - changing something on the star map instead of adding some other new thing on top. And we got the melee changes dribbled out over a long period to finally hit with the bulk of the changes shipping with the Old Blood. 

It honestly just makes it more baffling to me though. The Gas City rework was successfully pitched as new content because it came with a new game mode and a new frame (coincidentally one of the best new frames we've got in quite some time.) I kinda feel like they could be doing that across the board and fixing problems, rather than giving us new ones with liches and Railjack and so on, while still giving them something to sell. 

I second this, and generally I think the Jovian Concord is a prime example that reworking old content can in fact work as new content for players. Rediscovering a familiar tileset was in fact a new experience, to say nothing of the new game mode, Spy vaults, secrets, etc. A similar phenomenon happened with Specters of the Rail which, while a much shakier update overall, nonetheless redid the entire Star Chart and made so many adjustments that it came across as new content. Even much smaller-scale updates like the Nezha and Wukong reworks were received as new content, and to massive success as well. This is why I feel there's currently a false dichotomy when pitting content drought versus the need to rework old content, because updates that revitalize old content can not only do both, but often do a more successful job than the updates that add completely new stuff (The Jovian Concord brought a lasting increase in player count, for example, whereas The Old Blood and Empyrean were so poorly-received that Warframe's player count decreased overall).

Looking at these sorts of conversations on the forums and on Reddit, I see a lot of people playing devil's advocate and claiming that others would scream "content drought" if DE ever got to reworking old content, yet despite looking through those spaces, I've yet to see those mysterious others who clamored that Warframe wasn't producing enough new stuff in the middle of updates that meaningfully improved older content. As such, I feel like that concern is more manufactured than anything, and a reflection of DE's own obsession with constantly outdoing themselves and releasing something radically new, rather than the reverse.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Are you saying that those things aren't content, or that other people are claiming that they're not content? The Gas City tileset rework dropped in a set with Wisp, the Roplalolyst, and the first Disruption node, and the Ropalolyst is a part of the main quest storyline. Like, the "content" vs. "not content" argument is genuinely meaningless anyway, but Jovian Concord was absolutely "new content" in every possible sense. 

But yeah, no, I don't think "the community" knows what it wants 99% of the time, and that's with the understanding that I really mean that the individuals who make up the community, who only agree with each other under influence from watching the same Partner channels, do not as individuals know what they each want, before even beginning to ask whether they're right. Which is fine, I just wish that when DE ignored the forums and did their own thing it looked less like Railjack and more like Revised, and that when they listened to community sentiment it looked absolutely nothing at all like the recent Khora nonsense. 

I claim it under the rework category, and while a warframe is content; its not a delaying something for the dearth of stuff. I don't consider the Ropalyst content no and Disruption is a modification to existing Survival/Excavation modes but is a rework not content. I find that often enough; whether someone like myself, or someone that finds that the 2 years of almost entirely rework and tweak updates, pushing what content more into fewer "islands" as folk like to call them, that either knows what is happening and stays informed about it. That said, folk can ignore what is there, forest for the trees and all that. The thread is about needing more reworks and tweaks, its what we have been getting. Want the constant content updates? Go back a ways.

[CopperBezel]

Okay, if a new game mode isn't "new content" because it's still a variation of the same game and the Ropalolyst isn't new content despite having quest narrative content, then I definitely think it's a useless definition of "new content" and I could be perfectly happy with Warframe never receiving any new content. Like, I'm actually surprised that a new frame would qualify for you under that rubric.

Under sensible definitions, JC was a content drop, and a good one. But I really deeply don't care about the semantic game, because JC was new stuff to do combined with general improvements, and made the game a little bit bigger while making it a little bit better besides. 

(And it's not that I'd never want to see Warframe take any risks, because I think PoE, even if the parts having to do with actual Eidolons are mostly garbo, eventually fit into the rest of the game and paid off to some extent. But adding an open world area to a game that was a series of dungeons was also always a much safer bet than throwing spaceship combat at it.)

Edited April 16, 2020 by CopperBezel

[TheHystericalManiac]

Yea, if only DE would take some time to look over the many forgotten systems and tried to fixed them, taking a break from substantial amounts of new content. In fact, they could help alleviate the issue of unsustainable content by making past content more rewarding and perhaps scaling with waves/time, giving more incentive to players to do longer runs and therefore be more engaged with the gameplay and loadout aspects of the game (this is what makes the game unique and it is therefore what will be retaining players). They could even get the art team to pump out more skins at the same time. Of course, thats a one-sided view of it, but I think its at least partially doable? (a little is better than nothing, you gotta start somewhere)

 

If someone at DE is reading this, this is my message to you:

 The ludicrous amounts of content creator coverage on this specific issue should be a clear indicator of what you really should be doing. When literally all the content creators are complaining, it would certainly be a great idea to listen to it and be more vocal/transparent about your thoughts and stances as a company and as game developers. We aren't trying to hate on you (not the ones who are seriously invested in the cause anyways), we are just frustrated at the lack of change. We do love this game, and we would like to keep playing this game if only you would keep it playable.

I fell in love with this game because of the amazingly helpful and nice community. Also because of the devs, who for once, seemed to be honest, transparent, and great human beings in general - something that is often lacking in game studios at this day and age. Play with your strengths, don't fight against them, and I hope for you, and this community as a whole, that you do listen.

I still think you're great devs. But with good reputation, comes higher expectations. Be better than the rest of the industry.

Stay safe DE, and all the Tenno reading this

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Okay, if a new game mode isn't "new content" because it's still a variation of the same game and the Ropalolyst isn't new content despite having quest narrative content, then I definitely think it's a useless definition of "new content" and I could be perfectly happy with Warframe never receiving any new content. Like, I'm actually surprised that a new frame would qualify for you under that rubric.

Under sensible definitions, JC was a content drop, and a good one. But I really deeply don't care about the semantic game, because JC was new stuff to do combined with general improvements, and made the game a little bit bigger while making it a little bit better besides. 

(And it's not that I'd never want to see Warframe take any risks, because I think PoE, even if the parts having to do with actual Eidolons are mostly garbo, eventually fit into the rest of the game and paid off to some extent. But adding an open world area to a game that was a series of dungeons was also always a much safer bet than throwing spaceship combat at it.)

Sensible definitions, I wouldn't say that. Chains of Harrow is essentially the same situation; and much like Jovian Concord, it was a warframe introduced alongside with a visual rework and tweaks of an existing mission setting and tweaks to existing missions. What it would be considered, being a warframe and its connected cosmetics and gear, would be a content drip. It is content, its just not a content update, it was a graphics tweak and a tweaking of endless.

Lets look at this logically without falling into a logical fallacy; analogies are fun. Lets say we go to a restaurant, there we can get a full meal every week. The problem is that while the employees are staying busy, lately there haven't been any new meals. As time has gone on, my meal has been changed around, tweaked to be smaller or more expensive, maybe less but eventually what was a meal is now just a sandwich. Since that is what the restaurant is giving me for the same money; but in the meantime they have changed up the presentation, the decorations for the building and improved the show of stats for the food while paying to have better service from the employees. Now, when I go in, I have what was before, if it hasn't been tweaked and replaced with restyled offerings or made more expensive, but I am not getting a new meal since its not what time has been put into.

What Jovian Concord was was improvements and tweaks, I don't think anyone can really argue with that honestly but I wouldn't say it was a content update.

[Duality52]

8 minutes ago, Urlan said:

What Jovian Concord was was improvements and tweaks

I know it's forgetable, but the Saint of Altra is also a decently good mainline since:

• Disruption got expanded (Corpus Outpost in Neptune, Kuva Fortress, Lua, Mars, and a Grineer Galleon in Sedna).
• Gauss is neck-and-neck with Wisp as being favorably good with the community, though it did take a month until Atlas Prime to give him the much needed tweaks.
• Leverian
• Look/Mod Link

I understand the Saint of Altra have issues such as no improvements to Disruption rotation rewards and Gauss having some issues on launch, but it along with the Jovian Concord remain as the only good mainlines of 2019.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I feel there's currently a false dichotomy when pitting content drought versus the need to rework old content, because updates that revitalize old content can not only do both, but often do a more successful job than the updates that add completely new stuff (The Jovian Concord brought a lasting increase in player count, for example, whereas The Old Blood and Empyrean were so poorly-received that Warframe's player count decreased overall).

I agree wholeheartedly. I've long been of the opinion that Warframe has more than enough content. It's just that a lot of it is old, broken, pointless and deprecated. Updating old content not only gives us legitimate new content (it IS new, even if it superficially resembles the old), but it also affects a wealth of preexisting activities. The Jovian Concord was an absolutely MASSIVE update relative to what it actually released. We got a new tileset, but that tileset affected A TON of missions and mission types. New Spy Vaults, new Sabotage mission, new Rescue mission, brand new Disruption game mode. Then you have the likes of Nightmare missions, Invasions, Void Fissures and Kuva Siphons - all of those could take place on Jupiter, so the people who like those got a new location to do them in. Sorties and Arbitrations also take place there, giving a bit of extra variety to those old modes. There's even a new Index map on the new Jupiter. And, when we finally got Kuva Liches (regardless of their sorry state on release), they too could show up on Jupiter. DE's tendency to design "content islands" is fairly recent, from what I can tell. A LOT of old content is heavily interconnected. Redesigning/improving/updating old content tends to have a long tail, affecting a majority of the rest of the game, to some degree.

And then there are the likes of Warframe redesigns, major balance changes, etc. I personally absolutely hated Wukong when I first got him. I found his design severely underwhelming. After the changes, he's now one of my favourites. I got myself a Wukong Prime, I put a bunch of Forma on him, I've played through a fair bit of content with him. He's fun. Recently, I got myself a Corinth Prime. I get that not everyone likes it, but I LOVED the original Corinth and adore the Prime. That weapon alone has gotten me playing more and more often, simply because I enjoy doing missions with it.

Updating old things counts for "content" just as much as adding new things. It often counts for more, simply due to how interconnected old content is and how wide an effect even small changes can have. I absolutely cannot wait for the Corpus Ship redesign, because that tileset accounts for something like a quarter of the Star Chart.

[Urlan]

45 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

I know it's forgetable, but the Saint of Altra is also a decently good mainline since:

• Disruption got expanded (Corpus Outpost in Neptune, Kuva Fortress, Lua, Mars, and a Grineer Galleon in Sedna).
• Gauss is neck-and-neck with Wisp as being favorably good with the community, though it did take a month until Atlas Prime to give him the much needed tweaks.
• Leverian
• Look/Mod Link

I understand the Saint of Altra have issues such as no improvements to Disruption rotation rewards and Gauss having some issues on launch, but it along with the Jovian Concord remain as the only good mainlines of 2019.

I liked those tweaks and revisions myself; particularly the Look and Mod link; and while I wasn't as much a fan of Wisp and Gauss personally due to a lack of theme meshing with lore and name; they are fine warframe options. Gauss was the content there; and you could argue easily the Lua Lens for players that didn't already have their focus maxed, at least until there is a focus expansion to justify folk farming it more. If you look at the extension to Disruption for Sedna and Uranus; it doesn't really offer anything worth doing besides Gauss and and his weapon blueprints respectively. While Neptune gives some different opportunities for credit acquisition at a slower rate than running Index or quick arbitration and Dark Sectors. And Mars offers another manner for getting low level relics. They are a good change of decoration, but don't really offer anything new; though perhaps with some thought put into developing rewards and reasons to have those rewards; it could in time.

[(PSN)ImTheOx]

With railjack added, warframe needs no more new game mechanics. 

 

I agree, fix what we have. With fix i mean, glitches, bugs and graphicaly improvements to older maps. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Under sensible definitions, JC was a content drop, and a good one.

Content yes. I'm inclined to disagree on it being necessarily 'good', though.

Vapos enemies are another example of one of DE's consistently repeated issues - "Throw bigger numbers here for the vets to fight during its introduction and/or associated event", which then becomes a permanent inconsistency in terms of the game surrounding them.
Why do these level 15-20 enemies have so much more dangerous bells and whistles, or so much stronger baseline guns/protections, than the level 35-40s we get 4 planets down the line?
Why does the player fight notably superior Drekar Grineer and mildly/situationally superior Frontier Grineer on Earth before encountering their basic forms?
Let's not even get started on the Vallis corpus, which have been grossly overtuned since launch.

We, as veterans, mostly won't recognise the difference, especially at-level. But when the levels are equalised for an external reason - Lich nodes on Jupiter versus Pluto for example - even we might notice the scratches on our paintwork are deeper for these fairly early-set variant enemies.
I feel for the new players when they encounter these wildly inconsistent and unexplained spikes in opposition though.

 

Disruption is also mediocre at best. The reward structure in isolation is very appealing, but Demolysts/Demolishers are a slapdash "lol nope" design that removes most viable strategies and boils it down to a sad DPS check. Most of this is because blanket Nullification fields are the most binary and terrible thing DE refuse to stop abusing, but there's also other issues making it worse.
Prime among them was that one of their 'genius' ideas for a Demolyst was a unit that heals itself alarmingly fast to full and then becomes even more completely lol-nope to any efforts at slowing it down. That Moa is a trainwreck.
Unexplained super-shielding that took simulacrum tests to understand (no status, no health damage while any shield exists) and regenerated too readily for its effects, pushing people into 100% Shield Disruption squads for higher scaling runs. I'm not even sure if this all still applies since the Hostile Mergers event, but it was a real pain for shoving endurance (legitimately).
General Diminishing Return scaling across the game having a far-too-punishing floor of 90%, rendering most abilities not outlast their own casting animation (and Nullification forcing this diminishment sooner than it otherwise should).

It also scales atrociously down from squad play to solo - you can't multi-task more than one Conduit unless low level or super-lucky; you can't find the Demolyst promptly because you are but one person and there are 4+ directions it might be approaching from, therefore limiting your DPS race time.

Edited April 16, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[LuckyCharm]

My main issue with tacking on all these needless extensions to the game is less that they launch broken and need fixing but more that they lauch without any tutorial or reasonable explanation IN GAME to actually know what the heck to actually do with them. Sure its all good for me cus I get to learn and experience it when the patch notes are fresh but can you imagine being a new player and having to try and learn say.. What it is exactly that syndicates are? Or how to farm kuva liches, or how to do infested salvage etc? We dont even have explanations of what the damage types do there in our arsenal.